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Food Guarders - What method would you use? #276705
03/24/13 05:55 PM
03/24/13 05:55 PM
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Ohio
PositiveDog Offline OP
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OK, I've lost this twice trying to post it. So here is the short version.

I thought this would be a great conversation starter.

Have you ever had a dog that guards it's food or other resources? What did you try and how did it work out for you and the dog.

Here are two very different styles of training. One more closely fits what I would like to see happen and the other I find, well- abusive.


What do you think? Why?

Example One: Ok - not my style at all. Although I was cringing through most of the video, I had to laugh out loud at the statement "I didn't see that coming." Seriously?! The video is not full length, but it does tell how many minutes the actions took place.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dog+...&FORM=VIRE1

Example Two:

Granted, this will be ongoing training. But looking at the posture of this dog and the trainer, I am more confident this will go well. Watch the dog go from somewhat confused to expectant and more relaxed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjpP5EZC7HI


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: PositiveDog] #276717
03/24/13 06:36 PM
03/24/13 06:36 PM
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Posts: 824
SE WI
Lauri & the Gang Offline
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This is what I have used (successfully) and recommend to others:

http://www.rawdogranch.com/training/problems/foodguarding.html


Lauri & The Raw Fed Gang
Tazer HIC CGC Cocker
Winnie CGC - Corgi Mix
Chimanes Spice it Up Piquin (Kaynya) - Chinese Crested
Sasha - GSD mix
Nator von Triton HIC CGC (Mauser) - LC GSD
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Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: PositiveDog] #276719
03/24/13 07:03 PM
03/24/13 07:03 PM
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Posts: 2,160
West Bay RI
SunCzarina Offline
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The second is kinda what I did with Otto. He's almost 5, I still make him sit and give me a kiss before he gets a meal but I don't do the little bit at a time, make nice with Mommy thing anymore. I don't let the kids go jump around him while he's eating but occasionally they forget. Now he just looks at them, when he was younger, he would have growled.

It was so bad with Morgan I had to crate him for meals until she was no longer here. There was no telling her she couldn't give him the stink eye about his dinner and she would never back off if he growled at her. There weren't fights when he was clearly in the wrong but if she was wrong and tried to boss him, I was weeing myself pulling him off her.

The Cesar video is confrontational, a very aggressive stance over her food dish. I wouldn't label it abusive until he kicked her in the chest while she was nailing him. I was laughing waiting for her to do what Otto would have done, bite him in the junk for challenging him. Seriously, I would laugh my hiney off at the thought of Cesar Millan trying to get up in Otto's dinner dish like that.

We've conquered my dog's food aggression without being old school abusive. He's never bit anyone, probably because his growl makes everyone want to walk away and leave him alone. Just leave him alone and let him eat. I tell the kids that all the time, even when I'm cooking in my kitchen and he's eating, I talk to him, Otto, I need to get in the cabinet behind your butt. Otto I need to get to the stove. He knows I don't want his dinner and I'm not going to take it away so he moves.

My dad has those old school methods 'I'm the human, dog will submit to me' One time when I was 10 or 11 I watched him take off his belt and whip our shepherd with it after he dragged the dog home - the dog refused to come when he was called. That dog was headstrong but he'd do anything for me. I was a little girl and didn't think much of it philosophically but my father's strong arm methods taught me a lot about positive training, getting in the dog's head to get what you want from him.

Otto hates my father, wants him to leave because Dad's quick to yell at the kids (for nothing other than acting like kids). When Otto was a yearling and first met my parents, he was in that weird young shepherd place anyway so my father would look at him sternly and tell him to knock it off, and Dad wouldn't back off it. Morgan, Otto's mommy dearest, would lick his face and dance around infront of him trying tell him it's okay but it was never been okay for Otto. I doubt it ever will be okay with my father and Otto.

Otto won't even look at him without growling and Dad's tried to force himself on Otto. Dad's the only person who's ever pushed Otto past a growl, doesn't respect Otto's growl so subsequently, Otto's snap warned him - that's like a fake out I could bite you. So Otto spends a lot of time in his crate when my father's here...

I digressed but it's all part of the same kind of boss hog dog issues I deal with in Otto. Otto's a great dog and I wouldn't change a thing about him now. I'd change a lot of how my father deals with him but when they said you can't teach an old dog new tricks, they meant old MEN.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: Lauri & the Gang] #276728
03/24/13 08:06 PM
03/24/13 08:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Ohio
PositiveDog Offline OP
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Lauri, I like that link. Similar to the second video, but even more 'baby steps' which I like. Good foundations and all that. I am going to bookmark that one.

Jenn, I do think the CM video was abusive. His posture, lack of respect for the dog's space and non stop eye contact set the dog up to be fail and then he did not back down until things went further south. I think the dog tried to back off and was not allowed to do that as Cesar jut continued after him. I think the bite was fear, not aggression.


Last edited by PositiveDog; 03/24/13 08:10 PM.

Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: SunCzarina] #276729
03/24/13 08:07 PM
03/24/13 08:07 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Dog Whisperer my a$$, he has just made that situation worse.

embedding it for you Bonnie:



Perfect example of how dangerous his techniques are, particularly for the majority of people watching him.

The second clip, which is pretty clever with the food bowel - would hate to see this dog react to Cesar's technique.


Max was a food guarder when he got here, but not as major as this second clip. (Hard to tell the full extent in the first clip since the dog as been interfered with.) I first had to get him used to me being close, and would do that by tossing good food near the bowl when I got close. Then it went in the bowl. Then I was able to put my had in the bowl while adding to the food.

At some point, I added petting when he was eating. The last step was being able to take the food bowl away, which I did similar to Laurie's philosophy - it's easier to take away food when you are giving some food of greater value.

Being able to take away a raw bone that he was chewing one took a bit of work too, but we got there.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: MaxaLisa] #276731
03/24/13 08:15 PM
03/24/13 08:15 PM
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Ohio
PositiveDog Offline OP
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PositiveDog  Offline OP
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Thanks, Lisa. thumbup

I have not personally dealt with food aggression even though I have brought adult rescues into my home.

The personal stories are great and reinforces my belief in using positive and respectful techniques and building trust.

Last edited by PositiveDog; 03/24/13 08:16 PM.

Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: PositiveDog] #276732
03/24/13 08:21 PM
03/24/13 08:21 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: PositiveDog

Jenn, I do think the CM video was abusive. His posture, lack of respect for the dog's space and non stop eye contact set the dog up to be fail and then he did not back down until things went further south. I think the dog tried to back off and was not allowed to do that as Cesar jut continued after him.


I agree. I am not sure about the fear part, but wouldn't surprise me.

Some dogs have a greater sense of "fairness" than others, and are more willing to do something if they think things aren't "fair." LOL, I was a bit like this as a kid, and as I've grown up.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: MaxaLisa] #276755
03/24/13 10:08 PM
03/24/13 10:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,160
West Bay RI
SunCzarina Offline
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That labbie girl looks pretty confident about not wanting dude in her food. With Otto it was very confident 'This is mine' Most of the problem was caused by Morgan. Seemed to get in her head that Luther was senior dog to her and he had taken her food many times. So she was giving Otto the attitude that 'I'm the head dog now and I can take that if I want to.' She didn't really want it, she had zero food motivation, she just liked the idea of telling him she could take it if she wanted. No, no she wasn't going to take food from Otto.

What's interesting is they could take treats side by side and if she didn't catch hers because her eyes were going, he didn't reach right in and steal it. He'd look at her for approval, if you're not going to eat that, can I have it.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: SunCzarina] #276796
03/25/13 01:22 AM
03/25/13 01:22 AM
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Albuquerque, NM
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Kayos  Online Coffee

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I have only had one dog that guarded food and growled at me over the bowl. It was many years ago and I knocked him on his butt. It is all I knew to do. SInce them I always start my pups or new dogs with hand feeding and then graduate to the bowl and add good stuff as I walk by them. Then I reach out for the bowl while dropping better food in it. Then I take the bowl while feeding them better food. I do this off and on for the life of the dog.


Kathy

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Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: Kayos] #276811
03/25/13 02:43 AM
03/25/13 02:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
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West Bay RI
SunCzarina Offline
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Otto only growled at ME once, over his first bone and he was 3 1/2 or 4 months old. I took it away. My kids, only once and that was James, my oldest. James had given him his food and left the box on the floor next to the dish. I told him to pick it up and when he did, Otto grumbled at him. Scared my son and I never asked the kids to feed him after that.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: SunCzarina] #276848
03/25/13 01:41 PM
03/25/13 01:41 PM
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Albany NY
BasiaBear Offline
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Over the past year I have watched my roommates gradually turn Bubba into a resource guarder of his bones. He'd be minding his own business, enjoying his rawhide and either of the two roommates would often just take it away from him for no reason, often forcing him to do a slew of tricks- just spewing out commands that the dog didn't understand. And the ones he did understand, and comply with, were not rewarded but followed by even more commands that Bubba just didn't get. He eventually associated Joe and Dan approaching him with them revoking the bone for no good reason and confusing him, and as a result growl and snap. Once, Joe severely scolded him for this and banished him to the back yard. That drove him to be afraid to go out back. They had little understanding of how to effectively communicate with a dog and why their actions drove Bubba to growl and snap at them. All the while it was very clear to me what was happening and I would try my best to explain to them how Bubba perceives these situations.

Even though his owner didn't really care to 'get it', I continually worked with Bubba to attenuate his guarding (and make him not afraid of the back yard anymore). I started by simply approaching and walking away until approaching didn't mean something bad to him. Gradually worked up to sitting next to him, then stroking him, and walking away, never eyeing or minding the bone at all. It was very easy for me to do because I was never one to take it from him anyway. So as a result, he doesn't guard against me at all, I can even take things from him without a problem, but he does still guard with Joe and Dan, but not as much.


Danielle
~Basia
~Amadeus
Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: SunCzarina] #276860
03/25/13 03:23 PM
03/25/13 03:23 PM
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Michigan
dano Offline
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Ceasar is such an maroon, love that video!

I had one pup who was cool until a meaty bone was being guarded,
and I fixed it by preparing for it doning gloves and jean sleeves, and
executed the dreaded alpha-roll 3 times, and then made sure my wife
and adult kids were also able to have it surrendered.

I ain't proud of old school ways before new school ways were learned,
but it extinguished the misbehavior quickly and forever. The way I figured
it at the time was fix it now, he's only going to get bigger. He screamed,
he kicked, it wasn't pretty, but 15 minutes later was a new now, with an understanding what was and what wasn't going to be.

Simply controlling resources is simpler, and over more time works.

Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: dano] #276865
03/25/13 03:55 PM
03/25/13 03:55 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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frown


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: MaxaLisa] #276882
03/25/13 04:43 PM
03/25/13 04:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,961
Ohio
PositiveDog Offline OP
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PositiveDog  Offline OP
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Quote:
Simply controlling resources is simpler, and over more time works.


Yes, I would hope that would be the way you would choose now. I like to train for the long haul, so I have no problem taking longer to actually teach the dog.

Some people have made me do things in my life and other people have given me information that actually allowed me to make good choices.

As an adult, I have no friends in the first group, but have many in the latter one. Sadly, dogs can't just walk away so it is up to us to choose more respectful and humane methods.

I am enjoying reading the responses. While I am saddened by the choices using force or dominance, it is good to read and learn more about the various positive ways used to control the resources or change the environment to get the results needed.


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Food Guarders - What method would you use? [Re: PositiveDog] #276885
03/25/13 04:49 PM
03/25/13 04:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
Barb E Offline
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Very interesting topic

I have a friend with a Catahoula Leopard Dog who I saw behaving like that Lab this past Thanksgiving.

I had never seen anything like it in real life and it was very scary!!

The dog had a rawhide and one of the guests didn't know the "don't touch this dog when it has something" rule and reached out to pet him. Patch turned and bit, no warning. It was then my friend's job to get that rawhide from Patch - she worked with a trainer though I'm thinking it was more Cesar style - and she grabbed a tennis racket and eventually got it from him after much snarling and biting the racket. I simply stood on the stairs with my mouth hanging open - I had no idea of how to help or what to do.

I do know that when Patch was just a puppy he growled at her when she reached for a toy and the "breeder" had told her to alpha roll when ever that happened.

Of course where my friend really failed at that dinner party was having the dog loose in the house when there were guests over.


Dante - March 8, 2004 - May 06, 2017
Kaos von Wolfstraum - Oct 31, 2011

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