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The DM test(s) #276214
03/20/13 02:24 AM
03/20/13 02:24 AM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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I went back and looked at stickies and have to say I am always really "thick" on this subject and the tests.

I know someone looking/trying to confirm/not DM in a GSD.

I am trying to be as simple as possible in my questions to drill down to what I really am trying to find out.

1. Is there more than 1 test?

2. If so, which is the "GSD" test?

3. If there isn't a "GSD" test what do people do - is the other test accurate at all in any way?

I think that's it? Feel free to add any other information you'd like about testing/diagnosis, but those questions are the ones I need answered. (Pushy, huh?) Like I said, this is something I am fuzzy on so hoping I am asking the right questions the right way.

Thanks!

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #276216
03/20/13 02:41 AM
03/20/13 02:41 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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1. Is there more than 1 test?
I believe that there is currently only one test availaable, which is the "generic" (AKC?) test.

2. If so, which is the "GSD" test?
It used to be Dr. Clemmons' test, which is no longer available due to lack of funding frown

3. If there isn't a "GSD" test what do people do - is the other test accurate at all in any way?
I believe "clear" GSDs have had DM. While a clear on the test may actually mean clear for the generic DM, I don't think it says much about GSD DM.


MJ may have more to add.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #276218
03/20/13 02:47 AM
03/20/13 02:47 AM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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Is the AKC/OFA test the "Corgi" test? Sorry to use so many " " but it's an annoying thing - I did go to Marjorie's page for some information, too.

Thanks!

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #276219
03/20/13 02:52 AM
03/20/13 02:52 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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That's my understanding, the "generic" test is the Corgi test. When validating the test, they used a lot of corgis, very few GSDs. I would have to review the info to say 100%, but I'm 90% sure this is the case.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #276222
03/20/13 02:58 AM
03/20/13 02:58 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Maybe 95%.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #276223
03/20/13 02:59 AM
03/20/13 02:59 AM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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Of the dogs tested were Corgis? That's just so odd.

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #276225
03/20/13 03:02 AM
03/20/13 03:02 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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More than just corgi's - I think there were about 5 breeds focused on, non of which were GSDs. Corgi's are often used as the "poster ppup" for this disease in AKC circles, from my understanding. This was the big political issue, and then they claimed this was also GSD DM. They have softened that a bit, probablu due to marjorie's good work.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #276226
03/20/13 03:08 AM
03/20/13 03:08 AM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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I say odd when I want to use other words that I should not. And I will say, huh, that is definitely odd.

I was talking to a lady this weekend at the flyball thing and she was telling me about her DM GSD. She pointed to a tiny little dog and said how much easier it would be if they were that sized - it's true - it wouldn't be a good thing for the dog, but what a huge difference if you could pick them up and move them around. frown

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #276227
03/20/13 03:14 AM
03/20/13 03:14 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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The size thing *is* a problem. When Max came down with pine issues (not DM!), I worried about being able to help him. With indy, when he was paralyzed, at least I could move her.

GSD DM should be studied properly - I hate this political crap - doesn't take much to look at the evidence and see the holes in the logic frown


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #276229
03/20/13 03:17 AM
03/20/13 03:17 AM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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Yes, the size thing is huge. Weight as well as length and needing to try to support that whole long body...yikes. frown

I agree. I wish there was money to do it independently.

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #276265
03/20/13 03:12 PM
03/20/13 03:12 PM
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Mary Jane Online content
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I will try to summarize the large scale genetic studies that I understand pretty well and then indicate my uncertainties. The study that the AKC uses is based on an unbiased mapping of cases versus genes in 62 DM+ dogs of which 35 were Pembroke Welsh Corgis and 4 were GSD (and there were 3 other strains). The excitement about the findings, I believe, were based on the gene identified: superoxide dismutase, that is mutated in some cases of human amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, and also intentionally mutated in a mouse model of ALS.

For me, the best evidence that the SOD mutation is important in GSD DM was an independent study from 2012 that mapped several diseases only in GSD and the only association they found for DM was an area including SOD (I should check that again). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3509149/

My own problem with the first 'generic' study is that it is based on case reports, like in people. Vets report patients with DM, some did not perform necroscopy, so you depend upon uniformity in vets in what they diagnose. That could be hard without necroscopy. You just have to wonder whether there is more than one disease out there.

The Clemmons marker that was published involved a specific antibody, an autoimmune reaction, I believe. People trying to reproduce the findings failed.

Anybody still here? smile

MJ

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: Mary Jane] #276270
03/20/13 04:07 PM
03/20/13 04:07 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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paranoid2 Yes? Sort of?

So study 1 was based on case reports and may have included things that were not DM (spinal stuff as an example or bad infections like with Nina that one time). But it found this SOD thing. Which seemed like ALS.

Then there was another study - of many disease using GSDs only and I am not sure I understand that study at all!

Then, no one has been able to replicate Clemmons findings - is that unusual, not being a scientist it sounds like it, but that's because my skills are in sitting and nodding. laugh

Finally - does any of this indicate a degree of accuracy in any of the DM tests, and I am guessing the only currently available one which is the Missouri/OFFA one?

Thanks!

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #276275
03/20/13 05:00 PM
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Mary Jane Online content
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
....
Finally - does any of this indicate a degree of accuracy in any of the DM tests....?



Your words are well chosen "degree of accuracy". The info at OFFA/ U MO indicates that of 100s of dogs they tested only 2 with N/N results developed DM AND that there is evidence that there are other causes of DM in some breeds. Also some clinically normal dogs score A/A, at risk. The SOD change may predispose but not guarantee DM. So the test is not perfectly accurate and the only way to know how accurate it is, is to screen more dogs and determine the incidence of disease in normal, carrier, and at risk groups.

For the other potential causes of DM, no DNA markers were present in the 15 DM+ dogs in the paper linked.

I wish I knew more,

MJ

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: Mary Jane] #276378
03/21/13 05:07 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Thanks MJ!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #277024
03/26/13 01:35 PM
03/26/13 01:35 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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Thanks to you both! I guess it makes sense that if there is still no real test for MS in people (I don't believe that it is yet definitive though MRIs can help?) that it would be difficult to have one for dogs.

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #277127
03/27/13 02:34 AM
03/27/13 02:34 AM
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SunCzarina Offline
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Morgan was diagnosed with range of motion exercises at the vets office and the toe knuckle under test.

I was told that the genetic test could only tell me if she carries the genetic markers for DM but it couldn't tell me if it was affecting her. Basically don't waste your money, she has all the markers in a physical exam.

Postmortem testing/analysis was never discussed. Would have caused cognitive dissonance - I'd want to help study it to maybe help other dogs but the thought of removing my -I can't even type it or think it.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: SunCzarina] #277128
03/27/13 02:54 AM
03/27/13 02:54 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Indy knuckled under her back paw. I'm sure she didn't have DM.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: The DM test(s) [Re: MaxaLisa] #277335
03/28/13 12:49 AM
03/28/13 12:49 AM
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SunCzarina Offline
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no, you curl the toes under on one the back feet and see how long it takes for them to notice. Near the end, Morgan wouldn't notice.

Last summer was terrible, she had to wear medical tape on a couple of her toes because she'd worn the nails down to nothing on the outer toe and the way she walked, she'd catch the toe with the nail on her middle toe. Not that she cared, right up until the last month she'd sing and fidget while I put her boots on, spring out the door then insist she walked on grass, keep right up with Otto if I let her.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: The DM test(s) [Re: SunCzarina] #277374
03/28/13 03:44 AM
03/28/13 03:44 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
no, you curl the toes under on one the back feet and see how long it takes for them to notice.

Oops, that's what I meant, I just didn't say it well. There are so many reasons for knuckling, I hate it when vets immediately proclaim DM.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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