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New AKC Obedience Regs? #344681
07/10/17 04:17 PM
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Just heard about some changes coming for Novice and Open group exercises. Guess there has been some problems with dogs in these exercises so AKC convened a big meeting to come up with changes so strange dogs won't have to be left off leash only 4' from each other.

Anyone familiar with this issue? I saw just one reference to it on a Facebook page a day or so ago.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344682
07/10/17 08:34 PM
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I have heard about possible changes, but nothing official. Funny, this was rarely a problem back in the day when corrections were used to proof exercises. I never liked the out of site sits/downs but never worried about doing the 1 minute sit/down in novice.


Lisa Clark
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Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: lhczth] #344683
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Found the notice -- not details but a good official explanation:

http://www.akc.org/events/obedience/news-updates/

Interesting comment about different approaches to training, I thought. But not a word from me about that - too much flak!

Anyway take a peek you OB trainers/showers and see what you think.

Supposed to be a short time till new regs are in the trials.

Think AKC thought too many people (esp those with smaller dogs!) were afraid for their dogs safety in the sits and stays! I never was but didn't want my dog to get in a fight either with some under trained dog!

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344684
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I think out of sight stays were really impressive (when the dogs cooperated!).

Shows some training and also some self confidence of the dogs!

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344690
07/11/17 10:09 PM
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When you show a big breed and a breed that people are often afraid of, especially if you also do SchH or IPO, worrying that another dog will attack your dog is always a problem. The big mean IPO GSD would be the one blamed even if it was the poorly trained fluffy the brat that started it and attacked the big mean IPO GSD first. I never worried until training methods changed and had some issues at matches.


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SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB IPO2 KKL B/HOT (the ugly little sable), Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD and gone, but not forgotten: Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT
Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: lhczth] #344691
07/11/17 10:11 PM
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Actually, removing the sits/downs would be a great way to speed things up. They are such a waste of time.


Lisa Clark
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SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB IPO2 KKL B/HOT (the ugly little sable), Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD and gone, but not forgotten: Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT
Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: lhczth] #344692
07/12/17 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: lhczth
When you show a big breed and a breed that people are often afraid of, especially if you also do SchH or IPO, worrying that another dog will attack your dog is always a problem. The big mean IPO GSD would be the one blamed even if it was the poorly trained fluffy the brat that started it and attacked the big mean IPO GSD first. I never worried until training methods changed and had some issues at matches.


Ain't that the truth! Training methods have certainly changed for a lot of folks! And the excuses seem to have gotten bigger!

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: lhczth] #344693
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Originally Posted By: lhczth
Actually, removing the sits/downs would be a great way to speed things up. They are such a waste of time.


I always thought that the group exercises were well worth it. Took a lot of time and effort to train the dog reliably in many cases but a truly useful exercise, esp. the Open ones out of sight. But I do have to admit that there were a couple times I really wondered if some of the other dogs were going to be a problem, but never had any aggression shown toward my dog in the ring. guess we were lucky as it did happen a couple times in training classes.

But the changes are a'coming no doubt.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344694
07/12/17 11:52 AM
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And in all honesty in real life I doubt I would leave my dog out of site on a stay.


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Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Kayos] #344695
07/12/17 12:44 PM
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I think they served a purpose more when they were developed than now. I never had a problem with them until dogs started breaking and romping around the ring or bothering other dogs. I saw dogs break, stand up, lie down, slowly walk to mom/dad stuff, but that didn't bother me like the other. Now, there are other ways to tests the dogs ability to stay under distraction like the honoring in UKC/IPO.


Lisa Clark
Zu Treuen Händen
SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB IPO2 KKL B/HOT (the ugly little sable), Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD and gone, but not forgotten: Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT
Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Kayos] #344696
07/12/17 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Kayos
And in all honesty in real life I doubt I would leave my dog out of site on a stay.


Would it be the possible action of other dogs, or lack of belief in yours that would you not be willing to leave yours out of sight?

In the trials I have been at or in the "out of sight" would be an exageration mostly as the handlers were not very far away and usually just behind a building or trailer or in a few cases just a tent. The dogs clearly knew where the owners were.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344699
07/12/17 10:36 PM
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Speaking for myself, in real life the fears would be: dog thieves, someone poisoning them, someone physically hurting them, other animals and general liability.

I can't think of any reason it would be worth doing.

I knew something who owned a dog related business. She had great pride leaving her dogs at a stay on the sidewalk outside wherever she got her lunch.

It served no purpose other than her stoking her ego.


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Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: PositiveDog] #344701
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Dog thieves at a dog show when the audience is there and the handlers are out of sight for 3 and 5 minutes. Poison? hurting a dog (Judge and/or stewards?), other animals? Heh! Heh! Seriously? Maybe i must have misunderstood you.


I think a reliable "Stay" is an absolutely required obedience skill! (right up there with a recall) But that is just my personal opinion, of course and any and all are certainly free to disagree.

Interesting topic to hear all the varied opinions!

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344703
07/13/17 06:25 AM
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Leaving the dog (although if I remember right on tie out) is part of the BH in Schutzhund/IPO

There ARE times when you may need to leave your dog

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: middleofnowhere] #344704
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Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
Leaving the dog (although if I remember right on tie out) is part of the BH in Schutzhund/IPO

There ARE times when you may need to leave your dog


Very True!

The last I heard (last year) the dog is left on a long down off leash about 30' away from handler who has to keep his/her back to the dog while the 2nd dog in the field goes thru most of their obedience routine.

Could be up to 15-20 minutes (I counted it a couple of times while we were practicing!) that the dog is in a long down while the other dog does their thing.

A challenge - not quite out of sight but a good ways from the handler.

Was a lot of "Fun" for many handlers in my IPO club to train for. All GSDs with just a few Dobies in the club!

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344706
07/13/17 01:09 PM
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Kayos said "in real life" not at shows. Yes, you did misunderstand and you brought your past condescending self to the post.

I see some things never change. I should have stayed with my first thought and not responded to you.

In REAL LIFE those are reasons I would not leave my dog out of sight in public.


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: PositiveDog] #344707
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CM - That's the long down. In the BH the handler leaves the dog as in goes out of sight until called back by the judge.

There are reasons to train for this and there are reasons to not do it in real life. Depends on the dog, the situation, the handler -- all situations require evaluation.

Once a well meaning person decided to walk my dog when I had left her in a down stay. She got an earful from me.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: PositiveDog] #344708
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Originally Posted By: PositiveDog
Kayos said "in real life" not at shows. Yes, you did misunderstand and you brought your past condescending self to the post.

I see some things never change. I should have stayed with my first thought and not responded to you.

In REAL LIFE those are reasons I would not leave my dog out of sight in public.


Bonnie - Excuse me for missing "Real Life" did I also miss where she said "not at shows"?

Thank you for noticing it - another nice insult again from you as well. = "past condescending self"! I really wish you had stayed with your "first thought" and stayed out of it as well. But "some things never change".

Just out of my curiosity does your stage name "positive dog" reflect your training approach. Please stay cool - no condencession intended - just curious.

As far as training a dog to be able to hold a stay out of sight or not - up to the trainer to decide; with my own dogs and the ones I have seen personally; it is just a matter of training and the dogs nerves.

I agree that some dogs would have difficulty in being able to do this - either in public or in a trial. Nerve/confidence issue for some. If I had a dog with this problem, I certainly would not push them to do it. As far as fearing stealing a dog or hurting a dog or poisoning a dog - WOW! I would not leave my dog in a public spot where I was afraid this would happen - must be a terrible neighborhood for sure. In fact, I would not like to even train my dog at all in such a location. We did a lot of training in a nearby city's streets and never even considered such problems.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: middleofnowhere] #344709
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Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
CM - That's the long down. In the BH the handler leaves the dog as in goes out of sight until called back by the judge.

There are reasons to train for this and there are reasons to not do it in real life. Depends on the dog, the situation, the handler -- all situations require evaluation.

Once a well meaning person decided to walk my dog when I had left her in a down stay. She got an earful from me.


Yes it is the "Long Down" and a fun exercise to train a dog for, esp. when the two dogs are good friends. Great distraction!

Doing it "in real life" whatever that means to anyone - in a public street, in a crowded training class, in a crowded back yard, in a parking lot, vets office or anywhere; to me is a great way to "Proof" the stay behavior.
Of course i would never recommend that anyone do it where their dog could be in danger! That would really be stupid. Like having a dog practice a stay right next to a busy highway!!!!!!

Having someone try to walk your dog - WOW!
I can imagine what I would have said. I don't think he would have went with a stranger however, but from the looks of my old guy I don't think that very many people would have tried to pick up his leash at any rate.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344710
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Bonnie - never mind my question in my post above about your training approach - I saw your website. Thanks.

Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: Codmaster] #344716
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Personally, I don't think training methods are the issue. I know people personally who have put their dog into the ring for group stays knowing full well their dog isn't ready. What's worse is that a dog I'm thinking of specifically is NOT okay with other dogs. And this person has no problem using punishment to train (and we all know I'm a cookie-pusher as far as methodology goes). IMHO, from what I've seen, it's more that people aren't willing to put forth the effort to properly train their dogs and they put them in the ring before they're ready.

With Risa's history, I would not ask her to do group stays. If all the dogs could hold position, she could do it just fine and there wouldn't be an issue. HOWEVER, I know who my dog is. For her, that's an extremely stressful situation even though she has the training. I would not want her to feel afraid in the ring; it's supposed to be her safe place. If another dog broke and came over to her, I would not want her to feel concerned for her safety (which she might). I also would not want to potentially ruin someone else's dog's good time in the ring if Risa were to overreact to a dog approaching her. Therefore, I long ago decided that I will not put her in that situation. Period. If everyone really thought about the potential repercussions of their actions (or their dog's actions), I don't think we'd have some of the issues we do.

That being said, I won't miss them any more than I miss the Honor in rally.


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Re: New AKC Obedience Regs? [Re: DancingCavy] #344762
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Originally Posted By: DancingCavy
Personally, I don't think training methods are the issue. I know people personally who have put their dog into the ring for group stays knowing full well their dog isn't ready. What's worse is that a dog I'm thinking of specifically is NOT okay with other dogs. And this person has no problem using punishment to train (and we all know I'm a cookie-pusher as far as methodology goes). IMHO, from what I've seen, it's more that people aren't willing to put forth the effort to properly train their dogs and they put them in the ring before they're ready.

With Risa's history, I would not ask her to do group stays. If all the dogs could hold position, she could do it just fine and there wouldn't be an issue. HOWEVER, I know who my dog is. For her, that's an extremely stressful situation even though she has the training. I would not want her to feel afraid in the ring; it's supposed to be her safe place. If another dog broke and came over to her, I would not want her to feel concerned for her safety (which she might). I also would not want to potentially ruin someone else's dog's good time in the ring if Risa were to overreact to a dog approaching her. Therefore, I long ago decided that I will not put her in that situation. Period. If everyone really thought about the potential repercussions of their actions (or their dog's actions), I don't think we'd have some of the issues we do.

That being said, I won't miss them any more than I miss the Honor in rally.


You are one of the few thoughtful and honest owners of dogs! And I agree with you about the reasons for the issues!

I also did not show in a class with a group stay (although we did do the ScH with the Long Down and he was good) because I knew him at the time and if a dog challenged him = FIGHT. Little dogs or friendly ones running up to him was fine but aggression was not going to work - so no Groups. GSD would probably get blamed!

The AKC actually cited the variety of methods (not naming them of course) in their reasons for the changes. I would agree it is more the trainer and application of the method.

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