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Broken Nail

Posted By: Furonthefloor

Broken Nail - 09/29/12 04:27 PM

Not sure if this is the right spot for this.

Tebo broke a piece off his nail near the nail bed about 1 month ago. He went to the vet & she said it was an "old accident" due to the stripe visible on the nail. His nails are black & that one had a white stripe down it. It's been like that a long time, but I'm not sure how long. He got abx, pain pills & a rubber boot.
So 2 days ago a whole different nail came off on the same foot!

Here is a picture. All his nails have splits on the underside. Sorry for picture quality.



We've been to the vet again, but what I'm wondering from you guys is. What would you do, change, add, delete to his diet to help this problem: split crumbly nails. Mikko's are also dry, crumbly,thick,hollow, but Angelo's nails are fine. They are raw fed now about 3 yrs w/ salmon oil & vitamin E.
I ordered a multi vitamin & am increasing the eggs in his diet. Is this enough? What else is there? Could this have just been a fluke accident or is there more to it(diet, nutrition). He runs extremely rough outside & there are plenty of things he could have broke the nails on I guess.(small stumps, uneven terrain, rocks etc)

One of my raw books says in it "Do not be tempted to supply extra calcium. By feeding plenty of bones, you have catered for your dog's calcium and other mineral needs perfectly."
So I'm coming to you guys once again to help me figure this out. I'm not an expert with what supplements/vitamins/minerals are needed in this. I'm finding some conflicting advice.

**Also is the whole part that's left the actual quick or is part of it new nail? I should have asked the vet, but didn't think of it till I got home.
Posted By: DarkEyes

Re: Broken Nail - 09/29/12 05:59 PM

I haven't experienced this but here are some thoughts to explore:

It sounds like you are doing good on the nutrition part... but the nails look... weird. Like maybe there was an infection. Maybe there is a fungal infection of some sort?

Are Tebo and Mikko from the same parents? Maybe this could be hereditary for nails to fall apart.

Are you keeping the nails short? If you let them grow too long, they may get old and fall apart prematurely, which would make sense why they look weird.

Is it possible you can show pictures of the nails that are currently on the dogs? I'm curious to see what they look like now, before they fall off.
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 09/29/12 06:53 PM

Thanks for the reply. No Tebo & Mikko aren't related. We call Mikko's nails gnarly they are awful thick,wide things. I was interested to know if raw diet could make nails grow faster, but didn't find that info.
I'm not good with the pics but I'll try to get some.
Posted By: middleofnowhere

Re: Broken Nail - 09/29/12 07:59 PM

My old guy (I got him at 6 I think it was) came with gnarly nails. My vet diagnosed it (it has a fancier name) and we've been treating it with niacidimide, antibiotics and a vitamin capsule that has fish oil.

It's working.
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 09/29/12 08:27 PM

Middle: will he be taking all that forever or is it a condition that will heal eventually? I assume he'll take the vitamin & fish oil, but will he take the niacidimide & antibiotics? Does this name--Onychorrhexis--look familiar to the fancy name? Just curious.
Posted By: BasiaBear

Re: Broken Nail - 09/29/12 10:04 PM

Ouch that looks painful. I am of no help with the nutrition aspect, sorry. I think that DarkEyes has a lot of good thoughts. One more thing that I was thinking...if too many injuries occur or if there is injury to the part of the nail that grows, it can cause future growth problems. I remember one of my physio professors told me that she injured hers and from then on it never grew back the same so she needed surgery to remove the part that makes it grow. Also I know people who play soccer with the same issues. Not sure if it would translate to dogs but it's a thought.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 09/30/12 07:28 AM

The autoimmune nail condition is Symmetrical Lupoid onycodystrophy, treated with doxycycline, niacinamide, and some supplements. I hope that' not it, but have een several GSDs on the forums with it frown

I would try the supplements too - adding to your list, as Middle said, Fish Oil at therapeutic doses, biotin, and zinc. WDJ had an article on this, but can't go looking for it right now.

Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 10/18/12 09:32 PM

Just an update. Since I first posted Tebo has had 4 more nails come off! One more is on it's way & several others are "seeping"/crusty at the bases. Poor guy! I feel so bad for him it is very painful. The nails are actually lifting off the quick.
The vet has him on an antifungal--Fluconazole & of course pain pills. She is also consulting a specialist trying to get more info.

Also I have him on the supplements multivitamin (450mg Ca), salmon oil, Vit E, biotin & eggs with his meals.

Cross your fingers they can figure something out that helps his poor toes! frown
Posted By: Qyn

Re: Broken Nail - 10/19/12 12:28 AM

crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 11/02/12 10:05 PM

Well, the dermatologist/vets that my vet consulted wanted her to amputate his toe. She's not happy with that advice. Still hoping she can find someone who has an idea.
They do think it is Pemphigis or one said DLE.

Does anyone know anyone who has ever treated DLE or Pemphigis?

He's now lost 7 nails, in pain & is walking so tenderly my poor guy. frown
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Furonthefloor
Just an update. Since I first posted Tebo has had 4 more nails come off! One more is on it's way & several others are "seeping"/crusty at the bases.


If this is affecting more than one nail, amputating the one makes no sense.

This actually sounds like SLO, which happens in GSDs, is controlled with supplements and a doxycycline/niacinamide protocol. Middle has a dog with this, can't think of the name, will have to look for links, etc., later.
Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 12:44 AM

Yes, SLO. Symmetrical Lupoid Onychodystrophy like Lisa said. No amputations, so that's good.

There is a Yahoo group too: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOdogs/

Actually if your vet VINs (Veterinary Info Network that they can be a part of) it there is a nice treatment protocol. My vet got it from there for me when Amy's Bear (beautiful black GSD girl) had it.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_9/features/Dog-Toenail-Problems-Slo_20345-1.html

Oy. Glad your vet wasn't big on that info back!
Posted By: Jane Jean

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 01:05 AM

My friend has a greyhound with SLO...she gives niacinamide and fish oil supplements but as it is an auto immune disorder, there are still flare-ups where the nails just rip out. And they look horrible cracking and so weakened.
She puts booties on her dog when outside in the winter so the feet are less irritated from the ice/snow.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 05:06 PM

Yes, that's exactly the disease I was thinking of, and thanks for the link jean!

Kinda sad that the vets miss this, but I think it's fairly rare, though we've seen several between the two forums.
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 05:54 PM

First thank you so much for the feedback & links they were SO helpful & easy to see YES that's exactly what it is.
I didn't understand when I was told "form of lupus" & nothing that I looked up matched with his symptoms, The links I looked up only talked about sores, hair coming off muzzle & depigmentation--which he doesn't have any signs of. All the people she talked to especially University of Florida wanted the toe! Anyway I get it now.

Armed with printed info from the sites, I went to vet this am to talk more with her. She's on the same pg as this (SLO) just didn't say the name of it on the phone so I got concerned we still didn't know what we were dealing with even after consults. I'm currently dealing with a crisis & also admit to not having the clearest head right now, but just wanted some relief for this poor guy!

Now he's got his medicine, I thank you all for your help & input! I swear I say it all the time this place has the best resources anywhere--you guys, well girls.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 06:44 PM

I hope this dog also gets on the supplements, they are important.

Hope your crisis is over soon too hugging
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 08:59 PM

Yes I also have him on the supplements too. Thanks Lisa.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 11/03/12 10:08 PM

Oh good, just checking.
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 11/14/12 02:21 AM

Just in case anyone ever comes across this stupid disease. I'll post a couple pictures. This is absolutely awful. It's so painful. Tebo was a very active boy, he went from bursting out the back door running nonstop to limping very tenderly to the door (1 day recently he wouldn't even walk). Here you can see why.

The nails lift straight up. Like if you put the hood up on your car. Then they usually hang on 1 or 2 days.


Notice the angle of the outer nail? See the long skinny thing under the lifted nail!

He's on 10 1000mg fish oil caps a day, 2 400IU vitamin E, Biotin, multvitamin, Pentoxyphylline, Fluconozole & Tramadol. I had always given salmon oil & vit E, but I've switched to the fish oil caps, since I couldn't figure the exact dosage of EPA on the liquid Grizzly Salmon Oil it said 9% EPA(?). The EPA dose I have him on is 180mg/10# of dog.

I am very thankful this dog has a strong stomach. He's always been an "adventurous eater" he will even take those fish oil caps & eat them. Although I usually give them in his food (under chicken skin or in hamburger) but they've fallen out & he will just pick them up & eat them. I think that's really cool. I'd hate to have to shove all those pills down his throat.

11 nails off at this point, 3 more in various stages of lifting & a crusty dew claw, so I'm assuming that's going to go to? We go Thurs. for a recheck.

And just because he's really a sweet boy...
SLO sucks frown
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 11/14/12 08:03 AM

Oh no, this is so very terrible frown

I hope that after he is on the protocol for awhile, things will get better. If he doesn't improve soon, I would add the doxycycline/niacinamide to the protocol.

Darn it, so not fair.
Posted By: bianca

Re: Broken Nail - 11/14/12 08:54 AM

Oh my goodness I missed this. Your poor sweet boy hugging
Posted By: Qyn

Re: Broken Nail - 11/14/12 01:24 PM

Poor guy I hope the pain meds are helping with this. He is a gorgeous boy and I wish you were not going through this. hugging
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: Broken Nail - 11/14/12 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Oh my goodness I missed this. Your poor sweet boy hugging


Me too. Hope the meds start to help him soon. Sorry you are having to go through this.

Once Sasha tore off a toe nail and the vet had me put liquid band-aid on the exposed quick and these little booties so she wouldn't lick it and to protect her outside- didn't know if this info might help

These are the type booties we used

http://www.affordabledogsleds.com/booties.htm
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 11/15/12 06:51 PM

Thank you for your responses. This disease is so painful, it's very hard to watch him go through it. The medications take a while to get in the system...but hard to be patient while watching your dog in such obvious pain!

I have boots for him. Unfortunately at the present time his paws are too sensitive & painful even with the pain meds he's too sore to put a boot on. Maybe he could use the boots when moer of a covering grows out on the nail? Not sure.

We go in today for our recheck.

I need to find out what this disease leads to in the future. That's been worrying me.
Posted By: Hatterasser

Re: Broken Nail - 11/16/12 04:23 AM

Oh dear, I've just found this thread. How horrific. I'm so hurting for your Tebo.

I can't offer anything but sympathy but hoping whatever you heard today during his check-up is good news for the future. Once this is over, hopefully this is the last of it.
Posted By: Jane Jean

Re: Broken Nail - 11/16/12 04:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Furonthefloor
Thank you for your responses. This disease is so painful, it's very hard to watch him go through it. The medications take a while to get in the system...but hard to be patient while watching your dog in such obvious pain!

I have boots for him. Unfortunately at the present time his paws are too sensitive & painful even with the pain meds he's too sore to put a boot on. Maybe he could use the boots when moer of a covering grows out on the nail? Not sure.

We go in today for our recheck.

I need to find out what this disease leads to in the future. That's been worrying me.

What did the vet say about Tebo's condition?

I would think the boots may irritate/rub on those fragile paws, so not a good idea at this time.
When my friends greyhound was at that stage(in your pics) she put on childrens toddler size sox with vetwrap tape to hold them up. Her dog didn't mess with the sox, but would chew her nails, so the sox were just a barrier to keep her from chewing.
It took her dog 3 months to slough off the nails and regrow. The new ones are not strong and will break easily. She puts the heavier booties on to go outside in the snow/ice to protect the feet. Amber still walks as if she is in some pain....even the grass tickles her toes as her feet are really sensitive.
At least GSD's have stronger foot pads and larger pressure points than a greyhound....hopefully the larger/pads & feet protect the nails on Tebo!
Posted By: bianca

Re: Broken Nail - 11/16/12 07:51 AM

Is there any update from the vet?
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 11/16/12 03:47 PM

She agreed about boots being too painful. It sounds good, but when you see him in person it's obvious anything touching them causes sensitivity-pain, all depending on what phase of lifting the nail is in. I only brought it up, because I read on the SLO site that some people were using them, so I wondered how important covering feet when going out to prevent infection or something like that was. He licks his toes/nails gently & sometimes cries. He never chews, which she thought was probably because they were too sore.
She was able to trim the dew claws with only a yelp.

She took pictures & sent them to the dermatologist that she's been consulting with. She wants me to add Prednisone 20mg twice daily & an antibiotic Cipro 500mg twice daily. Soak his feet in Epsom salt 2-3x daily.
She said to be aware it's an extremely frustrating disease to deal with. She mentioned how frustrating it is to read online that you can "cure" it w/ vit E & fish oil. I agree important, but realize that isn't the case here nor was it with her dog. So maybe it depends on how bad it comes on or another factor. There are many cases online where the dog only ever lost 1 or 2 nails. Tebo's is severe & he will lose ALL his.
He's in less constant severe pain like he was on the weekend. Each day that passes I guess helps harden that exposed quick so it slowly becomes less painful.
A stupid squirrel was fooling around in the yard & he went to run/leap at it & decided it wasn't worth it. He just walked away! Never saw that happen before.

Jane-Jean thank you for telling me about your friend's greyhound. It sounds very similar in that Tebo's nails are on about that same timeframe--end of Nov will be 3 months. I was beginning to wonder if he'll ever feel good enough to run on his feet or if he'll never run again. I'm anxious to see if the new nails will grow attached crossedfingers ever since I heard they could grow back & continue to lift.
How long has the greyhound been dealing with this? Tebo is/was healthy other than this. Do you know if this leads to any other kind of disease/problems or anything? Was there an actual change in the look of the greyhounds feet. I swear Tebo's feet structure looks different. Especially the back feet. **Excuse this awful description: I *think* they look skeletal or splayed, longer (even the color used to be a reddish brown & seems washed out pale color now) more where they used to be those compact, thick rounded feet. I'm guessing this all could be explained by pain. Changing the shape due to the way he's holding/walking on the paw?
Posted By: Jane Jean

Re: Broken Nail - 11/16/12 10:28 PM

Amber the Greyhound came down with it 2 yrs ago, about this time of year. So far she is maintaining well~though her nails are ragged and look dried out, almost dead. I do remember her owner did soak her feet(completely forgot that til you mentioned it!)which did soothe her. She's still on niacinamide and a supplement from the vet~ fish oil/E and C are in it.
What is so odd about this condition, Amber is really healthy, never has ear infections or digestive problems. She does shed alot for a GH but I almost think it is diet related(she's on a rotation of Purina one Lamb and Science Diet!) The owners son is a vet and tells his mom what to feed....
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 11/17/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Furonthefloor
S
She took pictures & sent them to the dermatologist that she's been consulting with. She wants me to add Prednisone 20mg twice daily & an antibiotic Cipro 500mg twice daily. Soak his feet in Epsom salt 2-3x daily.

There is a successful protocol for this, and that is the supplements with doxycycline and niacinamide. I would not go the pred route unless that combination of meds has failed.

Adding pred brings a whole host of other problems, and seems premature at this point, since the doxy/nia hasn't been tried. And it should be started at an aggressive dose, 5 mg/lb twice a day, and the nia, for a larger dog, 500 mg twice a day, though I would double check with Middle on what she is using.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 02:49 PM

Quote:
Just in case anyone ever comes across this stupid disease. I'll post a couple pictures. This is absolutely awful. It's so painful. Tebo was a very active boy, he went from bursting out the back door running nonstop to limping very tenderly to the door (1 day recently he wouldn't even walk). Here you can see why.

Furonthefloor: Thank you so much for posting the pics, I sent you a PM just a few moments ago.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 03:09 PM

Hi everyone,

Unfortunately, our Riley was diagnosed with SLO just yesterday. I won't go into all the details here because ya'll are familiar with it. To date he's lost 7 nails since June 1st, 4 on one rear foot, a dew, one on the other rear foot and one on a front foot.

When all this first started happening we thought he'd gotten his foot caught between the wires in his crate ripping out one nail and really bruising up his foot in his panic to free himself thus causing the other nail loss because the first four nails came off the same foot. No one was home when it happened so we didn't know how it happened but our human-sense made it perfectly logical that it was crate related. In fact we could think of absolutely nothing else that would have caused this. The loss of the dew claw we figured was him catching it on the chain link fence going off on a dog across the yards and just a really bad run of bad luck with his toenails. It all just seemed soooo logical and so I'm really kicking myself for not investigating sooner.

I even had his foot x-rayed because his middle toes were "flipping up" when he'd get to the "push me forward" point of walking. It was soooo strange looking I figured he broke something. 2 x-rays and a flouroscopy showed nothing broken or disjointed. I wasn't going to have a minute's peace until someone could tell me what's wrong with my dog! Two vets found nothing wrong so I went on my own research hunt and horrifically he matched up perfectly with SLO.

When I faxed all the info I found to my vet she immediately consulted with the UW Vet Hospital Dermatology dept in Madison and they told her to not even bother with cultures or biopsy because the ONLY thing it could be is SLO. No point in putting him through any painful testing. I would have turned myself inside out looking for other possibilities if they'd told me they wanted to take a toe!

My sister suggested the sock thing, too. I did buy some but I too was afraid they might add to his pain from rubbing. I'm waiting to hear from the vet on sock use.

Would someone please point me to the niacinamide they use? I found several and even spoke to the Walgreens Pharmacist because they didn't have niacinamide (he told me I'd never find it by that name anyway) and so he told me niacin was the same thing. Don't know if I should use the flush or no-flush version. I'm assuming no-flush since he really doesn't need hot flashes on top of everything else but I want to be sure. I haven't given him any niacin yet because I'm waiting to hear from the vet on what I found out at Walgreens. I found niacinamide at Vita Cost in tablet form which would work much better than capsules for him.

He got his first dose of doxy this morn. After I find the right niacinamide I will add that. He's also on fish oil and I have to go back and find how much Vit E he needs to go along with the fish oil.

I hate that it takes so long after they start on meds to get any relief frown when I read overnight that they can go lame from SLO that really scared me!
Posted By: Woodreb

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 04:21 PM

Niacin and niacinamide are not exactly the same thing, they are different chemicals.

"Nicotinamide, also known as niacinamide and nicotinic acid amide, is the amide of nicotinic acid (vitamin B3 / niacin). Nicotinamide is a water-soluble vitamin and is part of the vitamin B group. Nicotinic acid, also known as niacin, is converted to nicotinamide in vivo, and, though the two are identical in their vitamin functions, nicotinamide does not have the same pharmacological and toxic effects of niacin, which occur incidental to niacin's conversion. "
from here

I don't have a recommendation on where to get the niacinamide, but don't believe anyone who tells you they are the same thing. It's true that niacinamide is formed from niacin, but that doesn't make them the same thing.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 05:56 PM

Oh no, I am sooooooo very sorry. This ranks up there with perianal fistulas, painful, life altering frown

I just bought niacinamide OTC. I guess aking the pharmicist about supplements and not drugs, he hadn't a clue. This is the one I used, though I don't think there is a huge difference between major brands: http://m.vitacost.com/natures-way-niacinamide

I had Max on doxy/niacinamide for his PF. The Derm and I were really never sure if how much of a difference the nia made, but we used it. I think I gave 500 mg twice a day. The doxy is the most potent part of the protocol. Hopefully after you get it under control, you can back off some.

When indy flaired with her autoimmune stuff, I always put her on Jarrow's True CMO, a beef-based cetyl myristoleate (more effective than the veggie based). At higher dosages, it can help keep the autoimmine process in check to some degree. It helped max's PF too, so it might be something to consider. http://m.luckyvitamin.com/p-16440-jarrow-formulas-true-cmo-380-mg-60-capsules

In autoimmune conditions, the vitamin E in itself can help. The internal med vet had me give indy (at 35 lbs) 400 IU per day for her (we thought he might have lupus at one point), so I'm sure one of these per day (or a similar one) would be sufficient for the fish oil and the extra good for the autoimmune condition and two might even be helpful: http://m.vitacost.com/twinlab-super-e-complex-400-iu-250-softgels

This is such a terrible condition frown Please keep us posted on how things are going.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 06:25 PM

Thank you smile I'm glad I didn't open the niacin so I can take it back. He mentioned something about acid and that just rubbed me the wrong way - acid doesn't seem like something you use to cure open wounds! I realize it's not acid per se but the correlation was just disturbing.

Still no word from my vet and she's prolly in surgery by now. If I don't have an email from her when I get up I'll be calling her again bright and early tomorrow morn. At least I can do doxy, vit e and fish oil right now. The more I look at the pics posted on another page in this thread the sicker I feel about the whole thing.

Has anyone heard anything about a raw diet contributing to this? I read some dog foods that are known allergens to dogs might contribute.

Nail #8 is now on it's way off ...
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Woodreb
Niacin and niacinamide are not exactly the same thing, they are different chemicals.

"Nicotinamide, also known as niacinamide and nicotinic acid amide, is the amide of nicotinic acid (vitamin B3 / niacin). Nicotinamide is a water-soluble vitamin and is part of the vitamin B group. Nicotinic acid, also known as niacin, is converted to nicotinamide in vivo, and, though the two are identical in their vitamin functions, nicotinamide does not have the same pharmacological and toxic effects of niacin, which occur incidental to niacin's conversion. "
from here

I don't have a recommendation on where to get the niacinamide, but don't believe anyone who tells you they are the same thing. It's true that niacinamide is formed from niacin, but that doesn't make them the same thing.


Thank you - you confirmed my suspicions that I shouldn't be using niacin! I found niacinamide so I will order that.
Posted By: middleofnowhere

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 06:44 PM

niacidamine (sp) is available at whole foods so probably most organic health food stores.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 06:57 PM

Deb, you're on this right away and sounds like you will treat aggresively, so I hope that you can manage this.

Can you think of any recent triggers? Stomach bug? Vaccination? Etc?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 07:18 PM

I don't feel like I'm on it right away. I'm beating myself up for not researching sooner. I was your typical dumb dog owner relying on stupid human common sense reasons as to what was going on and listening to two vets tell me they couldn't find anything wrong to cause the broken nails until the last 3 days. We figured he got his foot caught in the wire crate which broke a nail and probably badly bruised the foot causing the rest of the nails to fall off. When the middle nails popped up again we just figured it was because he must have really bruised it badly. NOW we know he didn't do diddly to his foot and I feel like a real fool and he's paying the price for my lack of knowledge. I try hard to be a good FurMom and I feel like I let him down.

At least about three months ago we decided to get pet insurance. I just had it in my head that they're getting older and GSD's are prone to some expensive illnesses/conditions especially as they get older. It was like a little voice was pushing me to do what we've yakked about off and on for a few years now. His hips cost us a fortune and if I'd gotten the insurance when he was younger they would have been covered, too! I wasn't gonna financially go there again.

Last vaccine was like April, his usual annual stuff. Can't think of anything at the moment. I didn't know there were triggers. My reading mentioned possible genetics, another processed dog food but nobody seems to know for sure what brings it on. One place mentioned raw diet so I'll be trying to find more on that. The last thing I wanna do is take him off raw, he eats every meal and hasn't puked a one up in like 3 years. I do NOT want to get back on the processed dog food merry-go-round! Right now I'm gonna try to not even think his raw diet is causing this. His hips were genetic so maybe this is, too. Anyway, if I think of any other possibilities I'll let you know. Oh, we give them a couple spoonfuls of Greek fruit yogurt mixed with cottage cheese a few times a week. Anyone know if that might contribute?

His walking is getting more and more tender-footed today frown It's going to be a REALLY LOOOONG 6-8 weeks and I have a feeling it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Oh, I use the LambertKay Fresh'n'Clean cologne dog spray quite often on their bedding and all our furniture and throw rugs.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
niacidamine (sp) is available at whole foods so probably most organic health food stores.


We don't have a Whole Foods. I just ordered some from VitaCost, should be here in just a few days. Thanks!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/18/13 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: FurKids
I don't feel like I'm on it right away. I'm beating myself up for not researching sooner. I was your typical dumb dog owner relying on stupid human common sense reasons as to what was going on and listening to two vets tell me they couldn't find anything wrong to cause the broken nails until the last 3 days. We figured he got his foot caught in the wire crate which broke a nail and probably badly bruised the foot causing the rest of the nails to fall off. When the middle nails popped up again we just figured it was because he must have really bruised it badly. NOW we know he didn't do diddly to his foot and I feel like a real fool and he's paying the price for my lack of knowledge. I try hard to be a good FurMom and I feel like I let him down.

I think this is pretty normal, please don't beat yourself up. I know that these GSDs can do a lot of damage to themselves because they just push through things in order to do what they want to do.

Great on the timing of the insurance!


Quote:
Last vaccine was like April

This is the trigger frown No more vaccines for Riley. Ever. A dog with SLO shouldn't be vaxed anyway.

Most of the immune-system damaging vaccine reactions will occur in a 2-3 month time frame (except that there is some evidence that back issues clump around 6 months post vax).

I asked about triggers because something like this just occurring, after not having this disease when younger, seems like there was a trigger. The aging immune system may have something to do with it, but I wholeheartedly believe that the vaccination was the trigger.

Quote:
His walking is getting more and more tender-footed today frown It's going to be a REALLY LOOOONG 6-8 weeks and I have a feeling it's going to get worse before it gets better.

I probably will get worse before it gets better, but I sure hope that he gets better quick.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/19/13 03:31 AM

No vaccines? Do you have a link to something so that I can prove this to my vet? I haven't seen anything on this at all the reading I've been doing.

I am finding out that GSD's seem to top the breed list for being prone to SLO frown

Starting to feel less guilty, from what I'm reading this comes on fast without a lot of warning and most people deal with it similarly at first. Losing a toenail or two doesn't trigger concern right away.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/19/13 04:35 AM

Nissa's annual is coming up in Sept/Oct. You got me thinking she shouldn't have any vaccines either in order to prevent this from happening to her. Do people actually find a way to not vaccinate their dogs? What do you do when your city requires a rabies vaccine in order to license? Can your vet write some kind of "health hazard to vaccinate this dog w/rabies" letter and be excused from rabies vaccine?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/19/13 07:04 AM

I'm glad that you are not being as hard on yourself.

Only healthy dogs should be vaccinated (it says on the label that the vax is only for healthy animals, at least every label I've seen). A dog with an autoimmune disease is not a healthy animal, so vaccination in that case is not only off-label, it's ethically wrong. Depending on your vax schedule and which vaccines you are talking about, the argument might be slightly different.

Rabies is a problem though, depending on your state. Indy had a waiver letter that the county accepted without the bat of an eye, though I had to hook up with a holistic vet to get the letter, my regular one wouldn't write it. I titered Jazz here for rabies (and parvo/distemper), and her rabies was excellent, so the internal medicine vet wrote a letter exempting her for this year (she is battling something IBD-ish). Some states, like Rhode Island, are barbaric, and getting the vax is almost the only option. Call your local animal control and ask them directly - your vet will not know, and it seems to vary highly by locality.

What vax did he get in April?

What vax schedule have you been following - how frequently for which vaccines?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/19/13 08:15 AM

I don't know what vaccs w/o asking my vet. The usual (plus the kennel cough as a just in case I would have to kennel them in an emergency) is all I can tell you but he was not due for 3 year rabies this year so no rabies that will be next year.

Both dogs go once a year for their annuals and they receive "the usual" shots. I'm sorry I can't do better than that. I know, that's so wrong of me. Is there one or more in particular I should find out about?

I've been doing a lot of crying tonight. I just am not dealing well with his pain and I'm feeling a LOT of anger because this is just so wrong he should be suffering like this. He's being sooooooo good and stoic it's amazing. He spends a lot of time laying down, I would imagine to keep his weight off his feet but he still charges the window when someone goes by albeit not quite as forcefully as our normal Riley but he gives it the old college try.
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: Broken Nail - 07/19/13 05:41 PM

Deb I am so sorry this is happening to Riley. You are right it is not fair and it sucks! Every time one of our babies gets hurt or sick it isn't fair and I often wonder why too. I guess that it is just how life goes sometimes.

You absolutely should not beat yourself up for thinking he had hurt his foot. You had no way to know any different. A dumb dog owner wouldn't have noticed the nails- you noticed, theorized, cared and took him to TWO vets plus xrays!! That is being proactive and a good dog owner and advocate. Learning that the vets were 'wrong' and that they should have known more and done more sooner sucks- but you are not the vet and dont have all the answers and shouldn't! That fact that you had to be a vet, learn, research and present to your vet the problem is more than most would do and you should feel proud of yourself for that. The 'vets' should feel bad as you've now had to do their job. I read and see about this more and more, where the owner become the 'vet' and advocate- you did good!

I'm really really glad you decided to get pet insurance, one less huge worry for you and that means a lot right now!

The vaccinations- most all vets now are following the newly, well since like 2006, adopted practice of vaccinating every 3 years. It would be very old school thinking to do every 1 yr and many are seeing past 3 years now. I would read and copy this pdf and discuss it with your vet, or decide for yourself and tell your vet what you're going to do. Rabies is the only vaccination required by law, the rest you can decide and say NO to. For now and maybe forever I would get a rabies pass like Lisa suggested for Riley.

http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf

Personally I give puppy shots, boost at one yr and then again in about 5 years or so when the dog is around 6 I would do a single distemper followed by a single parvo a few weeks apart and then they're good for life. I personally do rabies every 3 yrs as required. You can do a titer test to measure immunity, but I've never felt they were worth the money.

Give my best to Riley and let us know how he gets along.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/19/13 06:09 PM

Hi Natalie,

You are very sweet and I sure do appreciate your support along with everyone else's here. I am proud that I found out what was wrong but to me it doesn't matter who figured it out as long as we know what it is and what to do about it to fix him as best we can with the hand he's now been dealt. I'm lucky I have a husband who will go to the ends of the earth for our furkids. He doesn't care how much it costs or what it takes. We do it smile And this from a guy who really didn't want another dog 7 years ago wink six months after our last Yorkie went to Rainbow Bridge.

Thank you for the link, I'll pass it along to my vet and read it myself.

No more vaccines for either dog. Nissa is just 10mos younger than Riley and if the vaccines are the trigger I'm *not* taking a chance she'll get this, too.

I'm going to talk to my city officials and see about getting them both exempt from rabies, don't think I'll have any luck with Nissa on that but being that Riley is already affected I might be able to get a waiver with some sort of verification from our vet.

It sounds like I can do my own titers. Can someone point me where to find what I need to do it and how to do it? I know you don't think they're worth it but if I have to prove to the city officials I'd like to see what's involved for me to do it.

It's awful, you think you're doing the right thing for your dogs by getting them vaccinated to protect them from nasties and now this. Un-freaking-believable.

I have a large order (600 tabs! they were on sale!) of niacidamine arriving on Monday, in the mean time I was finally able to track a bottle down here locally after calling six different places who might have it. So he's on that now, too smile We should have everything he needs for treating him now smile including meloxicam for his pain. His tummy can't take tramadol.

Nail #8 and #9 are now gone frown

Thank you again for your encouraging words *everyone!* It's always good to come "home" when the ~s~ hits the fan. Everyone here always helps get me through the bad times.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/20/13 05:41 AM

From Natalie's link: http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf
Quote:
Infectious core vaccines are not only highly effective, they also provide the longest DOI [duration of immunity], extending from 5 yr up to the life of the dog.. >=3 yr interval is currently recommended for revaccinating adult dogs with infectious viral core vaccines.

....

The >=3 yr recommendation for core vaccines is made on the basis of minimum DOI studies over the past 30 yr for canine vaccines. These studies were done by all of the major vaccine companies, as well as by independent researchers.


This means that the recommendation by the experts is that revaccination should not be more frequent than 3 years, and typically a vaccine will last from 5 years to the life of the dog. Note that this is a conservative document, meant to cover all dogs.

Furthermore, recent work by Schultz (link is in the vax sticky somewhere, let me know if you want me to find it) has shown that 98% of *puppies* vaccinated between 14-16 weeks will provide long term immunity, probably for life. So an adult that has been vaccinated (whose immune system is more mature than a puppy), particularly one that has been annually vaccinated, should be protected for life and never need another vaccination. This is for the core vaccines (parvo, distemper, hep, adenovirus), not the bacterial vaccines, which really aren't recommended by many anyway.

Rabies of course is a separate issue because of the legalities.

Do not bother titering your dog for parvo or distemper, they should be protected for life by now. You can titer through Dodds if you want to, but it's not necessary. Every shot except rabies, you have the right to say no to.

This will be a test for your vet. I am fairly forgiving about vets not have the same philosophy as I do, but the vaccination issue is where I draw the line, so I hope that your vet passes the test.

He must feel pretty miserable without those nails, but I am so hoping that he responds quickly. I would be careful about things that "boost" the immune system - you want to balance and support it, rather than boost certain parts of it (colostrum, mushrooms, many anti-cancer things frown ). Most antioxidants are good.

Give him an extra snuggle for me!
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/20/13 08:52 AM

Hi Lisa, your snuggle has been passed along and ya got a big sloppy GSD chin slurp in return, LOL!

Yeah, he's pretty darn quiet - rephrase = for Riley he's REALLY quiet so I know he is in pain.

I emailed my vet a little while ago -- short version of the email = NO MORE VACCINES EVER for either of them and asked her to put this in both their charts in BIG BOLD letters. I included Natalie's pdf link and this one:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/purdue-vaccination-studies/

WI requires rabies every 3 years but there is now a medical waiver law that was passed smile This document has all the states so others here can look up their individual state's laws if they want:

Rabies Laws

He's getting doxie & niacidamide, salmon oil & vit e, meloxicam for pain plus his thyroid meds.

The one vaccine I might have to have titered is the rabies to back me up with city hall. The rest I won't bother with. I don't know yet what they'll require to exempt them from rabies.

I will go look for Schultz in your links.

Thanks!
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 07/20/13 02:37 PM

Hey Deb. So sorry to hear about Riley. This disease is so nasty & cruel. The healing is slow like watching paint dry or watching nails grow. *But* Tebo is now running & being his old devious self again! So there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
The SLO group is full of Beardies, greyounds, GSD...but then you see small dogs too poodle, schnauzer. Some vaccinated some not. Some raw fed some not. It kind of seems so odd and random.
I don't give Tebo or any of my dogs vaccinations, except 3yr Rabies. Now he'll be due next yr & I need to ask my vet I think she'll be accepting of skipping the Rabies for him.
Give poor Riley a good hug.

Sent you a PM
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/20/13 06:08 PM

Hi Melanie, re-read Lisa's post - he shouldn't be vaccinated again, ever. I'm going to be working towards getting an exemption for rabies, too.

Lisa - my vet passed the test. She's fine w/no vaccines EXCEPT she won't give him an exception from rabies because that's fatal to humans is what she told me. We'll be titering!

Anyone know the average lifespan of a rabie's vaccine that titers would show he doesn't need it?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/20/13 07:01 PM

Does anyone know if it would be feasible to take him to the vet and have him put under to remove the nails that have not fallen off yet? Hubby just thought it would be less painful for him that way.
Posted By: Furonthefloor

Re: Broken Nail - 07/20/13 10:50 PM

Thanks I saw her post. I don't plan to give him Rabies, just hoping my vet agrees too. I think she will. I just meant previously I only gave the Rabies not the other vaccinations.

I don't know what shape Riley's feet are presently in. I took Tebo in several times for my vet to see his nails & just keep an eye on his progression. Plus there were techs/vet students that wanted to see it (guess it's not that common around here anyway)She was good to us & didn't charge us after our initial visit.

A couple times she was able to get a lifted, but hanging on nail off. I tried a few times, but I couldn't seem to get the knack of getting that nail off quick & without causing pain. Also it looks so painful it really just made me cringe. You know how those lifted up ones pinch?

Anyway, I just wanted to say I read some posts on Yahoo where others had taken their dog in to have them put out & the nails cut back. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but some who said they did it seemed glad they did. Some insisted they had no choice. I guess some dogs really bleed. Tebo bled a bit, but nothing much. Maybe it depends on the rate of nail loss? I'm curious if your vet suggests it.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/21/13 07:51 PM

FotF, I am so glad that Tebo is doing so well! This is very encouraging smile

About the rabies titering. Unless you check with animal control and they say different, they do not accept titers, but they will accept a letter from a vet. I found that Jazz having an acceptable rabies titer just made it easy for the vet to say, okay, she doesn't need that and I'm more willing to write the letter. If the vet is using the "fatal to humans" excuse while the dog has an acceptable rabies titer, that would be highly illogical. However, your county may require that your dog stay at home and never go anywhere if they get a waiver. You need to call them and ask what the policy is, and not go by something posted online, unless it's directly posted by your own animal control.

Deb, I'm glad that your vet passed the test on the regular vaccines, that's great!!
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/22/13 05:14 PM

Today's update ... he had a rough Wed thru Sat. Joe took off one nail that was just hanging by a thread and after that he started walking better smile not normal but better.

This morn he was still walking as well as yesterday so I took him on a walk around one block only just to help hopefully get some of the cabin fever out of him. He did good smile He really wanted out of the house! I let him set the pace and the direction, he knows which way gets him home and he'll tell me if he wants to go home.

After breakfast and his morning rounds of meds, 2-3 hours later we went for a bit longer walk, total maybe 3 blocks and he did well again except we got charged by a pit bull ... ugh. I heard the PB barking in the apartment so we walked by. As we turned the corner on the far end of the bldg I heard the owner holler which turned out to be hollering for her dog to come back. I turn around and boom, there he is heading towards us. He/she stopped short and stood there (phew!) and of course Riley started going off on him so I had to get him under control with our "keep walking" routine. The other dog started to step towards us in a submissive manner (I think he was only about a year or so old) so I settled *myself* down and didn't spray him because you could tell at that point he was submissive and we kept walking. I don't take chances on doggie meets with Riley, you never know how he'll react and he's leashed the other dog was loose. Not a good combination.

Anyway, now that we're home you can tell he's hurting and I'm sure it's because of that "run in" with the other dog and he got all bent outa shape about it. GRRRR!

That's enough activity for the day for him. Now he's freaking holding up one or the other front paw occasionally frown so all that riled-up-Riley stuff with the other dog took it's toll. These people must be new, there never was a dog there before and I intentionally took a route where there should have been no dogs so this wouldn't happen.

Just did an Epsom salt soak on his front foot which he's holding up a lot now. He's not fond of it but I figure 5 min in it is better than no minutes in it. Got another nail lifted.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 07/22/13 05:45 PM

Lisa: That's what I'm hoping, that a "successful" titer will be enough for her to write a letter. If not, I guess I'll be looking for another vet. I will definitely be checking with the city directly. I don't plan on assuming anything, our laws and ordinances may be very different from anything I read.
Posted By: SLEACHY

Re: Broken Nail - 07/23/13 01:32 PM

This looks incredibly painful. I am so sorry that Tebo and Riley are going through it. teary
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 07/24/13 03:59 AM

I'm sorry that this is such a challenge. Darn run-ins with dogs. Do the Epsom salts help? I would think that they would. I would use a warm Epsom salt compress on Max's fistulas.

I don't remember, are you giving probiotics?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/07/13 08:25 AM

Back again, yes the warm water Epsom salts seems to sooth him. Currently he's lost almost all nails including the dews. I think he's got 3 to go. We've been able to get out for some walks on his good days. I've steered clear of our special field because the grass is pretty long there and I don't want wandering in it to force any nails off.

Had to give up on the turkey hearts for our "Nature's Pill Pockets" ... he figured out there were pills in them and refuses to eat them even if there are no pills in them frown I hate poking pills down their throats so I'm now hiding pills in spoonfuls of canned pumpkin (non-sugar variety). For several days he refused his meals altogether. On those days I would give him 1/2 can canned soups, the kinds with NO onions of any kind in them and cooked chicken. Because most have onion, selection is limited but he doesn't seem to mind and at least then he would eat. The past few days he's back to eating normally. I think the meloxicam messes with his tummy, always had a touchy tummy before we went to raw.

Still haven't been to the groomer frown because I don't want him to be forced to stand for too long - afraid it would be too painful for him. He still seems to prefer laying down most of the time.

The vet gave us a month's worth of the doxie and meloxicam and I'm hoping that will be all he needs. I don't give the meloxicam unless he seems like he's in pain. We haven't had any bloody messes for some time now.

No probiotics. Per the vet, he can have his favorite yogurt occasionally so we do that a few times a week.

SLEACHY: Thank you smile
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/07/13 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: FurKids

No probiotics. Per the vet, he can have his favorite yogurt occasionally so we do that a few times a week.

This makes absolutely no sense. What was the reasoning that the vet gave?

Autoimmune stuff is tricky. You will need to be on the protocol for porbably awhile at least. Long enough to know that he's stable, then another amount of time after there are no symptoms (I think the PF list uses 3-4 weeks), and then you have to slowly taper because if you stop the meds suddenly, usually the immune system rebounds with a flair.

I am not sure that your vet is up to this?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/11/13 04:06 PM

Oh, I'm sorry I didn't mean to confuse things. She didn't say no probiotics, I meant I didn't have any. He can have them and he can have his occasional yogurt mixed with cottage cheese. I'm sorry I got that all muddled up. Thanks for telling me about tapering, she may discuss this when we go back but so far it hasn't been brought up.

This is just taking soooooo long to run it's course. He's been having some really tough days more tough ones than good ones frown He's started refusing to eat his regular meals awhile back and because he has to have his meds with food we've been improvising with things like cooked chicken, chicken soup and pumpkin. He used to love liversausage now won't touch it. I think he's afraid everything he eats is going to have meds in it.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/11/13 04:29 PM

Okay, that makes more sense about the probiotics. I can go back and see what you meant now - words, confusing!

What all are you giving and what dosages?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/11/13 04:30 PM

Oh, and any other supplements?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/21/13 05:16 AM

Sorry to be slow responding.

He gets:

2 100mg Doxy 2x a day
1 500mg Niacinamide 2x a day
1 1000mg salmon oil cap 2x a day
1 400ui vit e 2x a day
1 probiotic in the morn
4 Hyland's Hypericum Perf. 30X every 4-6hrs (I found this helps with the licking - when on this the licking of his nails is *considerably* less) it's for nerve pain

Plus his Dasuquin/MSN

Thanks for the reminder on the probiotics. Since I put him on them he's back to eating decently where prior to that he'd pretty much quit eating. I have no doubt the meds upset his tummy and the pro's solved that smile

His front left foot is the target at this point. Nail loss has slowed, no more blood baths in probably a month smile there doesn't seem to be any nail lifting but the remaining nails are various stages of being bi-colored instead of black.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/21/13 05:37 PM

Doxy can make their stomach pretty upset. I'm glad the probiotic is helping.

That list all looks good, aand no red flags, good!

I would have never thought about the hypericum, but it makes perfect sense - so glad that it I helping!!!

I hope that the meds have slowed things, and it's not just slowing while the nails are growing back. What a relief though to find a way to have him stop licking from pain, and alo no more bloodbaths. I will keep the good thoughts for your boy!
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/21/13 06:10 PM

I've read in a lot of places that some dogs are on three doses on Niacinamide per day and maybe the antib's too, but don't remember right now if antib's 3x is correct. But my vet said 2x a day and I don't want to OD him on anything so that's what I'm sticking with. She got the info straight from the dermatology dept at U.W. Vet Teaching Hospital in Madison, WI so I would think they know what they're talking about. They knew what this was immediately without even seeing him just by the symptoms and the pics I'd sent.

Yup, the hypericum seems to really help a LOT smile

I'm soooooo tempted to clip those long nails but I don't dare. Not that he'd let me without knocking him out first, LOL!

Thanks for your good thoughts, I'll take all I can get. I would love to see some nail grow-back ... sigh ....
Posted By: middleofnowhere

Re: Broken Nail - 08/21/13 11:13 PM

Old Geezer here (dog not me!) is on antibiotics and niacinamide and vitamins - wanted the niacinamide 3 x a day but when I was working 2 x was what worked for us/me. He gets 750 N twice a day, the vitamin in the morning & two antibiotic pills twice a day. I think dosing goes by weight.

We did start out at the lower dose but then upped it to get better results
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/25/13 05:25 PM

Ok, so now what have you all that are dealing with SLO with your dogs had for an experience after your dog's been on the meds routine for awhile?

The past 3 days have been good ones for Riley smile He's even done just a *tiny bit* of play with his tennis ball smile and he seems a little bit more like himself. He's still got nails that haven't fallen off. Haven't had a nail lift in some time. They say it's likely a dog will lose all nails but he hasn't and he *seems* to be improving smile The past 3 days he hasn't seemed like he was in pain or if he is he's not showing it at all. Of course, this could be the calm before the next storm, too frown

My vet has mentioned him possibly needing to be on antib's for the rest of his life but I can't see that. Don't antib's lose their effectiveness over time like they do for humans? She wants to see nail growth before she changes his meds routine.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/25/13 05:26 PM

Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
Old Geezer here (dog not me!) is on antibiotics and niacinamide and vitamins - wanted the niacinamide 3 x a day but when I was working 2 x was what worked for us/me. He gets 750 N twice a day, the vitamin in the morning & two antibiotic pills twice a day. I think dosing goes by weight.

We did start out at the lower dose but then upped it to get better results


What does he weigh?
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/25/13 05:42 PM

I agree with your vet. This is a lifelong disease, and will require lifelong management. With some luck you may be able to wean off the abx, but it may never happen.

You are not using the abx to kill disease, but using it's anti-inflammatory action to control the immune system reaction.

I would not change the abx for at least 3 months. The PF list says continue immune suppressants for a month longer than you see symptoms before trying to wean off of them, and that's about right. Then you are going to decrease the amount very very slowly. You will not be able to just stop them. You decrease one pill at a time, and probably wait at least 3 weeks, probably 4 at least (!) before even trying to decrease aanother. The problem with the nails is that they may be slow to show what's going on.

One probelm is if you wean too soon or too fast, and there is a flair, often restarting the doxy can make it less able to control the disease process than the first time it was used.

This is a very wicked disease, so steps have to be slow and deliberate hugging
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/25/13 05:47 PM

Let me add, jazz here is on abx to try to reduce the inflammation in her gut that I can't seem to get at (she has IBD). It was the internal medicine vet that said that it's going to take 2-3 months minimum for the body's internal response to simmer down, so this is not out of the norm, the timeframe that the PF (fistula) list uses.

Eta: It is better to go too slow than too fast with this stuff.
Posted By: arycrest

Re: Broken Nail - 08/25/13 07:23 PM

Not sure how I missed this thread, I'm so sorry you're going thru this awful disease.

This is a long thread and I may have missed some of it ... if this has already been answered I apologize!!!

Has your vet considered using Prednisone or Azathioprine in the treatment protocol? I realize that there are different "types" of disorders that fall under the "Lupus umbrella" and honestly don't know about most of them.

However, after Ringer was diagnosed with Lupus Mediated Polyarthritis, they shut down his immune system with a mega dose of Pred, then slowly weaned him off. It worked but when he had a relapse a month or two later, they put him on a course of Azathioprine which put him into remission for the rest of his life (he was 3-1/2 when they finally made the diagnose and under 4 when he went into the final remission and he lived to a month before his 13th birthday without further problems).

FWIW ... they originally thought he had a neurological problem and the vet who diagnosed him and treated him was Andy Hopkins at North Florida Neurology up in Orange Park, FL.

BEST WISHES!!!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/25/13 08:13 PM

In general, I hate that stuff Gayle, but I know it has it's place and you can't argue with some of the results when it's used appropriately.

The one thing that I think might be encouraging here is that there was a trigger event, and maybe getting that quelled, might not make this so permanent crossedfingers
Posted By: middleofnowhere

Re: Broken Nail - 08/26/13 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: FurKids
Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
Old Geezer here (dog not me!) is on antibiotics and niacinamide and vitamins - wanted the niacinamide 3 x a day but when I was working 2 x was what worked for us/me. He gets 750 N twice a day, the vitamin in the morning & two antibiotic pills twice a day. I think dosing goes by weight.

We did start out at the lower dose but then upped it to get better results


What does he weigh?


Sorry to have been so slow getting back to you - somewhere between 70-80 lbs - the vet had the scientific name for his nail issue but what I remember is the term "gnarrly nails."

It does look like "forever" on this and abx is getting incredibly expensive.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 08/26/13 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
It does look like "forever" on this and abx is getting incredibly expensive.

Middle, have you tried the Walgreen's "card" that you buy annually? In some places it has *dramatically* lowered the cost to something reasonable.

One tick list member had a Walgreen's that was charging a very high price still, while the one down the street wasn't (with the card, which is about $15 a year), so it does pay to shop around.

Another person on a different list went through a compounding pharmacy and paid $60 (incl. shipping) for 100 100mg tablets (chicken flavored and chewable): http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/ Still about double of what you would have paid before, but a lot cheaper than what some are charging for.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 03:46 AM

I got the Walgreens card, they call it a "W" card. Doxy went from $600 to $40 for a month's supply. My vet will just script it over to Walgreens instead of dispensing it through her clinic where it would be very expensive as well. She's the one who put me onto the W card after she called and spoke to them.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: arycrest
Has your vet considered using Prednisone or Azathioprine in the treatment protocol? I realize that there are different "types" of disorders that fall under the "Lupus umbrella" and honestly don't know about most of them. BEST WISHES!!!


She has not mentioned them. Due to the potential side effects of steroids, I would balk and have to do more research unless someone could show me *significant value* to their use that overshadowed the possible problems and I could research to the point of feeling comfortable using them before I would give it to him. Some of the info I read mentioned it but also talked about it not being the best idea because of the potential side effects so to my best understanding it's not a recommended treatment. Thanks for your best wishes smile
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
The one thing that I think might be encouraging here is that there was a trigger event, and maybe getting that quelled, might not make this so permanent crossedfingers


No more vaccines thus no more SLO is my biggest hope for this!
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 04:52 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Let me add, jazz here is on abx to try to reduce the inflammation in her gut that I can't seem to get at (she has IBD).


Oh Lisa, I'm sorry to hear this frown I hope she gets to feeling better soon!
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 05:11 AM

I forgot to ask, because I know now that GSD's are on the top of the list for getting this ugly disease, we started giving Nissa one 1,000mg salmon oil cap and one 400ui vit e cap every day hopefully to help her not get this. Is this considered a high dose for her?

We used to have what we called "Sardine Sunday" whereby they got about 4oz of sardines as part of their breakfast but discontinued this because of Riley's SLO because I don't want to OD them on the fishy stuff. Looking for your thoughts on this?
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 05:39 AM

I have two more questions:

#1: Riley needs a bath badly. He's got that doggy smell and I hate that. I've *never* let him go this long w/o a bath and it's driving me insane but I have to put his feet before his bath right now and just live with the oooooh-de-dog aroma. However, I'm concerned that standing in the tub with water around his feet will soften the remaining nails and maybe cause what seems like progress to go backwards. I'll put up with the doggy smell if I have to. What's your input on bathing him at this point?

#2: What about clipping the remaining nails? I honestly don't think he'll let us near his feet for grooming and I sure don't want to cause stress on the nails but they are getting a bit long and we all know the what that can do to a dog. This seems like a danged if you do danged if you don't situation and I don't know which side of the dang to error on!
Posted By: arycrest

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 12:42 PM

Originally Posted By: FurKids
I have two more questions:

#1: Riley needs a bath badly. He's got that doggy smell and I hate that. I've *never* let him go this long w/o a bath and it's driving me insane but I have to put his feet before his bath right now and just live with the oooooh-de-dog aroma. However, I'm concerned that standing in the tub with water around his feet will soften the remaining nails and maybe cause what seems like progress to go backwards. I'll put up with the doggy smell if I have to. What's your input on bathing him at this point?
I've never used one so don't know how well they work, but could you use one of those dry/waterless shampoos made for dogs? gsdsit
Posted By: MSD

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 01:13 PM

Hi FurKids, not sure if this c/would help w/?#1, but if you made a Betadine (aka povidone-iodine) solution, diluted to ice tea color and wipe him down with a washcloth, like a sponge bath, not standing in water, could that work? We have done that many times here. I know your pup doesnít need to be disinfected, but at least this way you donít have to rinse or anything, just wipe. ???
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 01:45 PM

Originally Posted By: arycrest
I've never used one so don't know how well they work, but could you use one of those dry/waterless shampoos made for dogs? gsdsit


Tried that kinda stuff on my own hair many years ago and it left my hair feeling really gooey creepy and powdery feeling and looking. Maybe they've improved that kind of thing over the years.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: MSD
Hi FurKids, not sure if this c/would help w/?#1, but if you made a Betadine (aka povidone-iodine) solution, diluted to ice tea color and wipe him down with a washcloth, like a sponge bath, not standing in water, could that work? We have done that many times here. I know your pup doesnít need to be disinfected, but at least this way you donít have to rinse or anything, just wipe. ???


Hmmm, never heard of this combination. Is it designed to be a disinfectant or a dog wash solution?
Posted By: Natalie559

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: FurKids
we started giving Nissa one 1,000mg salmon oil cap and one 400ui vit e cap every day hopefully to help her not get this. Is this considered a high dose for her?

We used to have what we called "Sardine Sunday" whereby they got about 4oz of sardines as part of their breakfast but discontinued this because of Riley's SLO because I don't want to OD them on the fishy stuff. Looking for your thoughts on this?


1000mg salmon oil is a low dose- the vit e is just right. Penny gets extra salmon oil for her flea allergy - she gets 4 1000mg pills a day- 2 in am and 2 in pm along with 1 400 iu vit e. You could actually go higher on the oil, but for us the cost gets to be too much. Important to look at the epa and dha provided b/c that's the good stuff and all 1000mg are not created equally!

What is your concern about ODing the fish stuff and then maybe I can tell you if 4oz is too much? Were you splitting a 4oz tin between the dogs?
Posted By: MSD

Re: Broken Nail - 08/27/13 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: FurKids
Originally Posted By: MSD
Hi FurKids, not sure if this c/would help w/?#1, but if you made a Betadine (aka povidone-iodine) solution, diluted to ice tea color and wipe him down with a washcloth, like a sponge bath, not standing in water, could that work? We have done that many times here. I know your pup doesnít need to be disinfected, but at least this way you donít have to rinse or anything, just wipe. ???


Hmmm, never heard of this combination. Is it designed to be a disinfectant or a dog wash solution?


Hi FurKidsó Iím not sure IF itís ONLY designed for disinfecting, thatís why I said I didnít know if it c/would help, but wanted to throw it in there as an option for you. I donít think it would hurt to try for your pup to just wipe him down with it, and it's easy enough to do and that way you wouldnít have to worry about the full-blown bath, for now anyway, you know what I mean? We use for our allergy boy who gets a yeasty odor (sometimes) and also as a foot soak.

I donít really know how to articulate how to do it, so Iíve just posted the link to the video, which is how we basically do it (the 1st video), she does say disinfecting.

If you go to 2.00 on the video, she will show how to use/mix it.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/hea...-infection.aspx

another demonstration saying she uses it as a foot soak. This says it's a proactive approach, vs. just treating "something" that has already happened
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/10/25/dog-foot-bath.aspx

Well, Iím sorry if Iíve just confused things or if Iím heading in the wrong direction, but like I said, just wanted to throw it out there as a possibility for you to try in lieu of a regular bath (for now). smile Take care,
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 09/08/13 04:53 PM

Riley had about 3 good weeks, no broken or lifted nails, we took our walks and I was really starting to see him feel better smile Then this morning some idiot let their dog wander and it wound up in our yard on the other side of the fence. Well, you can prolly guess what happened. Riley broke a nail going off at the dog on the other side of the fence. I realize it's not from the SLO but it's just so frustrating because now he's limping again and in pain. We won't be able to do our walks or go to the field for another prolly 2 weeks or until that nail falls off and give it a couple days after that for the quick to get un-red. GRRRRR!

I found out that all my city will require is a letter from my vet to get him exempted from rabies shots smile I already know she doesn't agree with me, I will bring up doing a titer. If she won't do the letter even after a good titer, then I find a new vet. I'll be danged if I'm going to intentionally do this to him again. I'm also gonna have Nissa titered cuz I don't intend to put her in a position to get this.
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 09/08/13 05:57 PM

That is so incredibly frustration about the other dog. I remember when other dogs would mess with Max and mess up something that sidelined him for awhile - so not fair.

Great news about the waiver letter for the rabies. Titers will help you if there is ever a legal problem, but I never titered Indy. I did titer Jazz, but I think that her internal medicine specialist would have given her the letter of exemption anyway. With Indy, I didn't titered because, if it came back low, vaccinating her was still not an option and I didn't want to give anyone the idea that she should have that vaccine. Getting Nissa, who is healthy, exempted for rabies, may be trickier, as I think these are medical exemptions. Certainly she needs no other shots.
Posted By: FurKids

Re: Broken Nail - 09/08/13 06:12 PM

Doesn't the fact that Nissa has hypothyroidism count towards only vaccinating healthy dogs?

I didn't think of the titer thing like that, I like your take on it thanks for the idea!
Posted By: MaxaLisa

Re: Broken Nail - 09/08/13 06:20 PM

I think that most don't count hypothyroidism as a serious enough issue to not get the rabies vaccine, but it's worth a try.

Jazz is on a "we'll vaccinate her when she's healthier" schedule, but her titers was "excellent", so we're in no rush. As long as I can get a letter each year, we're good for daycare. I am in no hurry, and don't want to revax, but I do have bats and critters capable of carrying rabies near the house, so I definitely want her protected if those titers wane (though I'm sure she still will have some memory cell protection - difficult decisions!)
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