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It's all in how you raise them... #236410
06/15/12 04:18 PM
06/15/12 04:18 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline OP
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I was reading a newspaper article where someone said that about dogs.

Really? Do people think that? Do people here think that?

I have raised from 4 months or less, Ilsa, Mario, Rocco. I have done many of the same things, yet strangely, they act nothing alike and often, act like dogs of similar breeds more than as a "family" group who were raised alike. In fact, despite being raised by me, an involved dog forum type person who has fostered and adopted out highly functional dogs, the results are such that I would probably, if I did not know better, toss in the towel in terms of raising puppies.

But, I have also raised puppies for other people. Happy little silly puppies and they all did well.

So is it possible, my fellow logicians, that it was more than just "how I raised them" but the at least 80% (grad school stat I can't find source for) of genetic factors that influenced their behaviors?

Going a little further - this is something I had not read before - hmmmm, interesting:
http://www.videxgsd.com/understanding_dogs.htm

Some more stuff on it: http://www.animalbehavioronline.com/dogbehavioralgenetics.html

This is interesting but I only skimmed (and know when they mean aggression it's not the good kind): http://actavet.vfu.cz/pdf/200776030431.pdf

I am fully in the thought that a dog has a blueprint that is decided well before we get them. We can influence it positively or negatively, but we cannot change the core of what they are. We cannot just raise them right and undo chemistry and genetics. Science! happyboogie

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236415
06/15/12 04:59 PM
06/15/12 04:59 PM
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Remo Offline
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Once our rescue had a litter of pups that had come from a "junkyard" female GSD. There were four puppies in that litter. They were hand-reared by a biologist who had raised other litters of pups for us. They were socialized, handled extensively, she did EVERYTHING right for these pups. Out of the four pups, one was a nightmare - at four weeks old he growled and acted like he was going to bite the vet when the vet was trying to give him liquid dewormer. I distinctly remember the vet looking at me (with his eyes bugging out) and said that in his entire career, he had NEVER seen a young pup react this way.

I have not looked at any studies, but from this personal experience, I have no doubt that genetics plays an important role in personality.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Remo] #236417
06/15/12 05:29 PM
06/15/12 05:29 PM
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proudshepmom Offline
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proudshepmom  Offline
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I think there is some truth to it though. How a dog is raised certainly influences how they turn out...but it's not EVERYTHING...

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Remo] #236418
06/15/12 05:30 PM
06/15/12 05:30 PM
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Albuquerque, NM
Kayos Offline

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Kayos  Offline

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Jean I did not read all the links but I agree. We start with a genetic print and each breed is bred for certain things. Hard to make a duck retriever out of a Husky.

We can influence the pup through diet, exercise and socialization or lack of it, but if a dog is born aggressive it will stay aggressive.

Havoc is a little nutty, he was born that way. I think we have influenced him to be more stable but I think in the wrong home he would have been in trouble and quite possibly, dead by now. Or, in another home he might be a SchH 3 by now. In my home he is pretty good, works hard at his dog sports that I have chosen, picked up some titles. But he is carefully managed.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Remo] #236427
06/15/12 05:49 PM
06/15/12 05:49 PM
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ozzyandsandi Offline
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My biggest issue with the nature vs. nurture argument with nurture being the considering factor is as Remo said, a dog can never been shown a cruel hand, never been abused, never so much as had a late meal and be a disaster. Mentally not properly wired. On the other hand there are countless stories of dogs who have never been shown a kind hand, never slept in a house, never been fed proper food and yet are perfect once someone starts caring for them. The rescue section of this board and the stories and journey's contained therein are proof of that. Beyond science, what we all see and read, day in and day out.
If nurture were the only considering factor, we wouldn't have people, respected dog owners who have found themselves in the unfortunate situation of euthanizing a dog because of unmanageable aggression in dogs purchased from reputable breeders and raised what most of us could agree was correctly. We've all seen those stories and felt the heartbreak with the owners. I'm sure the breeders can tell stories of dog's returned to them under contract for aggression from good owners, from good breeding, ones where the siblings act as therapy or assistance dogs, dogs so sweet they fart perfume and one or maybe two pups from the litter might as well be junkyard curs the way they behave.
My biggest issue with the nature vs. nurture argument is it is the one pit folks trot out every single time, it's not the dog's fault it's all in how you raise them, bunk. Sometimes it is the dog. If it's all in how we raise an animal, let's all get pet Cayman's and let them be "Nanny's" to our children.
To me this argument does nothing more than perpetuate a myth and give rise to backyard breeders and puppy mills to continue churning out unstable, poorly bred dogs for the commercial market.
I live with two rescue dogs, Oz wasn't really a rescue, but we got him at 6 months, we don't think he was abused, he spent a lot of time in a run, Dolly, we know so little of her first year of life, she ended up in rescue at about 9 months of age, 30lbs over weight, wandering in the country with a male. She has broken teeth a deformed nail bed and eats watermelon, rind and all. She prefers people food to dog food, now maybe that is just her breed, but not a great start to life. You couldn't find a sweeter dog, a disposition, my goodness. No accidents in the house and even at the rescue she was kenneled. I don't think she was house broke, but she's clean, even when she came in heat, she was clean, I had some cleaning, but not a lot.


Patti loved by Ozzy (proud to be a Heinz 57) and Dolly (weighs more than most people, St. Bernard)...
Sandi's waiting at the Bridge
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: ozzyandsandi] #236433
06/15/12 07:07 PM
06/15/12 07:07 PM
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Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Without the context of the article, did it really mean that it really is *all* how you raise them? That seems incredibly naive? No doubt, how you train them, and the choices that you make for them, including medical, all play a role, but the bottom line, is that they are who they are, with their individual quirks and personalities.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: ozzyandsandi] #236435
06/15/12 07:14 PM
06/15/12 07:14 PM
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Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
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I think a particular type of treatment/training can have a strong affect on how a dog turns out but the underlying genetics will be just as strong.


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: BowWowMeow] #236445
06/15/12 07:42 PM
06/15/12 07:42 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline OP
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Really quick, yes, it was a pet owner, and they said all in how you raise them.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236449
06/15/12 07:50 PM
06/15/12 07:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline OP
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Then my head popped off. rofl

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236453
06/15/12 08:05 PM
06/15/12 08:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,674
Albuquerque, NM
Kayos Offline

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Kayos  Offline

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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
Then my head popped off. rofl
rofl

Sandy, Havoc is a prime example of this. I would not say I am the perfect owner or a faultless trainer but he has stretched me beyond all of my skill level. He is handful and will always be a handful. I think we have been successful because of my work and I am not bragging.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236454
06/15/12 08:10 PM
06/15/12 08:10 PM
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Eastern Oregon
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Zisso Offline
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I think how we raise them has a fair influence but that we raise each dog according to it's breed-with the knowledge that different breeds have different needs. I don't think I would be as firm with a toy breed as I am with my GSD's...I would probably pamper them more. That said I also agree with Patti (got your name right this time wink )in that there are some dogs who are just not mentally wired soundly to begin with.


Bev~mom to:
Zisso-DOB 09/16/07

R.I.P. Kiki, Nadia, Pepe, and all my other loves from years gone by.
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236455
06/15/12 08:10 PM
06/15/12 08:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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That makes me feel better that it was a pet owner.

Indy's behaviour was significantly altered by her vaccine reactions, and it changed her forever. You also see what idiot owners can do to their dogs. So, I understand the viewpoint!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: MaxaLisa] #236464
06/15/12 08:34 PM
06/15/12 08:34 PM
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ozzyandsandi Offline
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It's such a delicate balance. I mean there is who the dog is scientifically. There is what the breed is supposed to be, there is what the breeder wishes to accomplish in their goals and there is how we raise them. All elements have to be present, the dog needs to be mentally and physically sound, we all know a dog in pain will bite, a dog mentally unstable is a bite looking to happen.

I think JMHO the statement "It is all how you raise them", is very dangerous. It leads people to believe they can take any dog, raise it well, I mean these are likely well-meaning folks, and ignore things like breed characteristics, temperament and lineage.

I guess it's like breeding Jeffrey Dahmer to John Wayne Gacy, will you get a healthy, sane child, maybe, do you want the potential time bomb in your house?


Patti loved by Ozzy (proud to be a Heinz 57) and Dolly (weighs more than most people, St. Bernard)...
Sandi's waiting at the Bridge
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: ozzyandsandi] #236474
06/15/12 09:18 PM
06/15/12 09:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
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I was at the library this week and I saw one of the women that works there that I don't often see, so we caught up a bit on our dogs (she has a lab puppy she is working on getting a therapy certificate on), and she asked about Niko and I told her he had come to watch me race and had done very well and met several women and gotten petted by them (this was HUGE) so I said he'd come a long way.

The very next thing she said, "Oh so he wasn't socialized?" mad mad mad

Well, I was definitely offended by that offhand remark, even though I know she probably only ever dealt with little problems with her dog, like digging in the yard or chasing squirrels. HER DOG loves kids, and since mine doesn't, that's all my fault??? No, I cannot accept that.


"It's all in how you raise them"... I 100% disagree. I have to disagree because to accept this as true means that I have somehow seriously messed up my dog, who barks at little kids and little old ladies (and women, and most men, and cats, and bunnies, and...well, you get the picture.)

Through lots of work, private training, lots of work, and lots of work we have gotten him to be on mostly acceptable behavior when in public. Yes, I concede that we made some mistakes with him, tried to do too much too fast, did not take his cues that he was uncomfortable in situations, did not find a way to build up his confidence the way we should have, relied too much on the advice of trainers who did not understand the breed, etc. But I will not accept all the blame and say that Niko is the way he is because I messed up in raising him. mad


Leah
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236475
06/15/12 09:20 PM
06/15/12 09:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
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Good_Karma  Offline
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
Then my head popped off. rofl


My head kind of popped off too! laugh


Leah
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