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Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273042
02/27/13 06:44 PM
02/27/13 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deno[/quote


I think it was Kathy, and please forgive me if it was someone else, that suggested I have him on a leash for a while right out of the truck, I very well may start doing this just for saftey's sake even though he always comes right to me and sits down to start.



Yes it was me. Two words I never use in relation to my dogs. ALWAYS and NEVER.

Havoc ALWAYS comes on command. or Kayos NEVER barks at cats. I would be a liarto say that. What I am saying is never assume your dog, especially a youngster like Dex, will ever be 100% reliable. I am not 100% relaible and I am 55 years old.

About 99% of the time Havoc slams on the breaks and comes running. About 98% of the Kayos ignores cats. It is the 1 or 2% that worries me with an off leash and inexeprienced green dog. Good way to end up under a tire.

Lydi is 11 months old in 4 days. I would NEVER let her off leash in an unsecure area at her age.

As for the protection stuff, you do what you want and I will hope the best for you and Dex. I don't have enough protection experience to debate but I do know dogs and maturity levels and inexperience. Lacking in any of those is not a good combination on your own.


Kathy

PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU, RATN 4/4/12
Jeli, (Pembroke Welsh corgi) CGC, RATI 5/13/19

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos, Havoc - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: GSDElsa] #273073
02/27/13 10:20 PM
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GSDElsa,

It sounds like prudent advice to me for safteys sake. Dex is a big baby.

I agree, nothing beats experience. I expected there would be no comparisons

of methods, and I understand you guys not wanting to give out advice.

I have read all I can get my hands or eyes on, on dog training and I have

raised 2-1/2 big bad males. Dex is not kept outside, he sleeps in the bed with

us. He is a full fledged member of the family thus making all of my

training easier. I just think Lew Burke got it all right. But I am by no

means any kind of expert, and I am a novice at protection work.

Again your advice is prudent and I plan on talking to some trainers.

It can't hurt anything. I really like your avatar with his head

sticking out of the snow. That is a beautiful dog.

Thanks, Deno

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Kayos] #273075
02/27/13 10:59 PM
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All you say is true Kathy, whenever Dex is off the lead he always has his

shock collar on, and that will stop him in his tracks. There is nothing like

being able to give a wireless correction. Now I am sure some will disagree

with using these. To me they are priceless. I only use it after he has been

fully trained on a task, I make sure he knows what is expected of him before

he ever gets the first correction. He only gets it if he's a bad boy doing

something that we both know he knows better than to be doing. He gets very

few zaps, mostly involving other dogs. Kathy, with Burkes method and a few

little modifications Dex was heeling off the lead all over our yard just

before he was 4 months old. Each one of us know our own dogs, they are as

diverse as people. We all know their abilities and their limitations.

With love and common sense, most can be taught just about anything.

Theres a video on youtube with a Border Collie that has 1020 toys names

memorized. It is truly amazing. That's just pure smart.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273080
02/28/13 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: Deno
Lets just cut to the chase. What have I done wrong thus far and what would you do differently to train the task of "Bark on command" and/or show aggression on demand?

I am kind of sorry for being so snarky, but you started it.I am here to learn and I look forward to hearing how you would train this task.

I would like to know if there is a better way than Lew's method, I would use it, but I don't think it exist. Please prove me wrong.

I do appreciate you and everyones input and you do have me thinking about
holding up a little bit on his protection work.

But the fact is I need a dog I can rely on, any advice in this direction would be greatly appreciated.

Deno




No need to get snarky. The thing is, many of us have spent years, some even decades, training this sort of thing. So for someone to come in and say they have no experience, but they read this one book that we should all accept as the bible of protection training....can you not see how that might be a bit over the top? It would be one thing if this Burke had some qualifications in the field or some quantifiable evidence of his expertise (titles, certifications, dogs he's bred, people he's mentored and what they have achieved) and/or you were personally training with him, but neither seems the case.

I think what is recommended has already been stated by several people, several times. You need to get with a club and/or trainer that actually has experience training this sort of work. How can you improve as a trainer and handler if there are never any checks and balances and you admittedly have no experience in this venue? If you want your dog to be willing and prepared to put his life between yours and danger you at least owe it to him to get some decent training.

As for alert barking, I have done a PA ("Protection Alert") test with my dog and I trained for that with a club with several experienced decoys over two years. I don't know that it would be useful for me to rehash all of the training we did over a two year period but if you find a decent club and decoys it should not be a problem. I cannot recommend any books because I've never used a book for training, I need someone to show me and help me.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Liesje] #273101
02/28/13 03:10 AM
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Liesje, I know, But it's hard for me to fight nature. I just really respect Lew Burke because all of his methods have worked so well for me in such a short time. I feel a real kinship with the man and I would put his methods up against anyone based on what I have read and what has worked for me with all of my dogs. I know his methods on basic obedience far exceed anything I have read or seen anywhere else so I assumed the same was true for his protection work. I could be wrong.

I am all over the net and the real world and I have seen and heard all kinds of problems people are having with their dogs who are working or have worked with so called professionals. In some states anyone can call themselves a dog trainer.

I have already cried uncle on getting some real professional advice.

I think if you had a better or shorter route to aggression on demand you wouldn't mind rehashing it.

As far as alert barking goes, that just comes natural to Dex and I encourage it
and I never try and stifel it even if it's in the middle of the night.

All and all I am going to take you guys advice and stop for a while with the
protection training. One way or another I am going to safely get there.

Thanks for your input and good luck with your beautiful dog.
He looks like royalty in your avatar.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273189
02/28/13 06:26 PM
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The aggression is genetic. Your role is learning what buttons to push and when (and what buttons not to push), how to *cap* drive, turn it on and off. That is not something that you can do from a checklist or book as a one-time "oh this is what I do" sort of thing. The dog needs 1) genetics 2) maturity (which goes along with genetics) and 3) *time*. The more time you spend training the dog, the more you will learn about the dog and how to channel the aggression and drive. We are not making dogs into something they are not already. I'm not being snarky, I really cannot sit here and type out instructions on what I have done with my dog in the past 4.5 years. We're still a work in progress. I take training very seriously, especially training that involves our own safety and training that assumes my dog's role is to put himself between me and a threat. To think that I can quick summarize it on a web forum is borderline offensive given the amount of time and effort those of us here (and our dogs!!) put into our training. Jeez if it's so easy and all I had to do was join a forum a read one book, why did I spend 4 years and probably thousands of dollars traveling to train with good clubs, good decoys, observe top dogs and trainers?

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Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Liesje] #273298
03/01/13 04:24 AM
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Every thing is genetic. First off, if a person is going to go down this road they have to be honest with their self, is my dog cut out for this? am I?

Timid or suspicious dogs along with fear barkers and/or biters should never be used for this type work. They may bite without due cause.

There is no aggression to channel with Dex, he is a big baby who loves everyone. After our workouts every night I wear him out with a tennis ball. I just throw it til he wants to quit, he loves it more than anything.

You have to burn up that excess energy to have them really behave, at least thats the way it is with Dex.

As you know I just started Dex on Aggression on demand. I didn't really know if he had it him until that first day and I have to admit I never expected the reaction Dex had to JD slapping the floor. It was truly scary, I had a man eating monster on the leash, but wait, thats still my little baby Dex.

It just seems to me that if I can almost teach him to show aggression on demand as I have described in just three easy lessons, along with having him make friends with the "decoy", It would stand to reason that I could just as easy teach out.

It's just a matter of teaching him to stop all aggression on command. This from what I have read is a simple to accomplish with repeated corrections from a prong collar, and no its not hard on the dog when done right, just enough to bring him out of his aggressive state. This involves either a collar and harness or 2 collars, along with 2 leads in either case. Easy as pie as far as I can see if you have the right dog and some common sense.

And yes, all this came out of a book I read along with many others, not just one, Burkes is just my favorite. It may shock you guys, but many people learn many things this was. This forum hasn't been much help in this area as far as reaching my goal goes. But I am here to learn all I can.

How you spend your money and time is your business.

All I want is a dog that barks whenever he hears something outside along with barking at cars when they come up . I want him to go after anyone breaking in. I want him to be able to show aggression on demand and ultimately be able to go after someone if the need arises. And yes, I do have to be able to stop him in an instant.

I really don't think this is rocket science to teach to a dog like Dex. But I also know there is nothing like experience.

We both should know that Dex is a perfect canidate for protection work,
other maybe than his age, and your point on his maturity level is well taken.
You have me thinking here.

Now we come down to me, am I his true pack leader? do i have him under 100% control all the time or is this really possible? I am an admitted novice with 3 lessons under my belt as far as experience goes in this area.

I am the pack leader, but every now and I let him slide on things I shouldn't because he is just so cute and I love him sooo much. This does not happen often but it does happen. I do not have him 100% under control at this time but I think now more than ever that it might just be obtainable. I only have the experience i have,but I have a lot of common sense to apply towards what I have read.

I am holding up on the protection work due to all of you guys concerns and
Dex's age.

It won't hurt anything for both of us to be a little older and wiser.

But one way or another we will both get there.

Thanks,Deno

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273377
03/01/13 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deno


It's just a matter of teaching him to stop all aggression on command. This from what I have read is a simple to accomplish with repeated corrections from a prong collar, and no its not hard on the dog when done right, just enough to bring him out of his aggressive state. This involves either a collar and harness or 2 collars, along with 2 leads in either case. Easy as pie as far as I can see if you have the right dog and some common sense.


But it's not about YOU it's about the dog and how he's being worked (by the decoy). This is something you probably won't understand until you actually do it (this was true for me, even after a few years of training). No it's not just about slapping a bunch of collars on a dog and making him stop. Maybe you're making him stop when he shouldn't be, or he should be stopping when he's not. The dog is not really trained by how he's being handled by the owner but by how he's being worked by the decoy. He should always be in an aggressive state; you don't want the drive to wax and wane but need to learn to *cap* it. Again, not something most people understand until they actually see, and better yet do, but good decoys already understand this and can work your dog at a higher level of understanding.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Liesje] #273513
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Deno, I don't understand what you want. You read this one book and its style appeals to you. From what you describe this style is compulsive, confrontational with the dog, and authoritarian in tone. The book you like so much is not written by a handler who has certified his/her dogs as K-9s or has earned a single Schutzhund title. You say you come here to learn.

Liesje especially has patiently given you some pointers as to what is involved in protection training. All you seem to do is repeat that your book is great and knows it all, and better than the people here who have trained protection for years, and with different, experienced trainers.

Ok, some people need simplicity, one book, one belief, one leader to follow. Especially the people who always talk about having to be the 'true pack leader' seem to be inclined themselves to need a leader to submit to, to follow blindly, be that Mr Millan or earlier incarnations of TV show trainers.

Training protection is complex. You seem to be asking for yet another 'cookbook' or 'bible', or a paragraph on an internet forum, as an alternative to the one you have. Or another leader to follow. People keep telling you there is no one cookbook, no one leader. Go out, watch others train (a lot!), and learn from experienced trainers like the rest of us have.

There is a big confusion underneath the talk about 100% control and 'switching' the dog's aggression on and off. This talk is confusing the dog with a machine. In real life protection a dog has to sometimes make decisions. That is were the dog's trained knowledge and his experience comes in, beyond his natural protectiveness. Enabling him to make good decisions in real life situations (and not decisions that get him euthanized and the handler getting a law suit), that is the work that Liesje sketched so well in her posts. It's training for the unexpected.

A naturally protective GSD will bark more or less ferociously at a person who knocks on the door. And if the dog is stable, he will stop once he knows the person is welcome. Staging that situation and firing the dog up isn't protection training.


Sarah
Chip vom Dog Pound, border terrior, Director of Rodent Control, CGC
Elly von Rescue, GSD, CGC, HI(C)
Captain Jack, Mama Blue, Little Orca, Bübchen, Tux, Cherub (pocket lions)

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Liesje] #273546
03/02/13 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: Liesje
Originally Posted By: Deno


It's just a matter of teaching him to stop all aggression on command. This from what I have read is a simple to accomplish with repeated corrections from a prong collar, and no its not hard on the dog when done right, just enough to bring him out of his aggressive state. This involves either a collar and harness or 2 collars, along with 2 leads in either case. Easy as pie as far as I can see if you have the right dog and some common sense.


But it's not about YOU it's about the dog and how he's being worked (by the decoy). This is something you probably won't understand until you actually do it (this was true for me, even after a few years of training). No it's not just about slapping a bunch of collars on a dog and making him stop. Maybe you're making him stop when he shouldn't be, or he should be stopping when he's not. The dog is not really trained by how he's being handled by the owner but by how he's being worked by the decoy. He should always be in an aggressive state; you don't want the drive to wax and wane but need to learn to *cap* it. Again, not something most people understand until they actually see, and better yet do, but good decoys already understand this and can work your dog at a higher level of understanding.



In my mind it's all about the person and the character of the dog. The dog will never go further than the trainer can take them. And there are dogs that the best trainer in the world can only take so far.

It seems simple to me, the dog needs to stop when I tell him to.

As the trainer, I instruct the decoy how to perform to teach the dog a task.

I reall don't understand the "always needs to be in aggressive state"

I want to be able to turn it off and on like a light switch.

I would like to see what you are talking about in person, it is possible that

I could come away with another perspective.

Thanks for yours and everyone elses input.

I don't know about you guys but this is about enough for me on this subject.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: shepnterrier] #273547
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Alright one more.

A naturally protective GSD will bark more or less ferociously at a person who knocks on the door. And if the dog is stable, he will stop once he knows the person is welcome. Staging that situation and firing the dog up isn't protection training.

I agree with you and I said it before. It's aggression on command training.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273583
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I really just don't understand this thread:

"I don't know what I'm doing and have never trained a dog in protection, but have read a book." But I'm going to argue and claim it's so much simpler that what you all are saying.

Um, ok. More power to you. I don't think anyone is going to keep beating a dead horse. You have your own totally incorrect ideas of what you think protection training is (despite the fact you've never actually done or trained it). Hope for your sake and the dog's nothing ever happens as a result of you winging it at home.


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Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273592
03/02/13 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deno

In my mind it's all about the person and the character of the dog. The dog will never go further than the trainer can take them. And there are dogs that the best trainer in the world can only take so far.

It seems simple to me, the dog needs to stop when I tell him to.

As the trainer, I instruct the decoy how to perform to teach the dog a task.

I reall don't understand the "always needs to be in aggressive state"

I want to be able to turn it off and on like a light switch.

I would like to see what you are talking about in person, it is possible that

I could come away with another perspective.

Thanks for yours and everyone elses input.

I don't know about you guys but this is about enough for me on this subject.


You need to understand drive and capping. Again it's not something I can make you understand, you need to see it and it will be clear even without having to read books on the subject. You don't shut down the aggression (because I disagree with your opening statement above, your dog is what he is despite you and sometimes even in spite of you....I didn't make that up, heard it from a good helper at the last seminar I attended), you *cap* the aggression.

Keep in mine *you* opened this thread in the Schutzhund forum. If you just want to talk about getting the dog under control at the door, try the General Behavior or General Training sections. I agree with everything Sylvia said. The "training" you describe in the opening of the thread is just getting a dog barking at someone at the door....OK your dog (and my dog and most dogs in this thread) are going to do that naturally. I cannot get into specifics if you don't give us anything more. If that is really all you want (alert barking) then you don't really need to train, GSDs already do that, but that is not protection training. If you want to train a dog in protection then you need to train the dog in protection.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Liesje] #273617
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I know there is always more to learn and I thank you all.

I will heed your advice.

I did say from the get go that this was Aggression on demand training

and that is on top of the barking at the door.

Dex has been barking at the door since I can remember.

Thanks again to all for your input.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273841
03/03/13 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deno
Alright one more.

A naturally protective GSD will bark more or less ferociously at a person who knocks on the door. And if the dog is stable, he will stop once he knows the person is welcome. Staging that situation and firing the dog up isn't protection training.

I agree with you and I said it before. It's aggression on command training.


Had to quick quote myself here for clarification.

Teaching a dog to show Aggression on demand is the first stage or platform

for protection work in Lew Burks Book.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #273851
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Not having been involved in schutzhund or protection, but having had a dog some might call attack trained, I think I would rewatch the balabanov videos, and see what White (can't remember his name Steve White) has to offer - police dog trainer who is a crossover trainer. I would also look at some of trainers mentioned by others with experience in this area, I just can't comment on them, my experience in this area is tangential.


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Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: MaxaLisa] #273872
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I guess my response would be, I don't want to work with a dog I have to teach aggression to. IMO, it's either in the dog or it's not. The first stage of my training is feeling out the dog. What are his drive levels at this stage, what are his triggers, what are his thresholds, how does he react to a helper working in prey, how does he react to a helper being suspicious, how much pressure can he take in various situations, etc. I need to know that first before the helper and I decide how to work him to get where we want to go. Personally I wouldn't trust any training regimen that's too formulaic. I need to see what the dog is bringing to the table and blend that with my goals and my helper's experience, and a lot of these things are always in flux because my goals might change, I might change clubs or helpers depending on what my dog needs, and my dog will change as he matures and we tap into certain things we want to bring out and cease to extinction the things we don't want. I need to have a really good feel for my dog and how he naturally reacts to different situations before I would begin to train a specific exercise and channel those drives.

I am not saying I think I am perfect, I am saying this because I am guilty of working a dog into a "box" and after making that mistake, having to take several steps and almost two year's worth of work backwards in order to bring more balance to the training and achieve the result I was looking for in the first place.

Last edited by Liesje; 03/04/13 12:51 AM.
Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Liesje] #274297
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Liesje, I think you have misunderstood the point of the training I described. I in no way was trying to teach aggression. If a dog is not cut out for it, he's not cut out for it, we agree on this. I was training for aggression on demand with the mention of "Watch Him". I knew a long time before I started Dex down this road what drives him and I exploit it to the max. The long and the short of it is I know my dog better than any one else in this world. The perfect canidate for this type work is not an aggressive dog,but the loveable big lug who loves everone and is afraid of nothing. He is not a nervous barker,so on and so on. I knew where I wanted to go from the get go, that didn't take a lot of thinking. All it takes is knowledge and the ability to apply it. I agree about the training not being too formulaic, common sense dictates you do what works with your dog. I am curious, did your trainer have a hand in working your dog into this box? and if you wouldn't mind please explain. I know this next may make me sound like a Jerk, and really I'm not, but I think I can train Dex to do anything once I have read or seen how it's done. Dex is just that smart.

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: GSDElsa] #274321
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Originally Posted By: GSDElsa
I really just don't understand this thread:

"I don't know what I'm doing and have never trained a dog in protection, but have read a book." But I'm going to argue and claim it's so much simpler that what you all are saying.

Um, ok. More power to you. I don't think anyone is going to keep beating a dead horse. You have your own totally incorrect ideas of what you think protection training is (despite the fact you've never actually done or trained it). Hope for your sake and the dog's nothing ever happens as a result of you winging it at home.



Forgive me, I am a little bored tonight.

I never said I didn't know what I was doing. I said I was a novice.

If you look it up you will find you have the definition wrong.

I never said I only read one book, I said this one was the best I had read.

And forgive me again but it's not rocket science to train a dog.

It's you thats mixed up on what I was training for.

It's very simple and I think I explained it well.

Can you give me an example of one of my incorrect ideas on protection training?

I can assure you with certainty that when I do resume "winging it at home"

anything that could or would go wrong has gone wrong with many "professionals".

Deno

Re: Only Dex's third protection lesson. [Re: Deno] #274325
03/06/13 03:14 AM
03/06/13 03:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,022
Liesje Offline
Pooh-Bah
Liesje  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,022
Originally Posted By: Deno
Liesje, I think you have misunderstood the point of the training I described. I in no way was trying to teach aggression. If a dog is not cut out for it, he's not cut out for it, we agree on this. I was training for aggression on demand with the mention of "Watch Him".


It's capping. Your dog will probably load in aggression whether you want him to or not or think he is or not. You load him and cap him, then give him a cue to alert. Same thing with bringing him back under control. You're not shutting it down or turning off the drive, just teaching the dog how to cap. The problem is if you don't understand this and don't know how to do it, you can easily overstimulate the dog and lose control, or over correct the dog and shut him down (which is not what you want). Your line of questioning only focuses on you....what is your decoy doing? How is he "reading" your dog and responding appropriately? Honestly how the decoy is working the dog often matters more than what the handler is doing. A decoy can ruin a dog or can make a dog look great in spite of poor handling. If you're trying to cap your dog's drive and aggression and your decoy is doing something counter to that then you're just creating conflict with your dog and no one's learning anything, plus doing so in the context of personal protection adds a whole new layer of risk and liability. You cannot train Dex to do what you are describing by yourself or due to your own commitment, I'm sorry I don't doubt he's smart but that's just not how it works. You should be having these discussions with your decoy.

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