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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Hatterasser] #275650
03/15/13 09:35 PM
03/15/13 09:35 PM
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Outer Banks, NC
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Quote:
Is this genetic thing only applicable to dogs?

Or is it true throught out nature? Say humans for example.

If you were to talk about people like this, again, some might consider it bigoted.


To quote myself:
Quote:
I look at my dogs as children from the same family, raised the same way by the same loving people. One may grow up to be a social worker, caring about all of humanity. One may grow up to be an alcoholic and a bum. And one may grow up to be a murderer. How can that happen? Yet it does.


Have you any siblings? Were you all raised by the same parents?
Have you noticed any disparities in all your personalities. There is no bigotry involved in this; there is only genetic differences, possibly passed down through generations. I know there are very obvious diversities between my brothers and me. Some might ask this very question; "Were we raised by the same parents?" We are so different (though none of us has graduated to the level of murder...yet *laughing*).

In the case of dogs, even from the same litter, there can be variations in personality and behavior. Add that thought to rescue dogs, where their breeding (nature=genetics) and their pasts (nurture=training) are usually unknown, and even though currently being raised in the same household they will exhibit completely individual and unique behaviors. Rescuing, though a noble thing to do, opens a door to virtually unknown and unlimited varieties of critters. One can only do the best one can.

I have to agree that you have been very blessed in having only owned dogs with sound genetic backgrounds. You are extremely fortunate. I'm glad Lexie is doing so well for you.


Diane...Freya's mom
If I weren't so damn healthy, I'd be sick...and I'm NOT sick.
Life is good! Live it to the fullest. Love well those near and dear.
I Aear cân ven na mar
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild] #275686
03/16/13 03:50 AM
03/16/13 03:50 AM
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Fern Creek Ky
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Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
The higher the intelligence and reasoning skills, the greater the ability to move away from genetic predispositions. Humans can self analyze and make conscious choices when it comes to personality and behavior. Animals cannot so are more at the mercy of their genetics.


With this logic it would stand to reason that humans with all their intelligence could somewhat shape a dog, maybe not all dogs, but surely most.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #275687
03/16/13 04:01 AM
03/16/13 04:01 AM
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Northern CA
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Of course we shape dogs (that is the nurture part), but we cannot redefine who they fundamentally are (that's the nature part).


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma] #275689
03/16/13 04:27 AM
03/16/13 04:27 AM
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Fern Creek Ky
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Leah, no need to get all worked up, I just said some may see it as bigoted
when you assign certain traits to certain breeds. This can't even be debated as it is a fact.

Your link about alcoholism running in families is debatable and far from conclusive. Some old timers might even say studies like this are just an excuse.

I would like to say it was my expertise in picking dogs but this isn't the case, and I have always violated the rule of not buying from a back yard breeder.

It may very well be just dumb luck that I have always ended up with handsome and trainable dogs.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Schnickle Fritz] #275690
03/16/13 04:36 AM
03/16/13 04:36 AM
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Fern Creek Ky
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Originally Posted By: Schnickle Fritz
Quote:
I don't think the word bigoted needs to come into play in this discussion at all. I am a bit confused as to why you would bring it up.
-- i was thinking this , too...



It's not hard to understand when read in context.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #275691
03/16/13 04:42 AM
03/16/13 04:42 AM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: Deno
Leah, no need to get all worked up, I just said some may see it as bigoted
when you assign certain traits to certain breeds. This can't even be debated as it is a fact.


Well, see, this previous reference wasn't to breed traits, this was about general genetic influence on behaviour and personality.

If you yourself were thinking breed traits but didn't articulate, then we don't have a human equivalent, as far as I know. I have yet to see a human breeding program that has been prolonged and sustained, that breeds for things like hair color, posture, etc.


Last edited by MaxaLisa; 03/16/13 05:31 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Hatterasser] #275692
03/16/13 04:53 AM
03/16/13 04:53 AM
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Fern Creek Ky
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All I am saying Hatterasser is that what ever nature gives us in a dog, a knowledgeable and loving owner can make some kind of a difference.

Thanks for your comment on Lexie and good luck to you and your dogs.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #275694
03/16/13 05:33 AM
03/16/13 05:33 AM
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Northern CA
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Originally Posted By: Deno
All I am saying Hatterasser is that what ever nature gives us in a dog, a knowledgeable and loving owner can make some kind of a difference.


Yes, this is exactly what most of us have been saying from the beginning.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: MaxaLisa] #275720
03/16/13 03:02 PM
03/16/13 03:02 PM
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Portland, Oregon
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Originally Posted By: Deno
All I am saying Hatterasser is that what ever nature gives us in a dog, a knowledgeable and loving owner can make some kind of a difference.


Yes, this is exactly what most of us have been saying from the beginning.


Yes!

We can't take a geneticly temperamental nerve-bag and make that dog a great LE K9.
We can perhaps though, take that same dog and make it a great pet...with the right training methods,the right owner and trainer! Which smile probably wouldn't be me!!


Dante - March 8, 2004 - May 06, 2017
Kaos von Wolfstraum - Oct 31, 2011

My Blog: https://barbrambling.wordpress.com/
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #275730
03/16/13 04:41 PM
03/16/13 04:41 PM
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Belfast, NY
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Originally Posted By: Deno
Leah, no need to get all worked up, I just said some may see it as bigoted
when you assign certain traits to certain breeds. This can't even be debated as it is a fact.

Your link about alcoholism running in families is debatable and far from conclusive. Some old timers might even say studies like this are just an excuse.

I would like to say it was my expertise in picking dogs but this isn't the case, and I have always violated the rule of not buying from a back yard breeder.

It may very well be just dumb luck that I have always ended up with handsome and trainable dogs.




Don't worry Deno, nothing you say is going to get me worked up wink I just am a bit of a stickler for words and their usage and connotations. To use a word like bigot or racist in a thread where we are discussing human and canine genetic traits struck me as inappropriate in this context. I would not want anyone reading this thread to get the wrong impression.

You can certainly explore the many studies done on alcoholism and heritability (or dismiss them entirely and go with your own personal beliefs, I like to call those "heart facts" smile ). The link I posted was just one of dozens I found in a quick search. Perhaps it is my own scientific background coloring my viewpoint, but I tend to respect the studies done by researchers (in the human and canine fields) much more so than the experiences of one person (even if that person is myself!).


Leah
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #275738
03/16/13 07:37 PM
03/16/13 07:37 PM
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Outer Banks, NC
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Originally Posted By: Deno
All I am saying Hatterasser is that what ever nature gives us in a dog, a knowledgeable and loving owner can make some kind of a difference.

Thanks for your comment on Lexie and good luck to you and your dogs.


And the key word here, Deno, is SOME. We can make SOME changes but as I've said, often times those changes are unpredictable. If genetically our dog has a weakness or is 'unsound' in a given area, it is possible that, given the right trigger and our failure in the moment to notice that the trigger has taken place, our dog will react instinctively as opposed to the training we've spent so much time giving.

In a dog like Thor, for example, I did the right things. Took him to OB training, socialized him, practiced NILIF, watched over him carefully for ills, ailments and inherent fears (like fear of thunder) but when he perceived a threat, and I will admit I wasn't watching him closely, he reacted. All my training went out the window. Why? Because genetically, he was a fearful dog. I don't know his history...who bred him, with what parents, where he came from originally, etc. But I knew and was backed up on this that he was fear aggressive. Ergo, he had to be watched every second he spent in those situations that could trigger that aggression, something often forgotten when having a pleasant conversation with a well known neighbor, as an example.

You have been so lucky...or perhaps it's not necessarily luck but good judgement. When you have the time to see a pup with its parents and siblings, and you choose the one that seems the most well-rounded, you have a far better chance of ending up with a sound dog. Kudos to you for having done that with Lexie.

Thank you for your well wishes. Thor, bless his troubled heart, is waiting for me 'at the bridge', so to speak, while Freya and I are developing a relationship long overdue, given the amount of time, effort and energy Thor took while he was alive. If I need well wishes, it will be when I rescue my next dog, given that once again I will probably have little knowledge of his/her background and heaven only knows what I'll be getting. *laughing*


Diane...Freya's mom
If I weren't so damn healthy, I'd be sick...and I'm NOT sick.
Life is good! Live it to the fullest. Love well those near and dear.
I Aear cân ven na mar
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno] #275769
03/16/13 09:08 PM
03/16/13 09:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: Deno
Leah, no need to get all worked up, ...

Perhaps a bit of an aside, but I always find this type of response offensive, trying dismiss a sound argument (in this case both logically and scientifically) by assigning it to an emotional outburst (which it was not). This is a technique often used by some males when addressing strong and asssertive women - that whole double standard thing.

Leah, just calm your pretty little self down wink Don't worry yourself with facts and logic smile


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: MaxaLisa] #275772
03/16/13 09:22 PM
03/16/13 09:22 PM
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Posts: 1,378
Old Lyme CT
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Quote:
My new female pup Lexie is the most aggressive pup I have ever seen including Satan, my first male.

I guess it's a Checz thing,


I saw this, and wondered what you meant by "aggressive?", agressive how? just curious.

Masi (my gsd) would be rather insulted by "it's a czech thing" ..it's c z e c h btw:) since she is predominately czech.


Diane
Ozzie von Kleinen Hain
Jakoda's Kholee
Tranquillo's Kizzy
Danger Danger von Kleinen Hain aka "Masi"
"Angel" Harmonyhill's Hy Jynx aka "Jynx"
"Angel" Jakoda's Jagged Edge aka "Jag"
"Angel" Sami
"Angel" Dodge
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JakodaCD OA] #275785
03/16/13 11:20 PM
03/16/13 11:20 PM
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West Bay RI
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Dominance and aggression are often confused for the more correct terms: self assertive and confident.

Otto is a hard dog who exhibits traits that are often mistaken as dominant. He's not.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JakodaCD OA] #275853
03/17/13 03:50 PM
03/17/13 03:50 PM
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Fern Creek Ky
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Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OA
Quote:
My new female pup Lexie is the most aggressive pup I have ever seen including Satan, my first male.

I guess it's a Checz thing,


I saw this, and wondered what you meant by "aggressive?", agressive how? just curious.

Masi (my gsd) would be rather insulted by "it's a czech thing" ..it's c z e c h btw:) since she is predominately czech.



I may have used the wrong word here. She will back Dex off the food bowl
while growling and snarling and she isn't afraid to bite him in the process.

It's a whole another story with Sabel, my 13 year old female. Lexie has learned quick to pay her the upmost respect.

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