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Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: MaxaLisa] #311278
03/20/14 04:26 PM
03/20/14 04:26 PM
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Diana Offline OP
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I've been away from a bit but there is no real news. Renji is unfortunately getting very thin. Like greyhound-thin. He is getting about 1.25 lbs/day, which is a little over 2% for a 50 lb dog. He is 45 lbs. Something is up because he is eating the same stuff he always has been. NEVER had issues with absorption. I'd have to look back but during his most active days, he was getting about 1.5 or 1.75 lbs/day which is a LOT for a dog his size, but then again he was extremely active. Nothing has changed in his diet except I pulled out all beef (except liver) from his diet due to gas. Maybe there is something in the supplements that affect values. Raw is generally not considered a high protein diet but I could be wrong.

Can EPI develop out of the blue? He is always acting like he is starving, bowel movements appear mostly normal, and he is eating what I give but... dang dog's wasting away in front of me.

Lisa, I must thank you for an extremely thorough and well thought-out analysis. I *wish* the vets had given me SOMETHING like this other than "normal, bring him back if you're so worried." I don't believe I am bringing him back there. If anything, I'll be taking him back to UF Gainesville. But at this point, I have to weigh the stress. Sedation is very hard on him and just being at the vet is a tremendously stressful event. I could make things worse trying to chase this until we have something more concrete to seek.

I'm to the point of picking up some of that EPI powder to see if that helps. I can't get pancreas regularly enough to rely on that alone.

Thanks to all who suggested cleaning solution alternatives. I'll have to use those to take out the Odoban. Odoban is so far the only thing I've found that destroys the present nicotine/cigarette odors but Odoban is horrible stuff.

Patti, that's a good idea about having Renji play fetch while at the vet. If we go up to Gainesville, I will definitely suggest that. I'm hoping we can see if the Prozac levels him out a bit before we need to go. I don't know if it helps any, but he'll walk just fine. It's a fast walk, too. I have to hoof it to keep up! And he is happy to go on for quite awhile. Why in the world would he not want to play fetch, I don't know. It could be as simple as his hips hurt even though they aren't bad radiographically.


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #311325
03/21/14 05:33 AM
03/21/14 05:33 AM
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Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Originally Posted By: Diana
I've been away from a bit but there is no real news. Renji is unfortunately getting very thin. Like greyhound-thin. .....

.....He is always acting like he is starving, bowel movements appear mostly normal, and he is eating what I give but... dang dog's wasting away in front of me.

....I'm to the point of picking up some of that EPI powder to see if that helps. I can't get pancreas regularly enough to rely on that alone.

.... I don't know if it helps any, but he'll walk just fine. It's a fast walk, too. I have to hoof it to keep up! And he is happy to go on for quite awhile. Why in the world would he not want to play fetch, I don't know. It could be as simple as his hips hurt even though they aren't bad radiographically.


Pancreatic Function can decrease over time so that where there weren't symptoms before, you can start seeing them.

But there are also other things that could be going on. Without looking at the bloodwork, it sure sounds a lot like a tick disease. Two things - 1) a negative test does not mean it isn't there, and 2) the bloodwork doesn't strongly support a tick disease, so it's not clear at all....

I would do the following as my starting point....

I would first get those enzymes and slowly add them. If he has big problems with pork, you might have to try something like a plant based one like Similase.

I would also slowly add a probiotic, VERY slowly add a soluble fiber (I like apple pectin), and I would give some B12 sublingual or liquid (cmake sure there is no xylitol), along with a general B-50.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: MaxaLisa] #311344
03/21/14 12:31 PM
03/21/14 12:31 PM
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Braverhund Offline
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Now that you mention it Lisa, Grimmi got mysteriously super-skinny when he had tick disease. I do think of adding pancreatic enzymes and B12 anyway, but I'm wondering about the weight loss in your boy. I have no answers, just many ongoing well-wishes for a solution to be found for your sweet Renji. crossedfingers


Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
Smokey The TeddyLion, DLH purrbuddy

Dir gehört mein Herz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Braverhund] #311345
03/21/14 12:52 PM
03/21/14 12:52 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: Braverhund
Now that you mention it Lisa, Grimmi got mysteriously super-skinny when he had tick disease.

Yes, it's common frown

But maybe this is EPI/SIBO, which hould be suspect in any dog that has any amount of GSD in them crazy


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: MaxaLisa] #311349
03/21/14 04:30 PM
03/21/14 04:30 PM
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Posts: 522
Diana Offline OP
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Lisa, do you have suggestions for enzymes? I know Viokase and one other are rx-only. What about Bio Case or the stuff from Enzyme Diane? Are they all about the same or are the specifics to get?

Holy snozz they are expensive...


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #311350
03/21/14 04:54 PM
03/21/14 04:54 PM
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Diana Offline OP
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Diana  Offline OP
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Not just Lisa, anyone.... brain is fried today.


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #311352
03/21/14 05:39 PM
03/21/14 05:39 PM
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Braverhund Offline
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You might wish to start an enzyme thread, for exposure, for more responses from folks who might have tried and liked, or tried and disliked, more different enzyme products.

Be sure it's a doggy product, or ensure that it doesn't come with stuff like fillers & extras that might make a dog itchy or gassy. Who needs the drama! grin


Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
Smokey The TeddyLion, DLH purrbuddy

Dir gehört mein Herz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #311353
03/21/14 05:42 PM
03/21/14 05:42 PM
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Diana Offline OP
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Diana  Offline OP
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Went ahead w/ Enzyme Diane after some reading around. Crossing fingers...


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #311355
03/21/14 06:02 PM
03/21/14 06:02 PM
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MSD Offline
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Diana— hi, could you use something like Super Enzymes from NOW Foods? Here is the main ingredient list:

Betaine HCl 200 mg.
Pancreatin 4X 200 mg.
Supplying: Amylase 20,000 USP units.
Protease 20,000 USP units.
Lipase 3,400 USP units.
Ox Bile Extract (45% Cholic Acid) 100 mg.
Bromelain (2,400 GDU/g)(from Pineapple) 50 mg.
Papain (2M FCCPU/mg) Powder (from Papaya) 50 mg.
Pepsin (NF 1:10M units) Powder 50 mg.
Papaya Fruit Powder 45 mg.
Pineapple Juice Powder 45 mg.
Cellulase (1M CU/g) Powder 10 mg.

Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #311383
03/22/14 07:23 AM
03/22/14 07:23 AM
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Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: Diana
Went ahead w/ Enzyme Diane after some reading around. Crossing fingers...

I hope they help! I would also do the other things too. It sounds like the gut is really out of wack.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: MaxaLisa] #311407
03/22/14 03:36 PM
03/22/14 03:36 PM
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Diana Offline OP
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Diana  Offline OP
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Ordered some of this http://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881 as recommended on Enzyme Diane. We couldn't do monthly B12 injections, at least not until/unless the Prozac settles Renji out a bit.


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #313818
04/21/14 04:25 PM
04/21/14 04:25 PM
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Diana Offline OP
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We have Tylan powder on the way which should be in tomorrow. The pancreatic enzymes helped; no more diarrhea, some weight gain across ribs. However, his gut noises are super loud, his gas is weapons-grade sulphur, and every time I put hands on him I feel more bones I haven't felt before. Renji is losing weight very fast and is turning into a furry skeleton despite being fed a fair amount of food and living a quite sedentary life. And yet the vets found nothing wrong.......

We will be back to another vet. Hoping to give the Prozac a bit more time, crossing fingers the Tylan finishes what the pancreatic enzymes started.


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #313898
04/23/14 12:00 AM
04/23/14 12:00 AM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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I hope that the SIBO Tylan does the trick crossedfingers

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 04/23/14 08:05 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: MaxaLisa] #313967
04/23/14 10:26 PM
04/23/14 10:26 PM
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Posts: 522
Diana Offline OP
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Diana  Offline OP
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So far, it is. Not a single bad fart since starting Tylan and no abnormal tummy rumbles. In fact, he's been very quiet.

I will be ecstatic if this is the solution. However, the vets will be getting some interesting questions. As in, they had the symptom information, I've told them he's been losing weight, lethargic, gassy, some not-normal stool, and the tests came back normal. To say nothing of the acute symptoms that night. How in the world, as vets, they wouldn't know to suggest pancreas/bacterial overgrowth? ESPECIALLY in a GSD or GSD mix?!

Sorry, this has me livid. Poor dog's been suffering for a long time and it's only because I took the risk to experiment that we're finally making headway. The enzymes and the Tylan were my stabs in the dark. It was either that or he was going to waste away in front of my eyes. No, I won't be nasty to the vets. After a few weeks of good, clear progress, I'll let them know what's working so maybe they'll recognize it in future patients.

Done venting. We're crossing everything we have here that Renji rallies and is a different dog in 30 days. Thank you all for standing by us!


Renji - 12ish M GSD x chow rescue

"German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German shepherd dog breeding." -v. Stephanitz
Re: Renji health issues - Bloodwork! [Re: Diana] #313987
04/24/14 03:17 AM
04/24/14 03:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Good call on the Tylan. If the response was immediate, that's pretty telling.

These gut infections are really "under appreciated" by these vets. Our internal medicine vet sure understands them, but Max was sick for a long time until I treated him on my own - I had the same issue, though I think I was more angry than you sound. I think I became more angry in hindsight.

I really hope that the tylan does the trick. It has such a wide dosing ranch, it's pretty handy.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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