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Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: kutzro357] #24969
03/27/10 05:37 PM
03/27/10 05:37 PM
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Kutro; If Skye would do good on cyclo I would get it and already looked into Walgreens. However, because she has other autoimmune problems, we (both the vet and I) are hesitant to use a systematic immune suppresant. Skey does get cyclo in her eyes for Pannus, but that is topical.

I stopped Skye's vaccines before all this and this vet was glad to hear that.

We have just started this journey and I hope it gets better. All or you have been great help to me - the support alone is priceless.

I am learning more every day - one of things I have learned is that there is no "one treatment fits all" for this illness.

Skye is tough - we will find what works best for her and live each great day together.

Thank you.


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #24979
03/27/10 06:10 PM
03/27/10 06:10 PM
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kutzro, I hope your boy is responding to treatment?

Bonnie, it's funny the reasoning why not to use the cyclosporine, since that's the same reasoning that my Derm and vet said to use it! They thought that since he had more systemic immune dysfunction, that the systemic cyclosporine would work very well for him. It made sense to me actually.

Max's did respond to antibiotics, but then again, I use doxy, which has a lot of anti-inflammatory effects. Max's inflammation responds to Doxy and Rimadyl (used after a tooth extraction), but not to Metacam or cyclosporine - he makes no sense to me. High dose doxy and low dose Cipro was working very well for Max, but the Derm was nervous about using cipro at a low dose and creating restistance, so I switched to doxy and amoxi, which is still working to hold things, so far, I think, I hope.

I'm really sorry to hear that Skye is so painful. It's one thing to be uncomfortable, and another to be in outright pain. I gather the fistula(s) have opened up and look terrible frown I hate that. If they continue to open, then you know that the treatment is not working. Once they open, that should allow them to heal. I've got a spot on Max I'm watching very carefully, not sure if it's a new bubble or irritation from him when he gets at it.

If you go the cyclo route, the next step if the cipro doesn't work, I would definitely add the ketoconazole. Not only does it allow less cyclo to be used, but with the GSD susceptibility for fungus, it's added insurance.'

It sounds like you found a good product to try. You will have to give us an update on how it works out. I like all the standard joint stuff, but I think that the HA adds something.

Hugs to you and Skye, you're both such troopers!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #25100
03/28/10 12:24 AM
03/28/10 12:24 AM
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Lisa;

I found HA at Vitamin world - it is 50 mg. Is that too much to give Skye a day?

I am going to have to write all these things down for my vet - I wonder if I am confused or she is? I think the more I read, the more confused I become. thinking

My understanding is that it is good to suppress the immune system where needed for things like Skye's eyes, it would not be good to suppress her total system. Is that not right??

I may have to follow up Skye's visit Tuesday with the dermatologist with MedVet. I took Skye to their office in Columbus for her eyes, but I thought my vet in Troy would work out. I still believe in her - will see what Tuesday brings.

Here is the new joint product I found that sounds good to me. They used this initially for horses and created one for dogs.

If is in a cookie form, just taking two a day. Skye and Buddy sampled one and liked the taste. It has the HA in it (10 mg per treat.)

http://www.majestys.com/bb_flex.php

I also saw this one, but would have to continue the HA separately. It is powder form, like the one I currently use:

http://www.hiltonherbs.com/products/mobility-support/210

Your thoughts?


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #25219
03/28/10 04:58 AM
03/28/10 04:58 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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For the HA, 50 mg is not too much. I don't know what the dose for a GSD should be, but for right now, I have Max on 100mg per day, and Indy on 50 mg per day. I am taking less than that myself to keep costs down.....darn dogs!

The first product contains all the things for the health of the joint, that you would use to prevent or slow further deterioration: glucosamine, chondroitin, msm, vit C, HA.

The second product, with msm and bamboo, looks like they have some nutrients that are good for the joints (the bamboo looks like it might contain silica and a few other things, I don't know much about it). The other ingredients are primarily antiinflammatories, which help keep the joints moving, but don't help as much with the structure of the joint as the other product.

The first one is more about the health of the joints. For a dog that is showing joint symptoms, I don't know if that alone will do the trick. You might have to add another product.

Okay, about the cyclosporin and systemic suppression. I went back and was reading one of the genetic papers on PF. There are two major things to note. The first is that they have noted a lot of Staph bacteria with most PF's. (I'm glad I read that, because I was hoping to stop the Tylan for Max, but that is effective against Staph, so probably not a good idea.)

The second thing is the genetic component to PF's. I have a student with Crohn's disease, that has tested positive for a gene that makes him susceptible to that disease, but also to a disease that causes a lot of spine problems, and I think there might also be something else that i can't remember.

They think that they have found a genetic link to PF's, and I think it may be similar to the crohn's disease issue. Although a PF is right in that anal region, it is not a disease of just that area. It is about the immune system as a whole. So treating with the cyclo really may be treating the whole body with something that might benefit it in the long run.

Now, the problem with this is that immune suppression as a whole, invites other infections, invites cancer, and the serious drugs also have implications for the liver, which processes the drug. You don't want to use the Cipro for the long term either though.

I held off as long as I could to try the cyclo, but I did when it was clear he needed help (I was very disappointed when it didn't work for him). Sean Rescue Mom has had Sean on cyclo and also doxy/niacinamide and other stuff in treating Sean for his very serious autoimmune condition, he is doing great. Sometimes their bodies require this.

How old is Skye?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #25281
03/28/10 05:10 PM
03/28/10 05:10 PM
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Ohio
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This great information. Lisa. Where is the magic wonder drug that helps everything, tho. hammer

Skye will be 7 in October. Not quite a senior and behaves more like 3. She is tall, 26 1/2 inches and her weight stays between 58 and 60 all the time. She is a long slender dog.

I am going to give her just 1 HA capsule, 50mg, a day for now - opening it and putting it in her food. Up to now, her joint health has been good and I have used a daily joint powder as preventative.

I will be changing her daily one (due to no longer being available) and I keep going back and forth on the two products I mentioned.


I love to see the 'Sean' updates - he is a special dog and Marlene takes such great care of him.

Thanks again - I am taking a lot of notes.


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #25296
03/28/10 06:17 PM
03/28/10 06:17 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Don't obsess too much, I know it's hard wink

If Skye were younger, then most likely she would have a different genetic link. Being her age, the genetics are just a bit different. But that's not useful info though, just a side note.

Max's PF first showed at 8.

Are Skye's stools always good?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #25317
03/28/10 08:02 PM
03/28/10 08:02 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Bonnie, does Skye tolerate beef based supplements?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #25402
03/28/10 11:55 PM
03/28/10 11:55 PM
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Skye's stools are probably 99% good. She has soft stools rarely.

I don't know the last time I gave her anything with beef base, except for bones once in awhile - no problems with those.


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #25407
03/29/10 12:07 AM
03/29/10 12:07 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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I was asking about the digestive system because so many of these PF dogs have food issues. Forgot that I think you recently changed foods.

If I were to give one supplement to try to modulate the immune system, I would try this particular one: http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-True-CMO-Cetyl-Myristoleate

It's beef-based, so I can't use it on Max frown , but it has helped Indy quite a bit.

You've got a lot on your plate right now, but I thought I'd throw this out there.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #25413
03/29/10 12:18 AM
03/29/10 12:18 AM
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Buddy and Skye were on EVO for some time. I wanted to try something different and after a couple of trials, ended up with Orijen 6 Fish.

I am glad now due to what I have learned here and other sources about single protein sources not eaten before and dealing with pf.

Both dogs like it and are doing well on it.

The supplement you listed is for the immune system, not joints?


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #25416
03/29/10 12:28 AM
03/29/10 12:28 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Good about the food thumbup

The CMO is actually great for the immune system & joints...it is one of the very few supplements that is good for BOTH osteoarthritis AND rheumatoid arthritis, which is what caught my eye when I first started using it. Indy's joint issues are mostly categorized as polyarthritis, which is much like RA. Of course induced by her lyme vaccine though.

There's a thread on the old board about folks that have used CM for joint issues for their dogs - I think it's under supplements in the health sticky.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #26358
03/31/10 08:35 AM
03/31/10 08:35 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Thinking of you and Skye hugging


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: MaxaLisa] #26588
03/31/10 11:41 PM
03/31/10 11:41 PM
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Thank you! Sorry I did not post last night - I was helping to evaluate some dogs in the current therapy animal class and got home late.

We were back at the vet for follow up last night. I am not sure about this, but I guess time will tell. thinking

After I told her the history of the break outs, infection and swelling the past 2 weeks, we both agreed that the sores seemed to have peaked and now were getting a little better. Skye is not as swollen on the bottom of the anal area, but the top is still pretty puffy, red and fiery looking. She almost looks as if the surface of the skin was just shaved off.

You can see that the skin is trying to heal over and there is no infection showing now.

Here Dr talked again about wanting to stay away cyclo if at all possible. She took her off the cipro since the area looks painful, but clean. She wants to see if Skye's lethargy is from the cipro. She sleeps so much and only plays with Buddy in short bursts.

In two weeks with no changes in diet, Skye gained 5 pounds. blush

She put her on prednisone, but just 2X a day for three days. She also asked me to keep using the tacralimus 2X a day, not just one.

But - she is going to do more research to see what she finds about the tac being very harsh and people being advised to go once a day on it.

So right now, just pred and the ointment. She is scheduled back in two weeks but said to call if I saw any sign of infection or negative changes in Skye.

She likes the supplements she is on (joint compound and hyaluronic acid.)

She also mentioned the orajel for pain, or a spray like people use for sunburn to soothe her. So more good ideas here.

I would like to use a more natural anti-inflammatory after the pred is done.

Does this all sound OK?


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #26665
04/01/10 03:01 AM
04/01/10 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: PositiveDog
I love to see the 'Sean' updates - he is a special dog and Marlene takes such great care of him.


Aw shucks, Lisa and you are 2 of my biggest fans. blush Bonnie, I'm so sorry to hear that Skye is having this problem. My heart goes out to you. If for any reason your vet decides to prescribe cyclo. and/or ketoconazole please don't hesitate to contact me. Hugs and healing thoughts to Skye. hug


Sean - 1998/2014
If there ever comes a day when we can't be together, keep me in your heart I'll stay there forever.
Carleton DOB unknown
Neely - 2003/2015
Gizmo -2008/2011
Neeko -1991/2005
Re: perianal fistulas - scared for skye [Re: PositiveDog] #26740
04/01/10 07:45 AM
04/01/10 07:45 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: PositiveDog
Thank you! Sorry I did not post last night - I was helping to evaluate some dogs in the current therapy animal class and got home late.


I figured that you had a life, and stuff to do wink I knew you would update when you were ready or had time!



Quote:
After I told her the history of the break outs, infection and swelling the past 2 weeks, we both agreed that the sores seemed to have peaked and now were getting a little better. .....

You can see that the skin is trying to heal over and there is no infection showing now.


Super news that there is improvement. Watch carefully, if you see any backsliding, back on the antibiotics!

Quote:
Here Dr talked again about wanting to stay away cyclo if at all possible. She took her off the cipro since the area looks painful, but clean. She wants to see if Skye's lethargy is from the cipro. She sleeps so much and only plays with Buddy in short bursts.

She put her on prednisone, but just 2X a day for three days.


Hmmm, wonder if it is from the Cipro? That is a pretty high powered antibiotic.

On the PF list, seems that some dogs respond to pred, some to cyclo, some need both.

Interesting the 2x per day for 3 days, but then what until your next check up? Nothing for the remaining two weeks, other than the protopic? That makes me nervous. The rule I wish I would have followed, is don't change anything as long as the PF is improving. I understand changing the Cipro if it's causing lethargy, but nothing other than the tac after three days????

Curious, what dosage is being used for the pred?

Quote:
In two weeks with no changes in diet, Skye gained 5 pounds. blush


Wonder if there was some SIBO and the weight gain was from the probiotics? Max gained weight with the antibiotics, moreso recently, maybe from food change, maybe other things. If Skye gained from the antibiotics, then I would consider treating with abx longer....of course I'm a big fan of doxy for both SIBO and the PF here.


Quote:
But - she is going to do more research to see what she finds about the tac being very harsh and people being advised to go once a day on it.


She probably won't find anything, it's one of those client experience things. I don't know how many dogs it's true for though.


I'm hoping that you made a typo about the pred for three days, and then nothing?????

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 04/01/10 07:47 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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