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kennel cough or congestive heart failure?

Posted By: MaxaLisa

kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 08:37 AM

That was the question when I took Indy to the vet tonight.

She's been sick, thick drool hanging from her mouth, eyes look awfully funny, weak in the limbs, often knuckling in the front. I never heard of all of those symptoms with the doggie flu or KC, so off to the vet.

Luckily, xrays are still clear, so although her heart is all messed up, she is thankfully not yet in early congestive heart failure. Electrolytes are also all good.

I am wishing now that I would have bought that webmaster for her when I was looking at it.

Anyways, for those that have been through KC, a few questions...

Did you see any eye problems? Did it make them weak with difficulty standing (this part worries me)? Were there long stretches of silence, and only coughing with motion or aggrevation or eating?

Those of you that have fought this, any favorite ways to help them through this? I have a favorite supplement when I get a cold - she seems to not want to take any pills.

I really hope Max doesn't get this...
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 09:03 AM

Sorry I have nothing to offer but my best positive healing thoughts for Indy hugging I hope to hear a good update crossedfingers
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 09:35 AM

Thank you bianca, she's so sick she can barely stand, whatever it is frown

I just gave her a dinner of whey, glutamine and probiotics mixed in apple juice - I hope that she can tolerate that without gagging/coughing. Forgot to mention that she is gagging up pools of clear, thick, slimey saliva. No temp.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 09:38 AM

So what did the vet think is causing this?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 09:55 AM

Her guess was actually kennel cough. But it doesn't seem to explain enough of the pieces to me. I'm hoping folks who've been through this can tell me if all these symptoms sound reasonable for kennel cough. I would be happy to know that this will resolve with supportive care.

She's insisting on sleeping on her favorite spot on the stairs, silly girl, it really isn't safe for her now unless I am here to help her. Poor Max, he wants his walk.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:54 AM

Just found this,

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/121619.htm

I am sure you will have already researched it, but from everything I have just been looking at, most dogs do not have other symptoms apart from cough and maybe gagging, vomiting frown ?? hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 12:03 PM

Thank you bianca, I hadn't done too much googling yet....this sure doesn't sound like kennel cough. This sounds neurological. She just tried to pee outside and all her legs collapsed.

I was able to stop one of her fits by using my red light acupuncture thingee on her neck. I don't know if that was a coincidence or not. She's sleeping pretty peacefully for the moment.

I'd like to get into the chiro, don't know if I should use one of the backups, which may mean getting in tomorrow, or her longterm vet, but if I can get it, I'll still have to wait until Tues, though she may be booked.

I guess we see how the rest of the night goes.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 12:18 PM

Oh no frown I am pleased she is sleeping restfully now though. I hope somebody comes on soon that can offer some advice/suggestions. hugging
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 02:19 PM

Lida,

Is there any chance she got into something that could be poisoning her? If so, that might cause the neurological issues you are seeing.

Is there a tox screen the vet can do?

Ge hugging t better, sweet Indy.
Posted By: LifeAsMe

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 02:52 PM

Oh Lisa. I don't have anything to offer but a hugging
Posted By: Schnickle Fritz

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 03:37 PM

i am sorry that yu are going through this. i hate to say it, it doesnt sound like kennel cough
Posted By: TMarie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 03:52 PM

Oh Lisa,
Here you have been holding my hand just about with all I have been going through with my crew, and then this happens with Indy. I am so sorry, poor Indy.

Could it be Vestibular? Not sure about the coughing and gagging, but the other symptoms are similar to Vestibular too.

I hope she gets better soon. Hugs.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 04:05 PM

Eye rolling is a symptom and vomiting can be too.

http://www.vara.org/VestibularSyndrome.htm
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 04:16 PM

Oh my gosh - how is she doing now? That does not sound like KC to me - I've had some fosters with it, and a couple of times my dogs have gotten it with them, but I stopped fostering when Kramer and Nina got older because I had heard it can be quite rough for seniors. If you have to can you get to an ER like Davis?

http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_infectious_tracheobronchitis_canine.shtml
http://oregonvma.org/files/Sykes-Canine-Infectious-Respiratory-Disease.pdf
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 04:32 PM

Just thinking aloud here-- chest Xrays came back with lungs clear? My last senior presented this way about a week almost after having surgery. It turned out to be "walking pneumonia"-- same stagger-y, knuckling over symptoms, occasional coughing but not constant. And, it happened "all at once"-- meaning, he had had it since a few days but it was not noticable. No temp, initially no coughing, and only later were xrays showing fluid. If I had known and started the abx sooner, it would have been better. Any chance at all that it could be pneumonia? Sending positive thoughts and vibes for your sweet Indy. How is she now?
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 04:40 PM

Poor Indy. frown I'm so sorry, Lisa. I don't know much about KC but, from what others have posted, it seems like something else to me too. Sending *HUGS* your way and pets for Indy. I'll see if Ris can send some of her extra energy to help Indy out. wink
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 04:41 PM

Lisa I am thinking about you and Indy. I never had a dog with KC. I knew whose dog was on Lasix (fixed spelling) for congestive heart problems. I know he was on it for over a year plus when he had problems breathing she would give him oxygen.

Sending good vibes for you and Indy.

Added a link on Lasix for human, but I know my friend had her dog on it for a long time. http://www.drugs.com/lasix.html
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 04:55 PM

Lisa, since the KC info on the net mentions foamy vomit, and also swollen tonsils, can it be that the tonsils swell enough that she isn't getting enough air? (the staggering, knuckling over/weakness) The air hunger is what caused the stagger-y weakness and inability to walk when my Chell had pneumonia. May this be a case of kennel cough with lots of tonsil involvement? Unsure why her eyes would have symptoms. Is it glassy stare or discharge from her eyes? More positive thoughts flowing out for Indy!
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 05:14 PM

Poor Indy. frown Lisa, I am thinking of you both. Sorry I have nothing to offer you in your time of need when you have always been such a great help to all of us. I hope that someone is able to shed a little light on this and that sweet Indy recovers quickly. hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 06:05 PM

Found a link with some good info. What tests to have done, what drugs are effective

http://www.2ndchance.info/heart.htm

Also check the 4 links near the top of the page.
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 07:06 PM

I'm so sorry to hear about Indy's problems, Lisa. You're always so helpful to everyone when we need it. We're all here for you right now and are hoping and praying that this is something minor that will be figured out soon and that Indy recovers soon from this. hugging
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 07:09 PM

Oh no!!!!!! Poor, sweet Indy. It does not sound like KC but walking pneumonia is a good thought...

Can you steam her in the bathroom to help with the congestion?

I really hope you are able to figure out what's going on and get her some relief. I did have luck with this mixed homeopathic remedy for dog who had a cold: http://www.homeopet.com/noserelief.html
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 07:10 PM

Thank you Jean and Val for the links. We didn't get to sleep until about 4:30, so just getting up now and assessing the situation.

She's sleeping so soundly that I haven't moved her. She slept soundly all through the night, except when she tried to move one time, her legs still collapsing. After that when she was laying down again, there was more drooly stuff from her mouth and she gagged up a tiny amount of stuff. Other than that, she appears restful.

The heart disease does not appear to be implicated - lungs sounded clear with stethoscope and xrays were very clear, and also did not show the type of enlargement that they would have if she were in CHF. Also, she is not panting at all, her respitory rate is low, as is her heart rate.

KC - it appears that this highly unlikely. I might have gone with that "air hunger" stumbly thing, but I don't think she would have been so restful if this were KC.

I thought about poisoning too, and was very concerned about that until about now. Seems less likely - seems like the nasuea and drool is associated with movement.

Can Vestibular Syndrome be this bad???

Thank you so much for all your well wishes. It's so upsetting when they are sick, and kinda scary with these mystery diseases.

Surprise, but thinking about getting her into the chiro asap, which is hard to schedule.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 07:12 PM

Do they always have nose issues with KC? Indy's is completely clear, no drips.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 07:24 PM

Yes, vestibular disease can be that bad. Will a medium webmaster harness fit Indy? Steel outgrew it. I can send it express mail tomorrow morning.

Vets do miss it in the early stages.
Posted By: proudshepmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 07:31 PM

Poor Indy! Thinking of your family. I hope she feels better really soon. I would be terrified if this were happening to my dog so I can't imagine how you must be feeling frown
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 08:50 PM

Thank you proudshepmom, I'm VERY concerned and worried.

Joanne, thank you so much for your gracious offer! It looks like Indy needs a small, so I just ordered her one from arcatapet - it will ship tomorrow, and they send 2 day mail. Still won't be here soon enough, but just in case I still need it, and good to have here in either case.

She is not gagging or hypersalivating unless moving, or I think if there is food in her stomach. I have four top contenders at this point:

-- an adjustment issue that a chiro can help with (appt at 4:20 today). Is it ironic that my left atlas on my neck is hurting like heck today??

-- toxicity of some sort, possibly drug induced or otherwise

-- stroke?

-- tumor frown

I am hoping that the chiro thing might be the most likely - she had an adjustment recently, and when she sits in the car on the way home with Max, she often contorts herself in weird ways, and it could have moved something in the wrong way. I used to take them separately, might have to again if this afternoon fixes this.

Think horses, not zebras, will be my mantra today.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 08:58 PM

Just reading this on Vestibular Syndrome:
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_vestibular_disease.html

Didn't know it could be caused by Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.....
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Eye rolling is a symptom and vomiting can be too.

http://www.vara.org/VestibularSyndrome.htm


No eye rolling or head tilt (eye tilt though)....

The link above mentions inflammation of the nerves. Has anyone used an anti-inflammatory to treat Vestibular syndrome?
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 09:36 PM

Oh dear, I am so sorry you and Indy are dealing with this! Sending healing vibes.

My dog is about the same age as Indy and was dxed with congestive heart failure a year ago. I mention this because his lungs still look clear on xrays. But he has a significant murmur that is getting worse and worse and they did a heart ultrasound to dx it. His only symptoms so far (and they say it is 'moderate' chf) are coughing (especially on exertion) and gagging a little like he is going to puke but he doesn't. And he is super tired from short walks or 5 minutes of fetching.

Anyway that is just one experience with congestive heart failure... if she has had an u/s of the heart or a murmur it could be at least part of the problem.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:04 PM

thank you Shawn, I guess that puts the heart issue back on the table. She has had the heart ultrasound for her dx, but UC Davis said that they will monitor her for CHF via xrays. I guess it makes sense that she can progress into the next phase without showing on her xrays. I'm sorry to hear about your boy.

She salivated a lot while eating breakfast and walking in the yard, gagged some, but now at rest is peaceful (with a bit of drool wub ) she appears able to swallow a lot of the drool, but I wonder if she throws it up because she can't digest it.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:29 PM

From what I read, vestibular can have similar symptoms to a stroke. I am sending Indy all my positive thoughts and I will keep the horse image in my mind today hugging
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:37 PM

What's an "eye tilt"?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:48 PM

Thank you bianca, we both appreciate it!

LOL, Joanne, good catch, I'm not sure if it's really a tilt, but they are opening differently than usually, and different than each other. One appears dry, and the other seems like it keeps tearing. She will act like she is blind and not be able to see anything, but I noticed last night, that she was watching all the right things. I think it hurts her to see.
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:59 PM

Poor Indy! I hope she feels better soon, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the chiro helps.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 10:59 PM

The eye thing sounds like vestibular disease. I wonder if she'd be less drooly if you covered the teary eye?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 11:05 PM

I hope so too Lin!

Joanne, should I make a little doggie eye patch rofl I'm not sure I would be able to test that out!
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 11:13 PM

Yeah, Indy probably wouldn't be too appreciative of an eye patch! An early Halloween costume!
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 11:13 PM

Checking in on Miss Indy. Will you ring your regular vet or go directly to the chiro, do you think? I hate when it's real symptoms but the cause is too vague to discern. Hoping that your vet and chiro have ideas, and a treatment plan to help Indy. My first dog had a stroke, and while each is unique, this doesn't sound like a stroke at all. I am so hoping that the symptoms ring a diagnostic bell for your vet, so that Indy can be on her way to feeling and doing well again soon. So glad you have a chiro for her, too!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/26/10 11:19 PM

Patti, I'm glad to hear that this doesn't sound like the stroke that your dog had (I'm sorry for your first dog!), since I'm hoping this is something that can be made better.

I have a choice of three chiros, two of them are just chiros. The one I'm seeing today is also a vet, which I think is an advantage in this! I am going to talk to her about meclizine, I think. My mom takes it, and doesn't react to it - she and Indy are very similar in their sensitivities. Mom always jokes that I saved her life with Indy's diet, way back when laugh

She has such a hard time just getting up to change position to lay down, terrible to watch frown
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 01:03 AM

I'm so sorry, this must be awful for you to watch for your dear Indy! hugging Will you be able possibly to get her in to the chiro who is also a vet? The difficulty standing and walking threw off what I had been thinking-- spider bite. A friend's Golden had the drooling, vomiting slime, even caughing because of the location of the bite (back far in the Golden's throat). Whatever Indy really has going on right now, I am so hoping that the chiro-vet will have ideas for diagnosis. Joanne mentioned that she has the webmaster sling/harness if Indy needs it. How much control has Indy got when you assist-walk her to go potty? REALLY wishing a soon diagnosis and solution for Miss Indy. Please keep updating. Positive thoughts and vibes beaming out to Indy right now!
Posted By: Woodreb

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 01:30 AM

I don't have anything else to add, but I hope you can get a handle on what is wrong and she gets better soon. hug
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:06 AM

Any news?
Posted By: SLEACHY

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:10 AM

Lisa, I am so sorry your Indy is going thru a tough time! It's certainly not easy to watch our friends suffer. I HATE illnesses that we can't put our finger on!

Both my mother and I suffer from vertigo. When she has an "attack", she gags and vomits. I fight the barf but I cannot walk or even stand when I have an attack.

Jean posted a link on Toozer's thread about vestibular disease. How old is Indy now?
Posted By: SunCzarina

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:23 AM

Lisa, I'm sorry Indy is going through this.

When Luther had kennel cough, Morgan was her usual mother hen self with him and she never caught it. Other than the not wanting to get up and seeming dazed, Indy's symptoms aren't what Luth's were.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:31 AM

Just checking in...
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:38 AM

Sleachy, VERY interesting about the vertigo. Indy is just over 13 years old now.

The chiro vet had an emergency C-section, so our appt was delayed a bit, just got back and settled. Before the appt, the vet from last night sent me the official reading from the radiologist of the xrays from last night - "Lungs are completely normal, as well as the abdominal organs and spine. Indy's heart is a little enlarged, which we already knew. The only thing they noted was that the esophagus was mildly dilated, which can be a clue that there is something going on there, although with the history of coughing and gagging, this may be a sequelae to that." That all sounds like a good thing.

At the appointment today, the vet said that this is not Vestibular Syndrome. I think it's a given that it's not kennel cough, we never even mentioned it at this appointment.

She did adjust Indy's neck and a couple of other spots. The left atlas was over-rotated, which could cause some symptoms, though this vet has never seen a reaction like Indy's to such a thing. Whatever this is, it is quite serious.

We discussed the possibility that it's a reaction to her heart meds, which made her very stumbly when she first started them, but this would be one of those one in a million cases. But then again, this is Indy.

She said that if there aren't signs of improvement by tonight, or definitely by tomorrow night, then I need to "prioritize this". I understood what she meant by that.

If things aren't better, or if they take a turn for the worse, off to the ER at UC Davis. I have a copy of her xrays from yesterday in case I have to do this. I guess I should get a bag of stuff together in case I need to do that in a hurry, and get driving instructions.

Indy was given a shot of Cerrenia to combat the nausea, and a shot of essentially pepcid to protect her stomach from the accumulation of mucous. She has a script for both for the next week. The Cerrenia was amazing - started working by the time that the techs left the room.

Now we wait and watch. I will continue with the nausea/anti-acid meds, I am going to cut back on her heart meds, and I'm supposed to give doxy to make sure that if she aspirates into her, she doesn't get an infection, which would be very bad for her and her heart condition. I'm worried about the doxy, it's an mdr1 drug, but not supposed to have an affect, but I'm just not sure.

She commented that Indy has been in some pretty bad spots before. That Indy has circled that drain before, but always pops out of the orbit and recovers. She said that she is more hopeful with Indy than any other dog in this situation because of this, that she's one strong dog. After she and the techs left the room, this just made me cry. And also on the way home. And now too teary

She is resting easily now, and now I have to get a weekend's worth of work done in whatever hours of the day I have left crazy Please send some healing thoughts for my very best girl wub
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:43 AM

Crying right along with you. Indy is most definitely a tough little girl! Sending lots of healing thoughts your way.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:57 AM

Thank you Joanne.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:59 AM

Lisa sending you some strength vibes to help you and for Indy Girl I am sending her the best of best healing vibes I can conjure up.

Cerrenia is some pretty good stuff.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:02 AM

Lisa, crying here also. Such a tough, bounce-back girl. May this be another bounceback comeback recovery. Lots of healing thoughts for your special superstar girl, and comforting vibes sent your way. Wishing you strength!
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:07 AM

frown Worry worry worry. I am glad she's a tough girl. Picturing Indy as Audrey Hepburn steely eyed and standing up to whatever this is.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_myasthenia_gravis.html

Maybe something like that?

Here's Davis's emergency info: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/small_animal/ermedicine_icu/default.cfm

Thanks for letting us know.

PS - Mario says yes, Cerenia is the best.
Posted By: AgilePaws

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:39 AM

Sending healing thoughts to Indy and hugs to you. hugging
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:55 AM

I can't imagine how worried you must be about poor Indy. Ris and I will send healing thoughts your way and hope things improve overnight.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 04:11 AM

Thank you everyone!

Jean, I put the info re:UCD into my phone and bookmarked the location in google maps, so I should be set.

Interesting about the MG...when she was young, I was convinced she had this and I had her tested. She was negative then. Since it can be acquired, I wondered if that could have changed. Certainly worth keeping on this list.

The vet/chiro just called a bit ago to check on things. Her dad is a chiro for people and she just relayed to me some of the things that they talked about wrt Indy. It was very neat that she followed up like that, it was comforting.
Posted By: SLEACHY

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 04:33 AM

Quote:
After she and the techs left the room, this just made me cry. And also on the way home. And now too teary

I know exactly how you feel! Give Indy a hug and a kiss and tell her that there are folks all over the world thinking about her. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 04:45 AM

Sleachy, I **know** that you know what I'm going through, thank you!

Max is confused. Whenever Indy coughs, he gets up and comes over to sit next to me wub
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 05:49 AM

I really like that your vet/chiro checked in. Very comforting and caring! I wish that I had ideas and solutions, but right now all I have is positive thoughts and well-wishes. I'll be beaming them to Indy, for fast recovery and healing. She's been through so much and she is a special, strong girl with a strong will and lots of people sending her good healing energy!
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 06:00 AM

Just thinking of you guys and checking in. Been following the thread all day while at work and sending healing vibes and positive thoughts Indy's way every time I checked in! Wet eyes for Miss Indy here in Missouri too. hugging Every best possible thought from me to your sweet, classy Indy is zooming her way!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 07:05 AM

Thank you!! She is soaking up all those well wishes!

Her eyes are different tonight. Occasionally they open better, the one eye is not tearing. She is wobblier in the hind and weak weak weak. Her poor little voice is so hoarse from all the mucous frown When awake, she is able to be more alert. I did find a couple of homeopathic remedies that I will try crossedfingers

eta: Oops, the eyes change, and tear again, when she is standing or tries to walk...
Posted By: 3K9Mom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 09:37 AM

Oh sheesh, why didn't you tell me? I hardly come here anymore. Lisa... hugging

Indy Indy Indy... wub

Davis is great. We went there last summer when Miss Meri got really sick on a trip south. Call me if you need guidance on campus. We got a little turned around...

It's not, as far as I can tell KC or CHF that's causing these symptoms that appear to be neurological to me. My kids have had both and I haven't seen those symptoms.

Here's a question. When was Indy's last chiro appointment before this crisis happened? Any neck adjustments?

How has her general level of hydration been? Does she move around a fair amount or is she generally sedentary?

Since the crisis, have you seen any evidence of cyanosis?






Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 09:54 AM

I have been thinking of Indy all day. Just wanted to wish you some comforting thoughts and I am sending Indy all my most positive, healing thoughts and prayers hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 10:47 AM

Thank you bianca, she is not worse and still resting peacefully.

She appears to be coughing more tonight after the drugs. I don't know.

Lori, I guess I just didn't think, silly me....

Indy's cardio is at UC Davis, we're lucky to ahve them close.

I agree that it's neurological, so does the vet/chiro.

This could be chiro induced, but I don't think it's completely. I've been looking back, and she's been shuffling with her back feet, and a bit stumbly before her last adjustment (Tuesday). I was convinced it was the chiro, but now I'm wondering if it isn't overload of something in her body. I keep coming back to and mdr1 type reaction: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/news/ginger.aspx I dunno, maybe grasping at straws. She shouldn't be on anything this toxic unless she is reacting to the enalapril.

She is pretty sedentary, she can't move because her legs aren't steady, so she's resting a lot. cyanosis in the gums, but that is not completely abnormal. There is a bit of discoloration on her stomach, but it's a normal spot, though she hasn't been out in the sun, so I'm not sure.

Hydration appears normal - I add water to all meals, and have been giving apple juice so that she will drink.

Her Interceptor was on the 9th, and she's on a 1/5, Safeheart dose. She's only a half-mutant.

Worse yet, it appears that cerenia is pumped by p-glycoprotein too: After oral administration, maropitant is absorbed through the intestinal tract and is a substrate for efflux via the surface membrane by the multidrug transporter P-glycoprotein. http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vet...e/detail/622456 So I really don't think I should be using that. I've emailed WSU to ask what they know about this drug, though Indy reacts to more than what is on their list.

Last weekend, she was at my folks', barking her head off and running like mad after the squirrels. I was worried she might rupture another tendon in her heart. There are so many different bad things that this could be.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:16 AM

So can she tolerate charcoal like Ginger or is it not advisable to add anything else to the mix?
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:30 AM

Just letting you know I am thinking of you and Indy. I am off to work, but will check for updates as soon as I am back home.

Take care, Lisa and Indy. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:33 AM

I started her on the charcoal yesterday, but stopped it today. I think I will go back to it. I'm gonna catch a few hours of sleep and hope a plan comes to me smile
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:35 AM

I'm willing you to come up with something. I believe that if anyone can it will be you! smile hugging
Posted By: Qyn

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 12:20 PM

I only just saw this Lisa. Sending my best wishes. Hugs to you, Indy and Max. hugging
Posted By: Sylv

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 12:27 PM

Thinking of you and Miss Indy hugging
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 01:18 PM

I have been pretty much off line all weekend and just saw this! I am hoping today brings some recovery for Indy and some answers too.

I hope you got some sleep. hugging
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:09 PM

Lisa,

I can't do anything except hope for the best for two brave females: Indy and Lisa more sincere positive thoughts going westward with the sun.

MJ
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:29 PM

Just got online and am checking in. More good thoughts flowing out for you and Miss Indy The Amazing. Wanting this to resolve, an answer to be found. Wishing you strength, and Indy healing.
Posted By: Woodreb

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:35 PM

Good thoughts coming from our family to yours as well.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 02:56 PM

Morning Lisa. Just checking on you, Indy and Max.

Sending more healing vibes to Indy.
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:04 PM

Just checking in this morning to see how Indy is doing. I hope she is much better today after a good night's sleep. Thank goodness you're able to go to Davis. They are so good at diagnosing mysterious illnesses. We took our last dog, Sheba, to Davis for two problems that none of the local vets could figure out and they came through for us both times.

Sending prayers and healing thoughts to sweet little Indy.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:09 PM

Also checking and sending healing thoughts to Indy and comfort to you and Max. I hope UCDavis can help figure out what's going on.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:13 PM

Ditto to the above. We will all be waiting to hear how things are going.
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 03:44 PM

Hoping the best for you all!!!
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 04:18 PM

Sending more hugs and well-wishes your way.
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 04:22 PM

More healing thoughts from here!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 04:23 PM

She is not worse this morning. And I have no greatly increased clarity.


I guess I will try a few things more - instead of neck down, this could be pelvis up. I will have to see when I get home later.

I really appreciate the good vibes - helps to know that we aren't alone in this.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 06:11 PM

If you had a dog that got into something digestively toxic - thinking bacteria here, and the dog couldn't tolerate flagyl, what would you use?

Just trying to think of a different angle...
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 06:48 PM

Arsenicum Album
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 06:53 PM

Doxy and tylan?
Posted By: elisabeth

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 09:25 PM

Just noticed this thread.. sending healing thoughts to Indy and comforting ones to you!
Posted By: 3K9Mom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 10:06 PM

What I was thinking is that with humans, it's rare, but not altogether uncommon, a chiro adjustment (especially those in the cervical area) can throw an embolism. The clot is there, hanging out; it might -- but probably wouldn't -- move on its own. Then the adjustment opens up the artery entirely to promote a nice full blood flow (which generally is good, of course). The clot is now free to move again. And we get a stroke.

This guy BLAMES the stroke on the adjustment. Maybe in some cases that's true. Maybe half? Not all practioners are capable professionals, of course. But I think in a lot of cases, the clot pre-existed the adjustment.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

These folks downplay the risk: http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/positions/stroke.htm


But I can tell you that it DOES happen more often than you might think. I've handled those cases. I'm not blaming. But there's a relationship there. So if Indy had an adjustment somewhat prior to this incident, we might look at that. I'm not anti-chiro, btw. Zamboni got a lot of relief from hers, and I take Meri to one now and then. But I'm very cautious about cervical adjustments.

Of course, clots can be thrown for other reasons, like DVT. If she doesn't normally move a lot (or hasn't moved on a particular day) especially if she may have become dehydrated (perhaps on a drive, and if it's been overly hot there), she may form a clot. Then movement could throw one.

I dunno. For some reason, this just seems stroke-ish. Hard to know. But I figured I'd throw it out there for something else to consider. It seems that perhaps she has more than one thing going on. A major trauma that compromised her immune system (further) and triggered underlying issues. So it may be useful to treat symptomatically for the time being.


For a dog that has overgrowth of bacteria, I'd try ampicillin, 3x per day. It's an nice inexpensive abx that isn't frequently used but is effective on GI bacteria. The dose depends on how aggressive the vet wants to be. Treat for 30+ days.

I'd avoid probiotics at least initially unless the vet specifically says otherwise. I don't want to create bacteria overgrowth even if it's "good" bacteria.

I'd also ask about a prescription for Carafate (in a suspension, crush the tablet, dissolve in water and administer via a syringe into her mouth) to sooth her GI tract. Give that before meals (30 min unless the vet prescribes otherwise). Carafate is a great drug that sooths the GI tract while we troubleshoot.

Do you know if she is in pain, like GI pain?
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 10:19 PM

Just checking in and sending more positive thoughts and hugging to you both.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 10:47 PM

Thank you bianca, I'm on my way home to check on Little Miss.

Lori, I was talking to friend at lunch today about the possibility of throwing a clot, interesting that you mention it.

I am confident that the chiro didn't cause this, as these would all be ongoing issues. Certainly they could have triggered something.

This morning I was debating the idea of some of these symptoms caused by pain. Btw, tramadol is an mdr1 drug.

Doxy and tylan (eurythymycin sp?) Are mdr1, even if mild, I would prefer to stay away. Ampicillin - I have amoxicillin at home??? Would that also help with the aspirate pneumonia deterrent?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 10:59 PM

FCE?

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fibrocartilaginous_embolism.html ?

frown
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:05 PM

Lisa, more positive vibes continue to be sent for Indy, as well as you. Let's have another bounce-back miracle, Miss Indy-- we all LOVE you! Lisa, you are not at all alone in this. I've had Indy on my mind and heart since you started this thread. Tons of healing energy beaming out for your wonder girl.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:41 PM

Lisa, I'm just seeing this:(((( I haven't got any suggestions, but the first thing I thought of when I started reading this thread was stroke/vestibular or some type of poisoning.

Many moons ago, Jake had a stroke, the significant things I saw, were, leg buckling, very unsteady, drooling, and rapid eye movement, back and forth, back and forth..It was not vesitublar , it was a stroke, I can't recall the meds they put him on,but do recall one was an anti nausa (sp) drug. He was fine one minute, down the next.

I see some of the same symptoms with Indy, but sounds like she has more things going on than Jake did.

You are sooo much more "up" on stuff than I most of us here, and I know you'll do whatever you have to do to get to the bottom of this.

I will be keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers, like you have done for soooo many of us...What the heck is it with us, who have dogs that get these weird darn illnesses ??

Will be keeping track of Indy and you,
Posted By: 3K9Mom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/27/10 11:55 PM



wow, that does look like it, doesn't it? She was playing like crazy at your parents?

If so, it's not progressive. Rehab can help, and you can certainly do much of the rehab shown on that page at home or around your neighborhood. I was able to make Cavaletti Rails out of PVC piping from Home Depot after Mer's surgery pretty easily. Then I saw those foam "noodles" (for play in pools) at Walgreens and thought those would have been even better -- nice and soft for when she bumped into them, and so easy to cut into the right length.


Not amoxy. It's not exactly interchangeable with ampicillin. Your vet could tell you if amoxy might work, but given Indy's tender condition, I'd be more inclined to go with something that I knew is prescribed for this condition (I've never seen anything that says amoxy is used for GI issues, unless perhaps it's stacked with inhibitors, like in the case of Clavamox. But I wouldn't use Clavamox here either -besides, Clavamox is ridiculouly expensive, and I can't ever get those little foil pouches open first thing in the morning. hammer ). Can your vet call in an Rx to Costco, Sam's, Walgreens or whatever? It cost me about $27 for a 30 day Rx for my little guy at Costco this month.

When Indy stabilizes, we need to talk about rehab. Remind me.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 12:12 AM

Oh, hey. Just saw you mention her "heart meds." This is probably unrelated, but is she on Enacard (Vasotec/enalapril)? My dog (previously mentioned, with CHF) got very, very sick on enacard... had a reaction that caused him to have difficulty walking, and he was acting so sick I honestly thought he was going to die. Cowering, shaking, hard time moving around. When I stopped the drug he went back to normal within a couple of days. Apparently it is a rare reaction but if Indy is on that drug maybe ask your vet about it.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 12:16 AM

Well, she's still alive (whew!)

Her mobility is not better at all, but her eyes are open wider (though teary), and she seems able to raise her head up rather than looking like she is ducking under a low bridge. Still lots of froth and some gagging, but not much.

I called the vet about the carafate and she left a message saying that it wouldn't really help in this situation, and it's best if I "just hop over to UCD". She is leaving for 8 days for a conference. My regular is once a week and normally here on Tuesdays, but gone for the week.


The homeopathic vet's office has been closed the last two weeks, but maybe I will get a call tomorrow.

I really don't want to go to UCD. They will want to run an MRI, and, frankly, I have money to maybe treat, probably not diagnose. If I have that MRI, most likely Max won't be around much longer because of his chronic expensive issues.

I'm going to go make one more call right now to the rehab place.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 12:34 AM

Rehab place is booked.

I will have her regular chiro evaluate tomorrow. Next week her regular vet will be back and we'll do acupuncture. Needles hurt her, so we'll get about one acu visit in before indy's on to us and fights it.

I have a call into the chiro that adjusted her before this happened, just to let him know. He's at the rehab place.

I have to make her a new bed in the living area; I guess I get the chair back, but I can't bring myself to sit in it.

Lori, I hope there is rehab, this is breaking my heart.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 12:44 AM

Shawn, yes! That's the med that she is on - enalapril/encard. She got *very* stumbly when first on it, then seemed to stabalize. I thought it was a blood pressure issue.

The vet said I shouldn't stop the med cold turkey, but I was planning on giving every third dose. I am going to stop it now and see what happens. Did you use a different med?

I am very sad to say, that I find myself without a vet, and it sucks. I've tried a couple vets out at the main place I go to, and none of them have worked out. I'm not at all happy with the situation that I have found myself in.
Posted By: 3K9Mom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:04 AM

Lisa, I would go to Davis. I don't know that they'll want to run an MRI and you can always decline. I would look them in the eye and say what does an MRI get us? In virtually every case with a diagnostic test, if it gets me something actionable, then I'll run it. But in this case, I really don't know that it will. A resident might think it's a great idea, but the attending would likely be inclined to see it your way (and thus I'm not sure that they'd suggest one).

If a diagnostic test can give me something to DO, fine. If they give me information but nothing that I can act upon, then no. I've never had any physician or vet even blink at the logic behind that.

Plus Indy is very ill. MRIs are very traumatic. Even a moron has to see that's a bad idea unless we can get very useful info that can lead directly to treatment that can give her nearly instant turn-around.

I'd go. You know what's best. But even the best regular vet isn't going to be able to give you the specialized care that Indy most likely needs. If you go now, you'll get Emergency care most likely, unless you can call ahead and critical care staff hang around. But she'd be first in line for tomorrow (either by staying overnight or returning). They may be able to give her something to keep her comfortable as well.

I know that you have lots of options and lots of knowledge. I have my complete pharmacy of pretty much everything you can imagine and I can do a lot from home. I have my holistic vet, regular vets that I really like, etc. But sometimes, I reach a point where I really need that *new* set of eyes. Sometimes, there's something none of us are seeing. Even if you can't do the complete work-up, that new set of eyes (the critical care attending) may give you the info you need. Yes, it is what we thought it was. She won't get worse. We need to start rehab.

Or, it's something else entirely. We need to go in a completely opposite direction and do x, y, and z. Maybe you get an answer that's actionable. Maybe you get an answer you dread. Maybe you get the answer that "we don't know so we treat symptomatically" -- which is where we are now, but at least we KNOW that that's the best route to take. But at the end of the day, you have information you didn't have.
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:13 AM

Lisa, I'm just reading this whole thread. Not qualified to give any advice, but at least can offer lots of prayers and healing thoughts for our beautiful Ms. Indy.

She is tough and will fight this and get better. I can't imagine how scary this is right now. Just know that we are all here for you guys - day or night. You're in my thoughts and I'm sending a big hug to Indy!! hugging
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:28 AM

We're thinking rehab. We're thinking a fresh set of eyes, and solutions, a gameplan that you can feel good about for Indy. Indy is such a special girl. This must be so frightening for you. Even if this were, for example, a small stroke event, those are worked with nowadays when possible. Supplements, therapies, rehab-- we are expecting help and progress for Indy The Amazing. I wish that I had answers myself to offer. Right now, I am concentrating on sending more positive vibes Indy's way. You're not alone, Lisa. We're all thinking right along with you. If I get a brainstorm, I'll be back. If no brainstorm, I'll be back to offer support. ::::::Sending more positive healing thoughts out for Indy :::::::::::::
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
Lisa, I would go to Davis. I don't know that they'll want to run an MRI and you can always decline. I would look them in the eye and say what does an MRI get us? In virtually every case with a diagnostic test, if it gets me something actionable, then I'll run it. But in this case, I really don't know that it will. A resident might think it's a great idea, but the attending would likely be inclined to see it your way (and thus I'm not sure that they'd suggest one).

If a diagnostic test can give me something to DO, fine. If they give me information but nothing that I can act upon, then no. I've never had any physician or vet even blink at the logic behind that.

Plus Indy is very ill. MRIs are very traumatic. Even a moron has to see that's a bad idea unless we can get very useful info that can lead directly to treatment that can give her nearly instant turn-around.

I'd go. You know what's best. But even the best regular vet isn't going to be able to give you the specialized care that Indy most likely needs. If you go now, you'll get Emergency care most likely, unless you can call ahead and critical care staff hang around. But she'd be first in line for tomorrow (either by staying overnight or returning). They may be able to give her something to keep her comfortable as well.

I know that you have lots of options and lots of knowledge. I have my complete pharmacy of pretty much everything you can imagine and I can do a lot from home. I have my holistic vet, regular vets that I really like, etc. But sometimes, I reach a point where I really need that *new* set of eyes. Sometimes, there's something none of us are seeing. Even if you can't do the complete work-up, that new set of eyes (the critical care attending) may give you the info you need. Yes, it is what we thought it was. She won't get worse. We need to start rehab.

Or, it's something else entirely. We need to go in a completely opposite direction and do x, y, and z. Maybe you get an answer that's actionable. Maybe you get an answer you dread. Maybe you get the answer that "we don't know so we treat symptomatically" -- which is where we are now, but at least we KNOW that that's the best route to take. But at the end of the day, you have information you didn't have.


I agree with this. Tell them that you can't do the MRI right up front. You can't always do everything, you just can't. We all know that - and have to face it at some point. I am sure they will be able to tell a lot without it. They probably also take Care Credit which does help out when you get in a bind if you need it/want it. Plus you get a bunch of people looking at her. And she also has a history there that will be really helpful. Write down all her sensitivities, meds, supplements, symptoms/timeline, etc. so that you can feel better about all of that too.

Thinking of you guys.

PS - you can also ask if there is a state college employee discount - never know. Cornell employees get one.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:48 AM

Lisa,

Oh wow, well, I am not a vet or anything like it BUT I would give it a shot, skipping a dose or two and see if she improves?? My vet also told me not to stop it cold turkey but I seriously thought he was going to die so I stopped it against her advice (she was saying he was acting like that because he was "getting old" and I said nooo... no this is very unlike him. I have a different vet now).

But I think he would have died had I not stopped it.

But I am hesitant to give any "advice" per se because, I really don't know what could happen if you stop the enacard. So use your judgement!

My dog is not on ANY meds for his heart now. He has a very good quality of life and he was just miserable on that drug. If his CHF gets worse we will consider other drugs but for now he seems very happy and content (although he tires easily and does cough/gag on occasion).
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 02:01 AM

also... Enacard can cause kidney failure, so your vet should have been monitoring her kidneys over time (blood draws). Symptoms of kidney failure can include vomiting, diarrhea, very bad breath.

Is her tongue blue? Blue tongue and drooling indicates advanced CHF.

Prayers going out for her still.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 02:20 AM

Perhaps if her liver is sluggish(?) due to age the med which would normally have been well tolerated all along might now become too concentrated in her blood and thus a bit much for her liver/kidneys to cleanse/filter out? Perhaps it's a wise idea to ease up gently on the med until you have more clarity, better answers.

I just wish that I were closer. I'm sending you more strength and healing energy to Indy tonight.
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 02:22 AM

Like everybody, just checking in on your Indy.

all good thoughts to you,
MJ
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 02:40 AM

Thinking of Miss Indy.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:00 AM

I really really wish I had some advice to offer. But I just have more good thoughts to send your way.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:03 AM

Lisa I was just some reading on early signs of liver failure.
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/liver-disease-liver-failure-dogs
Quote:
Hepatic Encephalopathy

This is a type of brain dysfunction caused by high levels of ammonia and other toxins in the blood. Ammonia is a byproduct of protein metabolism, and is normally removed from the bloodstream by a healthy liver. When the liver is sick, ammonia accumulates to toxic levels and exerts a poisonous effect on the brain.

Dogs with hepatic encephalopathy develop incoordination, sporadic weakness, disorientation, head-pressing, behavioral changes, drooling, stupor, and mental dullness.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:06 AM

When Chama was older she had a terrible reaction to a drug that had previously given her no trouble. I think the liver theory is a definite possibility.

And then they gave her that narcotic at the e-vet when she bloated and that almost killed her. She was drooling, completely unstable, couldn't hold her head straight...I think it could very well be the drug.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:20 AM

Lisa when DeeDee started showing signs of the Alprozlam (sp) affect on her liver it was fast but not extremely noticeable except for with her it was Diarrhea, then I noticed a little stumbling. She was drooling, but at that time she also had an infection in her gums.

I hate these situations. Drugs that can help can also cause harm.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:21 AM

Wow, thanks so much everyone for both the support and the great information. All of you are the absolute best!

I heard back from WSU, and Cerenia is a suspect drug that they have concerns about for mdr1 dogs. So, it's possible, there was no improvement in Indy, because she was clearing a toxic drug that shouldn't have been given to her. She did also have enalapril yesterday at her evening meal.

I am going to give this a couple of days, off her heart med. (This med actually helped her kidneys by increasing blood flow to them, but I'll have to address this if we get past this experiment.) Indy has been completely paralyzed in her hind end by a medicine before (flagyl), and it did very scary other things to her, so perhaps my judgment is being impaired by that. Tonight she was able to lift herself up without help and stagger over when I was fixing dinner, which is encouraging. Of course later when she tried to get up, she flopped on all fours frown , but I helped her up, and she staggered to her chair, and I helped her up, where she's resting now wub

If this doesn't turn in the next couple days, we will probably go to Davis. The other thing I would have liked to do, but I didn't want to put Indy through the stress at the time, is a full blood panel. (Getting blood from Indy is *not* easy.) Checking the liver values is a very good idea. Enalapril can also cause liver problems. As of her last panel in July, the only elevated values Indy has are the BUN and the ALK Phos - all others significant values are within normal ranges. I've been worried about her liver. My sister mentioned that with CHF, fluid can also collect in other parts of the body, like the liver, and make it work less efficiently.

Indy's voice is so hoarse from all the mucous. Does anyone have any ideas for that? I tried some scullcap today, and it seems to be calming some of the esophageal spasms that she was having. Weird, huh?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:22 AM

Wow Ruth and Val, this sounds maybe like something similar happening. I guess the next couple of days will be very telling.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:27 AM

Lisa, I am so glad that I started DeeDee on Milk Thistle as soon as I took her off the drug.

She is doing well now and almost off home cooked and on a grain free kibble and dong well. I am still giving the Milk Thistle and probably will for another month or so depending on how she does.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:29 AM

I just want to thank all of you guys for the support - Val, Ruth, Jamie, Joanne, Patti and her way with words smile , Lori, MJ, Shawn, Jean, Kris, Kathy, Daine, bianca, elisabeth, Johanna, Sleachy, Jenn, Sandi, Cheryl, Bonnie, Qyn, Sylv, Karin, Natalie, Lin, LaM, Snickle Fritz, Tamie, Sara, etc. Thank you so much!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:33 AM

Val, I have her on Liver Support Factors, but if that drug is so toxic that it does this to her, maybe no supplement could protect her. I will keep her on the LSF now with the drug stopped.

Interesting about the diarrhea. Almost immediately since starting the enalapril, her stools have been soft. That's been about a year ago - not a decent stool in the last year. I figured it was a trade off, but I certainly don't want to trade away her liver!
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:37 AM

OK, I just grabbed Milk Thistle at the Drug store because it was the fastest thing I could get my hands on. I wanted to help her fast I didn't want to wait for shipping.

I know about the trade off stuff, some things we don't mind doing a trade off but others no way. Lisa we just do the best we can do.

I really do hope Indy feels better soon.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:54 AM

I hear you on the Milk Thistle. I had the LSF here for Max, since he's on a zillion drugs.

The older she gets, it seems the harder the choices on those trade-offs. Getting old sucks.

Thank you for the well-wishes. She had the enalapril last night and coughed off and on throughout the night. Tonight, so far, she is mostly peaceful crossedfingers
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:18 AM

I am curious....here is an xray of Max's, followed by two of Indy's. Is there an "organ" that is enlarging? Is it her liver?

Max:





Indy 2009:




Indy 2010:

Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:34 AM

Just catching up and checking in. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 07:29 AM

I ended up giving some tylan and scullcap. She is resting peacefully, only hacked up some mucous after it pooled in her throat after dinner. She is releasing a little gas, and a bit twitchy, which I think is a good thing. crossedfingers
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 08:59 AM

Sending beautiful Miss Indy and you, all my healing positive thoughts hugging I am hoping that Shawn may have hit the nail on the head with the medication and once it is out of her system there will be a dramatic improvement crossedfingers
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:27 PM

Lisa I can't tell for sure on the xray but whatever organ that is in the foreground looks bigger in the 2010 film, not significantly, but a bit bigger.

I do hope Indy continues to show signs of improvement. I understnad about not wnating to put her under any more stress than she is and being conservative with her care. Too much radical care may just tip her the wrong way. That is why we were just letting Max hang on too and giivng him enough so he is comfortable. He hates the vets and it just makes him stress. hugging
Posted By: shepnterrier

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 01:38 PM

Our holistic vet in Germany gave Crataegus (hawthorn) as a safe herbal medicine to dogs with heart insufficieny and Angina pectoris. It doesn't stop an acute episode of Angina pectoris but helps to keep the heart function stable. It is available as a homeopathic remedy and as an herbal remedy. When Crataegus wasn't enough anymore, she switched them to Digitalis, an rx drug, and I don't know the break down metabolism of Digitalis. Crataegus may not be an option for dear Indy, or you've tried and know it, but I wanted to share what little I know in this area.

Lisa, Val, Ruth, Patti, and Shawn, and others, I am very impressed with the insights you have. I am learning. I so hope Indy will recover and be well again soon.

Sending healing vibes and support to you, Indy, and also to Max who must be worried about his Indy. May you be well soon.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 02:32 PM

just want you to know I"m keeping updated with this, and sending good vibes Indy's way:)

You think she has like a 'sore' throat from all the gagging/hacking? how about some 'honey' to soothe her throat?
Posted By: shepnterrier

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 02:54 PM

Personally, I would do as Lori and Jean would, take my dog to a critical care specialist at a teaching hospital in the hope that they have seen a syndrome like this before and might be able to offer relief, without invasive diagnostics that I would avoid, too. They may or may not be able to do so, and they may keep her for a day for their internists to see her, stressful for an ill senior, and I respect your choice to wait even if I myself did differently. Either way you could do right or not.

Thoughts: The online information on liver and drug induced conditions that members found and that is so helpful was provided by veterinarians at teaching hospitals. Veterinarian specialists have the most experience interpreting x-rays and other techniques of reading what goes on inside a body.

An experienced specialist can usually put the puzzle pieces together, especially with the help of a highly educated guardian, and also in the face of several iatrogenic health challenges from past routine veterinary interventions. But, yes, there is no certainty that this would be, and how long it would take, and what the outcome would be.

The situation of being with an beloved ill senior is so hard. We are with you, and your dogs know how much you love them.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:07 PM

Good morning, Lisa and Indy. Just checking in to see how our girl is. It's so hard to be a diagnostician ourselves when our dogs have something we don't yet understand. Trying to try therapies and guess what might help with supplements and which way to go, is stressful. Worst of all is worrying when we see symptoms! My compassion for your understandable worry and stress, Lisa. hugging My hope is that things will become more clear, and Indy will begin to rally. Indy is one very tough girl. Liver, esophagus, heart, spine, neuro-- heal and strengthen for Miss Indy! Many positive thoughts streaming out for a true recovery, beginning today.

I know Indy's on the Liver Support Factors. Would it be any use to consider something for helping the liver via homeopathy?

http://www.liddell.net/Toxins/c16/p43/Liver-Detox/product_info.html

Or perhaps you don't want to throw too much into the mix just yet without knowing more? I am keeping Indy firmly in my warmest thoughts today. And also you Lisa, as well!
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:13 PM

Just thinking of you all this morning...

Lisa, can Indy have yogurt? I make popsicles out of yogurt, 2 tablespoons honey and a can of sugar free peaches and mix everything in the blender and freeze. You wouldn't even need the peaches, but maybe the cold would help soothe her throat.

Hoping you have a good day today! hugging
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:37 PM

Oh, Lisa - you guys have been through much in such a short time. I am reading all the info here with amazement. This is where our community shines - sharing experiences.

I am hope today and will look for updates on Indy. I hope she will begin to have some recovery.

Again, hugs to you both. hugging
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 03:39 PM

I hope Indie had a good night. When Chama had that reaction to the narcotic she was very nauseous. Is Indie nauseous?
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 04:03 PM

Lisa,

Morning hopes for some relief for Indy and you.

Your advice has helped so many people and dogs and I see that many others are trying to return the favor.

take it easy, ladies,
MJ
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 04:06 PM

Checking in, we are all still praying for you and Indy!
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 04:10 PM

Sending good thoughts for you and healing thoughts to Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 05:25 PM

She was worse last night compared to when I came home, so I'm wondering if I didn't screw up with the Tylan. Until I can get the med Lori mentioned, amoxi it is.

I think that organ looks a bit larger too. It looks uncomfortable.

I am worried about feeding her. I keep putting food in, and nothing is coming out - she hasn't had a bowel movement sinc Sat and I'm worried. Her anal area looks kinda puffy and full, but I think it's just not working right because of whatever is going on.

Maybe the car ride to her regular chiro will get something moving. At this point, I'd be happy for her to have an accident in the house!
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 05:46 PM

Lisa, have you considered Myasthenia Gravis as a possible cause? Reading up about it and the symptoms fit.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 05:49 PM

Oh wow, the screen refreshed and all sorts of replies and ideas, you guys are the best!

Sarah, I was concerned about the hawthorne and strengthening the heart because of her broken tendon It's such a balancing act.

Ruth, I am not sure about the nausea - the mucous is triggered by food in the stomach and movement. Could be nausea, I don't know how much pain there is - her toes still have feeling, at times more than at other times.

This morning she is again righting her paws better, so that's good.

The honey and yogurt are good ideas.

Homeopathic support - I found a remedy I'm trying, and am hoping to be in contact with the homeopathic vet, eventually, if her office ever opens back up!

About Davis, one thing I have to do first is eliminate all the weird stuff that they say can't happen, but does, because, well, this is Indy. I've been in a weird situations with her so many times, which is one of my hesitations while there are still things here to try.

I haven't had her out yet, but here's hoping that today is a good day.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 05:57 PM

Myasthenia Gravis certainly cannot be ruled out. If it's that, the homeopathic vet should really be able to help.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:03 PM

I have some Throat Coat tea here, her throat is raw and bark is terrible - guess it's not effective unless she can sip it, eh?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:15 PM

Can anyone think of something that "lives in" or irritates the esophageaus (sp?), but affects the central nervous system?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:22 PM

She sounds like a debarked dog, poor thing!
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:28 PM

That's how Chell sounded with the pneumonia-- hoarse, raspy. Some coughing. Xrays at first showed only an enlarged esophagus. He was staggery and eventually couldn't walk. But, Indy's lungs are clear. Hmmm. If the esophagus were to swell lots for whatever reason, might that cut her airway's passage slimmer? If she got less air, she'd be too weak to walk, staggery? Anti-inflammatory for esophagus.. but safe for her heart?

This is all guesses and trying to brainstorm. If you did decide to take her to UC Davis, you could make plain that you do not want imaging done such as an MRI. You're working so hard to try to diagnose. Perhaps the skilled vets there could narrow things down much easier?

More positive thoughts for Indy. Wishing only the best, and a real turnaround for her!
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:38 PM

Come on Indy, stop worrying your mama! hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:46 PM

Lisa, an infection in the Tonsils. Would cause drooling, gagging and raspy vocal noises. But that wouldn't account for the other problems unless she would have a multi thing going on. If it is the Tonsils, Amoxicillin should take care of that.
Amoxicillin info. Not sure if it was posted earlier.
http://www.petcarerx.com/pcrx/HealthGuide/Medications/Medication.aspx?mid=10164
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:48 PM

This is purely a guess, but it might be a reactivated herpes virus infection. From what I googled, in adults the usual infection yields respiratory symptoms. In other animals (like us), herpes viruses can sit quietly in neurons for years and get activated from stress or immune suppression or the phase of the moon.

I couldn't find anybody describing a neuronal component of herpes virus in adult dogs -then again Indy is special.

MJ
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 06:58 PM

There is a parasite, Spirocerca lupi, that could live in the esophagus and can cause swelling in the spine and joints. That would be really out there though, as you're not in an endemic area...

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23501.htm
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 07:07 PM

I just switched to amoxi, will talk to the vet about the other form of pencillin that Lori mentioned. I can be in email contact with the vet from Sat night.

Talked to the original chiro, he said it sounds like a stroke, but will talk to me and my regular chiro today after our appt.

She is breaking my heart!

Sure wish the webmaster were here - either today or tomorrow. I wish she would have run that blood panel. I just didn't want to put indy through it at that point.

With indy, I am so used to pulling her through - I am trying to face that it just might not happen this time.
Posted By: shepnterrier

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Braverhund
You're working so hard to try to diagnose. Perhaps the skilled vets there could narrow things down much easier?

Even the most highly educated guardian can go only so far in diagnosing from past experience with her dog. That knowledge is crucial, but so is the specialist vet care. We are so very fortunate to live at a time and in a country that has top of the line specialist veterinary care.
hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 07:38 PM

My plan -

If nothing promising found today, Davis ER tonight.

If anything promising found, evaluate for 24 hrs and see what tomorrow night brings.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 08:37 PM

Just wanted to add my continued thoughts and best wishes to darling Indy hugging

If this is out of line so to speak please ignore and don't be offended as that is the last thing I want but if you would like, to send me a brief synopsis of Indy's details I can ask Kylie (who is a vet nurse at the specialist vet center) to ask the vets there for idea's? Just a thought that I wanted to throw out there as they deal with hard cases from all over this state I believe.

Anyway sending lots care and healing thoughts.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 09:07 PM

*HUGS* to you and Indy. Still thinking of you and hoping for the best.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 09:54 PM

Just checking in again from work. I understand your reticence about going to the vet...I have the same issues taking Cleo about tests, stress, etc. When I can't get her on the right track I do take her in for testing but I am very forceful in letting them know exactly what I want done and when they say all of the other stuff I just sing "la, la, la" in my head. So if you do take her into the vet tonight know that we will all be with you in spirit, keeping you strong.

If she is constipated and you can find chinese rhubarb powder then I can't recommend it highly enough. It has made a huge difference for Cleo. She was so uncomfortable before I started adding that (along with pumpkin, probiotics and Perfect Form) to her food. Phytomucil (which is easy to find) is also great.

Big hugs to you, Indy and Max. We're pulling for Indy...and having been through so much with Chama and Cleo I totally understand what you're going through right now.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 10:18 PM

Gosh if it were just the enacard I'd expert her to be improving by now. She is not any perkier is she? Less stumbling? Anything?
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/28/10 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
I am very forceful in letting them know exactly what I want done and when they say all of the other stuff I just sing "la, la, la" in my head.


I'm going to store this away. I love it Ruth!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:04 AM

At the chiro today, she found several things that might be affecting how Indy is feeling and/or reacting. The question is whether those things are causative, or if they are there in response to whatever has been happening to her. I believe that the next 24 hours will be very telling.

In an hour or so, I will be consulting with the homeopathic vet, and then she will do a workup and decide on an appropriate remedy for Indy. I am so happy and relieved to be in contact with her. It was roughly 9 years ago when Indy and I both discovered this chiro and this homeopathic vet, and both have been so instrumental in having Indy still here today. So I am pleased to be gathering "the team" to help Little Miss through this as best as possible.

I have to go prepare for the conversation with the vet, and then get a bit of my own work done so I will be able to sleep later. I will catch up with the other posts in a bit - some interesting ideas there! Bianca, that is a very generous offer! The more heads on this the better, and I will need to carefully jot a few things down.

Right now, Indy is resting soooo deeply after the adjustment, I won't know what's going on with her until later.

Ruth, I very much appreciate the comments about the vet. Even after all of my experience, I still screw up at the vet's sometimes. It's not that I don't want to consult with specialists at the University, it's just that often they aren't the optimal ones to consult with. Not having the history with Indy, it's really difficult dealing with those that are so so so so so so so so allopathic in their thinking. Even the chiro vet, who is more of a vet than a chiro, doesn't "get" Indy. Usually, as with the Sunday vet trip, I end up with a wasted trip, or getting meds that she won't tolerate or don't help or are inappropriate for her (though they usually sound good at the time), when I could have used those rare funds for treatment that really is valuable to her.

UC Davis is still not ruled out, but it looks like I won't be going tonight. I will be holding my breath to see how Indy reacts to today's adjustment!
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:12 AM

Glad Miss Indy is resting deeply after her adjustment...I hope that means that she is feeling tired but better. crossedfingers that she awakens feeling much more herself. Still thinking of and pulling for her! bloomrose
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:13 AM

Than, you Cheryl, I am hoping that too, but don't tell anyone, I don't want to jinx it!
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:19 AM

My lips are sealed!!! hugging
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:01 AM

Awww hoping Indy feels so much better after her adjustment. smile
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:04 AM

I'm so glad you are going to be able to consult with your trusted homeopathic vet who knows Indy's history. That must be quite a relief.

Fingers crossed that the adjustment does the trick and Indy feels much better after some good rest.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:04 AM

Sending more good thoughts for Indy from Grimm and me! Wishing for good answers and a good recovery, too. Hoping that you get some rest as well, Lisa. More positive vibes being sent for Miss Indy...
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:09 AM

Fingers and Paws all crossed here that the adjustment helps and you have a good consult with your homeopathic vet.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: LJsMom
Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
I am very forceful in letting them know exactly what I want done and when they say all of the other stuff I just sing "la, la, la" in my head.


I'm going to store this away. I love it Ruth!


Actually, my regular allopathic vet always says to me, "Well it doesn't really matter what I say because you're going to do what you want anyway. And you're obviously doing something right so I can't really argue with you." whistling
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:27 AM

Lisa,

I'm very glad you are going to consult with the homeopath. I'll be interested to hear the results of your conversation. What about some Reiki for Indy and for you too?

And that is the exact thing that happens to me when i see a specialist or new vet. I have SO many bottles of this and that that have never been opened. And once when I took Cleo for an ultrasound my then partner approved her getting a steroid shot without waiting for me to respond...and that took so long to get out of her system. mad It is even tougher when you are tired and so worried and just want your beloved animal to get better. hugging
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:53 AM

That's it...just get better Miss Indy.

Have a good night, Lisa and Indy,
MJ
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Mary Jane
That's it...just get better Miss Indy.

Have a good night, Lisa and Indy,
MJ


Ditto! Sleep well all... hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:29 AM

Remember when I said that I would rather Indy had an accident on the carpet (bowel movement) than not have a bowel movement at all? Well, I was holding her outside (she had barked to go out). BUT, she can't hold herself in place to go to the bathroom, and it's almost pitch black outside. My shorts took most of it, unfortunately it was a small amount, good I had long shorts on. Then I had her lay down on the patio while I looked to see if there was more and to see where it went (hadn't seen my shorts yet), she tried to get up, fell and crash her front end and chin into the hard patio. How terrible do I feel about that??? My heart is breaking....I feel like throwing up. She's gagging in a weird way right now - I hope it's the mucous, and didn't just do something bad on the patio.

It appears that the adjustment is not the silver bullet frown Clearly she feels better and is more relaxed, and hopefully I see more improvement tomorrow. She seems to be able to get up better when I lift her, but even holding her up, her little legs go everywhere but where they should.

So, here is the report on the homeopathic vet phone consult.....
combined with what I told her about the history and what the chiro found today, she focused on the cervical area, probably lower cervical.....

--tumor (focus on quality of life)
--FCE (takes months for maximum recovery)
--blown disk (can be a quicker recovery)
--infection (Indy has a life history of serious chronic infection)
--inflammation, independent of or caused by all of the above.

keep doing what I'm doing, plus acupuncture (use injection acupuncture if continued stimulation is the problem with Indy, though she might not be able to tolerate that either), continue with full dose metacam until a remedy is selected (I gave her a small dose this morning), slippery elm slurry with honey for the throat, and a child suppository to get her to eliminate. Hopefully she will call back tomorrow with the remedy. She's just back from being away 2 weeks - I really appreciate her fitting us in.

While pred is the most effective anti-inflammatory, and she knows I would only use it in the most serious of situations (same would be said for her I suspect), it is more dangerous here since Indy may have an infection, so we will stick with the metacam.

I'm on my way out to get the suppository - anyone know how long that takes to kick in? I need to start feeding her meals, to get her on an aggressive dose of doxy. Kinda kicking myself for taking her off about 3 months ago - whether it's inflammation or infection or tumor, I know it was helping her.

My girl appears to be very ill. I"m off to Wally World for the laxative.
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:37 AM

hugging Sending more healing thoughts to Indy.
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:44 AM

I'm so sorry about the fall. I know how it feels to watch your dog fall and hurt themselves knowing you might have prevented it (remember my deck steps my negligent, dumb self didn't fix...I thought I could keep everyone safe and I didn't...NOT really the same thing by any means, I was WAY more at fault for Troy's accident). At any rate, it is a horrible thing to watch happen, I know, and I was a sobbing uncontrollable mess afterwards. Try not to beat yourself up too much, you are doing the best you can (whereas there was definitely more I could have done). frown

I hope that the suppository helps her rest a little better. I don't know how long it takes to kick in for a canine, but with my kids it was almost immediate. Hope that you can both get some quality rest tonight. hugging
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:55 AM

hugging hugging hugging hugging hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 05:22 AM

Cheryl, I remember the stair incident and how bad you felt. I am feelin' your pain.

Re the hugging ... Thank you, and thank you frown
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 06:29 AM

Oh no, I am so sorry about the crash. That sort of thing happened a couple of times when I was helping Chama up and down steps. I always felt like puking. frown

What is she eating right now? I am expert at hand feeding these days so let me know if you need any pointers there.

Are you getting water into her somehow? How is her hydration? I would imagine you would need to keep on top of that with the mucous. SubQs are easy to do and easy to get from the vet.

Good luck with the suppository.

Keep a close eye on her after the Metacam. If she does have liver and/or kidney issues right now then it will be difficult for her to process any NSAIDS.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 07:51 AM

She has been eating cooked lean pork, cut pretty small, and veggies. She seems to eat okay, but insists on standing, which is not easy, since I have to stop everything to hold her. I can give her some primal raw now and again.

I hadn't thought that with the mucous, she would need even more hydration. I usually add a lot of water to the meal, but she hasn't been getting as much. I've been trying more apple juice since that's all she will drink if it's not mixed with meat. Primal is good because it mushes well with water. SubQ's they seem to not want to do with her heart I think, but I will ask about that. I have to think the mucous might not be as stringy if she is more hydrated?

The suppository was a bust. Took forever to find at the store (long story). The grass was wet outside, but we went out anyway - she didn't like the insertion wink tried to hop up several minutes later, and either expelled it, or she didn't really have anything to go.

I'm not real thrilled about the metacam either. I can't get pills in her, so I can't use some of my favorite stuff.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 08:21 AM

Okay, this is a totally off base question, but could this be a blockage of some sort? She scarfed a very large piece of hard bread/roll/bagel on campus Wednesday before I could stop her. The salivation would fit, but probably not the neuro symptoms. The xray did say that the esophagus was dilated. That couldn't be related, could it be????
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 08:58 AM

Just wanted to add my continued best wishes for Indy. I pray the adjustment will show improvement tomorrow.

Prior to before when did she last have a bowel movement. I don't know about the child suppositories but the adult ones usually take around 30 minutes. Can you get enemas such as microlax?

http://www.chemistaustralia.com.au/products/microlax-enema-5ml-12.html

It's more just a lubricant that stimulates the bowel.

Would it maybe be time for an x-ray?
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 11:55 AM

Would it be worthwhile to get another x-ray to compare with the one from a few days ago? And a blood draw to make sure the Metacam isn't making things worse? I know blood draws are difficult for Indy so understand any hesitation.

hugging
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 12:02 PM

Lisa, it is just not getting better yet, is it? I am so sorry about the fall. Don't beat yourself up - it was an accident and not one you would have expected.

I so hope you can get a handle on Indy's problems soon. Is she allowed a little tea with honey? That could help with the mucous in her throat if it is OK.

Hang in there, Lisa. And Indy - poop Anyplace, even if on your mom's shorts.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 12:41 PM

so sorry indy fell , been there done that with Dodge, and it's so heartbreaking, makes us feel terrible:(

Since she hasn't really had a bowel movement, and is vomiting, maybe that chunk of hard bread is 'stuck' somewhere and not digesting??

It could be a long shot, but I'm wondering if it would show up on an xray and maybe it's time to think about having one?

Still sending good vibes and hoping for some improvement, hang in there
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:34 PM

Oh wow, I was hoping to read about good progress this morning for Miss Indy.

So sorry she fell, I can surely understnad how you feel about that - been there with Max.

Paws are crossed here that she turns a corner toward some recovery today.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:42 PM

Man, I need to get some sleep, I'm exhausted.

I have some very definite things I'm observing, and depending on what those look like when I get home today, will determine if we go to Davis.

I am exactly thinking blood draw and now also thinking possible abdominal xrays. I would have gone last night, but too tired to make the drive safely, and then get back. I have to grab a quick nap after work. It's very possible that there is no blockage, but that there is significant infection. She does not froth so much (or sometimes at all) when she hasn't been fed, or she has been fed a liquid meal. Her eyes are becoming infected, her abdomen is firm, and it was not that way before when I checked it, whatever that day was. That day that she did well, may have been the morning that I did try the Tylan, it's all a blur right now. Gonna try for another 20 min of sleep before I have to get up for good. I just finished prepping for my afternoon classes frown
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:45 PM

Thanks for checking on us this morning. Think good thoughts for the girl while I am gone. I will tell Max to be especially good.
Posted By: myamom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 01:59 PM

Just seeing this now...sorry don't get on here much anymore...someone alerted me.

Just know that I am sending lots of prayers, positive thoughts and hugs!
Posted By: Qyn

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 02:31 PM

I keep reading but have nothing to add but my support and best wishes that whatever is causing this is soon sorted out and Indy is on the mend. Hugs to you Lisa. hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:16 PM

Lisa, hugs to you.

Sending good Vibes to Indy. I am sure your Max will be a very good boy while you are gone.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:17 PM

Just so folks understand, if I thought indy absolutely needed to go now, we would be gone now. Right now she is barking at me with her debarked bardy sound for food (which she ain't getting).

Last night I was doing some Reiki on her (thanks for the reminder Ruth), and she starting releasing some gas. This morning she is still passing some gas. Hopefully by tonight it's enough time to see if the abx are working, I don't know if it's too soon though.

My biggest fear is that she will choke while I am gone. At night I sleep next to her and when she coughs, I wake up and put a folded towel under her head and that makes it stop, for the most part. I don't think Max can do that for her - where are opposable thumbs when you need them?

I have to give the exams that I finished this morning. Canceling exams is a big deal, it can affect a students final grade, and thus things that depend on that grade.

I hope I am making the right decision.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:20 PM

Thank you all, thanks for making it over myamom smile
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:25 PM

Just an idea of which I am sure you have thought of already but is there anyone that could come and sit with her while you are at work? A neighbour even?

hugging Continued healing thoughts zooming to Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:29 PM

Suppository worked crazy bad timing, but it worked, at least some!
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:35 PM

Well hopefully that will make her feel a bit better too.
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:35 PM

I'm glad the suppository worked and I'm still sending good thoughts and prayers for Indy's recovery. hugging
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:40 PM

I hope things start to improve soon. You are such a good mom to her. Hoping you get some sleep and she rests peacefully while you're away. Hugs.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:45 PM

Severe constipation is a kind of blockage. And that's what happened with Cleo a couple of weeks ago and she was very, very sick. I think Indy has multiple things going on but that could be happening too.

You're right about SubQs and heart disease, sorry, forgot about that. But you can syringe liquid into her.

For hand feeding you can either do it with a syringe or do it with your fingers (which is what I do and what I find easier and less messy).

I understand about the exhaustion and your responsibilities, please be careful when you're driving to Davis.

Sending comfort and healing energy to you and your 4 leggeds. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:57 PM

I do hope she rests peacefully while I'm gone. She wasn't drooling or gagging when I left, and that makes me fell a bit better.

Lori had commented on the apple juice possibly feeding bacteria - I found some dried liver squares that I ground up and mixed with water and some whey protein, so at least she had some nutrition. I always give them a treat when I leave. Today I left her some chewable papaya type enzymes with other good digestive stuff. I could tell that she felt robbed wub
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 03:59 PM

I find the time line interesting. Had a good Chiro adjustment yesterday, last night had a little bowel movement. Lisa if Indy has been constipated, her body has been working to soften the stool to make it easier to go. So don't be surprised if you have more soft movements until she can get regulated again.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:02 PM

Poor Miss Indy. Sending more hugs and healing thoughts her way. *HUGS* to you too, Lisa. I hope things improve soon so you can get some sleep.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:13 PM

I don't think it is this but just remembered a friend of a friend's dog who had this...
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/laryngeal_paralysis.html

I was checking in all day yesterday while I was out and am hoping things can get better soon.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 04:42 PM

I"m hoping that they get better soon too!

I think it's pretty clear that the voice and esophageal thing is from all the mucous. I so hope we can get a handle on that. I agree with Ruth, it's highly likely that this is not just one thing.
Posted By: mspiker03

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 06:21 PM

I don't always post, but wanted to let you know that I've been following and have been sending good thoughts your way.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 10:09 PM

I have dog training tonight so if I get back early enough I will check in here again. Hope Indy is better this evening.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 10:20 PM

Just checking in hugging and hoping Miss Indy had a good day.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 10:49 PM

Leaving work early and on my way home now (about 50 min drive). Nervous and worried!
Posted By: TMarie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 11:08 PM

Thinking of you and Indy, and hoping for a good report.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 11:22 PM

Sending good thoughts for when you get home and see how Miss Indy is doing. Wishing for improvements for her, and continuing to keep you both firmly in my thoughts!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/29/10 11:41 PM

She's okay. I haven't checked her wobbly status, she hasn't tried to get up. I'm getting ready to clean her up first, she had a pee accident. Poor think, she's such a prissy girl, to not be able to take care of herself must be so difficult.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 12:43 AM

I'm relieved that Indy is ok. She says that Max did it!
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:17 AM

Miss Indy, we have all been embarassed some time.

Just hold on, please hold on for all those who love you.

(foolish to say anything, I know that she hears Lisa and Lisa knows best)
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:26 AM

Oh, Indy, it you couldn't help it and mama Lisa will take care of you.

I keep hoping for a magical sudden recovery. At least she is OK today.

Lisa, have you had a chance to rest any more? Maybe you could sleep if y9ou just make a bed beside Miss Indy.

Take care.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:14 AM

Still praying for you guys and checking in. Every time my Speedy coughs and hacks, I think of Indy. Hoping for a miracle recovery!
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:18 AM

Thinking of you guys this evening and hoping you have a peaceful and restful night... hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:35 AM

Caught a couple of hours sleep. Work is packed in the backpack, indy's records are printed out, xrays in the pack, coffee in the thermous, Max has been fed. All I need to do is walk Max for a few minutes and then we are off to UCD. I hope they find something quickly and cheaply, and I hope that it is fixable. crossedfingers

UCD is probably an hour away.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:38 AM

Hoping so too! We will all be waiting to hear. Take care, drive safe.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:40 AM

You're doing the very best for Indy. My warmest thoughts and most positive vibes are for a good, clear diagnosis of something manageable, and a treatment plan that feels good to you. May Miss Indy truly respond quicker to that treatment plan than you expect, and may her recovery be a smooth one. Grimm and I are in your corner! Paws crossed for clarity, and hope. Continued healing energy being sent for Indy...
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:55 AM

Hoping for the best. I will look for an update later tonight.
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:29 AM

Glad to hear that you're taking her to Davis. I remember making that trip myself several times many years ago.

Keeping fingers and paws crossed for a non-serious diagnosis and an easy and speedy recovery for Miss Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 06:10 AM

Sure does make your heart sink when they wheel your dog away on a gurney.

Will update when I know more.
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 06:24 AM

crossedfingers for some answers...thinking of you.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 07:52 AM

Just checking in before bed...
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 08:14 AM

I just finished talking to the vet. Top of the list is brain tumor. Spend a long time discussing, if you aren't going to do the mri and treat, put her out of her misery now.

I'm not willing to leave her overnight because she may not have long. We are going to run bloodwork, screen for addisons. She would test for myasthemia gravis, but I would have to leave her for that and it's a long shot. She wouldn't give her a shot of liquid doxy in case it's infectious because there is no proof. Indy now as eye ulcers which have developed rapidly.

She did get quite a bit of stool out of her, which is good. After discussion, there isn't a good reason to do xrays alone. There is no one here to do an ultrasound.

I am bringing home some supportive care stuff for the digestion, but only for a couple of days. That won't change the fact that she can't walk - her front end is all messed up.

Unless there truly is a miracle, it won't be long. I can't bear this teary
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 08:18 AM

Oh no frown I'm so, so sorry Lisa frown
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 10:10 AM

I just sent you a PM.

I am praying for that miracle. I am so sorry I have no words teary hugging hugging hugging
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 10:44 AM

Oh no! I'm praying for a miracle also. This just can't be the end.
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:17 AM

My heart just sunk. I am so sorry for the news you got, Lisa. I would be with you and also bring my dog home so I could continue to provide care and love.

If she has pain or is ready, you will help her with that too, I know.

There are just not the words for comfort, but I am thinking of you and Indy. hugging
Posted By: Sylv

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 12:15 PM

Oh Lisa, I am so sorry!! My thoughts are with you as you go through this difficult time.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 12:34 PM

Lisa, I am so very sorry to read this:((( There is nothing to say to make you feel better, but I want you to know, you have gone an extra 100 miles for your dogs when some would have given up a long time ago.

My thoughts are with you and Indy today, hang in there:(
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 12:56 PM

Thanks everyone. I fluctuate tonight between complete despair and heartbreak, and anger and frustration because of the experience that I had. My brain is still trying to process it.

Indy has been gagging the 3 hours....with her throat/esophagus condition, it's very difficult for her....finally some rest now, after she gagged up the last of the friggin' Science Diet food that they fed her without knowing her diet or her allergies. I think this experience alone has halved the amount of time she has left. She is finally still, time for us to rest a bit tonight.

I was trying to get her some relief from the mucous and such. I told the vet that she had a bad reaction to the Cerenia and that it was an mdr1 drug. She said they would try a different one. I thought it would make her feel better. Turns out it's another mdr1 drug and she didn't even half the dose, she dosed in the regular dosage range. I got home and looked the drug up and saw it was mdr1 - called her about an hour ago to see about the dosage. After she told me, I even said to her, "what the f*?" Between the shot and the food (my dog hasn't eaten dog food in about a decade), I'm wondering if Indy will get past this visit, it has taken quite a toll. She's gagging again, sounds like the croup, but I'm afraid of it getting in the lungs.

Who gives a dog that is having a neurological crisis, the full dose of a drug that they can't handle neurologically even under the best of conditions? In what world does this makes sense/????

When I went there, I wanted a good blood draw, and to know about an intestnal obstruction. We'll get the blood results back tomorrow night. She didn't think that treating the digestive problem was worth it since I won't treat the big picture. (she essentially reiterated my refusal for testing when I talked to her tonight again). I told her that I can't begin to get her better if I can't get food into her. She even offered that they could put in a feeding tube, but she wouldn't do that for hospice care. Again, since I declined testing.

Indy's gagging again. How many different ways can a person's heart be broken?
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 01:20 PM

I'm so very sorry, Lisa. Wishing you strength and Indy comfort. hugging Was hoping for better news. My heart is breaking for you. I'm so very sorry.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 01:33 PM

Oh wow, oh wow I am so sorry. teary

How can they be sure it is a brain tumor? Yes I know the MRI would be needed for a firm diagnosis, but I would think they would offer more supportive care for both of you and honor your decisions. It sounds as if all they did was confirm some stuff you knew and stress you both more. mad

I hope you got some rest last night.

hugging
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 01:37 PM

I don't know what to say hugging Prayers are being sent for a miracle.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:14 PM

Hi Lisa,

I'm so sorry. Sending positive energy to you, Indy and Max. Having been there before with my animals I understand how upset you are about the vet visit. Try to let your anger go now and concentrate on loving Indy. hugging
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:28 PM

frown I'm sorry Lisa. Know we are here for you. . .
Posted By: TMarie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:30 PM

I'm so sorry Lisa. My thoughts and prayers are with Indy, you and Max today.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:33 PM

I am so sorry - something I wish I would have done better/more is to sit quietly with them - I was so busy trying to do, I lost that they just like to be. The whole pack sends thoughts of peace to you both.
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 02:41 PM

I haven't been on here much lately and missed this entire thread until yesterday. Just wanted to let you know that Kaiser and I are pulling for you and Indy and hoping she can overcome this latest problem. We're pulling for you. hugging
Posted By: Qyn

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:17 PM

I hope that diagnosis was wrong - the way you described it, the vet seemed to just want you to continue testing Indy rather than to try other avenues to help alleviate any of her symptoms and also disregarded your comments - it is very disheartening when you go a fair distance for help.

Sincere best wishes- I am thinking of you both (and Max). (((((hugs)))))
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:32 PM

OH Lisa. I don't know what to say. Sending you hugs and more hugs.

If you think an Ultra Sound would help you find out what is wrong with Indy, check if there are any Reproduction Specialist Vets in your area. Call them and ask if they could do an UltraSound for you. They all have machines and are skilled at using them.

I would be like you, livid with the mr1 drug, if they weren't sure what they were doing they should have asked first. Owners with mr1 dogs I think know more what is on the BAD list than Vets do.

Sending more hugs and support.
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:33 PM

Lisa, I am so sorry. I cannot believe the vet gave that drug full strength to an MDR1 dog - really is beyond my comprehension. I'm glad you brought her home where she will get the best care possible. I just don't know what to say. I'm heartbroken to hear this latest news. My thoughts are with you all and I'm beaming tons of healing vibes to Indy... hugging
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:40 PM

I'm so sorry to hear about your bad experience at Davis, Lisa. That's awful that they didn't do anything to help with her gagging problems. I also agree with Kathy that how can they be sure it is a brain tumor and not something else? When we went to Davis with Sheba many years ago, we found out that she DID have a brain tumor, but she was also having grand mal seizures, which was a big indication that this might be the case. I mean, it COULD be a brain tumor, but until they do the MRI, they don't know for sure, so could it possibly be something else? Maybe the blood tests will reveal something.

My prayers are with you that Indy will get through this and have many more years with you. I'm so sorry that she (and you) are going through this. It's a helpless and heartbreaking feeling. Take care and know that many people are thinking of you all and hoping for the best. hugging
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 03:55 PM

Lisa,

You know much better than I what Indy needs right now and we all know that you will provide it, you always have. As usual, Indy is trusting you to take care of her and you will. I wish to heaven there was something better to say to you, but you have my fervent best wishes for peace for both of you.

Mary Jane
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:02 PM

She finally stopped gagging about 6 am this morning. She had small rests in there, but not much. I wasn't able to get her homeopathic remedy in her yesterday, she gagged them out. How sensitive was she that she gagged out the little homeopathic pill???? This morning I dissolved it in water and syringed it in her.

Poor thing, she is exhausted. I made her a liquid bowl of whey and crushed liver treat and a few things. She has had a good bit of it, though it is making her kinda gaggy. I started this post about 30 minutes ago probably, and she is still holding it down, which is an accomplishment. It's the side effects of this gag relfex right now that will have the greatest impact on how long she is here.

I had called the other ER place in town about doing an ultrasound on my way home from Davis, but honestly, I'm not sure she could get through it. I did some googling this morning. Not much, but apparently the gag reflex is associated with the brain stem area. She also had a bowel movement this morning sorta. So I'm thinking that an ultrasound won't yield much, and may take quite a toll.

She is about one of the toughest individuals I know, including people. She has been through so much. I just want to give her a fighting chance. I understand that she may not be here next week, but I just want her to have more of a say in it. We will hang out today, spend some time sitting in the yard.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:13 PM

Lisa, you know how much Indy can handle. I am glad that you are having enough clarity of thought to think all these thing through. You will know when Indy can't handle any more and you will be with her. So until that time comes enjoy your time together. Hanging out in the yard sounds like a great thing, the fresh air will be good for both of you.

Sending more hugs.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Karin
I mean, it COULD be a brain tumor, but until they do the MRI, they don't know for sure, so could it possibly be something else? Maybe the blood tests will reveal something.


The blood test might reveal something about the digestion, which she kept discounting. In the rare case if it were Addison's, that would be huge.

She also mentioned several times whether I was keeping her here thinking of me, and not her, and I know what she was saying, but she wasn't hearing me. And no, I am not ready to let her go. I will NEVER EVER EVER be ready to let her go. That will be the hardest thing I will have ever done in my whole entire life. But I think she will tell me if I listen to her. And we still ahve a few stones left unturned, maybe.
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:14 PM

I am so glad that she is eating something. I hope she is able to keep it down. Enjoy your precious time with your sweet girl today. I am with Diane; you have truly gone the extra (100) mile(s). She might be one of the toughest individuals you know, but YOU are one of the toughest individuals I know. You guys are a team, and I think it is you that makes her so strong and it is she that makes you so strong. If there is anyone at all who could pull through something like this, it is the two of you!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val
Lisa, you know how much Indy can handle. I am glad that you are having enough clarity of thought to think all these thing through. You will know when Indy can't handle any more and you will be with her. So until that time comes enjoy your time together. Hanging out in the yard sounds like a great thing, the fresh air will be good for both of you.

Sending more hugs.


Thank you for your kind words Val. I hope that you are right and that I am able to do best by her.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Lexi
I am so glad that she is eating something. I hope she is able to keep it down. Enjoy your precious time with your sweet girl today. I am with Diane; you have truly gone the extra (100) mile(s). She might be one of the toughest individuals you know, but YOU are one of the toughest individuals I know. You guys are a team, and I think it is you that makes her so strong and it is she that makes you so strong. If there is anyone at all who could pull through something like this, it is the two of you!


Thank you Cheryl teary
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:20 PM

Has she had any heart worm meds of late? Just a far out idea but?

http://www.houstoncollierescue.org/collie_health_articles/heartwormtreatmentaftercare.html
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:25 PM

I hope for some good days ahead yet...... Enjoy your day in the yard with some warm sunshine. hugging
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:31 PM

Still thinking of you and Indy today. hugging
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:32 PM

Has she had any heart worm meds of late? Just a far out idea but?

http://www.houstoncollierescue.org/collie_health_articles/heartwormtreatmentaftercare.html
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:32 PM

I am so sorry to hear this frown
I know you love her so dearly and she loves you, and you will do everything you can that is best for Indy. She knows you are doing all you can... she can sense it I am sure. I hope you both have a peaceful day hanging out and that her gagging lets up. Tears for you and Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Has she had any heart worm meds of late? Just a far out idea but?

http://www.houstoncollierescue.org/collie_health_articles/heartwormtreatmentaftercare.html



All ideas are welcome, this is Indy we are talking about wub

I have been told that the heartworms would show up on her heart ultrasound. She is on HW preventative (I know, no guarantees!)



Kathy, I hope for that too. Thank you Shawn hugging
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:36 PM

The most important observations are the following:

1.Keep an eye on the gums; they should be pink. If they get very red or white, along with listlessness, call us and take the dog to the vet: the dog may have a secondary infection (red gums) or anemia/shock (white gums) and need quick intervention.

2.Pay close attention to combination of lethargy, increased respiration, restlessness, and coughing; if you note these symptoms after treatment, call us and take the dog to the clinic. She will probably be put on Prednisone and will respond quickly.


3.Watch for vomiting or any bloody discharge combined with listlessness, fever, rapid breathing/heart rate, and pale gums. Although extremely rare, also watch for hindquarter paralysis and urinary incontinence. With the symptoms in (3), which are life-threatening, the dog goes immediately to the nearest HSS Clinic because the signs point to embolism (worm clot from the die-off of the parasites during treatment); the doctors will keep her overnight, possibly a couple of days or even a week, put her on IV to hydrate her, sometimes oxygen if she's in distress, and give her cortisone injections to break up the clot. We will assist with all decisions for treatments in the clinics and cover the medical expenses.
Posted By: shepnterrier

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
I just finished talking to the vet. Top of the list is brain tumor. Spend a long time discussing, if you aren't going to do the mri and treat, put her out of her misery now.

Oh Lisa, I am deeply sorry to hear this. If she has a brain tumor and it's large, she might have a severe headache, too, from the pressure. Poor, poor, sweet old dog. And you, just as much. hugging

Many years ago, after I had to let my heart dog go at thirteen and a half years, someone said to me that I was a fool to keep attaching myself to animal friends as their lives are so much shorter than ours. It wasn't exactly the most sensitive remark one could make in the situation, ..., but it stuck. Since then, I've teamed up with several other dogs and cats, aware of the screaming pain that inevitably awaits me at an end that will most likely come before my own. Our lives are infinitely richer for being with them, even with the knowledge that their lives are so much shorter than ours.

We do our very best to recognize the time when a dog or cat suffers without reasonable chance of improvement. It is an honest situation, we are fortunate that no law requires an animal to stay at a hospital with feeding tubes stuck in and drugged to unconsciousness to stop the pain.

I personally choose to ask my vets for their perspective on chances of improvement and quality of life, ask them to be straightforward about it, and I listen to them carefully. Ultimately I am accountable to my dog and her well being and dignity. I never saw any meaning in the end, neither for my animals nor for me, that life is finite is just the way life is.

I wish you strength, and may the deep love you have for your dog carry both of you through this difficult time and guide your decisions wisely. You are not alone hugging
Posted By: Chris Wild

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:40 PM

Oh, Lisa, I'm so sorry to hear this. Poor Indy and poor you. hugging
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
3.Watch for vomiting or any bloody discharge combined with listlessness, fever, rapid breathing/heart rate, and pale gums. Although extremely rare, also watch for hindquarter paralysis and urinary incontinence. With the symptoms in (3), which are life-threatening, the dog goes immediately to the nearest HSS Clinic because the signs point to embolism (worm clot from the die-off of the parasites during treatment); the doctors will keep her overnight, possibly a couple of days or even a week, put her on IV to hydrate her, sometimes oxygen if she's in distress, and give her cortisone injections to break up the clot. We will assist with all decisions for treatments in the clinics and cover the medical expenses.


Did they look into a blood clot as a possibility? Humans (and I'm assuming, dogs) can get blood clots without it being related to heartworms.... I think coughing is a symptom. Just trying to throw out any and all possibilities.
Posted By: Vinnie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:43 PM

hugging
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
The most important observations are the following:

1.Keep an eye on the gums; they should be pink. If they get very red or white, along with listlessness, call us and take the dog to the vet: the dog may have a secondary infection (red gums) or anemia/shock (white gums) and need quick intervention.

2.Pay close attention to combination of lethargy, increased respiration, restlessness, and coughing; if you note these symptoms after treatment, call us and take the dog to the clinic. She will probably be put on Prednisone and will respond quickly.


3.Watch for vomiting or any bloody discharge combined with listlessness, fever, rapid breathing/heart rate, and pale gums. Although extremely rare, also watch for hindquarter paralysis and urinary incontinence. With the symptoms in (3), which are life-threatening, the dog goes immediately to the nearest HSS Clinic because the signs point to embolism (worm clot from the die-off of the parasites during treatment); the doctors will keep her overnight, possibly a couple of days or even a week, put her on IV to hydrate her, sometimes oxygen if she's in distress, and give her cortisone injections to break up the clot. We will assist with all decisions for treatments in the clinics and cover the medical expenses.


Bianca - I believe that this is for aftercare for heartworm treatment - when a dog throws a clot of worms - it would have to be really advanced HW disease, which would show up on yearly/bi-yearly HW tests and chest x-rays (enlargement in heart, stuff on the lungs) is my guess - but I could be wrong.

Thinking of Indy in her yellow rain cape...
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:49 PM

Karin, blood clot is on the list with the homeopathic vet, as is tumor and herniated disk. I don't think that anything is completely clear yet. I wish these vets would stop giving her toxic things so we can see the picture more clearly, like how she is today. A mess, but resting peacefully.

Vinnie and Chris, thank you.

shepnterrier, I certainly am all the richer and better for having Indy here - I don't look forward to her final lesson though. I did ask the vet what to expect if she is right, which, isn't pretty.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:52 PM

One of the local vet places in town just called. They are fully booked today, but are squeezing Indy in for acupunture at 10:30. Best get ready. I look a mess....told them I wouldn't be shower and shaved wink , but we'd be ther with bells on.
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 04:57 PM

Lisa -

Did the major gagging and drooling problems happen after she ate the large piece of bagel? I realize the neurological symptoms might be from something totally different, but I'm still wondering about that bagel being lodged at her lower esophagus or duodenum, from the way her x-ray looked. Does she only gag when she tries to eat or drink something? (I did sent you a PM, but I know your plate is full right now) -

It's good that she's resting comfortably for now hugging
Posted By: shepnterrier

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val
If you think an Ultra Sound would help you find out what is wrong with Indy, check if there are any Reproduction Specialist Vets in your area. Call them and ask if they could do an UltraSound for you. They all have machines and are skilled at using them.


A clinic that is specialized in reproductive medicine might not be the best choice to take an u/s to check for a possible brain tumor. We once took a senior foster chi to a cardiologist at a teaching hospital for a cardio ultrasound and asked him to check her abdomen as well for a spay, since he was at it already. He said as a cardiologist he wouldn't know the best angle to take an u/s of another area than the heart. I was grateful for his honesty. It takes specialist skill to know how to take the u/s depending on the area of the body and diagnostic challenge, in addition to the skill of interpreting the image. But maybe that clinic has an oncologist on staff, too, I second Val, it's worth asking. If you decide to have an u/s taken.

The area of her body that is ultrasounded is shaved for the contact gel to be applied and the u/s reader to have skin contact. Something vet hospitals sometimes don't think of telling owners

It should not happen ever that a vet gives a drug to a dog with the MDR1 mutation before checking the drug's break down pathway. I am deeply sorry this happened to Indy. These mistakes happen at any clinic, human and animal, I would not dismiss the teaching hospital for it. As Val said, owners are in some cases more aware of its implications for a particular drug. I would think the vet is unhappy, too, now that she knows, and hopefully will have learned to be more thorough with checking drug pathways next time. But that doesn't help now. Maybe the MDR1 alert kits with red alerts on top of the dog's vet records and a tag on the collar help, but even they are no guarantee.

Hugs.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 05:28 PM

hugging for Indy, I pray the appointment helps determine something.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 05:33 PM

Pat, I missed the notify on the pm! I will check it in a minute.

Based on my concerns and yours, ultrasound at 2pm. I forgot there there is a non-certified u/s person at the dogs' regular clinic. That will work here!!

Gotta get going, you all are THE BEST!
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 05:35 PM

Quote:
A clinic that is specialized in reproductive medicine might not be the best choice to take an u/s to check for a possible brain tumor.


I might be wrong, but I was assuming the ultrasound was to look at Indy's abdomen. As in humans, I would think once the fontanelles ("soft spots") of the skull are closed, as they would be in an adult, ultrasound cannot be used for evaluation of the brain. The skull blocks the sounds waves - same reason the bones cannot be evaluated with ultrasound.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 06:09 PM

We will be waiting for an update. goodluck
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 06:31 PM

Wishing Miss Indy some good luck.

shepterrier, I suggested the UltraSound at the Reproduction Vet for the stomach area. They are pretty adapt at reading UltraSounds in that area of the body. I suggested it as an avenue to an UltraSound machine if she couldn't find another one.

Lisa and Indy I will be checking back in on you guys. Sounds like you have a lot of things to do today.

Hugs.
Posted By: Shilohsmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 09:01 PM

Lisa, I'm so sorry to read about Indy. I pray for strength for you during this awful time. On page 12 you posted the x-rays and I do see something strange. There's something that appears like a hook on the second x-ray that appears different than the first. Please go back and count the vertebrae from right to left on the lower pic, under 11 you will see the 'hook' I'm referring to.

I don't come here often and usually just to check on dogs that have passed or health issues, but if there is anything I can do real life (I'm here in the SF Bay Area), please don't hesitate to let me know. I also have exceptional vets that I would trust everything with...maybe they could help???

I'm very sorry for the experience you had at UC Davis. I'll throw something out there (long shot I'm sure) but maybe try some home made chicken soup. Ironically I've sceen this work wonders at times.

My thoughts and prayers are with you. Please let me know if there is anything I can do. I'll come back and check on this thread or you can pm me and I'll look for that.

Take care,
Rosa
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 09:25 PM

I gave her the first homeopathic remedy dose this morning about 7 am. Since then, she has gagged only twice. First when the acu vet was pushing on her abdomen, and just now when she was drinking some juice. HUGE if I can feed her, there is still a bit of hope - I smiled today about that smile

She tolerated the acu very well - normally she is too sensitive. (They also do intravenous vit C cancer therapy there, cool) the vet was great, and she gave me some pointers on what I really need to have. For exapmle, she was surprised that no one has shot cervical xrays. She said that it's no substitute for what you can see on an MRI, but sometimes if there is a tumor you can see part the bone has been eroded away by the tumor. The chiro that did Indy's initial adjustment said that xrays can be good at showing space-occupying tumors.

Weird thing - last night the homeopathic vet when I was talking to UCD. I told her I was wondering about blockage and running over to UCD. She said that was interesing because the remedy she picked was very good for blockages. She prescribe Nux V. 30C, two doses, 12 hrs apart.

Poor Max, he just doesn't understand why he is always left behind lately.

Cr*p, fell asleep writing this, gotta get to the u/s.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 09:27 PM

hang in there, this sounds like a positive approach:)
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 09:34 PM

Spoke too soon, she's spitting up the liquid breakfast from about 9:30this morning. Drat!
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 10:30 PM

hugging Sending all my best positive thoughts to you and Indy. Can she have a anti-nausea type med?
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 10:36 PM

darn::((((((((
Posted By: LifeAsMe

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 10:40 PM

What about Zantac or some anti-acid med?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:00 PM

Most of the anti-nausea are mdr1, but in lower doses she may handle them. I will see first how she does with the remedy. Oh, Davis did give me enough carafate for a couple of days, though I haven't used it yet - she wouldn't have held it down.

Got here and the vet called and got Indy's report from UCD, so the appt today started by them saying the same thing - that there isn't a point to the xrays, etc. The vet said that in her determination, it wasn't the best use of my money. (Where is the independent thinking here?) I told them before I had to make the decision to whether or not my dog needs to be euthanized, I needed to know certain things and whether or not they are worth my money at that point should be my decision. Tough start, but we are communicating better now - they are starting with cervical xrays.

I think her temp is increasing - 100-ish on Sat , 101-ish on Sun, and 102-ish today. Still normal, but the trend is a concern.

Why does this have to be so difficult. I guess I have to get set up with a new vet. This once a week thing is harming my dogs.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:03 PM

cervical xrays sounds like a good plan, fingers crossed it shows something.

Is she still on the scullcap type meds for relaxing her throat?
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:07 PM

Lisa, I "think" it's okay to give Pepto Bismol. I asked about that at one time, but don't remember if the response was from WSU or my vet. It's the Loperamide in Immodium that's the problem and Pepto doesn't have that.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:08 PM

She's on nothing really since I can't get or keep anything down her. I need to feed meals, as I believe that if she were on doxy, it would help.

I bought some Nupro silver at the acu vet - figure I can add that to the liquid-ish meal to help get some nutrients in her. I hope it's not too harsh on the stomach, given without solid food.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:08 PM

These vets shouldn't make everything so hard.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:13 PM

I realise she has food intolerances but would one of your usual vets (who know you best) set you up with an IV feed line? Just to be able to get some nutrients and calories in?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 09/30/10 11:39 PM

Bianca, that's an excellent idea. The unfortunate part is that some of that requires hospitalization, and I'm not willing to do that at this point. If I have a short time with her, I just can't stand the thought of her being at the vets.

Kris, pepto is okay, you're right. Immodium is the bad one.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 12:01 AM

Sigh..... hope the cervical xray shows no tumor.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 12:27 AM

how about some baby food????
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 12:44 AM

Quote:
How many different ways can a person's heart be broken?


Oh, Lisa, you lost me here for awhile until the tears stopped running.

I want to have something wonderfully comforting to say to you, but I know the best thing is when Indy rests or keeps a little nutrish down.

Let Indy know all the followers you both have here so she will know where all the warm e-massage and hugs are coming form.

I will be one of many following Indy's story here.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 12:50 AM

Lisa, sending you comfort and hugs.
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 12:51 AM

[quote=PositiveDog.

I will be one of many following Indy's story here.
[/quote]

me, too

take care
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 01:02 AM

Make Sure They Get Enough Fluids


If your dog is vomiting or has diarrhea, her chances of dehydrating increase. With diarrhea, concentrate on replacing her fluids, but you can also try human kaolin or other diarrhea mixtures to control her bowel movements. With vomiting, give her a half a teaspoon of milk of magnesia to help the problem. If you have doubts, check with your vet before giving her these substances.

In any case, if she appears not be drinking on her own, give her frequent small doses of glucose and water, salt and water, or just plain water by pouring liquid into her mouth from a small bottle or using a syringe without the needle or even a turkey baster to squirt it in. One of the easiest ways to accomplish this is inserting the liquid between the outer surfaces of her molars and her cheek. Place your finger in that space and pull her cheek out slightly to make a "pocket," then pour or squirt small amounts inside. This works best if you tilt your dog's muzzle up and hold it there until you remove your finger and she swallows. Be careful not to raise the muzzle too high or give her too much because she might choke.

Antacid/Laxative:
Milk of Magnesia (magnesium hyroxide) Ė 2 to 5 ml per pound orally every 4 to 6 hours (antacid) or 7 to 25 ml. per pound orally once only (laxative)


Might be worth looking into? hugging
Posted By: scott54

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 01:13 AM

Hey Lisa T:

I am heart broken to hear about your Indy. I was wondering when I didn't hear back from you what happened . . . Jakoda sent me your link. I truly wish you the best with her! You have been so AWESOME to Enya, I truly hope a little karma can go back to you for all that you did to help my family with our sick pup. Please take care of yourself and your best friend, and know that you have Enya and her family praying for you and Indy.

Peace . . . Scott (fatboy4ever)
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 01:50 AM

Hey scott! Please stay and sojourn a while on this forum. You must be a friend or acquaintance of Lisa and she needs all the friend she can get right now.

Paws are crossed for Indy.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 02:12 AM

Sending more positive vibes to Indy and strength vibes to Lisa.

I think we need a group hug smiley like this one maybe.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 03:01 AM

I am liking the group hug and I am not a demonstrative person either. But Lisa needs one now.

I am heading off to bed in a few minutes and I hope there is good new when I check in tomorrow.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:34 AM

Wishing for a very restful, peaceful night for Indy and Lisa both. peacesign
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:52 AM

Just getting on line--was driving for 7.5 hours today and am now at my mom's.

Is Lisa at the vet right now with Indy? Am confused about what tests were being done today.

I used to give Massie pepto. It was very messy from the bottle but now there are pills that are easier to give. Nux vomica is generally the remedy of choice for vomiting though.

If you can find this stuff and there is nothing in it that will hurt her, it worked very well for Cleo when she was in dire straits: http://www.homevet.com/osc/product_info.php?products_id=28

Vitamin B12 shots also helped her.

Wishing for a miracle here, Lisa. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 06:07 AM

I think I crammed about a week's worth of stuff into a day.

I"ve been in contact with the homeopathic vet, the chiropractor, been to acupuncture, the regular vet and talked to the UC Davis vet. And I think I've done more laundry in a day than I often do in a week, since she's usually not outside when she has to go pee (thank goodness for waterproof mattress pads).

The remedy appears to still be working. As long as Indy is eating or drinking, there is no gagging, and almost no dripping saliva. But she hasn't been eating, and that's where the problem begins.

After the rocky start at the vet, we did okay, and it turned out to be a very good vet visit. Abdominal ultrasound was clear - everything looked fine wrt blockage or anything glaring. That area by the duodenom that looked funny on the last xray, she said she doesn't get a good shot at it on the ultrasound. There could be inflammation around that inlet (or ulceration I guess!).

The cervical xrays did not show evidence of a tumor, but it won't show one in the skull I guess. But so far so good. What it did show, is that since Saturday, she has developed Megasophagus (http://www.marvistavet.com/html/megaesophagus.html ). I am convinced it is from the gagging and hacking, maybe 6 hours of it after the UCD appt. So now I have to slurry her food, and try to keep her straight up while feeding.

She is doing this weird thing with her neck, holding it out, then moving it in slow motion in weird ways. I'm thinking that this is a good thing, but it's kinda weird. The homeopathic vet did say that she thought the acu would be very critical.

One of the best things from this visit is that I know have lots of supportive care, and there they act as if she might have a fighting chance. I have more Carafate to protect her stomach, I have fluids (she was very dehydrated, how could the UCD vet not see this?), we talked about anti-nausea drugs and strategies if needed. They talked about me running out of medicine (like fluids) in six days and re-evaluating, rather than the alternative. Eek, I have to give fluids!

I really need to create a schedule, and my head isn't organized enough right now. But now I need to slurry her food, feed every couple of hours for awhile, while she is as upright as I can get her.

Did I mention that her eyes are messed up? She has uevitis now, and doesn't see well, doesn't blink much so gunk is forming on the eyes, and is missing a lot of the normal eye reflexes. I am hoping that that is recoverable....that would really suck for her to lose her eyesight.

I talked with the UCD vet about the bloodwork. Her liver values are all very high. Her CPK, which rises with muscle disease or wasting, cancer, etc. is about 7 times the value that it should be. There are some "toxic" white blood cells, I guess they are responding to something in the body. The UCD vet wants me to see a neurologist (since the CPK can indicate neuromuscular disease), who will do further testing (aka MRI) and treatment (typically steroids). I am this woman's worst client apparently. She went on about my reluctance to treat and how I am not seeing the situation clearly. I mentioned to her that it seems, last time I looked, all those neuromuscular disorders are treated roughly the same way, with steroids, thyroid if needed, and a couple of vitamins, and she agreed with that. I kept telling her that I agreed with most of what she said, only I am thinking about how long I will treat using each option before moving on to the next. But she doesn't get it, since to her, there is only one treatment.

She said that Indy's current problem is very different than the problem I say that she has had all her life. Unless there is a tumor, I'm not really sure that's true.

I need to get her digestive system so that she can hold down a meal, so I can get her supplements in her. Without them, she is even spiraling more.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 06:12 AM

Ruth, Indy had acupuncture today, and then later saw the regular vet for xrays, ultrasound, and fluids. I also talked to a couple of other folks. Now I'm going to rest a bit before I work some more.

I got some meat and veggie slurry into Indy earlier, and it's been almost 2 hours and she hasn't vomited yet. She's looking like she wants to, but I tell her to breath, and burp if she has to, and then she moves funny, and puts her head back down. I am going to try a little bit more food in a bit. That's the huge part.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 06:45 AM

Thanks for the update Lisa. It does seem at least hopeful although mega-e plus the eye stuff is very worrisome, especially since she can't hold herself up right now. I am so glad that she is holding down the food that you gave her. I know how terrifying that can be as this is what Cleo goes through from time to time. The nux has always worked very well for her too.

Have you ever given fluids before? It is much better if you warm then a little, much more comfortable for the animal. A narrower gauge needle also makes things easier, especially if she is very dehydrated (as the skin gets super tough when they're dehydrated). Do you know the tests to do for hydration? One is to pinch and twist the skin and it should bounce right back (do it on yourself to see the normal response) and the other is to touch their gums and see if they're tacky. I apologize if you already know this...just putting it out there since I know you're really tired. Since she has a heart condition it's very important that she gets just enough fluids without overloading her. How much did they tell you to give her at a time? For a cat it's 10ml/pound but it may be different for an animal with a heart condition.

Can you rig something to keep her upright to feed her? Or prop her up somehow?

Vets can be so single minded. I don't understand why it's so foreign to them that they need to treat each case individually and not in some textbook way.

I hope you get a little sleep. It is so hard on the body to be under the kind of stress you are and sleeping in such short shifts. Is there anyone that could come over and watch her for a while so you could sleep for more than a few hours?
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 09:39 AM

Just checking in and sending my thoughts and prayers hugging
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 01:43 PM

Busy is an understatement, wow. Does the Mega-E point to myasthenia gravis then? Maybe?

Hoping she can eat...
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 01:52 PM

I have absolutely no advice to offer. I am thankful that Indy's condition may be recoverable and that the vets are at least looking to the future and not giving up on her. I hope the fluids, feeding and meds help her.

It just amazes me how fast they can slide but they can bounce back too. Bounce back Indy so you can challenge Max for the title 'bounce back kid'.

I hope today is a better day.
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 01:58 PM

Hope you had a restful night and hoping for some good news today!

Last night I was thinking about Indy and I tried to put all of her symptoms together in human medicine. This might be a long shot and I didn't even know if dogs get it, but after I did a little investigating, dogs can get a syndrome that is similar and I'm wondering about Sjogren's Syndrome.

It's an autoimmune disease that can cause uveitis, ataxia and esophageal achalasia (which is a narrowing at the junction of the stomach and esophagus due to a neurological abnormality) causing choking and regurgitation.
This is an abstract of an article tying the three things together:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17221876

From what I've read, people say that acupuncture helps their symptoms, so that's a good thing!
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 02:34 PM

Lisa at least you have some answers and a plan.

Ruth with Indy's heart problems I don't know if they are suggesting Sub-Q fluids or just getting fluids in via mouth.

Sending supporting hugs to you and Indy.

Give Max a big hug also because I know he is worried.
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 02:54 PM

Quote:
achalasia (which is a narrowing at the junction of the stomach and esophagus due to a neurological abnormality) causing choking and regurgitation.


Just to clarify - the narrowing or achalasia at the gastroesophageal junction can cause dilatation of the rest of the esophagus, resulting in secondary megaesophagus.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:08 PM

Internet was down for most of yesterday so I didn't get a chance to check in til just now. Sounds like you've been through the mill over the last day, Lisa. But I'm glad things seem to be steadying a bit and that you've got a game plan for Miss Indy. We continue to think about you guys and hope for the best. Sending more good thoughts and strength your way.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:14 PM

I am still catching up with responding to folks here - I can often read with the phone, but not always post. I will have more detailed follow-up later tonight probably.

She has had some bad gagging and I guess mega-symptoms. We had a talk, me and her, and we are still trying to figure this thing out. If we can make some progress in terms of feeding and getting supplements in her, we can fight this. If not, we are screwed.

I have a week of "activities" planned for her. Tuesday is the first appt with her long term vet. I have decided that we will evaluate all info then, and she will either get acupuncture, or allowed to finally rest peacefully. OMG, I can't believe I wrote that.

I am done acting cautiously in terms of her nutrition and treatment, time to be aggressive and try to kick some butt. I told her this morning that I will keep fighting until she tells me to stop. I was trying to syringe feed her a slurry, and it was a disaster, she will lick some up, but she chewed small pieces of duck treat with gusto. So I guess I just gotta think more out of the box. Maybe chewing her food is do-able. I am playing with proping up her front end with a pillow.

Okay, off to work. TGIF.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:15 PM

Just checking in and sending lots of positive thoughts your way!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:27 PM

I don't know if I've said it lately, but, everyone, thank you so much, for everything.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 04:54 PM

Hoping Miss Indy has a better day today and know that we are all thinking of you both. Sending prayers hugging
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 05:21 PM

Still reading, still checking in, and sending hugging and extra powerful strength zooming Indy's and your way! Come on Indy girl, we know you can do this!
Posted By: myamom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 05:22 PM

gosh......thinking about you and keeping you in my prayers...

hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 05:47 PM

Lisa I think that is a good plan, as long as Indy is willing to try and fight you keep going with her. I hope she can keep some food and fluids down that would be a big help.

Sending you and Indy some more strength vibes because I am pretty sure you gals used them all up already.
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 06:43 PM

Lisa,

We should all have you on our side when things are dicey.

Indy you're a good girl, do what you can.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 08:28 PM

Does this xray look scary, up at the stop, with maybe a smashed disc?

Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 10:00 PM

I know nothing about x-rays, but Indy has the cutest ears!
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 11:29 PM

That I do not know. I can't read an xray. Just keeping you guys in my thoughts.
Posted By: 3K9Mom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/01/10 11:56 PM

Checking in to see how you're doing, Lisa.

I see degenerative changes in much of the Cervical spine. Is there a lateral view as well?
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 12:06 AM

Wishing only the very best for Indy. I know this is so very difficult for you, Lisa. hugging
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 12:15 AM

Wow - what a journey. Indy is in good hands with you, Lisa. You have taken her this far - don't second guess yourself. Do what yo feel is best at the time.

You are both doing the best you can do. paw
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 12:46 AM

Just got home, she's still alive, but needs a bath.

If she had a diaper, she might be more dirty? I know it really bothers her. She will still bark when she's ready to go to the bathroom, most of the time.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 01:29 AM

hugging Love Miss Indy.
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 01:59 AM

Just thinking of you and Indy, Lisa. Hoping that you can get some rest tonight and that Indy will feel a little better by tomorrow. My thoughts are with you and we're all still sending as many healing thoughts as we can... hugging
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 02:50 AM

Just popping in - hoping for a good night for you both.

Not sure if a diaper would smoosh? Would boxers work? Something with a maxi - pad? I am not sure. http://www.lovable-golden-retriever.com/canine-fecal-incontinence.html at the bottom of the article some tips and hints, products to get some ideas from: http://www.seniorpetproducts.com/catalog/dog-diapers-c251.html?gclid=CLud05CIs6QCFYs65Qod111NyA and more: http://handicappedpets.com/www/index.php/keep-pets-dry.html

Somehow this came up - IVDD: http://www.dachshund-dca.org/discbook.html

Take care!
Posted By: TMarie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:10 AM

I too am just checking in.

Lisa, you virtually held my hand with Jake, and again with my crew just recently. You have such a big heart, and are always willing to lend a hand and help others. Please know we are here for you, and we are hoping for the best.

Keep your strength and try and get some rest if you can.

{{hugs}}
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:24 AM

Just checking in to let you know I'm thinking of you and Indy. Hope she's having a better evening and that you get some rest tonight. hugging
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:11 AM

Lisa -

That cervical spine x-ray is so different from how a human neck looks!! As someone else asked, is there a lateral view? That would give more information as far as narrowing of the disc spaces, etc.

Hope you and Indy have a peaceful weekend!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 05:10 AM

Pat, this morning I pm'ed you the link to the photobook album and password for all the xrays, I think. Here are the links to all the xrays:

9-30-2010:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-30-10RLateralSpine.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-30-10VDSpine2.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-30-10VDSpine1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-30-10VDAbdomen.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-30-10RLatAbdomen.jpg



9-25-2010:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-25-10VDThorax2.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-25-10VDThorax1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/medical/Indy%20medical/Indy9-25-10RLatThorax.jpg



The links show the names of the xrays, I didn't want to insert them all here.

I'll be back in a minute, Indy calls...
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 05:46 AM

Okay, just gave my first round of SubQ fluids, yesterday we did it at the vet clinic.

I am beginning to be convinced that this is a disk issue. It's not something that just started, there were subtle signs that are greatly exaggerated now - shuffle steps in the rear, shaking and funny wrist stuff in the front. Jean, that link looks really interesting, but my eyes are so blurry, that when I got to the good part, I just couldn't comprehend any of the words. I am tired, and I have been crying a lot.

If things don't change, she will starve to death. I am frightened to fight her with the syringe, because I don't want to jam the neck any more than it is. Today she is not eating. I think they jammed up her neck more when they did the xrays and ultrasound - I can't imagine that it wouldn't. And that slam I did with her the other day probably didn't help either. Her regular chiro is meeting us tomorrow morning for a tune up.

I stopped by the health food store on the way home and picked up a few liquid things, including liver support and some b-vitamins, eye drops, etc. I think she told me no more drugs, but she might have to compromise on some of that. She either needs pred or metacam, both a difficult choice at this venture, but I'm going with the metacam.

I have been trying to find out information on that xray. No one seems concerned about that area. I called the clinic and the radiologist report didn't even mention it (did he even see it then?), and had a vet there pull up the xray and look for herself, she was not concerned. The newer chiro that adjusted her didn't see a concern with it. I don't know what her regular chiro thinks, I don't think she has seen it. The homeopathic vet is concerned about the same area as me, the C2-C3 area where it is rotated.

I went to the premiere ER clinic in town, with a print out of that xray, and a disk of all the xrays, wanting a consult with a doctor/neuro person. They wouldn't talk to me without Indy there. But I was very insistent, and they found a very nice and helpful neurology tech to talk to me. It may or may not be a problem, since it's a 3D image and some pieces are hard to visualize. For surgery, they would require the MRI, and with Indy's age and heart condition, and now especially the esophagus problem, she would be a very poor candidate for surgery, even if it were a disk, or a brain tumor. She did suggest that we test for myasthenia gravis, which I will bring up with the regular vet on Tuesday. That was probably one of the most earnest conversations that I have had since this whole thing has started with someone in the veterinary community, and it was with a great tech, and it was free smile

I gave her her new homeopathic remedy. One dose of Belladona 30c, which she has had before and done well with.

Can the fluids help move things through the colon? She is finally starting to move stuff - she barks and wants to be taken out, what a clean girl wub They are small little things, I would be happy to let her go where she is, in her pen on the waterproof pads, but then she keeps barking, and her throat is already sore, and she jerks her neck.

Her head is severely shrunk and she is scary looking. I don't want her to starve to death before we know what we are doing. Today was a really hard day at work frown
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 05:52 AM

Originally Posted By: scott54
Hey Lisa T:

I am heart broken to hear about your Indy. I was wondering when I didn't hear back from you what happened . . . Jakoda sent me your link. I truly wish you the best with her! You have been so AWESOME to Enya, I truly hope a little karma can go back to you for all that you did to help my family with our sick pup. Please take care of yourself and your best friend, and know that you have Enya and her family praying for you and Indy.

Peace . . . Scott (fatboy4ever)


Scott, so glad to see you over here, and thank you so much for the good wishes.

(Just so folks know, Scott is on the old board, his Enya fighting a dicey battle of her own: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/preparing-say-good-bye/142129-my-dear-friend.html )
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 05:56 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
Have you ever given fluids before? It is much better if you warm then a little, much more comfortable for the animal. A narrower gauge needle also makes things easier, especially if she is very dehydrated (as the skin gets super tough when they're dehydrated). Do you know the tests to do for hydration? One is to pinch and twist the skin and it should bounce right back (do it on yourself to see the normal response) and the other is to touch their gums and see if they're tacky. I apologize if you already know this...just putting it out there since I know you're really tired. Since she has a heart condition it's very important that she gets just enough fluids without overloading her. How much did they tell you to give her at a time? For a cat it's 10ml/pound but it may be different for an animal with a heart condition.

Can you rig something to keep her upright to feed her? Or prop her up somehow?



I can't prop her up, she's too fragile at this point, unless I'm there to hold her. I drape her across my lap when feeding, or against me, so she is at least angled the right way.

No, I've never done fluids. The acu vet said 300 (ml's?), but the vet place said 500 ml per day or 250 twice a day. I was thinking 250 once a day - she was peeing all over the place when I got home today, and that was with 250 ml last night. They gave me heavier guage needles, oops. Good idea about the warming.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:11 AM

SubQs definitely help with constipation because dehydration and constipation go hand in hand (or paw in paw). They also have electrolytes which usually perks the animal up, although if she's really dehydrated it will take more SubQs to perk her up. You see on the bag where there is another port? You can get B-vitamins and I think some other stuff to give with the SubQs to help get some vitamins into her. It's too bad a feeding tube isn't an option because it sounds like that would make things so much easier.

I understand how tired you are and how traumatic all of this is for you and for your 4 leggeds. Hang in there--you're doing a great job with Indy and she undoubtedly loves you very much.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Kayos
I have absolutely no advice to offer. I am thankful that Indy's condition may be recoverable and that the vets are at least looking to the future and not giving up on her. I hope the fluids, feeding and meds help her.

It just amazes me how fast they can slide but they can bounce back too. Bounce back Indy so you can challenge Max for the title 'bounce back kid'.


I hope today is a better day.


That would be nice smile
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:16 AM

Grrr...keep losing the internet signal.

250ml twice a day sounds about right. they do pee a ton from the SubQs but that is excellent because it is helping move the toxins out of the body. How is her hydration today? How much does she weigh now?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:24 AM

Misc thoughts...

Sjogern's Syndrome....not a bad thought.

years ago (approximately 11 years ago in fact), a vet told me that I could test and test and test, but we already knew what happened to her - she was damaged by her vaccines which created a neuromuscular disorder. It doesn't appear to have a name, but it's the same as all those syndromes. She has required uber nutrition and supplementation to get her thus far, and without that this past week, she is even spiraling faster. I was telling my sister tonight, it isn't supposed to end this way (hi sis frown )
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:28 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
Grrr...keep losing the internet signal.

250ml twice a day sounds about right. they do pee a ton from the SubQs but that is excellent because it is helping move the toxins out of the body. How is her hydration today? How much does she weigh now?


I don't know how much she weighs now. Saturday she was 34 pounds, but that seems like a long time ago. I don't know how to check for hydration - the skin doesn't seem much different, and her profuse salivation makes it difficult to check the gums. With the heart, I'm not sure if I should do 250 once or twice a day, or, say 300 ml once day.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:35 AM

I know that for cats with CRF and heart conditions they do less at a time so as to minimize the risk of fluid build-up.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:39 AM

Oddly enough I attended a lecture for my job last week about Sjogern's Syndrome. One of the main researchers is at my university and her presentation was part of Gender Week events. The symptoms sounded very different, although she was talking about people and not dogs.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
SubQs definitely help with constipation because dehydration and constipation go hand in hand (or paw in paw). They also have electrolytes which usually perks the animal up, although if she's really dehydrated it will take more SubQs to perk her up. You see on the bag where there is another port? You can get B-vitamins and I think some other stuff to give with the SubQs to help get some vitamins into her. It's too bad a feeding tube isn't an option because it sounds like that would make things so much easier.

I understand how tired you are and how traumatic all of this is for you and for your 4 leggeds. Hang in there--you're doing a great job with Indy and she undoubtedly loves you very much.


Thank you Ruth....

Oh, I may have mentioned, the UCD vet brought up a feeding tube, but said she wouldn't choose it for hospice care since I've chosen not to treat Indy since I didn't leave her there for the mri. I'm sure if she were left there, with the drugs that they would (did) pump into her, and the crappy food, she would be dead for sure.

I had been staying away from yogurt, thinking it produced phlegm, but it seems like a good option tonight. She keeps barking (well, her version of a bark) and jerking her head back - scares me.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:48 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
Oddly enough I attended a lecture for my job last week about Sjogern's Syndrome. One of the main researchers is at my university and her presentation was part of Gender Week events. The symptoms sounded very different, although she was talking about people and not dogs.


I think this is closest to myasthenia gravis, or of course, a tick disease. She's been off doxy and that doesn't bode well either.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
I know that for cats with CRF and heart conditions they do less at a time so as to minimize the risk of fluid build-up.


Thanks, makes sense. I'll have to figure out timing.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val
Give Max a big hug also because I know he is worried.



Worried and/or confused. Of course, the other part of the time he's ticked because he thinks that Indy is going cool places and he has to stay home.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:57 AM

She keeps barking - I so wish she would stop, or I at least knew what she was trying to say. I'm very frustrated - she is so restless and I don't know what she wants.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 07:52 AM

She is saying, "I love you mom."

Hugs.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 09:53 AM

Lisa, here is a page about checking hydration, just looked at heaps and they all seem to be the same.

http://www.suite101.com/content/is-my-dog-sick-how-to-check-a-dogs-vitals-a88860

Just sending you a pm

hugging and still praying for Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 01:10 PM

Chicken broth thumbup

I have flipped back to obstruction. Even if they found it, at this point, I'm not sure she could get through a surgery, everything is declining so rapidly.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 01:55 PM

It's very hard to sleep, when next to me there is a dog barking non-stop, with no voice. Her heart pumping so loudly it scares me. And I feel wholly inadequate because I'm not completely sure what it means. All her life I have understood her - perhaps my mind doesn't want to go there - we all know how these really long threads end teary
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 02:00 PM

I wish I knew what to say Lisa. hugging
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 02:14 PM

I'm so very sorry Lisa. hugging hugging hugging hugging hugging hugging hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 02:35 PM

Lisa sending you and Indy gal strength vibes. I am not a great person when it comes to looking a X-rays.

Hugs to you.
Posted By: AngelJ

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:01 PM

Sending hugs hugging to you and Indy.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:13 PM

*HUGS* to you and Indy, Lisa. I wish I had suggestions to offer. . . I am just wishing you and Indy the best and want you to know we've been thinking of you all week.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:22 PM

She's gone teary

I almost took her in last night, she was so uncomfortable. Her heart could tolerate all this without her meds.

It was so loud and so fast, I was afraid it was heart failure. I think the fluids and no heart drugs were too much. There was no color whatsoever in her gums when she was so uncomfortable - they were white. I didn't take her in, wasn't sure she would make the trip, and we had had enough of vet offices this last week. .


I just woke up. As she was uncomfortable last night after eating so much chicken soup, I held and rocked her as I kept her in an upright position so that she wouldn't gag. Then I had to sleep, I was so exhausted, it was 5:30 then, 1 and 1/2 hours ago. . I laid next to her - she kept barking now and again, but I hugged her and massaged and did Ttough as I fell asleep. .

The first thing I did when I woke up, was felt relief that she was resting easier. Since she was a pup, I always check her breathing when I wake up, it is so slow. I did the same this morning, and felt my heart stop too as the realization struck me.

I am just now starting to cry, the shock and enormity that my very best girl is no longer with me. I can't fathom the emptiness, how will I bear it? How come when I put my hand to her chest it is no longer moving, there is no give to that wonderful chest of hers - it wasn't supposed to end this way.

I had Max come over and smell, he took a sniff and quickly walked away.

I don't know what to do now, I am lost. I guess I call the vet about cremation. I am not yet ready to give her up. I will NEVER be ready, she is my heart wub
Posted By: LifeAsMe

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:29 PM

teary I'm so sorry, Lisa. hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:31 PM

Oh Lisa I am so sorry for your pain and loss. Both You and Indy did everything that you could, she just couldn't go on any longer. She was with you when she passed in the comfort of her home.

Hugs.
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:31 PM

Lisa, there are just no words to comfort when you experience this kind of loss. I am so sorry... I can barely type this as she was of "ours" - one of those special ones that we've all become attached to and loved from afar. She will be so missed...
Posted By: Jane Jean

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:35 PM

Lisa, I am so very sorry you are going thru this.hugging
Indy couldn't have had a better companion, you were her strength and comfort.
May she rest in peace and watch over you.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:36 PM

Lisa I am so very sorry teary You both tried so hard I have no words. You are in my thoughts and prayers. Be kind to yourself hugging hugging hugging
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:41 PM

Lisa -

I'm so sorry. You have to know that you did everything possible to help her. Unfortunately sometimes there's just nothing more we can do. You've both been through so much. Take the time to grieve and take care of yourself and Max. We're all here for you. hugging
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:45 PM

Oh Lisa, I am so deeply sorry about your loss of Indy! I am glad though that her final moments were spent at home with you. But what a harsh situation to wake up to teary Know we are here for you and thinking of you and wishing you comfort. . .
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 03:58 PM

Lisa,

Words are so inadequate at a time like this. Indy knew how much you loved her and chose to pass while you were sleeping. She will always be in your heart and in time you will hopefully be able to take comfort from all of the wonderful memories you shared.

My heart has broken like yours what seems like too many times in the past 20 years...we are all here for you any time you need us. hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:10 PM

Lisa for you and Max, RIP Indy grouphug grouphug grouphug
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:10 PM

It's too sad-every time it's different and every time, the same.

It's too sad.

Max will help you.

I'm sorry,
MJ
Posted By: TMarie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:14 PM

Lisa,

I wish I had some pretty words for you during this sorrowful time, but I don't. My heart breaks for you. I know how Indy was your heart, and you gave her a lifetime of love and companionship, she is return gave you her love, loyalty,trust, and heart. She may not be beside you now, but she will be forever in your heart.

As heartbreaking as this is, she chose to pass in the comfort of her home, after those last waking moments of you holding and hugging her.

I am so very sorry you have to go through this heartache.
hugging
Posted By: mspiker03

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:20 PM

I am so sorry Lisa.
Posted By: Vinnie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:20 PM

I'm sorry. hugging
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:20 PM

My warmest felt condolences dear Lisa. hugging Sweet Indy meant so much, and you did all you could for her. She is at peace as you bear this pain. What a loved dog with a wonderful life. Rest well, sweet Indy. butterfly angel butterfly May Max's love surround you now.
Posted By: Catu

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:20 PM

I am very, sorry Lisa, you fought too much with Indy imsorry
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:28 PM

Thank you so much everyone, I am so lost.

I think I must have woke when she passed. As times passes and the warmth leaves, it seems less like Indy. I have to look at her body, her face has been so tragic in these last days, and not what I want to remember.

She never got to wear her new Web Master Harness. It was the red one. She always looked good in red.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:30 PM

I am so sorry Lisa. My heart breaks for you. I so wanted this to be a long thread with a happy ending.
Posted By: Schnickle Fritz

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:30 PM

i am so sorry for your loss. there just are no words...
Posted By: LukesMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:36 PM

I am so sorry. There are no words to convey. She is at peace now. Hugs to you and Max.
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:38 PM

Oh no! Lisa, I'm so very sorry to hear this after you've been trying so hard to help her and to figure out what was wrong. And you never lost hope and tried everything in your power to help Indy. Sometimes there are things that they just can't recover from, no matter how much we try. She had a wonderful life with you and loved you very much. We're all here for you and share in your pain and sorrow.

Dave and I still remember Indy running on the beach at Fort Funston, the tiniest GSD mix in our group and definitely one of the most sensitive and sweet dogs we've ever had the pleasure to meet. I hope you don't mind me posting the picture Dave took of Indy that day.



Rest in peace, sweet Indy. You're in many, many people's thoughts today. angel
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:39 PM

I am so sorry for your loss. You both fought as hard as anyone possibly could have. Know that we are here for you always Lisa. Thinking of you. hugging

Run free at the bridge dear Indy. butterfly
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 04:54 PM

I am so sorry Lisa, you tried so hard. I know she felt your love and drew comfort from that as she passed. I think she is watching over you now.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:03 PM

I love that picture of my girl wub

When all is said and done, it may very well have been a brain tumor. And it has been there a long time if that is the case. Early this year I had a post about her paw knuckeling. Chances are the chiro kept her head straight and functioning and able to supply the nervous system for as long as it could. She was having periods where her legs would give out too. Doxy helped all that stuff, figured it was her tick stuff, but doxy also helps cancer.

I probably spent about $1500 in diagnostics and vet appts. I always wondered how people feel when they pay a lot of money and then the dog dies. While I would do some things differently if I had a crystal ball, I would have still done about the same things, and I don't regret any of it. From this day on, I know I tried my best to save her.

I am so glad that I didn't leave her at Davis and hand over her care in her last days. I would have regreted that finaincially, but so much more personally. She was the one that taught me to trust my instincts, and I honored her with that in her final days.

I will miss her dainty little paws. I always wondered how she held herself up with them wub
Posted By: Shilohsmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:05 PM

Lisa, I am so deeply sorry and saddened by your loss. I wish our words could offer some comfort but I realize the pain is just too great. Loosing a cherished dog is so unfair, their lifes are just too short compared to ours. Later when it hurts a little less, I hope you find comfort in the many wonderful memories of times you shared.

Healing hugs,
Rosa
Posted By: Kayla's Dad

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:17 PM

Lisa, I am so sorry for your loss.

That was a great picture of Indy at Fort Funston that Karin posted. I remember that get together and how much Indy enjoyed that adventure to the beach. I am glad we had the opportunity to meet such a sweet spirit.

Know that she is now pain free and watching over you and Max never far from your heart.
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:20 PM

I also remember the video you shared of Indy being chased by a cat. She was so cute! I loved watching that. She touched many of us.
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:24 PM

Ditto totally loving that video! Her little dainty walk/run as she was checking out her little kitty friend (who was enjoying the interaction with her as much as Indy was) was one of THE cutest videos I've ever seen! Makes me smile just to remember it. smile

wub you always, Indy girl!!!
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 06:25 PM

Lisa, I am glad she was with you and not at a Clinic where she was away from you. Indy had such a strong spirit she didn't need big paws to carry her, her spirit let her just float along. I think her barking last night was her way of telling you to hug and cuddle with her. She knew her time with you was coming to an end as much as both of you were fighting it, she wanted you to have no regrets, she wanted you to know that she wouldn't have done any thing different and she will always be your Indy girl. angel
Posted By: Sylv

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 09:02 PM

I am typing this through my tears - I am so sorry for your loss.
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 09:07 PM

Lisa, I am so very very sorry:(( I to, am glad she was with you and not a clinic, and i'm sure she knows you gave 110% to her and loved you for it.

May she rest in peace and will always be in your heart:((
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 10:25 PM

Lisa,

If love could have kept her here you would surely have had her forever. Instead, love gives them wings and Indy earned hers today.

I am so glad she was with you these last hard days.

Precious Indy, all our love to you on your new journey.

angel

Lisa, we are here for you and will continue to read anything you feel like posting about your sweet girl. Hugs to you and to Max.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 11:10 PM

Words are hard to find at a time like this. Indy was a very special, one-of-a-kind dog that I don't think any of us will forget. You did everything you could for her and she knows it. I can only imagine how much your heart aches. Hugs to you and Max during this difficult time. Rest in Peace, sweet Indy.
Posted By: Woodreb

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 11:18 PM

I am so sorry for your loss, especially after trying so hard to keep her going. It's good that she was with you until the end and I know that she knows how loved she was with you.
Posted By: AgilePaws

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/02/10 11:51 PM

Lisa, I just saw this thread and read through it now. I am so sorry for your tremendous loss of dear Indy. I hope that your many years of memories will provide you with comfort at this most difficult time. Please take care. hugging hugging hugging
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 12:02 AM

I am so sorry Lisa. What a heartbreak. You both did everything you could. Please take care.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 01:07 AM

Lisa, I have followed this thread from the beginning, wishing I was capable of contributing anything to help with dear Indy.

I am so, so sorry you have lost your brave little heart-girl. But her spirit and memories will last forever. She loved unconditionally and was cherished in return. She will patiently wait for you - free of all pain and suffering.

Run free, sweety Indy. butterfly
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:11 AM

Lisa, I am so very sorry for your loss. Indy was such a special, beautiful girl. My thoughts are with you. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:15 AM

I know that so many of you have lost treasured friends, and that I will get through this, but this is going to be really really hard. I feel physically ill.

I so appreciate all your words of support, and the wonderful words for Indy herself are so meaningful to me. She and I made such a great team - I feel like I've lost part of my identity.

I brought Max with me when I took Indy to the vet's. After she was loaded in the car, a good neighbor friend came over with her dog to say goodbye. I'm so glad that they said goodbye to my girl.

This is kinda graphic....but about half-way to the vet's, Max, who was in the back seat (Indy in the cargo area), started pacing and whining and trying to get in the front seat. I guess some of Indy's bodily fluids had drained out and he could really smell them, at least that's my best guess once we got to the vet's and I saw them too. She was propped up for her megasophagus, so I guess they didn't drain before.

My plan was to take Max to the park after that, and just find someplace quiet for him and I to spend some time. It didn't quite work out as planned, as he was pretty freaked - lots of panting and stress. We did go to a park, but he couldn't settle. We came home and he would have drank buckets of water if I had not stopped him, which is something he does when stressed. I pulled the water away and gave him a couple of gas-x, just in case.

I must still be in shock or denial to some degree, mostly feeling numb. The other times are just painful. It was not long ago that I was looking to replace her cherished leash. I just came across it; I will retire it now.
Posted By: Crooked Creek

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:20 AM

Oh so sorry and I feel so for you now.

rip
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:52 AM

Oh Lisa....hugging

That has got to be the hardest trip in the world. frown But how wonderful and special that your neighbor came by to say goodbye to her. Things like that are just so sweet and meaningful in times like these. wub They are the gestures that you remember forever and bring you a little peace in the darkest part of the night. Like I said before, you know you are not alone and we all care a great deal for Indy, but also for YOU. I am off and on the forum almost all the time and always here to talk to if you need me.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:00 AM

The first few days are really hard, especially when you have been caring for her night and day. Every little thing is the first time I did this without Indy and waking up in the mornings is especially tough. The best advice I have is to let yourself grieve but don't let yourself go over the edge. Consider thinking about a special ritual you might create in indy's honor and structure in some quality time each day for Max, who is also grieving and no doubt very worried about you. I find that getting myself out for long walks with the surviving dog is very therapeutic. hugging

Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:03 AM

Lisa, please try your very best to take good care of yourself right now. Drinking enough fluids, eating as well as you are able to. Max will find comfort in rutine. I'm keeping you warmly in my thoughts at this time.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
.... Every little thing is the first time I did this without Indy and waking up in the mornings is especially tough. ....



I'm already starting to notice this. Oh no, mornings will be hard, coming home from work *really* hard.

For 13 years I have had a blanket to cover the landing on the stairs where Indy liked to lay down and watch out the window. It feels as if I will never be able to remove it.

I will do the walking with Max, good for both of us. When I would be upset, Indy would get up and leave the room. Max comes closer. After these latest vet bills are paid off, he will start back with the homeopathy, and that will be good for him in every way.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:09 AM

Thank you Lexi and Patti.

I haven't had a meal in a couple of days, and now the thought of food makes me nauseous. I will work on that. I have been drinking more whey protein shakes and yogurt....just to have something.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:49 AM

This "punch to the gut" is horrendous, but would Indy want this to linger? I think not, and I think Max is telling you the same thing - grieve as you must, but always take care of yourself.

You fought so hard for Indy - let her lasting memories bring you a measure of peace and the strength to continue with your invaluable help and knowledge to others. Let this be Indy's legacy. I think Max would agree.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 04:58 AM

Yes, start gently. Tiny goals: 3 bites of yogurt, if that is all you can manage. Pudding, soft cake, crackers, warmed broth. Small amounts, as often as you are able to. Drinking water when this stressed with acute grief is important. You will get through this.

In time, memories of Indy will be the happy ones. You will be surprised at how many happy, joyous times you both shared. Then those memories will bring you an inner warmth and comfort, almost as if Indy herself is using those memories to gently care for you still.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 05:09 AM

I am trying to replace the pictures of her in my head. They are still the tragic faces of her death. I am hoping soon that I can think of the better ones. I see pictures of her around here, but I'm still drawn to the recent pictures of loss.


The UCD vet kept switching between talking about a brain tumor and a brain lesion - in her world mostly one in the same, except if she had some other rare disease. As I continue to put the picture of the last many many months, as I wrote above, I see complete evidence of the brain lesion - voice changes, eye issues, gait and coordination, all carefully managed for so long. They were carefully managed with a combination of supplements, and at least as important, doxycycline and Augmentin. Some of that was because I also believed that her ongoing infection issues caused issues with her heart.

With a ruptured tendon in her heart, her heart disease did not really progress for over the year that she was on antibiotics, when previously it had progressed quite rapidly.

As I mull over all the "what if's", I have come to the conclusion that, as I thought before, she did have a brain lesion, but I am not at all convinced it was a tumor. It might have been. It might have been infection.

I have fought for her for so long, it's hard to stop that process in my head of trying to figure out what has happened to her. She died as she lived, with a mystery illness.

Max is quite worried. He chewed a hole in his paw, so I can't walk him. I really wanted to walk him. He will get Indy's chiro appt that was scheduled for Tuesday, and he has treadmill on Wed. It will be good for the both of us.

Food, I guess I should find food. And also put ice cream on the shopping list.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 05:19 AM

Lisa, please take care of yourself. Once you manage to eat a little bit, perhaps try and get some sleep, even if you have to take something to help with that.

Each day and moment will be hard for both you and Max but everyone is right, allow yourself to grieve for your most precious girl. She is free from pain now and watching over you and would want you to only remember the beautiful girl she was and not her passing hugging hugging hugging We are all here for you.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 05:57 AM

After Chama died Cleo got very, very ill. I hadn't been paying much attention her during the few months before Chama died and she held out for me until Chama was gone and then my attention had to turn to her. In fact, she got so ill that I was terrified I would lose her too. The best thing you can do for Max right now is try to create a structured routine for and with him. I understand all too well what's going on in your brain but now you need to turn your mental and physical energy to Max. He needs you now more than ever and he needs you to take care of yourself so that you can take proper care of him.

Re the hole in his paw: If you don't already have some buy some Rejuva spray. That stuff is amazing. Kailor chews or scratches holes in herself just about every other day and we spray her with that three times a day when she's really having a tough time. We also put socks on her when we're gone to keep her from going at her feet.

Patti's eating suggestions are excellent: remember that she also stopped eating and it caused her a lot of health problems. We don't want that to happen to you too. Go to the health food store and buy some yummy smoothie drinks and then buy some of this stuff too, it's delicious and healthy: http://www.amazinggrass.com/about-chocolate-green-superfood.html

Based on your description of how you feel and the circumstances of Indy's death I think the homeopathic remedy would be ignatia. Both you and Max could benefit from it.
Posted By: kelso

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 06:16 AM

I do not know how I missed this whole thread until now. frown

So sorry Lisa teary many thoughts for you and your family. You are always so thoughtful and helpful to so many others, please take care.

Rest in peace sweet Indy girl
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 06:33 AM

You're in my thoughts, Lisa. I hope you and Max can comfort each other and find peace.
Posted By: elisabeth

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 07:49 AM

I can't believe I didn't notice this thread until now either.... Lisa.... my heart aches for you and yours.

You have helped so many dogs during your time as a member here and on the old board. You truely are a magnificant person. Know that you did everything you could and more for your sweet girl.

I have tears running down my face just reading this thread in it's entirely.. I really do hope you find peace with what occurred.

I am so very, very sorry.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 08:43 AM

Thank you for the added and continued support. I have been overwhelmed by fatigue this evening.

Ruth, thank you for sharing your experiences. Max, with his myriad of health problems, is always at risk, and I would hate for this to propel him in a bad direction.

I have some Ignatia here, but I wonder if this isn't something I'm supposed to go through and not alter. I dunno. Max, he's still being treated by the homeopathic vet for his fistula, so I can't treat him. Part of the chewing comes from paw swelling.

Indy was always such a sensitive girl, Max shows his sensitiveness in different ways, I hope I don't miss his cues.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 09:04 AM

Lisa, if by the your supposed to go through and not alter part, you mean grieving, then yes you are but anything that helps you is best. I know when I lost my girls, I hit rock bottom, didn't look after myself and forgot to take my meds, if it wasn't for my cats, I really don't know what I would have done frown To me, it is similar to being sick, if there is a remedy to help you recover, then you take it.
hugging Please look after yourself hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 09:23 AM

That makes sense. I just don't want to hide from the pain, it seems like that would be so disrespectful.

I've been trying to feed Max for the last 1/2 hour, but I keep just wandering aimlessly. Collecting some of Indy's supplements that I just ordered that I know Mom will be able to use. Tomorrow I put pills together for the week, that will be so hard. I can't bring myself to remove her feeding area. I guess in due time. Damnit, I'm supposed to be preparing two food bowls, and it just hurts.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 09:32 AM

teary Don't rush anything.
Posted By: Qyn

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 12:28 PM

Oh Lisa, I am so sorry. I truly did not expect to read this today.

Seeing that photo of Indy reminds me of others that I remember from the meet and greet at the beach and that makes me smile gently. You have bought Indy through so many trials and were with her all the way through this one. Maybe, despite how much she wanted to stay with you, her body had finally had enough.

RIP sweet Indy - you have touched many people's lives and we will all miss you. angel Run free at the beach again.

Lisa, much love and hugs to you and Max. Please take care of yourself.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:16 PM

It takes time for those images to go away - it really does, for humans and animals who go on before us. For a while it seems like the only way to remember them as they were for their whole life except that time is to concentrate really hard, then those bad pictures come back. Our brains work in mysterious ways - they try to protect us from reality to some extent, but when it's so upsetting, can't. Be looking for signs, dreams, etc., the IMOM ladies always said that and I have found it to be true.

Take care.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:41 PM

Sending some Morning Hugs to Lisa and Max.
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:48 PM

Just letting you know I am also still here. Lisa there is no "supposed to" way to grieve or act after such a tremendous loss in our lives.

Do what you need to do so you get past these first days. Hugs to you and Max.
Posted By: kaisersmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 02:51 PM

Lisa -

There is no right or wrong way to get through the pain of losing someone very special and close to you - we all know that the pain is very real.

After Ray died, I stayed home from work for 2 days. I felt physically ill and mentally crushed, and it was the first time Rick and I had been alone in the house since we were married. The silence was deafening. Anything and everything I looked at reminded me of Ray. When I drove down the street, all I could think of was the route we used to walk every evening, the corner where we stood to cross the street, etc. Ray had a huge pile of toys that were just sitting there. I thought I heard the jingle of the tags on his collar, but his collar was sitting on the table. I could go on and on.

I had to keep telling myself that Ray would have wanted me to take care of myself, just as Indy would want you to take care of yourself, just as you took care of her for so many years.

I know it seems cliche right now, but give yourself time. Time really does heal and in time, the painful memories will gradually be replaced by happy ones. I never thought it would happen, but it did for me and it will for you too.

Take care of yourself and of Max. hugging
Posted By: shepnterrier

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:38 PM

Lisa, I am so very sorry about your loss. Indy is no more in pain.

Loss can make life look surreal. There is a reason for the custom of friends, neighbors, family bringing food and drink to the bereft, sharing the food, and to commemorate the life of the lost loved one. The forces of grief pull on their own, what needs effort and support is the pull back into life.

Please, take good care of yourself and of Max in this difficult time.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:52 PM

The feeling after losing my last senior Chell was deeply "soul-sick." I think taking the ignatia will not prevent your healthy grieving process. The upsetting images and memories are ones we process and go through. On the other side of them, in time, the warmer, gentler images then begin. It takes time.

Sleep in naps when you can. Even when you are not sobbing to release these feelings, the body is reacting as if it had a physical blow. Naps, warm baths, some hot tea. If you cannot walk Max, gently grooming him, if he and you enjoy it, may also soothe and help you both get through this time of hurting-to-healing.

Wishing you strength, Lisa. Please again be as gentle and good to yourself as you can right now. hugging
Posted By: AgilePaws

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 03:53 PM

Checking to see how you're doing today and sending more hugs. hugging
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 04:12 PM

Sending you more hugging Lisa.

I think different people have differing ways to cope. I just let myself go with however I am feeling for a while (days/weeks) and then I have had to start living again and adjusting. I know some friends are the type to try and keep busy. My point is to do whatever you need to. But I do think it is not healthy to bottle up the emotions, you need to release them if that makes any sense. I hope you manage to get some rest hugging
Posted By: AngelJ

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 04:35 PM

This is not what I as wanting to see when I checked back in today. teary
I am so sorry for your loss. Big hugging to you and Max.

Please take care of yourself. Be there for Max and let Max be there for you. The first days after losing Bailey were so difficult for me and it was my boys that kept me going and keeping my days as normal as my "new" normal could be.
In time the memories of her last days will be replaced with the happy loving memories of her life with you.

Rest in peace Sweet Indy butterfly
Posted By: Cassidy's Mom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 05:56 PM

I'm so sorry Lisa. I was not following this thread and didn't know how bad off she was. Karin sent me a PM to let me know she's gone. frown I know so well what you're going through, that's exactly how we felt when we got up that morning and found that Dena had died during the night. I also remember the exhaustion, I was so tired most of the time those 3 weeks that I felt hung over. We spent nearly 4 times as much as you did on vet bills, tests, and treatment and I would have spent double that if we could have saved her.

I enjoyed meeting Indy at the Fort Funston meet last year too, she was such a little cutie pie, especially next to all those big shepherds. I looked for a picture of her in my photobucket album but I didn't have anything anywhere near as good as the one Dave took that Karin already posted.
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 07:51 PM

Oh Lisa - I am so sorry to read all this. I haven't been on much at all and missed this entire thread.

I think a little piece of my heart just broke for you

hugging x 1,000,000.50

rip sweet Indy
Posted By: Ruthie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 08:06 PM

Lisa, I am so sorry for your loss.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 08:19 PM

Someone told me that it is the morning when a new kind of darkness hits and she is right. Such a little girl, creating such a big hole. It is so QUIET, and even Max is being quiet. He didn't even stand up and put his paws on the bed to say g'morning when I woke, I had to call him over.

I have to grade exams that I've put off because Indy was so sick, this is really going to be tough. My mind won't think and process, and that's what I need to do for work. I will see how tomorrow goes. It is probably good for me to go to work, but I certainly won't be productive.

I have a framed picture of Indy with her best friend forever, a beagle, playing. He was lost to lymphoma awhile back. I brought out that picture and have placed so I will see it more regularly, trying to think of her running with him at the bridge, rather in those last days. I guess I can't force this process, but if that will help get past of the images of her death, where I feel like I failed her, then that is good. She did suffer, but there was the trade-off in the way she died. And without knowing what would happen, I had to give her the opportunity to get better.

Cassidy's Mom, I will never forget what you went through with Dena frown

I am going to get a shower and see what the day brings. I cannot express how helpful it is to have a community that understands what I am going through and is so helpful.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 08:25 PM

I am going to an animal communication seminar on the 16th. Wondering if I will be able to keep it together there. Wondering if it will help. Hopefully by then I will be much more stable.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 10:11 PM

Oh NO!!!!! teary

I just got home from Tulsa and dog showing and this was not what I wanted to see. I am so sorry Lisa. So sorry. At leas Indy passed with you by her side and not in a sterile kennel at the vet's.

Many hugs hugging hugging for you and Max and please know you were not far from my thoughts all weekend. I tried logging in on my phone yesterday and could not for some reason.

I know if there was more to do you would have done it, but each one of us has a specified number of days and there is all we can do. angel


rip dear Miss Indy. butterfly
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 10:50 PM

Thank you Kathy, I appreciate your words. I am so glad I was there with her in the end.
Posted By: SunCzarina

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/03/10 11:28 PM

Oh Lisa, I am so sorry you lost Indy. I never know what to say in this situation other than she was beautiful, she was so loved and she will be sorely missed. Grieving is a process, 5 stages and don't try to rush any of them.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 12:02 AM

Thank you Jenn, I think what you wrote is just right. It all helps.

I'm readying myself to face the pills and supplements to get them ready for the week for me and max.

I still go over and over and over about Indy's mystery. She died as she lived, with a mystery illness. Her entire life was such a careful balance, she taught me so much. But when they are seniors, it is so easy to throw that balance off, and so many systems intertwined, so the entire system is screwed. If it was the disease that damaged Indy's heart, then she died the say that the UCD vet said she would. But what if it was the fluids that did it to her? That easily could have been it? what if this was a jammed disk that she would ahve recovered? fatal infection? brain tumor? Not knowing is so hard....

I asked her, in that last day, what lessons she would teach me in death. I hope that acceptance and forgiveness is one.

Off to face cleaning out her supplements, then grading exams...how optimistic is that!!
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 12:34 AM

Lisa you did what you thought was best for Indy at that time, that is all we can do is deal with each situation in that moment. The thing about looking back is it always easier to say I should have done this or I should have done that. Indy was your fighting gal, I don't think I would have been happy at the Vet's at UC Davis. From your description they seemed a bit cavalier, that they knew it was a brain tumor without having any tests to back up their statement. I think both you and Indy suffered some, but I think it was far worse on you than her. You are beating yourself up for something that I don't think you would have done differently, you gave her a fighting chance. You would not be happy with yourself if you would have let her go sooner, you would have always questioned yourself, did I let her go too soon, what IF. Lisa if Indy would have been in a lot of pain that would have been suffering. I think she was just more confused that in pain. She wanted to be where she was when she passed at home with you.

I think after you get done grading your exams, that you need to sit down and write a tribute to your gal Indy. All the fun and good times you two had and how she could make you laugh. Lisa the good times far out weigh the bad, right now you are just weighted down with the bad. You need to work on the good. Indy will always be Your Indy Gal, it is just that she isn't physically at your side, but you will forever carry her in your heart.

You know if we didn't care and love our dogs so much it would be easier for us when they have to leave. God knew that there would be many more dogs needing great homes like yours than great owners, so he only loans us these precious soles. (Sorry about the religion stuff). Some day your heart will be ready for another precious sole, it won't be an Indy, but there will be another who wiggles their way into your heart in their own special way. The only way we really loose is to not let that happen in the future.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 12:54 AM

Still sending good thoughts your way, Lisa. Take care of yourself and Max and grieve as you need to. *HUGS*
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 01:52 AM

Could not say it any better than Val. Peace be with you tonight and every night. Indy will show you the way.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 02:10 AM

Checking in again and wishing that tonight's sleep will be a restful one, for both you and Max. Tomorrow is another day towards healing. Indy was so well-loved, she would wish only the very best for you.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 02:30 AM

Oh Val, I think you are so right.

I have been thinking of her tribute, but my mind isn't able to go there yet.

I hope that Indy and I meet up in this world again. And if we do, I hope that I recognize it.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 02:58 AM

Lisa you aren't ready just yet to do a tribute, when you are it will happen, you will laugh and you will have tears, they will be healing tears.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 03:14 AM

teary
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 03:20 AM

grouphug From me an my crew.
Posted By: Strongheart

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 03:20 AM

Lisa I am so sorry to read all this about Indy...having just come back to the forum world...only her body has left you, it was just a pacifier, something physical to hold on to, you say she was your heart and that is beating in your chest right now and she is its drummer. The best tribute you could give her is to live in the moment and know the everlasting moments she gave you are just that...everlasting - as long as you live.

Namastť Indy!

imsorry
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 04:15 AM

Thank you Strongheart, I wouldn't mind having that body around for a bit longer though frown

Indy was my teacher since she first came here, and she will continue to teach me even in her death, which is will be part of her lasting legacy. I will honor her by living out the lessons that she has taught me.
Posted By: SLEACHY

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 04:16 AM

I have been out of town for a few days, thought I would check on you and Indy and came back to find she has left you. Lisa, I am so sorry. Words are so inadequate.

In my heart, I believe you did everything right for Indy. You also asked her for a sign and I think she gave it to you...

Quote:
It's very hard to sleep, when next to me there is a dog barking non-stop, with no voice. Her heart pumping so loudly it scares me. And I feel wholly inadequate because I'm not completely sure what it means. All her life I have understood her - perhaps my mind doesn't want to go there...


Last November, I lost my 23.5 yr old cat named Deke. I nursed him for almost a year and, throughout that time, I asked him to let me know when he was ready. I prepared meals for him 5-6 times a day even if he would only take a few laps and walk away. On our last day together, he wouldn't eat and he wanted no part of me. That devastated me and completely broke my heart. I took him to the vet to see if I could help him despite his suffering. After the vet shook her head, I called my mother on the phone so she could come and say good bye. When she sat next to Deke, he forced out a purr and put his head in her hands. I realize now that he HAD to ignore me that day...that was his way of telling me to let him go.

Your sweet Indy was a wise old friend! I am sure her lessons and gifts to you are innumerable. Some how, we make it through. Please know you are not alone. You and Indy and Max are thought of warmly tonight.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 05:53 AM

Thank you Sleachy, they do have their own ways of communicating with us, and she was trying to communicate with me. Before that time, she was barking if she had to go to the bathroom, and then it changed. I was so frustrated, I didn't know what to do at first. Ultimately, after awhile, I did know deep down, but wasn't ready to accept it. I turned off the tv, and turned on my "chakra balancing" CD on repeat play so it could take us through the night. I never considered the thought though that she would not be there when we woke up. I didn't think she would leave me as I slept. But from everyone is saying, perhaps I should have expected that.

Wow, after 23.5 years, I have to imagine that was a very difficult time for you hugging
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 08:59 AM

Lisa just letting you know I am thinking of you hugging
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 02:07 PM

Lisa,

In the context of such profound feelings, I cannot add anything.

Reading about your loss of Indy and the grief others have felt, I learn something about the scope of the human heart.

take care,
MJ
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 02:47 PM

Monday morning, it will be a difficult day.

Kaisersmom gave me a great gift last night. Via pm, she answered some of my medical questions, and put my mind at rest that there was nothing I could have done, there was no apparent medical negligence either, this truly appears to be a brain lesion.

And with that, I am allowed to grieve for Indy more naturally, in a more productive way.


And when I was able to speak to Miss Indy with more clarity, I heard her speak back. She told me that she had to continue her journey and on to the next phase. And so must I. And in an instant, my grief changed. I have not been able to sob since last night, and I do not know what is worse, sobbing all the time, or being "soul-sick" and wanting to sob and not being able to. I am still able to cry, and I'm sure later I will be able to sob again, but this has been very surreal. And for the first time in days, Max played with his ball.



This is the same voice that told me no more drugs. I have heard this voice before, though I did not know it was her, it would sometimes help me help her. It speaks in sentences. This time it used the word "I".


I have always talked with Indy in sentences and she has understood. Other folks (vet, etc) have done this too, amazed at what she could understand. She is my wise girl.



Max doesn't handle sentences so well - too many words. I tried having a talk with him when she had passed. I told him I would take care of him, and he had to take care of me now. Ever since, he has been barking and lunging at every noise in the house and thing on our walk (whether it is moving or not). Clearly, Max and I have to work on our communication skills crazy



I guess this is a new phase. It's starting off very empty frown
Posted By: SunCzarina

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 03:39 PM

Hi Lisa, just thinking of you in your difficult time. Hugs for you and Max. He's a boy, they're a bit offhanded at communication. He'll be there in his own way to help you through. And cover you will ball slime.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 03:43 PM

Wasn't able to check in yesterday b/c we had my mom's 80th bday party and then I had to drive back to Buffalo at night.

I just started crying when i read everything. What a wonderful, unique and special bond you had with Indy. Cleo is lying across my chest purring right now. I know so well how you are feeling and admire you for letting the journey take its course. Sending warm, healing thoughts your way Lisa. And thanks so much for keeping the lines of communication open here. It's very generous of you and helpful for all of us too. hugging
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 03:49 PM

Good morning, Lisa. huggingMornings are rough, and Mondays are rough days especially with obligations and work. I'm glad you feel/sense/hear Indy. I believe that the connection is never lost, because the spirit is simply on another plane. Indy and you are connected. Max is listening as best he can right now, and you have a support in him. Playing with his ball is a good sign, Lisa! My wish for you today is to breathe. Just breathe. Take this as gently as you need to. You can't grieve "wrong," as there's no right/wrong way to grieve. You are healing. bloomrose

May today bring whatever you need, be it cleansing sobs, quiet reflection, something funny with Max, a long healing nap, a bowl of nourishing hot soup that tastes better than you expected it would, or little comforting signs and reminders from Indy that she's loving you now and always.

Grimm and I send you hugs, Lisa. hugging hugging hugging
Posted By: UConnGSD

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 06:38 PM

Lisa, I haven't been coming to the forum for a while because of work-related pressures. So I was shocked to hear on FB about Indy. I am so sorry to hear of your loss. Your connection with Indy is so profound and touching. I can't say anything to make it less painful for you but please know that you and Max are in my thoughts.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 06:43 PM

Just checking in - I "talked" with Kramer about a month after (okay, everyone is checking off the __Confirming Jean is crazy box on their spreadsheets) but it helped a ton and gave me a new way to deal with things. I grabbed Kyah up about a week after he passed to keep from going crazy because I could feel myself heading to a dark place. We all have different ways of trying to get through this. Please take care.
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/04/10 09:15 PM

Add me to the crazy list! I've talked with my pets as well. I also have a friend that does animal reiki and communications and some of the conversations through her were amazing. One time she talked to a foster dog of mine that was incredibly fearful and shy. She asked him to please play with a dog named Walter next time we saw him at the dog park, because Walters parents were interested in adopting him... Well the very next day we ran into them, and Tino (the foster) raced around and played with Walter the entire time. My jaw just dropped, it was the first time Tino had left my side at the dog park.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 03:45 AM

Random thoughts...

Indy died on Live Strong Day, the anniversary of when Lance Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer. Her nametag was a yellow bone, with the first line that said LiVESTRONG, second line had her name. I thought she was a cancer survivor. I now wonder if the brain tumor was metastasized from that tumor that was removed 3 years ago.

When I switched to wireless, maybe a couple of years ago, I made it a point to turn off the wireless when not in use. Indy slept in that room when I was gone. I told stb-ex back then, if any dog were to get a brain tumor from a wireless signal, it would be Indy. How ironic is that?

I had messaged my students about Indy's passing, so they would understand that I would be slower in getting work done. So many of them were so supportive. I am surrounded by wonderful supportive people, this forum being a large chunk of it.

Getting up this morning and coming home this afternoon were the hardest today. Coming home was actually terrible. As I got closer, I just sobbed. When I got home, I didn't have time though. Max acted like he hadn't seen me in a month. And I confess, I did the same. It was so good to see him today.

We got out of the house and mowed the lawns, visited with the neighbor. In the house, it's quiet, and I feel ill. I sometimes think I imagine her in her favorite spot on the stair landing, but I think that just makes me feel better.

Oh Ruth, I've been taking the Ignatia. I don't know if it's doing anything, but I'm sure it isn't hurting, and I can use all the help that I can get!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 03:51 AM

Jean, if you are crazy, then you are not alone.....

UConn, thank you, I'm sorry for your work problems, and thank you for the support.

Patti, you are right, there is no wrong way to grieve. I guess it's getting closer to that dark place that I was thinking of, the place that Jean alludes to. I still flirt with the edges, when I think about the events. For some reason my brain can't wrap around the fact that she had a brain tumor and she is gone.
Posted By: elisabeth

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 03:58 AM

Lisa, just wanted to say that I was thinking of you today.

Hug Max and please know that you have support here and those who understand.. even when others think we are crazy... wink

I still think of Beau and this weekend (thanksgiving) when everyone comes from all over to be together, she will not be far from my mind (or heart). It's hard but we must live on for those around us..
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
I just started crying when i read everything. What a wonderful, unique and special bond you had with Indy. Cleo is lying across my chest purring right now. I know so well how you are feeling and admire you for letting the journey take its course. Sending warm, healing thoughts your way Lisa. And thanks so much for keeping the lines of communication open here. It's very generous of you and helpful for all of us too. hugging


Thank you Ruth.

There are two people that I have known on the dog boards the longest. Jakoda, and connie, who had Sander, the wonder sheltie: http://www.cinnamondog.com/sander.html Sander was fighting cancer when Indy was battling the worst of her vaccine damage. They were both damaged by the lyme vaccine. I learned a lot by following their battle, and have used that as a bit of a blueprint with Indy. Sander died in 2006, and ever since then, I have tried to prepare myself for this time. I had always hoped that I could handle it with the grace that connie and Sander did. I'm not really sure that I've done that, different circumstances, but I've tried to honor everything that Indy has taught me, which is the most important thing to me.

oh, and definitely congratulations and happy birthday to your mother - 80 is certainly also a new phase!
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 04:04 AM

Lisa, for a time, we keep trying to grapple with the "hows" even more than the "whys." We often need intellectually to dissect the events, to reason through the medical stuff, to try to make sense of things for our minds. Sometimes the back-researching gives us a sense of having more insight, and helps when we feel so bewildered and out of control. Losing someone who was dependant on us , who we cared for, nursed, etc., is a loss of control and trying to understand helps us some. Trying to understand the finer details of the illness and what they may have experienced, also helps us draw a bit closer to them still. It's all okay, and part of processing such a traumatic event and loss.

That recovery and healing from such deep acute grief is hard to believe when the dog we loved so much was interwoven so deeply into our lives and hearts. Breathing, sleeping, living, loving together for so many years, the pain of loss is such that it's hard to believe that we can and will heal. We do and you shall. butterfly This will get better. We never get over the dog, just the acute pain of loss, as it transforms in time into memories that warm the heart. gsdhalo

Count me amoung the nutty too, by the way. And, no question in my mind that your marvelous, loving Miss Indy is sending you whatever gentle comforts she can.

Getting through the fog, the ill feelings, you are not alone. We're all here surrounding you with care and understanding. hugging Max is himself apparently using all of his Max-ness wub to show you his love right now. Good boy, Mr. Max!

Posted By: AngelJ

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 04:22 AM

Was just thinking of you and Max and thought I'd send a hugging your way tonight.

I hope we're not nutty if we talk to our dogs. If so, I'm on the crazy train as well. Every night before I go to bed, I pass a picture of Bailey. I touch the photo and tell her to dream sweet, just like I've done every night for almost the last 14 years. Talking to her and giving her a hug was the last thing I did every night. Everyone has differnet things that bring them comfort.
May you find the little things that bring you comfort and ease your pain.
Posted By: SLEACHY

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 04:45 AM

Just checking in and thinking of you tonight. hugging
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 05:02 AM

Thinking of you here, too, hoping Max is doing better as well.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 05:09 AM

It's rather empty, but I suspect it will be that way for quite some time. I find that I don't want to move around and do things tonight - just too many memories to face everywhere I turn. It will take some time to create new routines.

Max has some separation issues, and I think those will be worse for awhile, so I will have to keep him somewhat active so he sleeps well when I am gone. He's sleeping so soundly right now, and I see that the water bowl was almost empty when I got home.....I think he was pretty stressed while I was away....has anyone used a webcam for this I wonder?
Posted By: Tri-Shepherd

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 05:50 AM

They use cameras on It's Me or the Dog all the time a Webcam should work for that.

I am going to jump on the crazy train also. My Trooper died on October 31, 2003 and still to this day there are times I sit on the back porch staring up at the stars and talk to him. I have wondered and worried I did too little for Trooper ever since we had him put down. I never gave him pain medication. He went from slight arthritis to being unable to stand from the pain in a few weeks. I don't know if pain medication would have helped him or not. I do know that at that time I had a 7 year old and 4 year old and a job that did not allow for many extras. I feel guilty I didn't try harder to keep him alive and pain free for longer. But I also feel strongly that Trooper being the kind of dog he was would have never showed pain if he could help it. At the point he showed pain I am not sure pain medicines would have helped.

Huge hug to you Lisa and Max. We are all here for you. It's never easy and losing Indy so fast....I can't imagine. Hang in there! I understand the researching to understand what happened, I am the same way. If I understand it I can move on with grieving also.
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 07:00 AM

Tessa's separation anxiety was a huge problem after Logan passed away. I could not contain her... Anywhere. I know that on top of her normal separation anxiety she was grieving, so it was much worse. At work I would sometimes put her up in a horse stall or somewhere for periods while I was teaching. But she got out of everywhere, she must have scaled the wall to get out of the locked stall.

I hope you and Max feel better soon *hugs*
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 08:00 AM

This is totally not logical and I would never let it affect Max, but I wonder if anyone else has felt guilty of all things, for continuing to care for the remaining pet? I feel so bad walking him sometimes, because I feel like it's not fair that my girl isn't there and doesn't get her walk. It's downright silly, but even feeding him, because I feel like Indy is not getting fed. I have to force myslef to do these things to some degree, they are some of the hardest things that must be tended to throughout the day. Yet at the same time. I enjoy doing these things for him because they mean so much to him. He acts like a young dog when he glimpses normality and activity involving him.



I wonder if I am having trouble wrapping my brain around this brain tumor thing as a matter of ego. To accept that this was a huge medical issue, and I missed it in the one being that I was so bonded to? I saw many of the signs and acknowledged them, but each one of them overlapped with one of her other conditions. So this isn't even a realistic debate, which means it's an emotional or egotistical one. I think about her having a brain tumor, and my mind just won't go there. How can a person be in such denial over something that appears so likely? I thought most of her symptoms were her heart, but I was wrong. I thought maybe infection, but that wouldn't account for what appears to be the force that was rotating her spine. I could see and feel the difference in her neck too. Who knew it must have been displaced by the tumor, causing a rippling response down her neck. In the end, two radiologist, a couple vets and a chiro looked at those xrays and looking at all views, that neck was not what the problem was. She was not in pain - she was not getting the signals from her brain to feel that pain.


When Indy's broken tendon in her heart was found in 8/09, I thought she had only months left. Jean found an article that showed that dogs could live longer with such a thing. I am proud that with her supplement program her heart was doing so well just over a year after that.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 09:40 AM

Lisa I am sending you hugging and for Max too.

Add me to the crazy list, I still talk to mine and they both passed 6 years ago. Sometimes I find expressions almost, in Molly that I am sure come from Holly ( don't ask about the name, long convoluted story). And I don't know how to explain it without going into details and sounding even stranger but although my cats were pretty much the only reason I fought to 'be' after Holly and Meisha, I was also angry that they were here and my dogs weren't. I think this is the first time since 2004, I have actually written their names down and now I am crying.

Anyway, I think it is very healthy that you are able to write down here your thoughts regarding Indy. Please do not feel any guilt, you did so much and it was ultimately out of your control hugging
Posted By: UConnGSD

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 12:40 PM

Oh Lisa... teary Have you tried the Star of Bethlehem & Pine from the Bach remedies? The former for grief and the latter for the guilt feelings, which are going hand-in-hand with grief. hugging to you & Max.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 01:58 PM

Brain tumors are horrible, they are insidious, we don't know they are there until it is too late. I have lost many relatives to this terrible disease to include a 5 year old niece. There is NOTHING you can do until it is already too late in most cases. Don't beat yourself up because you missed it. There were probably no signs. My niece's first sign was tilting her head and by then it was too late.

hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 03:39 PM

Lisa, if it was a brain tumor what would you have changed? Nothing you did caused the tumor, nothing you could have done would have prevented the tumor. Indy was happy to be there with you, she passed in her sleep after received hugs and cuddles from you. Do you think she would have changed that to pass in some sterile Vets office because they wanted to do an MRI. Do you think you wouldn't be second guessing yourself if you would have let her go when you were at UC Davis???

I know you are hurting and this maybe a part of your process for healing but you did what at the time you thought was best for Indy. I don't believe she suffered, she was with you where she wanted to be. If the pain would have been too much for her she would have told you. I think she was sad that she had to leave you but once again I don't think she was in pain. How many animals or people get to fight a good fight and end up dying peacefully at home.

Death is not an easy thing to process. I think it is harder for you because for a long time you and Indy fought to be together. I think you feel like you let her down. You didn't let her down you gave her a longer life from the excellent care and love that you gave her.

I know you strongest tie was to Indy, but your Max needs you. He is off balance just like you are, your routines have been disrupted, your hearts have been broken.

It is natural when your routine is gone and you feel really out of sorts. Life is different, but life goes on. Indy wouldn't want you beating yourself up over something you or she couldn't change.
Posted By: LifeAsMe

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 04:14 PM

Lisa, I think you have survivor's guilt. I also think it's natural to have guilt over things not done, and that we have no control over, when we lose someone. Especially a pet, or a child, who can not speak for themselves. Regardless of what decision we make, we always live with the 'what if' scenario's.

You gave Indy a better life than she would have possibly had with anyone else. She left peacefully, feeling safe in her home with you. Just remember that while you work through your grief. I wish I had the words of wisdom and comfort that so many others have. All I can really say is I hope you find peace and my thoughts are with you.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 05:18 PM

Oh bianco, I'm so sorry hugging but what you said about the cats, being there when the dogs weren't, it helps. Max is trying to be the best boy ever, in his own boy way (I think Jenn put it best earlier, thank you Jenn!!), and it's difficult on so many different levels.

Kathy, how terrible and tragic, I'm sooo sorry. I appreciate that info.

The head tilt. You know, I've gone over this chiro thing a zillion times in my head, because she spiraled after seeing the chiro, we all thought it could be damage to the disk. But just the week before, I had thought how she had suddenly aged, her head was more sunken, her eyes getting worse. I would not have seen a head tilt because of the regular chiro visits. She used to freeze in place while walking a lot. She went through a period where she would fall while standing, shometimes she would knuckle, sometimes she would shuffle. Her hearing was going, and lately her eyes were so red and so bulging. I managed her with antibiotics and chiro care. The chiro care was huge for her. In the end, the only thing I would have done is kept her on the higher dose of doxy, and not stopped her algae dha - she got better on the dha, but it caused the lipomas to grow and be more uncomfortable so I stopped it. But those things would not have bought much more time I suspect. Anyway, I go back to thinking about that last chiro visit, I had felt so sad at how she had suddenly aged - if there is any chance that the chiro implicated, I bet she would not have been with me long at all anyway. I entirely believe that the chiro gave her a better quality of life, and, in fact, prolonged it. If I had another dog with a brain tumor, I would be back at the chiro. The time she had here was good.

UConn, I will have ro look at those remedies, particularly if I get stuck in this place. LaM, maybe it is survivor's guilt, it's at least related. Val, as usual, you have it nailed.

Okay, chiro day for Max. Gonna get up and feed the boy, and prepare for the day.
Posted By: Strongheart

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 08:17 PM

Lisa I recently had a little one of my charges with multiple conditions that just never stopped but she had a special animal-certified chiropractor whom she loved very much (who also did chi gong -sp?) and this little soul's body seemed indestructible.

Then her chiro's mom died and she had to leave for a long, long time. The little soul left her body shortly after and I have come to realize that the chiro was what was keeping her going the whole time.

Look at all the things Indy went through, sounds like an episode of "House" - but how many dogs get that kind of diagnostic team working on them? There are lots of people who don't even get the care your Indy got as a result of your diligence.

As for Max, well as one of my favorite bosses used to say who kept losing relatives while I worked with her, "first you have to take care of the living and then you have to take care of the dead." I think over time you will have realizations about things that happened with Indy and they will help your future dogs. And the ones who are closest to you are the hardest to see some symptom you only recognize later because your subconscious does not want to see it. That's why they don't let doctors treat their family members.

Be kind to yourself and don't feel guilty for missing Indy as part of your routine.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 08:30 PM

Caregivers syndrome too...
http://www.specialneedspets.org/caregvrs.htm

Take care - can you and Max go on little drives? Find a quiet place to sit, then back home - your energy must be low and that's a good way to do something with him without tiring out.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/05/10 09:15 PM

Lisa,

Many healing thoughts and strength going out to you and Max. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 01:06 AM

I see that Kris lost Murphy over the weekend too frown I'm so sorry Kris; her 19 years are a tribute to the love and care you gave her.

Thank you Ruth, thank you for the link Jean. Max is still having leg and back problems, so limited car rides, but I am trying to get outside as often as I can with him. We are both exhausted. I have never seen him sleep so soundly with such little activity. Me, I understand why that is so. I hadn't realized that Max is in the same condition.

Thank you Strongheart, what you say resonates. And I will try to take care of the living first.

I thought today the actual chiro visit would be the most difficult part. I was wrong. It was the drive there.

Leaving, I kept pacing around and looking for what I had forgotten before I left, and I realized that I was looking for Miss Indy. I have made this 30 mile drive every 2-3 weeks for the last 9 years. I have *never* made it without Indy before.

I found myself distracted on the drive, and I would l would look around and barely recognize the scenery. When I would look, it didn't register what leg of the trip I was on. I would search for a higheay sign, and think I recognized the names of the roads, but even they were hazy. It was very difficult.

Once there, we were good. It was a good and healing visit with the chiro, now a longtime friend. And a good walk afterward, though Max was giving out and was exhausted. I shared part of a burger on the way home with him, he was happy.

I'm going to nap a bit before getting some work done. The chiro said I look like I have lost weight. Actually, it's about 7 pounds. It's not a good weight loss though, and I'm sure will come right back when I'm back eating. And yes, I am working on that! When indy was so sick, I just didn't have time, and now I have just felt too ill. I will eat though, I promise.

I find I leave the tv or radio off a lot now, to listen to the silence. I would have predicted otherwise, that I would try to avoid it. Funny how that works. It seems more respectful I guess.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 01:12 AM

hugging You and Max are in my thoughts. One day or moment at a time Lisa, that is all you can do hugging
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 02:10 AM

I am so glad that the chiro appointment went so well; it sounds like it was exactly what you and Max both needed. Just keep on doing what you're doing, Lisa. Baby steps. hugging
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 03:36 AM

Lisa - Just wanted you to know I think of you often and am sending good thoughts your way

hugging
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 04:07 AM

Lisa, I'm glad you made the chiro visit today. I can well imagine that drive being especially hard today. Sending you warm thoughts and wishes for healing, a bit at a time. Rest, drink fluids, eat, listen to the silence-- whatever helps you through this. Lots of love-sessions with Max, for sure. Grimm and I are wishing you only good things.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 04:45 AM

Just want you to know you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 06:09 AM

Thank you everyone.

I have had this nametag, and the shepherd head, (pictured below) attached to my backpack for several years now, since Indy's mast cell tumor was removed from her shoulder. I still find it ironic that she died on Live Strong Day. I've moved the tag to my car for now.




Hangin' out on a hot day while I'm working in the yard:




She loved to lay in the sun...I will miss my sun goddess!
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 07:00 AM

I think I have that same gsd head, does it say I love my shepherd on the back? When Logan passed I wore his tags on a necklace chain for a while. After that, I moved them to my keys. And I have his collar saved.
Posted By: Tri-Shepherd

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 07:06 AM

I always get an 8x11 shadowbox. Not just for my dogs but cats and my prairie dog. In the shadowbox goes a poem selected for that specific animal, their collar and tags, a few photos of them, and a cast foot print. The prairie dog obviously doesn't have a foot print or a collar and tags but he has pieces of his blankie. The shadowboxes are above my fireplace in my living room where I can gaze upon them and talk to the pictures....yes I am weird.

Make sure to eat and sleep Lisa. I know how hard it is and insomnia can set in or the flip side of sleeping to much and depression. Maybe you can have Max help pick out his favorite pictures of Indy and her favorite toy or chew to frame as a project. I feel it helps bring closure and healing.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 07:19 AM

Lin, that's the same GSD head. The whippet one looks like Indy, though it should say I love my Indy on the back...

Tri-Shep, I hope to go through some pictures this weekend, though most of them are film and hard to get to. The sleep thing, I hate the sleep thing - she used to sleep on my bed. I also have an extra bed for her at the side of my bed, and I need to move it soon - I keep telling myself it will be good to be able to use my bottom dresser drawer again, but that will take more time.

Indy only wore a name tag, and it's not a good shape for my key ring - I was thinking about this today. I think I have her rabies tag around here somewhere, but the vaccine thing and Indy didn't mix well - it wouldn't bring pleasant thoughts at all.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 07:22 AM

Someone made this for me about 10 years ago, I have it framed on the wall...I treasure it:



It's the pic of her head that I used for her tattoo on my leg years ago. When I'm ready, I am going to add the word "woof" to the bottom of the tattoo - she loved to bark, and she will have her last woof that I will also treasure always.
Posted By: Lin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 07:26 AM

that's so beautiful! And I love the woof idea. I have paw prints tattooed on my shoulder, I want to add something to Logans but haven't come up with the right thing yet. Sorry for mentioning him over and over, I'm just remembering these things as I read your posts.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 07:29 AM

Don't apologize for remembering Logan. All of the experiences and all of the dogs that have gone before are helping me through this. And if it also helps anyone else, that's even better. I remember what you went through with Logan, it was heartbreaking.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 11:30 AM

That is such a beautiful print/drawing of Indy.
I think that will be lovely about the woof tattoo. I feel the same as Lin, reading your story about Indy has me in tears every day, thinking about the pain you are going through and bringing back all the same feelings. I always meant to get Holly and Meishas paw print tattooed but I never 'got around to it'. I am going to get Molly's, Paris and Texas's with the quote in French (as my Mum is french).... "Our perfect companions have no fewer than four feet". And I am going to get it done before the end of the year.

Sending you lots of hugging Lisa. May everyday be a little bit easier.
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 01:30 PM

That sketch of Indy is gorgeous. I have one of Lucky my first GSD, similar to that framed in my room.

After we lsot Wolf so fast from cancer I started having professional pictures taken of my dogs. I have no really nice pictures of him. Joe found one when we went to a parade together and had it blown up and framed. Wolfie had a huge grin and so did I. I treasure stuff like that and the professional portrait is a way for me to rememeber them as they are in health.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 02:18 PM

When I told a friend about Indy's passing, she asked me what I was going to do to memorialize (is that the right word?) her. I hadn't thought that far yet. She suggested planting something, but I usually kill everything.

I have some crummy miniature roses that I've been wanting to get rid of, but have left because Indy loved to snack on the rose hips - I guess that was what she was eating. She was such a funny little girl, maneuvering between the thorns to get at those things. I might pull those out now and plant one special rose bush to tend to.

It's hard to wake up sad. Is it possible to sleep sad? I wonder if the soul has a reprieve when it sleeps. I know I went into a bit of an altered state when I was working last night, almost like I had forgotten she was gone. I've been sleeping very soundly. Jean said to watch for dreams - I fear I'd never remember them.

Kathy, the picture idea is nice - I think I remember you posting some before that were excellent.

Bianca, I love my Indy tattoo. It's bigger than I had first intended, to get her features, but it was to honor everything she had taught me and a reminder to never forget the expensive lessons that she suffered through as a pup and then later. She changed my life.

Way late for work. The darker and colder mornings are really conducive to. The snooze button.

Have a good day everyone, hug your pups, I'm gonna go do just that with Maxwell.
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
When I told a friend about Indy's passing, she asked me what I was going to do to memorialize (is that the right word?) her. I hadn't thought that far yet. She suggested planting something, but I usually kill everything.


We planted a tree for our dog, Sheba, after she died. We also got some flowers and planted them around the tree to make a little memorial garden for her. We're not the greatest gardeners either, but just the act of planting was healing for us.

Quote:
Bianca, I love my Indy tattoo. It's bigger than I had first intended, to get her features, but it was to honor everything she had taught me and a reminder to never forget the expensive lessons that she suffered through as a pup and then later. She changed my life.


That is a beautiful image of Indy. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Quote:
Have a good day everyone, hug your pups, I'm gonna go do just that with Maxwell.


I just hugged Heidi and she gave me the saddest, most solemn look. Take care of yourself, Lisa and know that many others are grieving alongside you.
Posted By: SunCzarina

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 08:49 PM

We planted a douglas fur after Gideon died. It's grown into a tremendous gorgeous tree. Good for the soul, especially the winter after he died.

I think Miss Indy would enjoy a beach rose planted in her honor. They smell lovely and have hips the size of tomatoes. They prefer neglect and can hold their own against marauding german shepherds. Although they're considered an invasive alien species, they're readily available and it's easy enough to control them becuase they don't grow particularly fast.

http://www.nobanis.org/files/factsheets/Rosa_rugosa.pdf

Lovely. Like Miss Indy.
Posted By: TMarie

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 09:39 PM

Lisa,
I just want you to know I am thinking of you and Max. I have been following this thread closely and reading everyone's nice comments, and all your thoughts and feelings. Everytime I think of something I want to say, the tears just stream down my face and I can't type or see (ugh, like now). Just know you are heavy in our hearts here in Vegas.

Hugs.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 09:47 PM

Lisa, more hugs from me, more full-body-love-leans from Grimm. Indy was beyond special. The life you now live, with the lessons she has shared with you as your guide, is a positive tribute to such an amazing soul. I am certain that she is watching over you with her own Indy-ness of wisdom and wit and so full of love. We all grieve with you in missing Indy, and we all wish you only the very best-- strength, peace, and healing.
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 10:07 PM

More hugs and warm thoughts for you and Max. I was thinking of Indy at work today and thought how wonderful it was you found each other, even though it is so difficult now.

hugging
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/06/10 11:30 PM

Thinking of you and Max again today, Lisa. Indy often comes to mind when I'm hanging out with Risa as they shared a similar look (and enigmatic character). Take care of yourself. *HUGS*
Posted By: AngelJ

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/07/10 12:23 AM

I was going to plant a tree for Bailey this fall. Just haven't decided what yet. I have a tree in my backyard that I planted in memory of a human friend of mine a few years ago.
When Gus passed, we put a memorial fountain next to the tree he liked to pee on. Makes me smile and think of him.

The rose plant would be beautiful bloomrose You'll find the perfect thing that "speaks" Indy to you.
Posted By: Tara

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/07/10 01:26 AM

Still thinking of you tonight Lisa. hugging
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/07/10 01:58 AM

I think a tree, shrub, or bush is a wonderful tribute to Indy. Also, we lost a special girl several years ago, and I still have the fluffy ball she always carried around sitting on my desk here where it has been since she left us. It is as dirty and matted and crushed as ever, but that's just the way it's going to stay, and everyone knows not to touch it. It used to hurt to see it, but now it makes me smile with fond memories - and a lot of gratitude. I learned so much from her and she put up with so much from me, and put together, her life has helped me be a much better "mom" to my boys now.

Each one leaves us a little bit wiser, and using that wisdom is the biggest tribute we can give them.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/07/10 01:03 PM

Sending you and Max hugging I hope you are hanging in there.

Jan, that is lovely to keep your girls ball where you can always see it hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 12:49 AM

It was a bit overwhelming the last day or so, and also trying to get caught up with work and spend some time with Max. I had been thinking of how I will pay tribute to my girl...

I came home from work today, and found that Pat had sent me a poster framed print of The Journey. How can I express what a wonderful comforting gesture? I am so fortunate to be surrounded by such caring and generous people.

I have felt a bit indulgent at times, continuing with my grief here, bit it is a safe and understanding place and you all are quite wonderful.

And tonight, this is the part of The Journey that resonates:

Quote:
If you pay attention and learn well, when the journey is done, you will be not just a better person, but the person your pet always knew you to be - the one they were proud to call beloved friend.


I must caution you that this journey is not without pain. Like all paths of true love, the pain is part of loving. For as surely as the sun sets, one day your dear animal companion will follow a trail you cannot yet go down.And you will have to find the strength and love to let them go. A pet's time on earth is far too short - especially for those that love them. We borrow them, really, just for a while, and during these brief years they are generous enough to give us all their love, every inch of their spirit and heart, until one day there is nothing left.


The cat that only yesterday was a kitten is all too soon old and frail and sleeping in the sun. The young pup of boundless energy wakes up stiff and lame, the muzzle now gray. Deep down we somehow always knew that journey would end. We knew that if we gave our hearts they would be broken.But give them we must for it is all they ask in return.


When the time comes, and the road curves ahead to a place we cannot see, we give one final gift and let them run on ahead - young and whole once more. "Godspeed, good friend," we say, until our journey comes full circle and our paths cross again.

http://www.petloss.com/onlineceremony.htm


teary
Posted By: cassadee7

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 01:09 AM

I love that picture of Indy. What a nice drawing.

Planting something is a nice idea. Or you could have a stone engraved to put in the yard for her. Sending peaceful thoughts your way.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 02:39 AM

Oh, my. I had never read that. I'm as close to sobbing as I hope I'll ever get for a while. teary

So many hugging to you.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 03:18 AM

I think that planting is also a great idea. The Rosa Rugosa looks hard to kill, and I love Jenn's parallels with Indy.

She didn't play with toys, but she loved to bark:
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 03:21 AM

I've been staring at that picture for so long, that I didn't see that you had posted about a half an hour ago Jan. The quoted piece above is so appropriate, is it not?
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 03:40 AM

Quote:
Like all paths of true love, the pain is part of loving.


teary So sad, uplifting, and true all at the same time. Sending you a great big hugging Lisa.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 05:16 AM

Hi Lisa,

Haven't posted in a day or two but am still thinking of you. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 07:05 AM

Thanks Ruth, Lexi, and the others from today that I wasn't able to properly acknowledge earlier.
Animal folks are the best - our hearts must be expanded in certain ways from living with our furry companions that other's hearts are not.

I was getting lunch today, and the person at the register, that I see regularly, looked at me and said I looked tired. I told her that my dog died. She was so sorry. Then she relayed a story to me of when her dog died 6 years ago, crying a bit as she said certain parts.

Folks at work, in general, have been stellar, some checking on me regularly. Many knew Indy. In her younger days, she often came to work with me, the benefit of having a smaller dog, I could get away with that. One semester I had a massage therapist in one of my calculus classes. LOL, I would turn around and she would be at his desk, getting a massage with his one hand as he took notes with the other. Now that was one smart dog wub
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 10:48 AM

What a beautiful photo of Indy with her dainty little feet wub I am so pleased that you have people who care and support you.

And please do not think of it as indulging in your grief here. After all, this is the place we all come to share...the happy and heartbreaking times as we all understand.

Sending you and Max lots of hugging
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 12:53 PM

what a gorgeous pic of Indy:) I'm still thinking of you
Posted By: myamom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 01:21 PM

I am so very very sorry Lisa. I haven't checked in due to issues here..but I never stopped thinking of you and praying for you...for peace during this difficult time. I will continue to hold you in my heart.

hugging
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 01:58 PM

I keep learning from people on this thread. Lisa who moved heaven and earth and now, even in her grief, offers cousel to people/dogs that need it. We also have all the wisdom and sadness about loss, eloquently provided by so many caring people.

Like the others Lisa, I read along every day and wish you peace.

Mary Jane
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 02:03 PM

Checking in Lisa. What a cute pic of Indy. smile
Posted By: debbieg

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/08/10 03:42 PM

Just saw this and typing through tears. I am so sorry for your loss. Know you will have her again where you can love without loss hugging
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 02:11 AM

Just popping in to send some hugging's south
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 02:56 AM

Exactly a week ago was a night of hell. I had to cook and cut two legs of lamb, since I was scrambling to feed Max while tending to Indy, and all night long she was barking and needy. I actually love that part, because I made sure she was able to sit out back for awhile, and out front, and finally with me as I held her tight and didn't know what else to do. I made it through this week...


I know that I will never feel entirely whole again, but I also know that at some point I will stop feeling shell shocked and like my soul has gone through WWIII.

I picked up her ashes today. A very nice plain box, heavier than I expected. Her regular chiro had commented how her dogs have very heavy boxes; she has Wolfhounds.

I didn't know Indy's ashes were ready to pick up. I had stopped by the vet's office to deal with billing issues. They were willing to credit my card for over $1,000 that I spent at that clinic during this and put it on CareCredit so that I can space out at least those payments interest free for a bit. After paying the retainer for a divorce lawyer recently, my savings had already taken a hit :(thanks to Joanne for suggesting that I ask the vet's office if they would do that!). I still have Max here who needs to be taken care of.

I saw the chiro vet there - the second of the three vets at that particular clinic that Indy had had an appt with during this whole ordeal. She just got back into town and hadn't heard about Indy. She was impressed with how well we had done in slowing the progression of the tumor with the alternative care that Indy had received all along. She was very kind.

We talked a bit about the treatment Indy and I received at UCD. She was disappointed. She made the connection that the attitude appeared to stem from a bias relating to the alternative care that Indy had received. I hadn't made that connection, and will have to think on that a bit. I don't know if that would make it better or worse than just thinking that is how they are with everyone. A peson from another clinic that does alternative treatments mentioned a number of clients with similar treatment - terrible treatment over there, many owners and professionals that will never refer there. The chiro vet asked if I had written a letter about the treatment, and I told her I was working on it.


I have to cook lamb tonight. Bad memories - bad vibe. I'll be glad when that is done. But I guess Max needs to eat crazy


Max appears so greatful for everything now - food, treats, walks. He is getting more walks too. Max is finally getting some of the attention I think he has craved all his life. We both have some healing to do, and I think my boy has some old wounds from before he came here that are also ready to heal.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 03:04 AM

hugging teary Sending you all the strength I have now. Prayers continue regardless.
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 03:31 AM

hugging to you and Max...
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 03:35 AM

Thank you Jan and Kris.

Kris, thinking also of you and your healing hugging
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 03:43 AM

Lisa I am impressed how you have been able to communicate your thoughts with all of us. I am really not good at that, I can help others but not all that good at accepting help from others when I am hurting.

I am really glad that you and Max are starting to heal together. Any possibility that Max could eat something besides Lamb? But maybe you need to do that to work though the process. If we avoided everything that reminded us of a dog we lost and caused us pain we would be in a very small world.

Give Max a hug for all of us and Max give Lisa a big kiss back.
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 03:58 AM

Oh Lisa. teary You are doing the best you can, and very well, all things considered. You and Max will pull each other through this; he'll lean on you and you'll lean on him...and we're always here for you too. Huge hugging to you and Max. smile
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 04:03 AM

It's funny Val, because usually I don't reach out, and usually I handle things very independently, but this is just too huge for me.

I find that there are thoughts or experiences, that if I don't say them out loud or reveal them somehow, they play over and over in my head, in an unending loop. I am typically not one to journal or write a diary, but writing here, stops the loop and allows me to move to the next thought or to experience the next emotions in this process.

Yikes, the lamb, I would love to find alternatives. Maybe eventually, but I've tested everything I can get my hands on, almost. Lamb at Castco is about $4.60 per pound. So I've tried anything cheaper than that. Sad to say, without Max's monthly food bill, I wouldn't need CareCredit!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 04:05 AM

Thank you Cheryl, I appreciate it!
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 04:20 AM

Yea we do what we need to do. Just wondering if it would be less expensive to venture out in the country and see if there are any farms around raising lamb, if there are I am sure they know of places to have it butchered.

Just an cost comparison. We have a hog and a steer done every 12 - 16 months.
For the hog all costs included it is $1.83 a pound. For the Steer all costs included it is $2.30 a pound. I am figuring the cost per pound as the whole cost of the live animal and the amount of pounds of meat I get back.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 04:35 AM

That might not be a bad idea at all - heck, I don't need lamb all the way from New Zealand!

I found an improvement in Max when I started cutting his meat into Indy sized pieces. I am hoping now, I can connect with him better and he can somehow guide me to getting him better. If he doesn't get better soon, I am certain he will get worse. I worry about the boy.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 04:57 AM

Lisa instead of cutting how about grinding. I would a meat grinder for a bit over $100 and it does a pretty good job of grinding things pretty fast.

You might run into a farmer that does their own butchering and if you didn't mind doing some cutting off of the bone they could just quarter it for you and you could haul it home. Or they could maybe cut it into smaller chunks.

I did a search for lamb producers in CA. This might be a place to start.
http://www.goldcountrysheepproducers.org/fieldday.html
Posted By: mspiker03

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 05:22 AM

Hey Lisa...
Check out flyingmulefarm.com (I think they are in Auburn area). There was an article in the Bee awhile back and I know they produce a dog mix (bone included...although I think you cook your food, if I am not mistaken). Their quote of the dog mix was 2.29/lb when I emailed them this spring/summer. They said purchases over $100 got %5 off (not sure if this is for all products or just the dog food).
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 05:55 AM

Thanks a bunch guys, I'll look at those resources when I get to my laptop.

I have a bed in the computer room that was for Indy only. Max had a different one. At the other end of the hallway is my bedroom, and Max has been laying in the doorway recently, in a funny way. I told him it's okay if he moves into the hallway, where he likes to lie.

He gets up, goes down the hall to the other end, into the dark computer room. Gets on Indy's bed, and digs, and kicks her blanket off, and then lies down. He just stares at me as I come in, I tell him it's okay, so now he's down there in a dark room on Indy's bed.

He was always trying to get on that bed - funny how he picked now, choosing to be isolated instead of here with me.
Posted By: shadow mum

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 09:52 AM

Lisa,

I have just finished reading through this entire thread. I was so sorry to read that Indy had passed. I have tears running down my face. You both fought so hard, and the way you described her last night....((hugs)). It reminded me of when my Smoke passed. He went within 24 hrs of first symptoms and waited for my DH to come home. Smoke gave DH a kiss on the nose and passed.

I'm sure that you and Max will be fine together in time.

Be free Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 10:25 AM

Thank you shadow mum. What a wonderful memory of Smoke, waiting for DH to come home to say goodbye hugging

Awfully strange cutting up the meat tonight, without little Indy underneath trying to scarf up any tiny scraps. She would end up with little flakes of meat along her back by the time I was done, funny girl.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 11:07 AM

Thinking of you and Max hugging Maybe him lying on Indy's bed is his way of grieving too frown
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 07:03 PM

Lisa, be watchful that Max doesn't seclude himself too much. Some dogs will sort of shut down after the loss of a pack member. They almost need to be pushed into a new routine. I know it isn't easy for either of you. Hugs to you and Max. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 07:33 PM

I will watch for that. He is unsure, and rather than pushing for anything, is just laying low in general, which is also why I am trying to walk him more. I sure wish we weren't still dealing with his back and leg problems, it would be nice to be able to take some car rides.
Posted By: proudshepmom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 11:12 PM

Lisa, I'm so sorry, I just now saw this. I don't know how I missed it. I was reading your response to another thread and saw your sig. I'm so sorry. You did everything you could. Indy was the luckiest dog in the world, and she knew that. I know she did, without ever having met her. You are tireless in your efforts to keep dogs (both yours and others') safe and healthy. She was fortunate to have been loved by you and Max.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/09/10 11:48 PM

Thank you Sara, I appreciate the kind words.

I still haven't been able to write her tribute. I think I'm still in shock a bit.
Posted By: SLEACHY

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/10/10 01:05 AM

Hi Lisa.
Stopping in to give you a hugging.
Today would have been my father's 71st birthday. He passed away last year. It was an emotional day for me and now I sit down and think of you and Indy. I hope you are doing ok.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/10/10 01:41 AM

Oh, thinking good thoughts of your father hugging thank you for taking time to think of us.

I am trying to clean up a bit. Laundry. I have a number of small blankets and such for Indy, she was a skinny girl, with not much fat - slept better when she was covered. Some of them are baby blankets. I don't think I can bring myself to get rid of some of them. She had a roll up sherpa blanket I would bring to the vet's. She wouldn't lay down on strange floors, but wherever that travel blanket was, she could be comfortable.

When she was a pup, I would take her to class, and I taught her to lay quietly on a blanket during class. That worked well for her all her life. I have a picture of her on her travel blanket at UCD, but I could never post it, she looked so sick.

I have a number of her jackets too. The rituals of grief and passing...
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/10/10 03:28 AM

I still have Kramer's "binkie" and it's huge. It was a full size puffy brown blanket that was my roommate's grandfathers (is that weird or what) and I can't get rid of it. He used to love that thing (literally). I want to use it for the other dogs but am so afraid they will rip it. You can get those weird vacuum bags (as seen in outer space or whatever) and put her things in it when you are ready - you will have them, and will feel like they are safe, but in a place that you can see them when you want to and all nice and compact. Just trying to offer some things that might work, or might not.

I am glad to see this thread going on.

And *when you are ready* PM me because I have a friend who has a dog with anaplasmosis, but I don't want to bother you.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/10/10 03:37 AM

Thank you Jean - those bags are a good idea when I have everything collected and am ready. I wish Indy's blankets were big enough for me to use smile

A friend at work, talking about the grieving he did for his dog, and having to take his kids to a fireworks show at the time, when it hit him, that it was time to take care of the living before taking care of the dead. And with that, do pm me...those darn tick diseases wait for no one frown
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/10/10 09:20 AM

Maybe you could stitch her blankets together to make a quilt? hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/10/10 07:46 PM

That's a really creative idea!

Last night changed the sheets on the bed, including the cover sheet with all her little hairs on it. She was even dainty in the way that she would shed.
I put the throw blanket used to keep her warm on the stair landing, in case she needs somewhere to lay in case she visits smile the blanket has a picture of a deer laying down. Indy often reminded me of a fawn (without the spots!), with her fine features and her well-defined face face features, and she would lay just like the fawns do around here wub
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 12:11 AM

It's been a good 3 wks since I've exercised. Between that, and all the lifting and carrying of Miss Indy, I'm kinda a wreck.

I'm halfway through exercising. Indy would lay at my feet when I exercised, so I had a separate blanket I would put down for her to lay on while I exercised, so I wouldn't step on her. So now I run across her "workout blanket" - our lives were so intertwined.


Exercising is hard, a symbol that life moves on. I don't know if I grieve extra hard now because I feel guilty that she is not here, or because I am afraid to move on without her - afraid that I will somehow forget her, or stop feeling her here. I am reassured by others that the feelings of grief will be replaced by those of love and positive memories, but I guess I fear of losing her completely. Silly, I know.
Posted By: LJsMom

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 12:41 AM

Not silly at all. You have nothing to feel guilty about. You will NEVER forget Miss Indy. She will always be near.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 01:21 AM

Thank you Joanne hugging
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 01:50 AM

Not at all silly, Lisa. I think there's always that fear that we'll forget, but that doesn't happen, I promise... hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 05:15 AM

I hope you are right!

I can still remember so much, including how soft her fur was, how slow and steady she would breath, how she would wake up and look at me, ready to go, if I just sat and watched her while she slept.
Lots of things I would hate to forget!
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 10:34 AM

Lisa I don't think we ever forget our special friends. In my experience it does get easier for sure to think of them with a smile not tears, and every now and then there may be a sad memory. But you will never forget your Miss Indy. Perhaps you could in time, write down all these precious memories you have of her. It doesn't have to be something that you look at all the time, but just something you know is there. hugging
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 03:47 PM

Nothing is silly about the way we grieve hugging

I can still feel Gogo's (my first cat, I was 5 when my brother found her) fur and can still hear her demanding someone come and look at the "catch of the day". We lost her in 1978. We never forget
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 04:05 PM

Lisa,

It's just not possible for you to forget Indy, she is part of you. As you said, your lives were intertwined.

From what you've written you are the person you are today, in part because of Indy.

take care,
Mary Jane
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 09:47 PM

My sweet Seiko has been gone for more than 9 years and I remember her like it was yesterday.

Funny though - unless I look at those last pictures of her during the time she was going down hill, I always think of her at her peak.

Oh my - she was so much 'my dog' and I tear up even today thinking of her. Seiko was rescued - I still can't believe I found her in a shelter and I have no idea of her background, but everyone should have a first shepherd like her. (OK - technically she was a mix, but mostly shepherd.)

Indy will be with all the days you have and she will continue to bring you joy.

hugging
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/11/10 09:49 PM

Hi Lisa,

Just checking in here to let you know we're still thinking of you and Max. Grieving is a process, that's for sure. Rafi and Cleo send their love too!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/12/10 04:15 AM

Thank you everyone.

I look forward to remembering her in her peak and the best of days, when we explored together and she ran like the wind, for sure having some whippet in her, or when she would lay calmly and survey and take in the sights and smells. Her little cheeks would puff with excitement when the smell was *really* good.

The images of the last days, and the thoughts of her mismanaged care, even at the end, are haunting.

She was such a wise and precious girl.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/12/10 11:16 AM

hugging Still thinking of you.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/12/10 05:32 PM

Thank you bianca. It's a very sad day today, thinking of Enya teary

Both Enya (from the other board) and Indy fought so hard in the end, and left a legacy in the hearts that they left behind.

rip strong Enya and dear sweet Indy
Posted By: UConnGSD

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/12/10 11:18 PM

Lisa, just checking in to see how you and Max are doing. You guys continue to be in my thoughts... take care hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/13/10 01:07 AM

Thank you UConn, I hope your stress at work is better too hugging

I was getting better, I think. I had been emailing the UCD vet, who appeared to be willing to help me find closure, I even emailed her the link to the xrays last night.

Today I receive an email from her. It appears that they have closed ranks, and they are in full CYA. The vet was told by her supervisors that she cannot even tell me the normal ranges for the CBC test, I would have to formally request those from the hospital.

This is all very difficult to process...The medical community harmed Indy immeasurably when she was young. Throughout her life, it has failed her miserably, except for a few rare gems. In the end, it continued to fail her, and, it was her and I left alone to fight, as it was all her life.

It just breaks my heart, on top of a broken heart.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/13/10 05:47 AM

I finally was able to write her tribute:
http://www.germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/93758/Indy_Eve_5_1_1997_10_2_2010.html
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/13/10 03:07 PM

I guess you must be one of those owners that vets are told to avoid because you are a risk for a law suit and all you really want is closure. How sad. I think I would formally request all the records - just because you can and you have a right to know.
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/13/10 03:23 PM

I'm sorry Lisa. frown I am sure that you are right, that they are just trying to cover themselves and/or they have policies in place to not discuss such things. Despite that, I know that out of anyone, you would be the one to get the answers you seek somehow.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 02:17 AM

I picked up a packet of vet records last night from the regular vet, which included the doctor summary from UCD. I'm still working on getting the blood results. I'm not sure I will be able to look at them for quite awhile though. The doctor's summary, which I read very quickly, was enough to show me that the UCD vet was just living in a different world than some of us live in - basically stating that I wasn't comprehending what she was saying which is why I didn't leave Indy there. I understood what she was saying all too well frown


Folks say that there will be some good days, and some bad days. Today was a bad day. Cried before work. On the way to work. At work. After work. Walking Max. Ugh, just a pretty crummy day.


Can't believe that it's been 12 days - what a fog the last couple of weeks have been. Work has probably been good for me, but I've been limping along - wish I could take some time off.

I wish the 90 degree weather would go away for good, it sucks, and is really bad for Max, he struggles in it. I really worry about him.
Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 02:38 AM

Oh Lisa, honestly those bad days will become less. You have to go through them because we loved out friends so much. I know it doesn't make it easier, but most of us understand.

Darn weather not helping with Max.

Hugs
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 02:46 AM

Thanks Val, it's nice that there is a place where folks understand. I slept downstairs on the couch last night, I thought maybe I wouldn't wake up so sad. Heh, didn't work!

Max is really trying to be a good boy. He feels like crap, I need to update his thread, but we are sticking close together and that helps. He's getting triple the walks he was getting previously, though they arshort walks.

It's so different walking him. Other than cat issues, they have always looked for different things. I think right now different is probably good though!
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 03:49 AM

It is good you and Max have each other. I know the bad days seem unending and hard to endure, but they do get better.

You have a lot to give us all and Max so you will find yourself busier and busier. And that is good. Sometimes we need a break from the sadness.

Cry for Indy all you need. And then one day you will feel yourself smiling at remembering something she did. And then the healing begins.

smile
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 04:04 AM

It's all a bit of a haze. I will be busy doing something, and it feels like she's at camp, or something silly like that (isn't that a funny thing to feel? who sends their dog to camp without them???). I think I am still in shock or denial about the permanence, and I'm able to face it only little by little. I can't even bring myself to talk to her, but I hope that will come in time too.

I'm supposed to go to this Animal Communication workshop on Saturday. REALLY bad timing. I am so not ready to be there.
Posted By: Kris

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 04:41 AM

Lisa, if you're not ready for the workshop, can you cancel? Don't push yourself into something that you're not emotionally ready for. But just maybe it can be a good thing... I know so many people who have felt great peace after talking with a communicator. If you go, I so hope it can bring you some comfort...

Crying is good. Cry all you want. But Bonnie is right. One day you'll wake up and the pain won't be so great. Or you'll wake up and smile at a thought of Indy instead of feeling that knot of sadness in your stomach. That is truly when the healing begins. We never, ever forget them, but the pain does become more bearable and with time, is replaced with lots of wonderful memories - even things you can laugh about! I've been there enough times that I know it's true...I promise... hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 09:00 AM

I flip-flop on whether the workshop will be a good or bad thing. I will try to go, and see what happens.

I know that I can't hurry the process, but it would be nice to have memories that make me smile. She was such a treasure.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 09:27 AM

Lisa it will take time, you shared 13 years together but Kris and Bonnie are right. One day the pain will start to ease bit by bit hugging

Hoping for better weather for Max.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 03:58 PM

Max and I thank you. It appears that we made it through another week, though Friday nights seem to be the hardest. Maybe it's good I have that workshop tomorrow. .
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/15/10 05:40 PM

I hope you have fun at the workshop, Lisa. We still think of you and send you and Max good thoughts.
Posted By: Mary Jane

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/16/10 01:23 AM

Lisa,

I think it's Friday night in Northern California and I just would like to offer any support I can.

The good that you and Indy did resounds.

MJ
Posted By: Karin

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/16/10 03:10 AM

Just checking in on you, Lisa, and hoping that you're doing OK this evening. I hope your workshop goes really well tomorrow. Big hugs to you and Max. hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/16/10 04:58 PM

Thank you for thinking of us!

We made it through another Friday night, had to cook lamb again. I have been meaning to clean out the last of Indy's cooked food from the fridge, well, maybe tonight.

I find that I'm hit with extreme and profound fatifue. It's not the depression thing where you just want to sleep, but pure fatigue in every ounce of my body. Maybe it's from the release of a lifetime of struggle, I don't know.

I am on my way to the workshop. I may choose to just work with the picture of Max. I don't know what to expect from the workshop, or in general. So off to my grand adventure of the day, hope your Saturdays are going well...
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/16/10 09:25 PM

I've been thinking of you today Lisa and the workshop - I hope it was meaningful for you

hugging and hugging
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/17/10 12:43 AM

Hi Lisa,

I know weekends must be really tough right now. Sending out many positive thoughts to you!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/17/10 02:27 AM

Weekends definitely are tough. I work like crazy to keep up during the week, and then suddenly I have some time and feel the emptiness more intensely.

I updated the Communicator thread here: http://www.germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/95034.html#Post95034

I was able to talk about some of the ways that Indy and I would communicate and learn about that, which was very helpful. I didn't cry too much wink I was among a safe crowd.

When we had to ask our own pets a question, I talked with Max, and it was very sad and made me cry. He is such a sweet boy, with lots of things he is unsure of right now.
I think I need a private consult with the woman, to help with Indy issues. I am not sure I am ready, but yet wonder if that means it's precisely what I need.

I was looking at the Acknoweldgements in the book I bought. The two people she credits with learning her dog stuff from is someone I met on the tick list eons ago, and also Indy's homeopathic vet. It's all a circle, isn't it?
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 02:10 AM

Just sitting here with my boys after a beautiful weekend thinking about you and wishing I could share some strength and peace. Stay well, my friend. hugging
Posted By: Lexi

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 02:29 AM

hugging to you and Max!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 03:35 AM

Thank you, it was a difficult weekend. We did take a walk this morning, which was nice. It rained a bit on us, but one good thing about rain, is that once you are wet, well, you don't get much more wet! Crappy cell phone pics - I need to clean the lens it looks like:





Today was the first cool day, and the weather was crappy. I hope to have better days so I can walk Max after work. Haven't been able to do that with stupid 90 degree weather in October.

He told the person I was paired with at the workshop this weekend that what he wanted most to do was walk in the tall golden grass. She thought it sounded stupid and that she got it wrong, but I knew exactly what he meant. So today we walked....personally, I hate the tall golden grass, foxtails and danger everywhere!

It's not the same without Indy there - she always smelled the best stuff, and would alert Max to it. But I guess we are going to have to get used a new normal.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 09:56 AM

That is just so wonderful and inspiring that Max could convey what he wanted. Hoping each week gets a tiny bit easier for you hugging
Posted By: JakodaCD OA

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 12:51 PM

thinking of you to, love the pictures, looks like a gorgeous place to walk ! Max looks GREAT!!

It's definately strange and hard adjusting to that empty space in the house and our lives, hang in there
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 04:44 PM

Awww what a nice place to go for a walk. Max certainly looks like he was enjoying himself. smile
Posted By: Kayos

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/18/10 07:11 PM

Looks like you guys had a nice walk and I am glad Max was able to communicate his wants and that you understood them. Hope each day gets easier for you both.
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 03:46 AM

Just know that I think you often Lisa
hugging
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 03:56 AM

me too hugging
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 04:02 AM

Gotta add that Max looks great!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 04:17 AM

Thank you everyone. Max is loving more time to walk.

I have a deep dark secret though, his pictures are carefully selected. In this picture you can see how incrdibly uncomfortable he is:



I am very worried about the boy. Tomorrow I will get him to the chiro and see if that can lift some of his pain, though I haven't yet figured out what I think is bothering him. All his tests, like Indy's are always negative. I'm not sure anymore if that brings me any peace of mind!!

There are a lot of firsts nowadays. Went to the real grocery store today since indy was sick. Didn't stay very long. Don't know when I'll be able to walk down the pork area without that big "gulp" feeling in my throat. Funny, I didn't expect even the grocery store to have such an impact.

Today was better than a number of the days last week though, so I guess that's progress.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 04:55 AM

Boy, I sure wish I knew how to say this without sounding insensitive or telling you you donít know what youíre talking about, butÖ

Do you think itís possible that Max is simply picking up on your unhappiness/sorrow/despair? I KNOW you are doing everything you feel is right to go on with life and make things right for Max, but dogs have a way of sensing that 1% that isnít totally there.

Are you sure there is something medically/physically wrong with him, and itís not simply that he is so attuned to you that he canít be whole himself until you are?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 05:02 AM

I am actually hoping you are right, but he's been not well this last year. Deep down, I am hoping he was picking up on Indy's illness for awhile and can now get better.


It's been quite the juggling act around here with the two of them. Now I have to make sure I get Max figured out.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 05:04 AM

Jan, forgot to write, I have no doubt that recent events and my reaction compound things - he is a sensitive boy.
Posted By: GrandJan

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 05:11 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Now I have to make sure I get Max figured out.


You will. (Need a "head-shaking yes" smiley here.)

We grieve and it's natural; dogs grieve and it's natural too. Both of your worlds have been turned upside-down. Together you will make them right-side-up again. bloomrose
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/19/10 05:25 AM

Thanks Jan, I appreciate both the support and the confidence smile
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 06:57 AM

In the category of things I am learning....

There is the trauma of death, and the trauma of loss.

I have not been exposed to a lot of death. I have thought about whether I should have had Indy euthanized earlier, but of the few things that I am certain, I am certain that that is not what she wanted. I think not having some of those last images in my head would be easier on me, but I guess then that would be replaced with other images or doubts. The actual process of her death has been hard for me to shake, but I feel that I honored her and who she was.

This last week was filled with not being able to shake the guilt and second thoughts. Not really logical, but that was where I was stuck. Yesterday I picked up the Bach essences recommended by UConnGSD to help, today was better, don't know if it was coincidence or the essences. The guilt is replaced with the loneliness of loss. But when that gets close to unbearable, I try to do something with Max and focus energy on connecting in a positive way with him.

The last 3 weeks have been a complete fog. I keep reminding myself that so many have been through this before, and it will get better. It helps knowing that.
Posted By: BowWowMeow

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 07:26 AM

healing from such a huge loss takes time. just keeping putting one foot in front of the other... hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 07:40 AM

Thank you Ruth butterfly gsdhalo
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 11:03 AM

Lisa I believe that the guilt and questioning yourself/doubt is unfortunately part of the grieving process. Sending you and Max lots of hugging
Posted By: kutzro357

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
In the category of things I am learning....

There is the trauma of death, and the trauma of loss.

I have not been exposed to a lot of death. I have thought about whether I should have had Indy euthanized earlier, but of the few things that I am certain, I am certain that that is not what she wanted. I think not having some of those last images in my head would be easier on me, but I guess then that would be replaced with other images or doubts. The actual process of her death has been hard for me to shake, but I feel that I honored her and who she was.

This last week was filled with not being able to shake the guilt and second thoughts. Not really logical, but that was where I was stuck. Yesterday I picked up the Bach essences recommended by UConnGSD to help, today was better, don't know if it was coincidence or the essences. The guilt is replaced with the loneliness of loss. But when that gets close to unbearable, I try to do something with Max and focus energy on connecting in a positive way with him.

The last 3 weeks have been a complete fog. I keep reminding myself that so many have been through this before, and it will get better. It helps knowing that.



I was never like that until I was truly touched by a dog many many years ago. That dog changed my life and spent almost every day with me even at work.
When I went on vacation out of the country the kennel let him get loose and he was killed.He would never run, was he looking for me? Did he think he was abandoned? You would have thought I was killed. The guilt and grief were unbearable My best friend was gone. He trusted me and I kenneled him and let him down. Guilt, pain and over the next few years even a hundred pounds. 12 years later I lost Kaiser, again guilt. What could I have down? Could I have saved him? What did I miss?
Time helps but it never goes 100% away and now I sometimes obsess over every little thing with the other dogs.
You're so not alone.
Posted By: PositiveDog

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 03:13 PM

Lisa, I wish I had some magic words, but I do not. Grief is such a difficult emotion.

I keep writing and deleting, because this is so hard to think about. But in the end, we can all only do what we think is best at the time.

Indy was a much loved and cared for dog. You were her life and you did well by her.

And now Max is needing so much, too. I know you must be drained and worrying about what is next. I hope Max rallys for you and you both have some peaceful and happy times together.

Are you eating and resting? Make the time to do that so that you do not get sick yourself.

We are all here for you.
Posted By: DancingCavy

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 03:58 PM

I think guilt is inevitable. Especially when we're so tuned into our pets and want to do what's best for them. Sometimes nothing can be done. But we've done so much over the years that it's hard to accept that. To sit back and realize it's the end. Then when the end comes, you still feel as though you might have missed something. Had you done 'this' or acted sooner that you could have saved them.

We all deal with death differently. I know I don't handle it well. Spent 3+ hours in my room bawling my eyes out, just sobbing miserably, when I came home for spring break and learned my guinea pig had passed away. I knew she'd been sick but that didn't make it any easier.

*HUGS* to you, Lisa. And pets to Max as you both continue to deal with the loss of your great friend, Indy.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/24/10 08:32 PM

Bianca and Jamie - I hadn't thought of the guilt as a normal part of the grief process, but it does make sense. For so many years, we try to do our best by them, and it is often so amplified near the end. I feel like there is so much that I missed, and how could I not know? I understand that that's not realistic, but it doesn't seem to help very much.

oh kutzro, I am soooo sorry! I knew that the loss was tragic, but I never knew the details. I guess the impact that they have when they leave us, no matter how they leave us, is just a testament to how deeply they affected us when they were here.

Bonnie, thank you hugging I am eating mostly at work, just can't bring myself to make food here, other than for Max, though I am working on that. So many years of cooking and preparing food for Indy in the kitchen, I bump into things everywhere. Too bad I'm losing muscle rather than the weight that I need to lose frown

Max and I are adjusting to the change of the energy in the house, but it is a very slooooow process.
Posted By: kutzro357

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/26/10 08:53 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
oh kutzro, I am soooo sorry! I knew that the loss was tragic, but I never knew the details. I guess the impact that they have when they leave us, no matter how they leave us, is just a testament to how deeply they affected us when they were here.



Don't be sorry. Everytime we lose one it hurts but I wouldn't trade that time for anything. (maybe a little more time with them)

Fragile Circle
"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached.
Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way.
We cherish memory as the only certain immortality,
never fully understanding the necessary plan."


Irving Townsend.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/26/10 03:36 PM

Thank you kutzro hugging

And I so agree on the "more time" thing...
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/29/10 10:47 AM

End of week 4, which really seems like the rest of the weeks. I am finding it difficukt to get anything done.

I have been trying for the last 3 weeks to get the blood tests from UCD. The phone calls are difficult to make, and I have to keep making them. My vet clinic requested them, but they sent the wrong thing. I don't exactly know what the issue is, but it makes it hard to move away from thinking about that ordeal there.
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/29/10 11:14 AM

Is it possible to write them a letter/email to demand the records so then you do not have to call? hugging Thinking of you and Max.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 10/29/10 04:03 PM

I may have to request it formally, but a fax to my vet clinic should have been the quickest. Even they are asking questions now frown

I'm hoping it's just a big SNAFU. I'll try to get the ER vet to send it herself this weekend. I had hoped not to bug her.
Posted By: Barb E

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 11/01/10 02:41 AM

Swinging through to leave more huggings
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 11/01/10 04:08 AM

Thank you Barb!

Seems like it's bound to get worse before it gets better raincloud ...but I"m still counting on that getting better part though.
Posted By: Braverhund

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 11/01/10 04:21 AM

Lisa, sending you good thoughts, and for Max, too. Hoping that your healing progresses smoothly. Such a profound loss, and she really was a guardian of your heart, your special girl. I understand that healing after a loss is so individual. Wishing you strength and whatever measures of comfort that you find to help you through. Continuing good thoughts your way from Grimm and me.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 11/01/10 05:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Braverhund
... she really was a guardian of your heart, your special girl.


wub wub wub

Thank you for the support Patti - it seems there is a new "first" to face on an ongoing basis - the first time without her walking in her favorite spot for example, and she had lots of favorite spots!
Posted By: bianca

Re: kennel cough or congestive heart failure? - 11/01/10 10:01 AM

hugging
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