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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Kayos] #249899
08/28/12 08:20 PM
08/28/12 08:20 PM
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Belfast, NY
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When we went to pick out our puppy from the breeder's litter (there were only two puppies to choose from, both males) there was a definite difference in behaviors between them.

One puppy wasn't all that interested in interacting/meeting us and wanted to wander off and explore the world, although he didn't mind the breeder's teenaged daughter picking him up and loving on him (like, the entire time!! I mean, hello, we'd like a chance too, us-the potential buyers!).

The other puppy spent the whole visit trying to avoid the breeder's four year old son (who seemed to want to gouge out the poor thing's eyes frown ) and in fact ended up sheltered under my legs as I was squatted down in the grass. I though "Awwwwww!!! He's a little love bug and he LIKES me!!" laugh

Guess which puppy we came home with? whistling So Niko was kind of a scared-y dog right from the beginning. frown We just didn't know what we were looking at when we saw his behavior. We interpreted it a totally different way, as in this pup here (cowering under me lol) is people oriented whereas the exploring pup is not.


Leah
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Kayos] #261844
11/26/12 09:34 PM
11/26/12 09:34 PM
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shelle Offline
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I am a believer in our dogs are the result in nature plus nurture.
I have met pet/show and working line GSDs, and they look and handle very differently. That's genes.
But there is also neurochemistry to add to this mix. And that is where genetic research is heading for me. ie. a pups central nervous system is exposed to high levels of cortisol (stress neurotransmitter) in the pregnant dam. The pups central nervous system continues to develop past birth. But if the cortisol hormone for stress is required to survive, these levels become fixed as a baseline.
So the dogs resting arousal state is elevated. Anxious. and you see separation anxiety and other anxious behaviours.

I think that nature, extends far further than we origninally gave it credit. Past the birth into the early life stages.

That nature, can and does affect the make up of the dog, permanently, past the point of the pup being born.

Last edited by shelle; 11/26/12 09:35 PM.
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: shelle] #261872
11/26/12 11:15 PM
11/26/12 11:15 PM
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I totally think its both. If a first timer got Akbar, he would have turned into a scary dog. He's a strong headed dog who will take charge if no boundries are given. He's a make me dog and will walk all over anybody if he was not given good handling. He absolutely loves and respects me but hand the leash to my mom and he gives her the bird, lol. I've done a lot of training with Akbar and he's grown into a well respected adult who's calm and listens to my commands, unless he sees a cat..haha. Akbar will never be a social butterfly like isa but he's turned into my greatest friend and protector. We go everywhere together. smile although in crowds line the Saturday market he's mister pet me lol.
Then there's my beloved Cody who past away in April. He came from bybreeding. No person unless they knew him in person knew he was a nervous dog. He was nervous when people would try to pet him. He was my first dog and I went through MANY ups and downs with him. Around when he hit 8 months he started acting shy around men mostly. It took a year to get him to stand still for the stand for exam. I worked so hard with him, I was also in 4h dogs, that I got his BH at 2, and then his CGC, CD in3 shows with scores like196 RE at 5?, and HIC. But even with all his training he would still behave shy outside of the ring. In the ring you wouldn't have known. When he hit about 6 1/2 he started behaving nervous towards loud sounds.. not sure what went there. But in the home he was fine, I mean I could take him to events and he was fine but all the training in the world wouldn't have changed him.
Isa is my perfect child. Fine with anything, people, kids, wheelchairs, gun shots, people stepping on her tail(has happened a lot) anything. Also why she's a therapy dog. I see her mom once a months at my work. smile


Akbar RN CGC 8
Isa BH CD RAE CGC TDI 12

Cody RIP 2003-2012
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #274312
03/06/13 02:00 AM
03/06/13 02:00 AM
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Fern Creek Ky
Deno Offline
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It's just common sense, it's all in how you raise them. Just say you have 2 dogs at the opposite end of the spectrum. One smart and the other not so much.

You have what you have with nature.

Either way, the way they are raised has the greatest affect on the dog. Stern and loving guidence will make a better dog than one raised by a fool.

I am not calling anyone a fool, I'm just using that for a good example.

Deno

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #274386
03/06/13 03:51 PM
03/06/13 03:51 PM
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Michigan, USA
Chris Wild Offline
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Environment cannot change genetics. Certainly how a dog is raised and trained has some impact, but only in the outward behavioral expression of traits. It cannot change the dog, and even how much and what form of influence environment can have over any individual trait is also determined by genetics. A good, solid dog will not be ruined by bad environment. And a poorly temperamented dog cannot be fixed by a good environment. If a dog is genetically weak nerved, it will always be so. Confidence can be built and the dog can be taught more adaptive coping mechanisms for dealing with stress, but it will always be stressed by things that a solid dog would not be bothered by. A dog who is genetically dog aggressive will always be so. It can be taught to inhibit it's reactions and not act on those impulses, but the underlying cause will never go away and the dog will never be 100% reliable around other dogs. Those are just two examples, but the same holds true for everything.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild] #274394
03/06/13 04:08 PM
03/06/13 04:08 PM
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Belfast, NY
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I think people who feel that a dog's temperament is solely based on how the dog is raised have perhaps never tried to raise a dog of fundamentally unsound temperament. I know that if my only experience was with well-adjusted dogs, I would assume it was my skills as a dog owner than made it be so.


Leah
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild] #274432
03/06/13 10:02 PM
03/06/13 10:02 PM
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Fern Creek Ky
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It's just common sense, say you have two genetically similar dogs.

One dog is used as bait for pit bulls and the other is in a loving

home. There will be a vast difference in the two.

A good dog can be ruined by a not so smart owner.

A bad dog can be helped by a smart owner.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma] #274477
03/07/13 10:19 AM
03/07/13 10:19 AM
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Northern CA
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Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
I think people who feel that a dog's temperament is solely based on how the dog is raised have perhaps never tried to raise a dog of fundamentally unsound temperament. I know that if my only experience was with well-adjusted dogs, I would assume it was my skills as a dog owner than made it be so.


Leah, how true.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #274487
03/07/13 11:49 AM
03/07/13 11:49 AM
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Belfast, NY
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Originally Posted By: Deno


A good dog can be ruined by a not so smart owner.

A bad dog can be helped by a smart owner.


I don't disagree with these statements, however I don't think things are as cut and dried as you put it. A good dog can certainly be stressed out by and learn bad behaviors from a poor handler. But if he has a well adjusted base line of temperament, changing the training and lifestyle can help let his "inner good dog" out. How else can you explain how so many of Michael Vick's bait dogs were rehabilitated and found homes? These were basically really good dogs who had been mistreated, but rebounded and became well socialized and ready for placement after being shown that they could trust and love humans.

And a "bad dog" can most definitely be helped by a wise handler, but only to a point. And in many cases, a fearful dog will always hold onto his fears, but will have been trained not to show reactions. That fear still exists, but not the evidence of it. Does that make him a good dog? I don't think so, because that fear still exists and that dog can never be fully trusted. He will always and forever need management and constant reinforcement of his training.


Leah
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma] #274501
03/07/13 02:34 PM
03/07/13 02:34 PM
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Michigan, USA
Chris Wild Offline
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Great post, Leah! thumbup

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild] #274506
03/07/13 03:12 PM
03/07/13 03:12 PM
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Massachusetts
PaddyD Offline
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How about the terms: sound and unsound as opposed to good and bad.
Unsound dogs can be problematic but that doesn't make them 'bad'.
If a sound dog is trained to do 'bad' things is s/he still 'good'?


Pat
=====================
Abby - GSD - 7/4/2009
=====================


Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: shelle] #274508
03/07/13 03:20 PM
03/07/13 03:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
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Massachusetts
PaddyD Offline
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Nature versus nurture.
I agree with the idea that nature greatly overpowers nurture, though not completely.
Humans have the benefit of self-evaluation and a greater capacity to overcome their nature than animals(dogs here).
I am one of 11 siblings and some of us were talking about that and (humorously) wondering whether we have all that much free will since we are so guided by our nature to behave in certain ways.


Pat
=====================
Abby - GSD - 7/4/2009
=====================


Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: PaddyD] #274511
03/07/13 03:35 PM
03/07/13 03:35 PM
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I believe in the in combo of the two.

Like people, dogs are born with certain core personalities and traits. And like people, other parts of their behavior can be influenced by their environment. Like how they might react to a certain stimuli, overall distrust of people and can be trained for a reaction. Whereas other traits are just genetic-overall fearfulness, drive, skills/talents, stubborness.

I think where this saying comes from is a defense in regard to bully breeds or breeds seen as "aggressive." That a dog wouldn't necessarily go out and attack a person unless raised in an environment that would make them more prone to do so. It helps defend the breed, which is good and "mostly" true.


Tiffany mom to:
Anna, GSD 9/21/08
Panzer, GSD 9/12/15
Duncan Dog RIP 2/99-10/15
Danger Kitties: Mia & Winston RIP Alley Cat 10/12, Simon 6/13
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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma] #274572
03/08/13 01:08 AM
03/08/13 01:08 AM
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Fern Creek Ky
Deno Offline
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Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
Originally Posted By: Deno


A good dog can be ruined by a not so smart owner.

A bad dog can be helped by a smart owner.


I don't disagree with these statements, however I don't think things are as cut and dried as you put it. A good dog can certainly be stressed out by and learn bad behaviors from a poor handler. But if he has a well adjusted base line of temperament, changing the training and lifestyle can help let his "inner good dog" out. How else can you explain how so many of Michael Vick's bait dogs were rehabilitated and found homes? These were basically really good dogs who had been mistreated, but rebounded and became well socialized and ready for placement after being shown that they could trust and love humans.

And a "bad dog" can most definitely be helped by a wise handler, but only to a point. And in many cases, a fearful dog will always hold onto his fears, but will have been trained not to show reactions. That fear still exists, but not the evidence of it. Does that make him a good dog? I don't think so, because that fear still exists and that dog can never be fully trusted. He will always and forever need management and constant reinforcement of his training.


When I say raise them, that isn't limited to when they were puppys or whatever. The people who rehabilitated vick's dogs made the change, not nature. If left alone, they would have remained messed up.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #274643
03/08/13 03:11 PM
03/08/13 03:11 PM
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Michigan, USA
Chris Wild Offline
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Originally Posted By: Deno
The people who rehabilitated vick's dogs made the change, not nature. If left alone, they would have remained messed up.


But nature allowed it.
They would not have been able to make those changes if the dogs had not been fundamentally sound genetically. If they had not, if their *nature* had been different, no changes would have been able to be made no matter how hard anyone tried.

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