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Let's chat about feeding Grain free food #350195
02/13/19 05:31 PM
02/13/19 05:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,772
Eastern Oregon
Z
Zisso Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Zisso  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Z

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,772
Eastern Oregon
There is a large 'thing' going on about feeding grain free to our pets lately, and I am curious about your thoughts on the subject.

Many articles are coming out saying it is not as beneficial to feed grain free as we all have thought. I have thought for a long time that our GSD's are much like a wild wolf and depend significantly on the meat they harvest after a successful hunt ie: deer, elk, rabbit, etc, however, what else do they eat in the wild, in between when there is no food source like wildlife? We all know our dogs to eat grass when their tummy's are upset, so do they eat other plant species too?

Here is an article that was just shared on B by a friend of mine on the topic.

https://slate.com/technology/2019/0...8tOa_GHuvQlVGhsvqUTB_YnIyKUlrYkeEaNbJrcI


Bev~mom to:
Zisso-DOB 09/16/07

R.I.P. Kiki, Nadia, Pepe, and all my other loves from years gone by.
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350199
02/14/19 02:47 AM
02/14/19 02:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,199
Colorado
Kris Offline
Pooh-Bah
Kris  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,199
Colorado
I just had this conversation with my vet today. He says it's not the grain free as much as legumes in the grain free. He does not feel that there is enough information at this point to state, without doubt, that grain free foods are causing DCM. This started with two goldens having heart issues (this can be genetic in goldens) and then UC Davis claims that they started seeing a pattern of DCM in dogs that were fed grain free. They are recommending mediocre foods as replacements - Purina Pro Plan is one. Guess who is funding the study?? Purina. My vet is involved in a large group across the U.S. that communicates on-line. He said there are nutritionists, cardiologists, etc. and they aren't even talking about it at this point. He said if it made me feel better, to get a grain free without legumes (peas, green beans, etc.). I feed NutiSource - Chicken & Pea - so will probably switch to their Chicken & Rice formula. My dogs do great on this food, so I'm not going to make any major changes at this point.


Kris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Samson, GSD, 10/13/07
Annabel, Keeshond, 4/21/11
Petie, Toy Poodle, 5/5/07
Kitties: Meezer, Bob, Mia and Dewey
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350200
02/14/19 03:06 PM
02/14/19 03:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,742
Albuquerque, NM
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
Kayos  Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,742
Albuquerque, NM
No changes for me either. Not enough evidence. Havoc has always had issues with grains and at 11 years and 8 months, I'm not switching. Mayhem will be 7 in April and I have no plans to switch her either.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350202
02/14/19 05:09 PM
02/14/19 05:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,772
Eastern Oregon
Z
Zisso Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Zisso  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Z

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,772
Eastern Oregon
Thank you ladies for giving your input!

Zisso has always had tummy issues from day one after taking him off of Purina and I found that Taste of the Wild, after several years, proved to be too rich, so I switched him to Earthborn and he has done fine. As of late, I have been wadding warm water to inspire him to eat and it has worked wonders. He seems to like the food softer and with his teeth being worn down from feeding things like deer legs (didn't know then not to give those) and Himalayan chews that were rock hard, his K9's broke.

Gypsy is on Blue Buffalo Freedom which is grain free, but has peas, as does Earthborn.

I am thinking of switching Gypsy to BB with brown rice and chicken, yet I just found a store that is selling the Freedom label for like $20 cheaper! At least if she can tolerate chicken, I will have a larger selection than I have for Z all these years. He does best on venison and bison.

Just wanting to do what is best for my furbabies.


Bev~mom to:
Zisso-DOB 09/16/07

R.I.P. Kiki, Nadia, Pepe, and all my other loves from years gone by.
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350218
02/18/19 05:42 PM
02/18/19 05:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,742
Albuquerque, NM
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
Kayos  Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,742
Albuquerque, NM
I think when Havoc is gone I will switch Mayhem to a different food. She has no issue with grain, I just hate feeding separate foods. I had fed Earthborn Holistic for years but I have switched to Kirtland food. Much less expensive and my budget has been very tight of late. Both dogs are doing well on Kirtland Natural Domain.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350231
02/19/19 02:37 AM
02/19/19 02:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,923
M
middleofnowhere Offline
Carpal Tunnel
middleofnowhere  Offline
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M

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,923
This afternoon I read an article (OK skimmed it) on taurine & legumes etc in dog food. It explained the need for the taurine in dog food, what the heart health issue was, which breeds were most affected. Interesting but I haven't retained enough particulars to be of any use in this discussion. Anyway, magazine was Dogster.

(And no I didn't notice which issue but it must have been a couple of months back...--- Now aren't I just useful as all get out?)

Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350243
02/21/19 03:44 AM
02/21/19 03:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,374
SF Bay Area
Cassidy's Mom Offline
Veteran
Cassidy's Mom  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,374
SF Bay Area
I am very concerned about this issue. There's a Facebook group for diet related DCM, and the firsthand stories of people losing young dogs suddenly - 3, 4, 5 years old, are heartbreaking. And the stories of people whose dogs are currently being treated for DCM and hoping that they caught it in time and can reverse the damage. Many have not and the guilt they must feel for doing what they thought was in the best interest of their dogs is awful to read about, as is seeing all the photos of beautiful dogs lost too young. frown

This is not just goldens, and it's not just a few dogs. This group, which is moderated by several veterinarians including some involved in the research, are compiling data on breed, age, taurine and echo results, as well as what the dogs have been eating. So far the charts include over 1200 dogs. That's just people who have had testing done, and have reported the data. As this is fairly new information, many dogs have probably died before anyone knew it was an issue. There are some GSDs, although a fairly small percentage compared to some other breeds. It's very eye opening. Obviously, something changed recently in the pet food industry to cause this to happen to breeds that are not known to have genetic DCM like Dobermans.

I'm not ready to switch to Purina, so I've compromised. Cava eats Farmina Ancient Grains, which has no legumes or potatoes. It does not meet the WSAVA guidelines, as they suggest, but so far no dogs eating it have been implicated in diet related DCM either. Annamaet seems safe so far too. Keefer is almost 13-1/3 and since he's mostly incontinent our main concern is a food he likes and that he has firm stools on since more often than not he poops in his crate, the house, or the garage. He's on an Earthborn Holistics food that's chock full of peas, but his stool is great and he loves it. He doesn't have a lot of time left, so we're not too worried about him developing DCM. If he does, so be it.

This is not something to be dismissed.


Cava 1/6/18

Keefer 8/25/05

Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18
Flyball: ONYX, TF-III

Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08
Forever would have been too short

Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Cassidy's Mom] #350246
02/21/19 10:45 PM
02/21/19 10:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,133
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Shilohsmom Offline
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Shilohsmom  Offline
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I guess I should chime in here. I tend to agree with Cassidy's Mom. Now I've had my last three dogs, Shiloh and Shoshi both lived to 13 1/2 years. Eli 12 years 3 months. They started out on Merrick for years, then we went to Merrick Grain Free and TOTW Grain Free. Each of these pups lead a long and healthy diet on Grain Free.

However once I started reading about DCM and the little bit of information we had I decided to switch my crew to Victors Select Hi Pro. The first ingredients are Chicken Meal, Beef Meal, Whole Grain Millet, Blood Meal, Chicken Fat, Fish Meal and Pork Meal.

No peas, no potatoes, none of the stuff in question. Am I being paranoid? Perhaps, but I'm not taking any chances with my pups.

I've done some reading on one of the Facebook groups about this. I'm thinking its a small number but then again how many cases go unidentified?


Rosa

Proud Mom to Kody and Sasha
and never to be forgotten, Shiloh, Shoshi and Eli
Every dog deserves to have a human that thinks its the greatest dog that ever lived!
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350247
02/22/19 03:13 AM
02/22/19 03:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,374
SF Bay Area
Cassidy's Mom Offline
Veteran
Cassidy's Mom  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,374
SF Bay Area
Exactly, Rosa. And there have been many formula changes too, I don't recall there being so many foods with peas prominently listed in the passt. Sometimes the companies split the ingredients, so you have peas, pea protein, etc, listed as separate ingredients. But when you add them all together the percentage of legumes can be as high at 40% of the total ingredients!


Cava 1/6/18

Keefer 8/25/05

Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18
Flyball: ONYX, TF-III

Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08
Forever would have been too short

Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Cassidy's Mom] #350254
02/23/19 08:24 PM
02/23/19 08:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2
All over the west coast
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HappyCamperDog Offline
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HappyCamperDog  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2
All over the west coast
Agree completely with Cassidy’s Mom & Rosa. I have a friend into Gordon Setters and they’ve been hit too.

I was inadvertently fortunate. My boy has a serious pea allergy, so I’ve never allowed any legume based food in my house. He’s eaten home-cooked for years and the others have eaten lamb & rice California Natural and now Tuscan Natural.

I never understood why peas/garbanzo beans were preferable to brown rice and saw no reason to change even if I could. It seemed like a big marketing push to move us to accept much cheaper proteins, often at higher prices because of the “grain free” label. My foods weren’t much more expensive than most of the grain fee foods anyhow.

If cost is a concern, I’d go back to grain-heavy foods. My vet dermatologist says most dogs are allergic to meat proteins much more than grain proteins anyhow.



Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: Zisso] #350293
03/03/19 04:47 AM
03/03/19 04:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,585
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Posts: 19,585
Northern CA
I think there is a thread with some links on the forum somewhere, from when this first arose. I've seen a few updates on FB from people I respect, but I don't think that thread on here has been updated.

I definitely agree that this is a super important issue.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Let's chat about feeding Grain free food [Re: HappyCamperDog] #350294
03/03/19 04:49 AM
03/03/19 04:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,585
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,585
Northern CA
Originally Posted by HappyCamperDog
.....My vet dermatologist says most dogs are allergic to meat proteins much more than grain proteins anyhow.

I would probably argue higher allergens to meat proteins, but from observations on the forums, higher intolerances/food sensitivities to grains. I've never had a dog that could tolerate grains. (But I've only had three dogs.)

ETA: Hi Lori, good to see you wink

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 03/03/19 05:13 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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