Actually, I have done pro IT work for a zero salary - it was called "Volunteer" work for dog organizations (one OB and the others GSD related).

And I was HIGHLY motivated to do the work (kind of how I want my dog to "work" as a matter of fact!). Unlike how some folks would be from their postings without a "Good" salary and benefits as well I would assume.

I equate the paycheck to dog food. Not to the reward.
Dogs eat to live, not to be rewarded. We work for a salary (i.e. to live), not to
be rewarded. The rewards occur on an incident by incident basis.
... or in the case of work on a project by project basis.
I reiterate that my motivation to 'do right' came more from acceptance/approval
based on my performance and I wasn't really sure I 'did right' until someone
told me so. This was because I was working for them, not for me.
Very much like the way dogs learn that they are performing correctly
in any given situation.

Good points!

Those of you who say Stop signs are not often obeyed - think about this for just a minute and see if it might influence your training.

First - The odds of getting caught! (Usually very low for running a stop sign!)

Second - the penalty/punishment if you do get caught. (usually just a fine of varying amounts depending on where you get caught! And many times just a warning (at least in my own case!)

Whoops - wrong key!!!!!!!

How about if we could increase the odds of getting "Caught" to 60-70% say, and at the same time increase the penalty to $500, or maybe even jail time - would either/both of these change your mind about running a Stop Sign?

Would me!!!!!!!!!

Can we translate to a dog's OB? Yup! Increase the % of time we catch and correct the "Mistake" (after we are sure the dog knows what he/she is to do I.E. Stop at the sign); and also make the "penalty/correction a "Meaningful" one (depends on the dog what level this means from a harsh verbal "NO!" or something similar, to a small leash "pop" or some other suitable physical correction.

Absolutely does make a difference in people (me anyway!) and also in dogs(at least in the ones I have owned and trained).

Note that we also have to account for the concept of "Self Rewarding" (in the eyes of the dog!) behavior. I.E. if the dog rewards himself by grabbing a piece of meat off the table and eating it, then your punishment must be timed and be large enough so that that reward is less!

Volunteer work may be "work" in one sense but it has it's "paycheck" via a personal sense of achievement/do-goodism/rightthing/etc. that we get from each stint. There's a motivation to do the volunteer work and a reward related to it OR we quit doing it. [I've worked in a field that relied on volunteers; I've worked as a volunteer]

"Punishment" just isn't what I like to go by. Digging through the trash? DA human needs to put the trash up. Stealing food - hey if there's chocolate lying around, I'd undoubtedly eat it regardless. So set the steak on the back of the counter or put it in the refridgerator or keep the dog out of the room.

Yes, I would rather my dog would recall off the fence where she's barking at the horse BUT if I need to go out and get her (much as picking her up from a bark and hold) so be it. Sometimes with dogs (like with humans) you need to go with what works and by what works it is also what builds or maintains the relationship you want.

CM has a different criteria so far as ultimate relationship and how to get there from what I do. His dog may still retain a joyful spirit when working with him. His technique seems to work for him and this dog. I now choose not to use that path as my first response.

If I had to put the trash away and just out of reach of my dog (and we did while training if I wasn't around0 then I would call that "Management" not training. And for some things no doubt it would work and might be the best approach for them and for some people.
For other things in daily life; that approach would not work for us. I.E. a recall - we aim for 100% obedience under any circumstances or temptations (not that we really expect it but that is our target and figure the higher we aim the better we can achieve).

Looking at "Punishment", or the other word often used for the same thing - "Coercion" - YUP, have to plead guilty to using it at an appropriate level and type.

However, a better word for this action is simply "Information" - that is we are simply giving "Information" to our dog, that what he is doing is not correct and will not be tolerated so he better figure something else out!

We want him simply to adopt the "Habit" of correct behavior so that he does it without having to think about it at all.

And it seems to be working!

Baron, our 7yo male GSD is a very strong willed and self confident dog who will try to test the limits every now and then to see what he can get away with. VERY sweet dog but can be a big handful sometimes. A fun dog!

If I had to put the trash away and just out of reach of my dog (and we did while training if I wasn't around0 then I would call that "Management" not training. And for some things no doubt it would work and might be the best approach for them and for some people.
For other things in daily life; that approach would not work for us. I.E. a recall - we aim for 100% obedience under any circumstances or temptations (not that we really expect it but that is our target and figure the higher we aim the better we can achieve).

Looking at "Punishment", or the other word often used for the same thing - "Coercion" - YUP, have to plead guilty to using it at an appropriate level and type.

However, a better word for this action is simply "Information" - that is we are simply giving "Information" to our dog, that what he is doing is not correct and will not be tolerated so he better figure something else out!

We want him simply to adopt the "Habit" of correct behavior so that he does it without having to think about it at all.

And it seems to be working!

Baron, our 7yo male GSD is a very strong willed and self confident dog who will try to test the limits every now and then to see what he can get away with. VERY sweet dog but can be a big handful sometimes. A fun dog!

I imagine it gets down to "pick your battles". I think you like a wider array of battles than I do.

I am a slob. I lack the neatness gene. In Arkansas, my couch was chronically covered with boxes and paper. Here, for several months, it remained wrapped in shipper's shrink wrap. It has now been cleared. Neither dog gets on the couch. It is not seen as a dog bed.

My most tempting trash, the one that would make a royal mess if distributed, is in a container with a lid. Works for us. But I'll confess that to avoid the interest of wildlife, mice, other varments (SP) and the neighbor's cats, my animal protien waste gets frozen until it is trash time. Management? Sure. Why not?

I hate the word "obey". I think that says more about our egos as humans than anything else.

My dog and I are a part of a team. My dogs do not obey. We learn from each other.

When you say "Come" what do you expect your dog to do?


To Me (and I hope to him)- "Come" means my dog should stop whatever he is doing, wherever he is and trot(at least!) over to me, sit his butt right in front of me and look at me and wait till I give him the next command (or "OK" as a release to him). To me, that is what I mean by "Obey".

Yup, we too are a team (but not a democracy where everyone has an equal vote) - our team is more like a military organization where there is a definite one person in charge and orders are to be followed!

Everyone should do with their dogs as they see best! no problem with that whatsoever, as long as it doesn't impact me and my dogs - no problem!

I would guess that you do not show your dog in OB or Rally or ScH or the like where the dog is supposed to do what the handler tells them to and quickly.

But if you and anyone else is ok with their dogs not "obeying" when they are told to do something - cool for them! Just not for me and my pooch! That would make me crazy! (and also probably him as well!)

My dogs obey. When a man and women take their vows in front of the preacher, the word OBEY is something to get your dander up. But dogs are not people.

A dog does not have the ability to understand that if he bites someone walking down the street, a court may order his distruction. A dog does not have the understanding that chewing on electric cords might fry his brain cells, and he may or may not live through that but it won't be the same.

We can protect our dogs from dangers, using constant supervision, leash control, or we can train our dogs to obey our voice, and we can train our dogs to avoid something. When our dog has mastered these things to a certain level of confidence, the dog can have more freedom.

I love my dogs to no end, but we are not equal players on the same team. I am the one that must provide the food, the shelter, and the discipline. I am the one that will have to pay for any destructive behavior. I am the one that will mourn for a dog that was either put down or accidently killed.

Obedience is not a bad word. What does the Bible say, something to the effect that one who loves his child, chasteneth it. Well, if we love our dog, we must discipline the dog so that it understands what is ok and what is not ok, what is expected, etc. When the dog understands these things, the dog is much more happy and comfortable. His spirit is at peace, not crushed or broken. He can step out confidently because the world makes sense to him.

Dogs are not children, but children need to obey their parents up to a certain point. Because children are not young adults, they do not see long-term consequences of actions, and the adults responsible for them have to be responsible and protect and discipline them, so that when they are adults, they will be able to protect and discipline themselves. Dogs are never going to grow up and move out and be at the level of the adult human. So they must obey the human, not as an equal.

I am sorry, but I can't buy the obey-word is wrong. We are a team, sure, but only because we have a good strong foundation and trust between us, and we both of us know who is doing the leading.

Great explanation!

I think that perhaps the person who wrote about "Habit" as part of why a dog obeys was talking about muscle memory. For a fast, precise movement, muscle memory is extremely important. It cuts out that middle time of having to process the command - instead of "1.command - 2. think about what needs to be done in order to perform command - 3.perform command" it is more like "1. command - 2. perform" because the movement is automatic and the dog doesn't have to take time to process.

Muscle memory works in almost anything we do. Consider driving a stick-shift car. When you start, you have to think about each step. Take your foot off the gas, push in the clutch, shift to the appropriate gear, let out the clutch while putting on the gas. None of it is smooth and it's often slow and jerky. But as you practice, you get better and then one day you realize you're not thinking about it at all - it just happens.

Piano playing is another good example. I taught music lessons for decades and it was always exciting when a student got to the place where fingerings and reading the notes and finding the right keys became automatic instead of labored.

Dogs also build muscle memory. Even simple things like chasing a ball or Frisbee shows definite muscle memory improvement. When they first start to go after a ball or Frisbee, it's almost like their feet and mouths and bodies are all different entities, and they miss the ball or trip or their teeth snap on empty air as the Frisbee sails by a foot away. But as they gain experience, the muscle memory improves and then they look like poetry in motion as they zoom out and make a clean and quick catch.

One of the reasons agility training takes so long for most people is that the dogs - AND the people - have to build so many different sets of muscle memory in order to perform the various obstacles. Because most people don't do a lot of truly active activities with their dogs outside of training, the dogs take a long time to learn the muscle memory. A dog that is naturally athletic and coordinated can build muscle memory more quickly than dogs that have limited exposure to physical activities or who are natural klutzes.

My first Chow was the first dog I showed in agility, and I did zero actual agility training until 2 months prior to the trials. Then I taught her the weave poles and spent time on the teeter - the two obstacles we had no experience on. I just trained on my own. This was a CDX dog, so she had lots of jumping behind her already. Plus she had, since puppyhood, gone on hikes with me and would run through the woods, leaping logs and dodging branches and bushes. We'd done tunnels in various ways (going through culverts on the back roads, for example) and she knew ramps and how to walk across high areas just from walking on logs, etc. Because she had a lot of practical muscle memory experience, she took to most of the agility obstacles easily. Two months after starting her on the weave poles and teeter, she earned her first agility title at her first weekend of trials.

I've always felt that we hold back our dogs so much when it comes to learning, because most of our dogs are kept so contained and they don't get that natural exercise that helps them build the muscles and the memories to control those muscles. One of the reasons that certain breeds are considered top obedience breeds (border collies, goldens, etc.) is because they have good natural muscle memory and they are also easy to motivate. Good working dog/human teams are a joy to watch, but I have to admit that I'm not overly impressed by the natural obedience breeds when I see them succeed in obedience. The ones that impress me are the people who are succeeding with breeds that are not known for their obedience and athletic ability. Those are the ones that are a challenge.

Now let's all get away from the computer and take our dogs out in the woods so they can jump logs and build some good muscle memory! *L*

Melanie and the girls in Alaska

"I think that perhaps the person who wrote about "Habit" as part of why a dog obeys was talking about muscle memory"

Nope - she was talking about the dog's "Brain Memory" and making it a habit to obey.

Example - we taught our 7+yo male GSD to wait at the door to go into or out of the backyard into/from the house. Even if it is open he should wait till he hears "OK" before going thru the door. At first he wanted to GO thru it as fast as he could.

Now, however, 99% of the time he will stop and look at me/wife before going thru it. His behavior at the door is now a habit!

We are working at his response to "Heel" - he should be in the right position opposite my left knee and looking up at me and sit when I stop and go when he sees the Heel signal or hears the command "Heel". It is currently a "semi habit" in that he does it most of the time but not 99% yet but we are getting there.

The trainer I referred to also indicated that she would not show her dog till the correct ring behavior had become the dogs "Habit" - a great idea I think.

Not having read the whole article, I only had the tiny bit you put down to go by. Despite whatever behavior is being taught, muscle memory is a huge part of it. Automatically sitting at a door involves muscle memory as much as anything else. And when it comes to training dogs, muscle memory is more vital than simple "habit" in my opinion. And brain memory isn't habit, either. If remembering to do something is still involved, it's not a truly ingrained habit.

You used the heeling looking up as an example of habit, and that's a muscle memory behavior. I'm sure the two terms get intermingled a certain amount, but as a long-time trainer myself I believe in muscle memory over habit especially when it comes to precision behaviors. Habit (and the need to urinate) may make a dog go to the door when it wants out, but muscle memory is going to have him plant his butt in the same place every time.

Anyway, I agree less with the trainer you referenced if simple habit is all she means. But it may all just be semantics, too.

Now I find myself not so interested in this discussion .. *L* oh well. Thought it might be something interesting after all, but habit is not interesting to me in this context.

Melanie

So be it then. "simple" habit? It is not simple but a great investment in training.

"Habit" = Dog doesn't have to "think" about what to do when a command is given or a particular situation developes.

What we are looking for is an "automatic" response to it - not one where he gets to have to make a decision.

Could be a semantic difference in what one means by "Habit" of course.

But regardless, everyone should train their dogs as they think best.

BTW - this trainer is one of the very best in the nation herself, winning many national level competitions; so my guess is that her approach does work no matter what anyone may call it.

And her students/seminar attendees have likewise won a great deal in top level competitions.

One really useful "habit" we have developed in our dog is when he goes out thru the door, he knows to sit and "Wait" until he is given an "OK" even when the door is open. BTW - he does actually go out and come back in many times other than just having to pee!

AHA! You do get the idea of "Habit" - the dog does NOT have to think and remember to look up when heeling - it has become the way he does "Heel" - no thinking involved! That is the whole point!

Thanks!

I have not read all the full posts but I think brain memory and muscle memory may be nearly one and the same.

I can chose to disobey my boss and risk getting fired. Instead it is my habit to obey him and I really don't think too much about it unless it is something really off the wall, then I will ask him if this is really what he had in mind.

I think most dogs if are trained kindly but consistently learn to obey out of habit and muscle memory. I still like a thinking dog tho.

sounds like it to me also!