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Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: BowWowMeow] #283816
05/28/13 02:57 AM
05/28/13 02:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,096
Manitoulin Island, Ontario, Ca...
Islandgsds Offline
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Islandgsds  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Manitoulin Island, Ontario, Ca...
The first gsd I ever owned was a 'hand me down" from a boyfriend of a friend of mine. I met the dog when it was a 3 month old pup. He was a real sweetheart, but already showed he was a high drive dog.
This jerk was a real fan of the koeler method. He would carry a piece of hose in his back pocket. I can still remember him telling me that the trick was to encourage the dog to do wrong, then to quickly grab the hose, hit him between the eyes, then hide the hose immediately. That would leave the dog stuned and not knowing where the pain came from, but knowing not to do it again.
When Butkus (the dog was named after a football player) was a year old, the owner was moving and had no time for thd dog. That is how I got my first gsd.
He also gave me all of his dog training books and yes I read them. I even used them to start training a second dog. But there was just to many things I disagreed with. Not that I was some hot shot natural trainer, I just couldnt bring myself to doing the things that it called for.
So yes, I am quite familiar with the method.


Sandra
Loki 8/23/08-1016/20 & Augie, bday-11/13 Gday-3/14,
Larka 1/4/06-8/16/17 Palla, 7/16/06-6/10/16 you were the tree that gave me shelter, the rock that gave me strength, for ever in my heart, until my journey has run its length. I will always love you.
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: Islandgsds] #283834
05/28/13 12:30 PM
05/28/13 12:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,815
Los Lunas, NM
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
Kayos  Offline

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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,815
Los Lunas, NM
Taking the middle road here.....

Whether you train with aversives or positives, the dog will learn. Dogs did learn well under the Koehler method. I have his books still in my personal library. There are some decent methods in his books.

I think the cruel methods described are in the last chapter of the book under problem solving.

Would I whack my dog in the head with a hose, or hang or helicapoter him? Or would I stuff their head in a hole filled with water (the digging solution). No I would not.

I think all dogs respond well to positive training. Some do need more corrections than others. No different than kids.

Reading the link, I still think the pup had other stuff going on.


Kathy

PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU, RATN 4/4/12
Jeli, (Pembroke Welsh corgi) CGC, RATI 5/13/19

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos, Havoc - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: Kayos] #283849
05/28/13 02:15 PM
05/28/13 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,408
Albany NY
BasiaBear Offline
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I also got the sense that something must have been going on with the pup that was exacerbated by the correction. Bulldogs already have a lot of breathing problems to begin with. And as someone previously stated, dogs do it to themselves all the time while pulling too hard.

But in no way does that mean I condone those techniques.. especially if it is not your dog and in such a situation that is intended to be a learning environment. There should have been more verbal communication and less reaction by the instructor. "If this were my dog then I would do this" or "alternate methods include, blah blah blah" would have been more instructive than being a show-off.

A definite tragedy.


Danielle
~Basia
~Amadeus
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: BasiaBear] #283855
05/28/13 04:28 PM
05/28/13 04:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,670
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
I think what the pup had going on is that it's a bulldog, and along with that goes confirmation and health problems. Pointing even stronger to a trainer that doesn't know the breed that they are working with.

Jazz has a very sensitive trachea, one reason I try not to let her around others with a collar on (I don't trut them, though it's mandatory at daycare). I could easily see her being damaged by an incident like this, particularly when she was younger.

I think GSD, and owners of ceetain other breeds are a bit spoiled, having dogs that really can take a lot that other breeds wouldn be able to, having had indy and jazz and Max for comparison. It was amazing what he could take and not show... I say this as a testament to the breed more than anything - amazing breed they are...

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 05/28/13 04:30 PM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: MaxaLisa] #283856
05/28/13 04:32 PM
05/28/13 04:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,670
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
What are the chances that this dog was not just hung, but a pretty good collar correction went with that?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: MaxaLisa] #283864
05/28/13 05:45 PM
05/28/13 05:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,815
Los Lunas, NM
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
Kayos  Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out

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Los Lunas, NM
For many years the primary breed in obedience competition was the GSD. They could physically and mentally handle the level of compulsion used to train in those days.

Not sure we will know the answer to that Lisa.


Kathy

PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU, RATN 4/4/12
Jeli, (Pembroke Welsh corgi) CGC, RATI 5/13/19

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos, Havoc - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: Schnickle Fritz] #283885
05/28/13 07:49 PM
05/28/13 07:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 456
3K9Mom Offline
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Originally Posted By: Schnickle Fritz
I think the biggest thing you can learn from this is " DO NOT LET ANYONE TAKE YOUR DOG FROM YOU EVEN IF IT IS IN THE NAME OF """TRAINING"""" !! "


Anyone? Really?

I've trained with the best names in positive-reinforcement behavior modification. Would you not hand over your puppy to Trisha McConnell, honestly?

I'm pleased to hand over my pup to people like that. In fact, I leave my pups at their homes for overnight and several day sleepovers. My pups grow up to be independent dogs who have no issues passing the GCG or staying overnight at the hospital. Their surgeons always remark that they recover from surgery easily because they're not fussing and freaking out all night long. They don't have to be sedated to simply get xrays or spend the night.

It's not the handing off that's the issue; it's certain trainers that are the issue. I don't give a puppy to anyone I don't know or trust completely. Heck, I don't hand off an adult dog to a trainer I don't know extremely well.

I would not have handed off a pup to Selzer's trainer. I would have walked out of that class and sent an email to that Petco manager and Petco corporate.

I've walked out of one training class never to return (an expensive class, where there were sunk costs that I considered an expensive lesson learned). But that's because of that ONE trainer. I don't assume all trainers are dangerous. I don't want my puppies to learn any sort of lesson like that. They're supposed to learn other humans are safe. I'm just careful to only let safe people near them.

I'm incredibly cautious. I do a lot of research. But I'm not paranoid.

Here's the thing, there might be a day when your dog DOES have to be handed off. You may be out with him and have an emergency (you may get sick or there may be an external emergency, from an earthquake to a heck, a crime incident), and someone ELSE will need to take your dog -- maybe a police officer or friendly stranger. If your dog doesn't have a lot of experience beding passed off to people he doesn't know and believing that he can trust them, what then?

I'm not directing this last part at you, specifically. I just get weary (and wary) of folks who won't let their dogs be handled by others, and who proudly state that their dogs won't obey a command given by a trusted stranger. I just don't think we do our dogs any favors when we leave them without any skills to exist in the world without us. The last several months have shown us that the world is a place where unexpected things happen quickly; where dogs DO get separated from their owners, and we need to give our kids skills to function until we can be reunited.

Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: Kayos] #283887
05/28/13 08:03 PM
05/28/13 08:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,670
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Kayos
For many years the primary breed in obedience competition was the GSD. They could physically and mentally handle the level of compulsion used to train in those days.


That's a much better way of saying what I was trying to smile


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: MaxaLisa] #283901
05/28/13 09:57 PM
05/28/13 09:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,408
Albany NY
BasiaBear Offline
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
I think what the pup had going on is that it's a bulldog, and along with that goes confirmation and health problems. Pointing even stronger to a trainer that doesn't know the breed that they are working with.

Couldn't agree more.


Danielle
~Basia
~Amadeus
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: 3K9Mom] #283920
05/29/13 01:56 AM
05/29/13 01:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,372
Wisconsin
Wisc.Tiger_Val Offline
Member First - Owner Second "The Watcher"
Wisc.Tiger_Val  Offline
Member First - Owner Second "The Watcher"

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,372
Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
Originally Posted By: Schnickle Fritz
I think the biggest thing you can learn from this is " DO NOT LET ANYONE TAKE YOUR DOG FROM YOU EVEN IF IT IS IN THE NAME OF """TRAINING"""" !! "


Anyone? Really?

I've trained with the best names in positive-reinforcement behavior modification. Would you not hand over your puppy to Trisha McConnell, honestly?

I'm pleased to hand over my pup to people like that. In fact, I leave my pups at their homes for overnight and several day sleepovers. My pups grow up to be independent dogs who have no issues passing the GCG or staying overnight at the hospital. Their surgeons always remark that they recover from surgery easily because they're not fussing and freaking out all night long. They don't have to be sedated to simply get xrays or spend the night.

It's not the handing off that's the issue; it's certain trainers that are the issue. I don't give a puppy to anyone I don't know or trust completely. Heck, I don't hand off an adult dog to a trainer I don't know extremely well.

I would not have handed off a pup to Selzer's trainer. I would have walked out of that class and sent an email to that Petco manager and Petco corporate.

I've walked out of one training class never to return (an expensive class, where there were sunk costs that I considered an expensive lesson learned). But that's because of that ONE trainer. I don't assume all trainers are dangerous. I don't want my puppies to learn any sort of lesson like that. They're supposed to learn other humans are safe. I'm just careful to only let safe people near them.

I'm incredibly cautious. I do a lot of research. But I'm not paranoid.

Here's the thing, there might be a day when your dog DOES have to be handed off. You may be out with him and have an emergency (you may get sick or there may be an external emergency, from an earthquake to a heck, a crime incident), and someone ELSE will need to take your dog -- maybe a police officer or friendly stranger. If your dog doesn't have a lot of experience beding passed off to people he doesn't know and believing that he can trust them, what then?

I'm not directing this last part at you, specifically. I just get weary (and wary) of folks who won't let their dogs be handled by others, and who proudly state that their dogs won't obey a command given by a trusted stranger. I just don't think we do our dogs any favors when we leave them without any skills to exist in the world without us. The last several months have shown us that the world is a place where unexpected things happen quickly; where dogs DO get separated from their owners, and we need to give our kids skills to function until we can be reunited.


Originally Posted By: Schnickle Fritz
I think the biggest thing you can learn from this is " DO NOT LET ANYONE TAKE YOUR DOG FROM YOU EVEN IF IT IS IN THE NAME OF """TRAINING"""" !! "



When I ran a small beginners training class, there were many times when I was trying to help an owner and they say well the dog just isn't getting it or doesn't understand. 90% of the time it was the owner giving sloppy commands or just really mistiming corrections really confusing the dog. I would try to tell them it isn't the dog and many times I would ask if I could handle their dog. Guess what the dog or pup preformed much better. This way the owner could watch what to do with their dog instead of me just telling them.

I have on many occasions handed my dog off to my Vet. Raya is much better if I am not with her, she is well behaved. But I do have to tell my dogs it is OK to go with a person I let them go with.

I would never hand my dogs off to someone I just met, didn't trust 100%, or was uncomfortable with any thing I saw them do to another dog. I would have to be really comfortable with the group and trainer before I would do pass the puppy. I think there are certain puppies that can not handle the pass the puppy, DeeDee was one. I had an Agility trainer that I wouldn't let handle my dogs because she was afraid of Raya, GSD's were not her breed at all.


Val da Tiger

Fuzzybutt the cat.
Neilla the Big White puppy.

RIP Cheyenne - AKA: Digger, CheyChey Girl, Cheyenne Large and In charge. 2/16/02 - 2/27/16
RIP Raya - AKA: Raz-a, Ray a Sunshine, RayBestos, the little one, Silly Girl. 9/21/05 - 6/27/14
RIP Lakota - AKA: Bubba, Big Boy, BooBoo (the other part of the Binky and BooBoo team). 1/19/03-9/19/2011
RIP DeeDee - AKA: DD Poo, Little Bit, Binky (part of the Binky and Booboo team) 6/23/02-6/20/11
Re: Tragic death in the name of training [Re: Wisc.Tiger_Val] #283925
05/29/13 04:03 AM
05/29/13 04:03 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,386
NE Ohio
Selzer Offline
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Well, I had already handed the puppy off before she brought the mastiff mix to me. I was kind of in a dilemma,really. The regular trainer I have been working with for years. This woman I did not know. But she was just substituting for the day.

Evenso, I did let her know that when my pup walked up to her later, that I was not as concerned with her jumping on people (my dogs rarely jump on anyone but me), but I want her to have good experiences with people. I quickly added that I would keep her from jumping on her.

Also the brindle mastiff was big, at least twice the size of my puppy who was born in the end of January, so about 4 months old. And the first thing it did to me, was to bite my arm. It did not hurt me, and I did say "Eh, easy on my arm," and it immediately stopped. But if the wrong person had that pup do that to him, they might have seriously over-reacted. And I think that could have not been such a great pass the puppy episode.

But generally, pass the puppy is very positive and is good for puppies. I prefer it when they really aren't trying to get my dog to sit. Too many people don't do that properly. I prefer it when they just pet and offer the dog treats.

Usually my trainer has her husband in there, and she can basically observe, and she can get a puppy out of the thick of things if it seems to be getting ready to melt down.

The way this woman did it, well, I thought it wasn't really a good thing to do with people that were new at training and at the class, and she spent her whole time going from the far end of the line over to me with another dog, and wasn't able to ensure the dogs were doing ok.

I suppose that after she over-corrected the brindle dog, I could have gone over and retrieved my dog and said something to the effect that I don't really want others touching her. Or I could have stormed out. I just don't think either was the right thing to do.

Next week the right people will be back in charge.

Last edited by Selzer; 05/29/13 04:05 AM.

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