Well Deno, they say there is no one more zealous than the converted. I began my adventure in dog ownership armed with all the information I could gather from sources like Cesar Milan and the Monks of New Skete. I read all of Milan's books as well as a DVD set of a training seminar he put on. I knew I was getting a breed that needed firm leadership and at times, it seemed like also my dog would need a heavy hand to prevent it from taking control and becoming a menace.

So I spent much longer than I care to admit viewing all of my dog's behavior through the lens of pack hierarchy. I analyzed each behavior under the question of "Does this undermine my authority?" And then when behaviors like pulling on leash would arise, I took it as a deliberate attack on my status as leader. I felt that if my dogs had the proper amount of respect for me, they would not pull on the leash. That feeling dictated my response to the unwanted behavior, and I am not at all proud of the things I did to try to re establish my dominance in our relationship.

Once I realized that there was a completely different way to view my relationship with my dogs, it was as if an enormous burden had been lifted from me. By no longer seeing an unwanted behavior as a personal affront, I can respond to the situation with less of an emotional and knee jerk response. And even the behaviors that I enjoy are seen differently. The way both my dogs like to lean against me, I don't have to view that as a play for dominance and instead I can see it as a sign of affection or comfort-seeking.

I don't pretend to have it all figured out. I am always open to new ideas and scientific study. I think we have come a very long way in the past 150 years as far as how we treat all animals, and I hope to be around to see the changes that happen in the next 50 years. The most important thing is to not allow yourself to set your beliefs in stone. I have changed my mind about dog-human relationships once already and do not doubt there may come a time when I reevaluate again.

Johanna, the three books I have read recently are:

How the Dog Became the Dog: From Wolves to Our Best Friends by Mark Derr
The Genius of Dogs: How Dogs Are Smarter than You Think by Brian Hare
Dog Sense: How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You a Better Friend to Your Pet by John Bradshaw

I think it was Dog Sense that talked about the behavior of feral dog packs, but I read them one right after the other and I may not be right in my guess.

Thanks for the information, LEah.

interesting thread:)

Just wanted to comment on the 'alpha smalpha' mentality. True alpha's don't have to flaunt their 'alpha-ness" it's unspoken.

One doesn't need to walk around acting all "alpha-y":)

I believe if one builds a true bond/relationship from the very start w/puppy(dog), are fair in what is expected and not expected, you will end up with a dog that's easy to train, biddable and everything else falls into place.

For me, I think the whole 'alpha' thing is just over used and over rated:)

**Good posts Leah:)

Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution by Ray and Laura Coppinger is also a great book to read regarding the origin of dogs and how they live in social groups.

I, too, used to believe in alpha theory. I wanted Ris to do what I said because I was in charge. I ate first. I exited doors first. If she wanted petting, she had to do something to earn it. If she wanted to go that way I turned and went the opposite way because she had to learn to follow me. I was in charge and her desires were secondary. It put us in constant conflict and, I hate to say it, but those were not happy times for us.

Once I got over the idea that I needed to be alpha, things started to go much better. She learned to trust me and follow my guidance because I learned to listen to her. It wasn't just about what I wanted; it was about communication between the two of us. We became a partnership rather than a dictatorship.

I honestly hate when people attribute behavior to dominance or submission. If you watched Risa around other dogs, you might consider her dominant. She is a resource guarder and reactively barks and lunges at other dogs. Many people would call those behaviors dominant. I call them fear. An "alpha" doesn't need to assert himself nor does he fear to lose that which he possesses. He is confident he could have it back if he wanted it. Fearful dogs act like Risa does. If you attribute behaviors like that to dominance and correct them trying to 'put a dog in its place,' you've totally missed the point and have potentially caused some serious negative fallout.

David Mech, the biologist who initially observed wolves and popularized the notion that there are alphas and omegas, etc. in wolf packs has also changed his mind about his initial study. He's re-evaluated how wolves really live; it's much more like a parent/child relationship than that of one out to be on top and rule over all with an iron paw. Alpha theory is out.

Jamie, I am putting that book suggestion on hold at my library!

I also find the parent/child relationship idea incredibly appealing. In fact my husband characterized it in that exact terminology once we realized that the pack hierarchy mentality was not working for us.

I once shared a house with a friend of mine, We had 6 dogs between us. A GSD, a GSD mix, an Aussie, a Golden Retriever, and 2 Miniature Schnauzers, a father and son. Care to take a guess who was the "dominant" dog in the pack?
I'll give you a hint - it wasn't any of the big dogs.[/quote]


Those must have been some really mixed up big dogs.

You miss the point. It isn't the size that is the determinant but the personality. And as a whole, we had a very well behaved and well integrated family of dogs. And none of the dogs, regardless of size, were "mixed up".

David Mech by no means does away with the Alpha theory.

He makes my point to a tee.

He has just renamed it with either the breeding male or female or the

mother or father, he says that in the wild there may be more than one of

either and they don't necessarily get there by fighting but by breeding. He

states that in an artificial pack there will be an Alpha male and or female

with a pecking order in the pack.

When dogs live with humans, this is an artificial pack.

I rest my case, if this is the man you base yours on.

Leah, my ideas are not set in stone, I am always up for what works.

I have one of the happiest and most well behaved dogs you will ever see.

He loves life and everyone and everything in it, he seems to live to please me.

I love this dog more than I can explain in words.

I would be willing to bet that Dex is better trained than your dog or

95% of the dogs on this site. I work with him almost every day, and he is

tight. You may argue with my methods but my results are solid and sound.

How many people can say they have their dog under control 98% of the time?

Not many.

this is a freaking ridiculus statement you just made here... means you have NOTHING!

Except you completely forget that dogs are not wolves nor do they see humans as members of their pack. Dogs aren't stupid. They know we're not the same species.

Honestly, you (nor anyone else on this site) can know how well-trained the dogs of the board members are. Granted, many of us have proven our dogs' abilities in the show ring and have titles to show for it. It's still not proof of day-to-day life nor is it simple to compare the skills required to earn one title compared to another.

If you're happy with what you're doing, then fine. Keep at it. I've found that, even if I don't always agree with someone else's methods, it benefits me to keep an open mind. After all, I might find out something new that totally changes my relationship with my dog for the better.

I guess I've been lucky with some of the dogs I've had..I don't want 98%, I want 99.9%. It wasn't about 'control' or 'smalpha-ing', it was about having a good relationship/bond, making myself the center of their universe:)

I also agree if your happy with what your doing that's fine, but it's rather egotistical to say your dog is better trained than others on this board since you probably haven't met one person's dog(s) from this board:)

When did this turn into a competition about who had the better trained dog? I lay no claim to my training prowess. And I don't doubt you love your dogs very much Deno, and that they are well behaved. I am not sure how you decided I was implying anything even close to that.

The main reason that people keep coming back to this thread is to counter the misinformation you are giving out. Dominance theory has been discounted, repeatedly, by multiple prominent figures in the canine behavior field. Leave the wolves out of it, they have no bearing on dog behavior. That is like using Neanderthal behavior to explain modern human behavior. Yes there is some overlap but hardly the best source of information.

Bravo for having such a great dog, truly. It sounds like you have a close bond and that is a blessed thing. Could you have gotten there without relying on pack hierarchy training?

The other thing is that many of us on this thread have been training dogs for a long time. Speaking for myself, I was all about the dominance theory, alpha business when I first learned dog training. And now I've learned some different ways to train and I realize there are other approaches that work better and that are healthier for the dog/human relationship.

We both know you know better.

98% is not perfection, but it is quite a bit more than most have.

Dex is just over a year old and he still has a lot of pup in him.

We will get there while most won't even get close due to lack of knowledge or lazyness.

No brag, just fact.

I really don't think I would have the control over my dogs that I have without
being as Lew Burke put it "their true pack Leader"

It has worked great for me.

There's a lot to be said for being the dog's mommy. Wen we first moved here one of the neighbor kids commented that I treat my dogs like children, I never thought too much about it, just treat my dogs like my mother treated our dogs. I'm a 100lb woman, I'm not going to control an 85lb german shepherd by force alone. He has to want to do it. I know how to cook the bacon so he does.

So my alpha theory comes down to one word.

Food.

Where does it come from dog, who puts it in your bowl after you sit and give me a polite and thankful kiss?

I have a good dog, he means well, he's not at all aggressive, most of the time he does what he's told and he's HAPPY, he's a friend, he's one of my favorite children. I trust his instincts and he trusts I'll give him some bacon.

ps to Leah,

Was it you who posted that video on FB about how bad trainers build drive? That was hilarious.

You mean this video, Jen?



Love Susan Garrett!

something about this thread reminds me of that