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Connie Cleveland training? #341239
07/21/16 12:07 AM
07/21/16 12:07 AM
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Just curious as to whether anyone else has attended any of her seminars? We did in CA a few years ago and have stayed in touch with her since.

I think she is the best trainer/instructor we have had and was just curious as to whether anyone else had any experience with her.
She does do a few seminars annually across the country I know.

Very practical approach.

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Codmaster] #341331
07/29/16 05:21 PM
07/29/16 05:21 PM
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I have been to one of her seminars. I won't go again. Basically I told her if she touched my dog again (Kayos) I would break her F ----- arm. Then I left.

She is the queen of the ear pinch. She may do it well but most others don't.

We were demonstrating retrieves and she was adamant that we all had to try the ear pinch. It was our turn so I tossed the dumbbell which went out the ring and under a chair someone was sitting on. She told me not sent to send. But too late I already had. Kayos cleared the jump, ring gate, got the dumbbell from under the chair and came back the way she went out. Ah said Connie someone here uses the ear pinch. I had to tell her no - that was a fully shaped retrieve.

Later we were heeling and she wanted me to pop Kayos with a pinch collar to get her head a bit higher. I had no prong with me. I don't really have problem with them so I allowed her to use someone else's and show me what she wanted. She jerked Kayos so hard she screamed and that was when I told her about breaking her arm and left.

There are no points lost for heeling with a head that is not up. Kayos rarely lost much on heeling and her head was always angled up to me but not enough for Connie. If she wants to train her dogs that way, knock it out sister.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Kayos] #341336
07/30/16 03:44 AM
07/30/16 03:44 AM
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Good for you Kathy! I only had one trainer that I wanted to tell to stick it and didn't.

I've known people who wanted to train forced retrieve. Doesn't fit my idea of the relationship I want with my dog. I'll take mouthing a dumbbell, a less than rocket retrieve, thank you.

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: middleofnowhere] #341339
07/30/16 05:46 AM
07/30/16 05:46 AM
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Wow! Thanks for the replies - doesn't sound like the Connie that I know and have worked with and attended a seminar or two.

OTOH, she doesn't put up with any "%^%^" from a dog. I.E. she handled a couple of dogs in the seminar i attended that just absolutely collapsed when given even a little "tug" correction on a leash. A great act by the dog and they had the owner convinced that she was just short of killing the dog! Funny to see the dog then "revive" all of a sudden when he/she realized that the act wasn't going to work with Connie as opposed to the owner! And she had the very same dog heeling great (dog knew how to do it as it was being shown in Open and started in Utility according to the owner!) and showing great enthusiasm and even very friendly to Connie. That owner was absolutely astonished! So was I and everyone else in the audience.

One great thought from Connies thinking - once the dog knows something (a command) then if they decide that they are not going to obey and quickly there are two distinct reasons. One the dog really is confused and doesn't know what to do but is really trying. In this case she recommends "showing' the dog again what to do from the place in the exercise where he went astray and continuing. NO correction!

But the second reason for not obeying is that they are "Blowing you off" due to maybe a distraction they would prefer to pay attention to; or maybe they just don't feel like doing it or ???. In this case Connie recommends a physical correction appropriate to the dog and the level of disobedience! I.E. sometimes with some dogs, a little tug on the leash or even a voice correction will do; other cases (like my sometimes bone headed dog in the past) a firm leash correction maybe with a stern "NO!" would be more appropriate. How about a bit of DA in a training environment? Would a physical correction/firm correction be appropriate then; and very different than a fix for a crooked sit, (I think so).

Don't know about you or anyone else but her theory does work (at least with us).

BTW - with the DB retrieve - in the seminar I saw with Connie, she did use the ear but NOT with a pinch but with a Rub of the ear between her fingers to get the dog to take the DB. She made a BIG point that it was not a Pinch (like in the older approach) And she worked in the seminar with maybe 4/5 dogs and owners. Not one yelp or other noise from the dogs either. We didn't need to use it as our dog was evidently a "Natural" retriever as we never had a bit of trouble with him to "Take It" or "Hold It".

Some dogs I guess could be just naturally a lot "softer" than others and maybe less confident so might need a softer approach; but I think all dogs must learn that when the owner gives a command, they have no choice or decision to make - just do it and quickly! OR they have learned an "Escape" behavior - if the owner tells them to do something they don't want to do; an alternate behavior will work they have learned. My guy used to try that stuff sometimes until he learned it was better for him to do what I told him - much better consequences for him!

OTOH, I have had trainers who I thought were too rough, inappropriately, with dogs - usually trying corrections before teaching the dog what they wanted. OTOH2, I have had more instructors who were positive only and literally did not believe in any corrections, a couple even frowned when an owner used too rough a tone in their voice! totally ineffective with all but the softest dogs!

A hopefully humerous suggestion - I would be real careful if you were serious about "breaking her arm" - she struck me as someone who could easily handle herself! At least she had no trouble handling my then 90lb male GSD who was most self confident, pushy and could be somewhat threatening if he thought he could get away with anything! He was a bully back then, but you would never know it from watching her put him through her paces.

But if you didn't like the way she treated your dog in demanding better attention, I don't blame you for not wanting to try her approach. perhaps your treatment of your dog is better for him.

Some judges do actually reward the real looking up at the handler at least in some AKC OB trials I have attended. Esp. at the National level events that Connie and some of her regular students are aiming for to compete and win.

She does also advocate that each trainer should have a "Picture" of what they want their dogs to perform like - and train for that!

If someone is satisfied with a dog lagging just a bit sometimes or not paying as much attention as they should when heeling; or maybe just walking in on a Recall, etc.; then that is fine! I often train with a person who is a Rally/OB instructor at the local club whose dog is extremely reliable in Open and Utility but is also very slow moving. If one is aiming higher, then one should aim higher and train that way and esp. demand the high level from the dog.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that of course - a decision to be made conciously I think and then set training goals approaches and demands in that light!

At any rate, I really do appreciate the time and effort to reply to my question!

And may everyone's training go well! It is fun, but can be SO frustrating at times!

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: middleofnowhere] #341340
07/30/16 05:54 AM
07/30/16 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
Good for you Kathy! I only had one trainer that I wanted to tell to stick it and didn't.

I've known people who wanted to train forced retrieve. Doesn't fit my idea of the relationship I want with my dog. I'll take mouthing a dumbbell, a less than rocket retrieve, thank you.


And Connie would agree with you - if you will accept "mouthing" on a DB retrieve or a slow retrieve; then more power to you.

OTOH, do not equate demanding fast accurate obedience performance with a bad relationship with your dog.

Also, firm, even physical corrections do not "break" a good relationship with your dog either!

Of course I think we all have had trainers that we did not like or continue with because we didn't like their methods or results. I have!

One trainer we used when our dog was pretty young was "Treats" oriented trainer - that was her main tool. She was absolutely lost when our guy ignored any treat when he decided he wanted to do something other that what he was told to do. He ignored the treat - her first thought was "Get a higher Value" treat. Astounded when even raw Chicken and/or steak pieces were ignored! Funny to see her confusion! A leash correction with a prong convinced my stubborn dog that it was better for him to obey!

And he still loved me!

Anyway, thanks and good luck with your dogs!

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Kayos] #341341
07/30/16 06:10 AM
07/30/16 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kayos
I have been to one of her seminars. I won't go again. Basically I told her if she touched my dog again (Kayos) I would break her F ----- arm. Then I left.

She is the queen of the ear pinch. She may do it well but most others don't.

We were demonstrating retrieves and she was adamant that we all had to try the ear pinch. It was our turn so I tossed the dumbbell which went out the ring and under a chair someone was sitting on. She told me not sent to send. But too late I already had. Kayos cleared the jump, ring gate, got the dumbbell from under the chair and came back the way she went out. Ah said Connie someone here uses the ear pinch. I had to tell her no - that was a fully shaped retrieve.

Later we were heeling and she wanted me to pop Kayos with a pinch collar to get her head a bit higher. I had no prong with me. I don't really have problem with them so I allowed her to use someone else's and show me what she wanted. She jerked Kayos so hard she screamed (poor dog - probably scared the heck out of her! esp. if you never used any leash corrections on her. What a shock to the poor dog!) and that was when I told her about breaking her arm and left.

There are no points lost for heeling with a head that is not up. Kayos rarely lost much on heeling (what did she lose points on for heeling when she did lose any?) and her head was always angled up to me but not enough for Connie. If she wants to train her dogs that way, knock it out sister.


Just out of curiosity, what level is your dog at - Novice, Open, Utility or beyond? Do you compete in local shows, regional OB events, or maybe National trials? The seminars I attended seemed to be filled with folks who were aiming at the high level stuff - regional at least and even HIT at National OB events like the Purina things.
Different expectations/hopes that most of us.

Connie said that you had to ear pinch your dog even though he executed the retrieve perfectly? That sure doesn't sound like the Connie we trained with. That would be odd.

As far as the heeling - did you tell her ahead of time that you didn't care about "Attention Heeling" - and that you were satisfied with the way your dog heeled now? she probably made an assumption (wrongly as it turned out in your case) that you wanted to improve it, I am guessing.
Ever see the top scoring national OB dogs (or ScH/IPO top dogs in OB) - all of the ones I have seen in the last few years heel right next to their handler and looking at them. But if you don't want/need that then that is also cool.

Thanks!

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Codmaster] #341346
07/31/16 03:12 AM
07/31/16 03:12 AM
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Codmaster - can you just accept that someone doesn't like your prize trainer? Or the methods some people employ? Some training methods may get showy results but some of us may disagree enough with the methods that we will either find another way or be happy with less flashy results. That's me. I think we all have our ego involved to some extent - and get it fed in different ways.

Your responses in this thread have gone back to feeling combative. Kinda like the folks at a public meeting who get into "whose your momma?" crap when someone testifies in opposition to their proposal. So how about "stop it!"?

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: middleofnowhere] #341349
07/31/16 02:43 PM
07/31/16 02:43 PM
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Codmaster, Kayos was in Open. I retired her soon after as she needed a hip replaced and the broad jump was beginning to bother her. She is nearly 14 now.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: middleofnowhere] #341359
08/01/16 01:07 AM
08/01/16 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
Codmaster - can you just accept that someone doesn't like your prize trainer? Or the methods some people employ? Some training methods may get showy results but some of us may disagree enough with the methods that we will either find another way or be happy with less flashy results. That's me. I think we all have our ego involved to some extent - and get it fed in different ways.

Your responses in this thread have gone back to feeling combative. Kinda like the folks at a public meeting who get into "whose your momma?" crap when someone testifies in opposition to their proposal. So how about "stop it!"?


"Whose your momma" - wonder where you came up with that from? Heh! Heh! I won't even guess - your secret. Can you "Stop it"?

Yes, of course I can accept. That is why I asked the level and what the goals were in training and also the fact that Connie is highly into "Competition" level OB (at least in her seminars from what I saw).

And if you or anyone else is not into that level of OB (trial or for backyard work- that is perfectly fine with me)! Totally up to each owner/trainer to decide what they want and expect from their dog and themselves. If you are happy/satisfied with however less than "Perfect" obedience with your dog - more power to you as long as you are happy with their obedience and performance!

It is a shame that you get so combative if you disagree with someone (me esp.).

Personally I have come to the conclusion that my dog was capable of very very good obedience and we were working hard toward a burst of AKC OB trialing this year. And we had very high expectations of his behavior under any level of distraction - but that was my decision and mine only as every trainer should make up their own mind.

Just out of my own curiosity - do you believe in/use any physical corrections for your dog when they know a command and do not obey or obey very slowly? Either for OB exercises or even in "Home Behavior"? Just curious?

BTW - not combative at all - just asked a question about a particular trainer who was extremely effective for me, my dog and our training.

Now, if anyone was to ask me about someone like Jean Donaldson or Karen, V. Stillwell or a couple of local trainers/instructors in our OB club, or similar trainers; I can assure you I might get emotional about them and their "stupid" ineffective methods as well.
Dog training methods and choices are such personal things, ain't they.

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Kayos] #341360
08/01/16 01:13 AM
08/01/16 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kayos
Codmaster, Kayos was in Open. I retired her soon after as she needed a hip replaced and the broad jump was beginning to bother her. She is nearly 14 now.


Thanks! and congrats on having such an old veteran dog! Ain't "Old dogs" so very special? Bummer on the poor girl having a hip problem! (I know the feeling!)

Don't blame you a bit, btw, for getting upset with a trainer that you thought was hurting your dog! I was just trying (not very well evidently) to explain my experience with Connie and perhaps a bit about why she was trying so hard to get your dog to "Improve" her performance.

She was one of the very few trainer/instructors who could handle my very headstrong bold dog when he was 4-5 yo and feeling his oats! She knew how to get through to him and he really liked her and responded very well to her handling.

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Codmaster] #341361
08/01/16 04:35 AM
08/01/16 04:35 AM
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Probably best if an admin could close (delete?) this thread as it clearly seems to be a source of upset with some folks.

Best if we all just find and use trainers that we are comfortable with!

I have always liked hearing from folks with a different approach myself - I may not agree or use their approach but it is interesting to hear about other approaches.

I did (finally!) realize that some approaches/methods that I first ran across with instructors at our local OB scene would and did not work with my guy!

Wasn't till we found a great trainer at our local ScH club that we really made progress with him. Then we also found an animal behaviorist/instructor (who had a totally different philosophy by the way) who also took a liking to my dog and was very effective with him as well using a really different approach.

Both worked well with him and I adopted pieces of each and we began to make some real progress in his obedience.

Re: Connie Cleveland training? [Re: Codmaster] #341366
08/01/16 07:10 PM
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