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Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! #275297
03/13/13 03:10 AM
03/13/13 03:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Well, it's time to give a Jazz update.

We have been having problems here. Jazz has been having urinary and digestive and anxiety problems, and they all get better when she is on cipro. After the cipro is stopped, it only lasts a few weeks before she starts feeling really bad again, which is frustrating, because I don't like this antibiotic roller coaster, and it doesn't completely resolve everything when she's on it either.

Blood tests haven't shown anything useful, though the urinalyses (is that the plural of urinalysis?) have shown white blood cells and high specific gravity, never any bacteria, even when cultured.

She had an abdominal ultrasound last month, which showed everything absolutely normal (we were looking for kidney issues, or something congenital). Today we had an appointment with the IM vet (internal medicine). This is the same one that helped with Max, and I really like him. Great intuition, super smart, and always has a good answer to my weird questions, even if the answer is, "we think..., but we don't know..., could be....."

He has a list of things that could be causing problems for Jazz. It's not exactly a short list. It ranges from vaginitis, to complications from the hernias, to a wide gamut of neurological problems, including borderline seizure activity frown and also including hormonal problems (addison's, etc.) He didn't come out and say it, but it was inferred in one of his answers, but I believe that he thinks there may be more than one thing going on.

I'll write more about the details in the following post, but for those that don't want to read all that, the bottom line is that, in two weeks, on the 28th, her vagina will be scoped (under anesthesia), and hopefully they will get all the way into the bladder, and see what is going on. With luck, they will find a cause of symptoms she is having. If there is something anatomical, she will have surgery at that time, which may be a quick easy surgery, or not, depending on what they find. If there is a surgery, then counting her spay, this will be her 4th surgery in the last year frown


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275298
03/13/13 03:10 AM
03/13/13 03:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,513
Northern CA

Urinary....vaginitis is at the top of the list, just from experience of the pattern with the symptoms and the abx; this is also what the other vet was thinking. This might also explain why the high (sometimes very high) WBCs occur on the free catch samples and not the ones they take directly from the bladder. He also said she might be part cat smile , experiencing cystitis. His intuition is that there is something anatomically wrong that is causing urine to pool, or a nerve or muscle issue that is making it difficult for her to empty her bladder, the latter wouldn't be "fixable" necessarily. The latter case might be related to the hernias or weak muscles not being able to empty the bladder completely. Also, having had the hernias puts her at a higher risk of having something else internal wrong.

Digestive....unless she is on cipro, she seems intolerant to most all foods and has very loose stools. On cipro, I am able to get the diet right. The IM vet thinks that the digestive system is pulling in more water to help move things through, which is creating the high urine specific gravity, and the concentrated urine is definitely an irritant to the bladder. Again, here, he's worried about the abdominal muscles being too weak to help move the food through, or that something else is going on internally. We are hoping that if the vaginal procedure finds something to fix, with the new diet she has that finally just got balanced through the nutritionist Sabine, that that will be enough to address the digestive issues.

She is due for her rabies booster on 4/18. I asked about that and his recommendation. I was very pleased that he was very hesitant to vax her until things are under control and we have her figured out. I did tell him that rabies titers were pending, and he thought that was great.

She has these weird nervous system issues, and sometimes she has weird tongue spasms, where the tongue makes all of these weird contortions. I believe that is why he mentioned the seizure activity, though I really don't think that's going to be an issue. However, I have been staring at this tube of Advantix, whether I should apply it or not...I haven't used anything on her before, but the mosquitos are so bad (who knows what they carry out here), and she's picked up a few fleas in the field and maybe at daycare. I think I will hold off for awhile longer, particularly if she might have surgery in the next couple of weeks.

I should add, the anxiety problems she has when she is off cipro are pretty weird, it doesn't make sense. And eating breakfast makes her tremble too. Without the cipro, she has pure panic attacks in the car. Weird, huh?

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 03/13/13 03:12 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275311
03/13/13 04:24 AM
03/13/13 04:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 456
3K9Mom Offline
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3K9Mom  Offline
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Wow, what a list.

Sounds like you have a lot to cover.

Here's my one somewhat tangential suggestion: if seizure activity is possible, there are two ways to approach this: run an MRI and rule out leisions and other brain "hardware" problems. Or start anti-seizure meds and see if they help. Many owners opt to just try meds, either because they can't afford an MRI or don't feel that their dog can handle the MRI due to anesthesia risk, temperament (they have to ride over to the MRI facility in a n SUV with other dogs,) etc.

Even when the MRI is negative (yay!) as it was with my guy, you're left with a "what now?" scenario. You can stress the dog to seizure threshold to confirm seizure disorder, but the neurologist isn't a big fan of stressing the dog like that.

So we started him on seizure meds anyhow. We started mine on gabapentine (at my specific request) because it is somewhat widely used for pain, behavior management and other off-label uses. I wanted the pain management properties.

I can recommend my Neuro to you most strongly. He is an attentive sole practitioner with impeccable credentials and the way he interacts with my dog is gentle, compassionate and with utter confidence. My guy just walked off with him like a 8 wk old pup.

So while you're checking off boxes, a second set of eyes may very much help. I don't think it can hurt. Ruling out Neuro causes would be ideal. But if we can't, treating them might provide Jazz pain relief for her other issues as well. It might also help with her anxiety. We didn't realize until after he was on his meds that his small (often undetectable) seizures were making my guy extremely anxious. We don't see that anymore.

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275312
03/13/13 04:25 AM
03/13/13 04:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
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Tara  Offline
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Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Lisa, your post made me think Neospora caninum. It's a parasitic protozoan in dogs similar to Toxoplasma gondii in cats. You can see neuro signs in the hind end and head with Neospora IIRC. Since Toxo responds to treatment with Clindamycin in cats, I think Neospora may in dogs as well, but I'd have to do some more research. This is probably somewhat obscure, but thought I'd mention it in case it triggers an idea for something to help Jazzy.

ETA: I have an exam on Thursday, but after I'll try to do a lit search for you.

Last edited by Tara; 03/13/13 04:27 AM.

Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: 3K9Mom] #275313
03/13/13 04:31 AM
03/13/13 04:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
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3K9Mom Offline
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3K9Mom  Offline
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Oh, fwiw, I used Advantix on Celo a few months ago and he had seizures that night where he had been seizure- free for months. The Neuro said that technically, there is no conclusive evidence that flea meds cause seizures. But his owners sometimes claim such things.

I've used Frontline+ before and since and never had any issues.

Costco sells it. I also have a year's worth in various sizes (of course).. I can give you a month's dose if you want to try it before you buy a bunch. Drop me a note.

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: 3K9Mom] #275315
03/13/13 04:54 AM
03/13/13 04:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
Thanks 3K9, very interesting, if not disturbing a bit!

If there is a surgery, I probably will not be able to afford the MRI. I am intrigued by these "small, undetectable" seizures, which I think my guy was probably referring to as a borderline seizure disorder.

We will do the vaginal scope first, but will keep the neuro on the list - I like the idea of an independent guy, particularly one that comes so highly recommended.

The holistic vet put her on the supplement GABA, I'm interested to see the longer term effects of this.....


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275316
03/13/13 04:58 AM
03/13/13 04:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
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Tara  Offline
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Virginia
Oh fail, I just re-read your post and saw it said cipro and I was thinking clindamycin. Sorry!


Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: Tara] #275317
03/13/13 05:03 AM
03/13/13 05:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Tara, didn't see your posts! We have had a few cases of Neo on the tick list, but interesting. She had weird symptoms when I first got her, ran a tick panel which was negative, so still may not be that out of bounds, will keep it on the list.

Lori, glad I mentioned the Advantix, I will hold off for sure. Frontline affected Indy, so I think I will just keep using the spray I've been using, and I have a shampoo that seems to work well, so will give her a bath this weekend. Should help for the next month.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275318
03/13/13 05:04 AM
03/13/13 05:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Lori, do Celo's seizures look like the seizures you usually see described, or are they more subtle?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275322
03/13/13 06:13 AM
03/13/13 06:13 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,875
Queensland. Australia
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel
bianca  Offline
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Queensland. Australia
Oh Lisa, that is scary with so many possibilities hugging I am hoping that the procedure on the 28th sheds some much needed light hugging


Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: bianca] #275330
03/13/13 08:53 AM
03/13/13 08:53 AM
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Posts: 456
3K9Mom Offline
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3K9Mom  Offline
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I saw fly biting. But what vet said is that often there are virtually undetectable signs of seizure, like flickering eyes, eyerolls, staring off into space, that sort of thing.

Once he said that, I recalled that at the surgeon's office, the techs would mention that sometimes, Celo "would get that look," and he would be kind of weird. They knew to stand by quietly for a minute or two and then he was fine; totally compliant, in fact.

I had always assumed he was being a little reactive and just didn't like a relative stranger startling him as they approachied his kennel (especially if he had been snoozing) too abruptly. I know he liked it there and adored the staff. He would start bellowing with excitement in the car as soon as I made the turn to the hospital, about 2 miles away. And he would happily trot off with them for treatment. So reactivity didn't completely make sense. But it's all I had to work with.

As soon as the neurologist said "staring off into space" (and I had already realized that he usually came out of his fly biting episodes anxious), it was like someone hit me over the head with a 2x4.

As we were working out the perfect dose if his meds, that's exactly what I saw in the early evenings (his seizure threshold drops tremendously when he's tired): staring off for a few seconds, followed by weird anxiety. Later in the evening, it's subtle fly biting. At night, fly biting that actually wakes him up. The frequency, intensity and duration were increasing at a frightening rate. (It seems like it came out of nowhere, but I wonder how long he was having smaller partial seizures and I was oblivious to what was going on.) I had another neurologist I totally trust and I planned to use, with an appointment scheduled. But my vet said I couldn't even wait to drive up there. I was given this referral. He fit me in asap, and I have been extremely happy with his care.

Between Celo's medicine and a good nap every day, we haven't seen any of that since about December.


And I watch him like a hawk, which you might find surprising. Or not. laugh

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa] #275334
03/13/13 10:47 AM
03/13/13 10:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,961
Ohio
PositiveDog Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PositiveDog  Offline
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Ohio
I was so hoping Jazzy's problems would be lessening as she grew.

I hope your vet has more concrete news after she is scoped. frown At least then you will know what you are dealing with and can make a good plan for her.

hugging


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: PositiveDog] #275336
03/13/13 10:52 AM
03/13/13 10:52 AM
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Posts: 5,439
Massachusetts
Braverhund Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Braverhund  Offline
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Lisa, I have no advice, simply good thoughts being sent for your darling sesame seed spunkette. wub May her health issues be something you can get a definitive diagnosis on, and a treatment plan that brings relief to you both! crossedfingers


Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
Smokey The TeddyLion, DLH purrbuddy

Dir gehört mein Herz
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: 3K9Mom] #275338
03/13/13 10:54 AM
03/13/13 10:54 AM
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Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Good_Karma  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Belfast, NY
What is fly biting?

Lisa, like Bianca I too hope that her procedure gives you some answers. Nothing is more frustrating than having a mystery illness (or several of them!).


Leah
Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: Good_Karma] #275350
03/13/13 12:54 PM
03/13/13 12:54 PM
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Posts: 11,674
Albuquerque, NM
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
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Albuquerque, NM
I think fly biting is random jaw snapping like at an imaginary fly? My Max did this. He also did the stare off into space stuff adn even sometimes forgot how to listen like he was in some zone somewhere. In 2003 the vet did not think this was random seizure disorder ( I did think it was) we did not do an MRI and he eventually kind of out grew it as he aged and calmed down.

I hope you can find some answers for Jazz.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
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