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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: PositiveDog] #227826
04/29/12 04:06 PM
04/29/12 04:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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I do think part of the issue is fear that this will all end, and the visual thing that Val brought up is dead on too from my recent observations.

It is a form of separation anxiety, because you can see the sheer panic and anxiety. I will be right there, and she's panting, bug-eyed, drooling - in a sheer state of panic - it isn't pretty at all frown . It is very closely related to being crated or kenneled. Once we get past this, I hate to think how her first stay at the vet's will be...

Yesterday, when doing some yardwork, I put her on a tie out with her new comfort flex harness. I generally don't like tie-outs (Max would bust through them), but she fairly quickly learned where the end of the tie-out was after I work with her to show her (I so worry about them jamming themselves up), and for a long time, stayed at the end just staring at me. However, shortly after, she was off staring at other things, which I consider a huge success. Just to get her away from me physically and fairly content is a pretty step.

When I had to use the cone, I'd come home to the cone half-off. The donut thing somehow ended up in a weird spot on her body, but thankfully that's behind us and I can leave her in the crate with a kong.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Separation Anxiety (jazz update) [Re: MaxaLisa] #230550
05/14/12 04:34 PM
05/14/12 04:34 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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So, while I've been working, and sick, we've made little progress.

I have learned that she has no issues with the crate, she will wander in throughout the day on her own with no problem, but it's a visual thing with me.

I left a recorder on, for the first 50 min she is yelping and crying and rocking and pawing the crate. Then she settles, and repeats this for about 5-7 minutes every 1/2 hour. Some of that quiet time she has a kong which only gets 1/2 empty, she is too stressed I guess. The other part of the time I suspect she is chewing on the bars. She has some scuff marks on her K9's already, and I'm worried about her teeth.

The shower is a good example. I had been crating her. She goes nuts when I go behind the shower curtain. Below, if you can make it out, are the bent bars on top of the kennel from her.
http://pbr47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/Jazwell/IMG-20120514-00279.jpg


I had tried to leave her out of the kennel before, and just keep her in the bathroom area with her treat (then a bully stick), but she couldn't handle it. Once I went behind the curtain, she started with the panic, and at one point was even pawing on the door to get out...

Today we made progress for the first time. I have an antler shaved in half for her which she only gets when I shower. She has a mat upstairs that she knows is hers to get treats on. I put that in the bathroom with the antler. She did freak when I went behind the curtain, but let her peek into the shower a bit and splashed her with water so she understood better. Then she went back to her treat. We had to do that several times, but we managed a successful shower with minimal yipping and no further damage to her teeth.

Of course, as I crated her to leave, she already started chewing on the bars frown

Got the DAP diffuser (damn, just realized I plugged it in upside down headbang ).


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Separation Anxiety (jazz update) [Re: MaxaLisa] #230557
05/14/12 05:04 PM
05/14/12 05:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,858
Wisconsin
Wisc.Tiger_Val Offline
Member First - Owner Second "The Watcher"
Wisc.Tiger_Val  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,858
Wisconsin
Lisa for bar chewers the only thing I found that worked for DeeDee was to secure a piece of Lexan the exact size so it meets up with either the door frame or the crate frame. You don't want any space that a toenail could get hooked on if she paws. Make sure she can't cut herself on the edges or duct tape the edges.

The problem with this is that it cuts down the amount of air, so you have to possibly drill air holes in the crate, spaced so she can't get her teeth hooked in them. Plus I had a small fan that I set up next to the crate to push air into the crate.

She is a smart little cookie and if she ever gets out of a crate by chewing or pulling on the bar area look out. DeeDee was never safe in a wire crate because of her ability to escape, then she figured out how to bend and pull in the heavier chrome doors on a VariKennel. That is when I figured out the Lexan so she couldn't get her teeth on the bars.

Have you tried a body wrap or Thundershirt type item with her. Once DeeDee figured out that the Thundershirt was a nice calming thing she liked it. Again I would use fan to move air to make sure she didn't over heat.

Also Tranquil Tabs or Rescue Remedy.

I had to crate DeeDee for her safety. If I wasn't here and she panicked, she was trying to escape or escape to find me, but no place just escape to run. I have 6 panel oak doors that were decorated by her, one or two window frames that were DeeDee decorated. I always had a fear of her getting out a window or breaking a window.


Val da Tiger

Fuzzybutt the cat.
Neilla the Big White puppy.

RIP Cheyenne - AKA: Digger, CheyChey Girl, Cheyenne Large and In charge. 2/16/02 - 2/27/16
RIP Raya - AKA: Raz-a, Ray a Sunshine, RayBestos, the little one, Silly Girl. 9/21/05 - 6/27/14
RIP Lakota - AKA: Bubba, Big Boy, BooBoo (the other part of the Binky and BooBoo team). 1/19/03-9/19/2011
RIP DeeDee - AKA: DD Poo, Little Bit, Binky (part of the Binky and Booboo team) 6/23/02-6/20/11
Re: Separation Anxiety (jazz update) [Re: Wisc.Tiger_Val] #230590
05/14/12 06:13 PM
05/14/12 06:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,032
MA
shepnterrier Offline
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MA
Have faith and keep working on it, she will overcome it. A Kong might not be good enough, have you tried a marrow bone or bully stick? Give it to her, leave it for one minute and then come back and take it away. These super super value things should only be available to her when you are out of sight, never when you are with her.

A sure bet to boost her confidence is training by 'shaping' behaviors. Once they get the knack of it, it is very empowering. Talk to the Chipster about it!

Rescued pups (incl. the one I currently have in training) often have never been alone, there were either with litter mates or shared a kennel at the shelter. Also, it is unlikely that anyone ever took them away from mom and siblings for a few minutes and did good things with them. That practice gets them used early on to some mild stress and to the experience that good things happen when briefly separated from mom and the puppy pile, and yes the world does not come to an end. So frustration tolerance is often a major issue, and they have not had an early experience that they can actually handle the world while alone. Thus confidence boosting training techniques are so important.

Hope finals are over, you can catch up on eating and sleeping, relax, and have fun with your pup!


Sarah
Chip vom Dog Pound, border terrior, Director of Rodent Control, CGC
Elly von Rescue, GSD, CGC, HI(C)
Captain Jack, Mama Blue, Little Orca, Bübchen, Tux, Cherub (pocket lions)

Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: Good_Karma] #230610
05/14/12 07:11 PM
05/14/12 07:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 607
A
anniej Offline
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Some homeopathy help - Ignatia 30c am and Pulsatilla 30c for one week - helps release fear of abandoment

Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: anniej] #232445
05/24/12 07:56 PM
05/24/12 07:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Updating!

Annie, thanks for the remedies. Still finishing out the post-rabies protocol, so will have to wait on those, but will definitely keep them on the list.

I think that the DAP helps. She often goes over and smells it? Tried to lick it once? The once time I used it correctly, she did not seem so bad, though I don't know if it was coincidence.

The shower. She's inconsistent - two steps forward, one step backward. Sometimes still freaks and starts pawing at the cabinets and door in a weirdly hysterical fashion, but I telll her to find her treat (bully stick), and then she frantically will chew that. Occassional whining and crying, but slowly getting better.

I was able to leave her in the crate chewing a bully stick, with me visible, for a relatively long time yesterday. Will start working on that, and slowly moving out of sight, now that I'm on summer break. She is frantic though, looks like someone with a weird panic eating disorder crazy

I'm behind the times on training ideas, techniques, theories, etc. Bought the following:
McConnell's I'll Be Home Soon
McDevitt's Control Unleashed Puppy Program
Stewart's Behavior Adjustment Training
Von Reinhardt's Chase! Managing Your Dogs's Predatory Instincts

I'm not so sure about the last book, already saw some advice I disagreed with, but I think I may find some selective tips. The others I've seen recommended on the forum, and I think her apprehension about being separated, at least for her, translates to a larger concern about the world around her.

So, I guess this will be a slow process - I hope that it will be a successful one - sure hate when her eyes get big, shakes, she lip licks and salivates, and just has general fits at the thought of separation.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #232455
05/24/12 08:44 PM
05/24/12 08:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Buffalo
WDJ just re-published this article on SA: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/11_7/features/Canine-Separation-Anxiety_16044-1.html?s=FB

Also, the click for calm exercise in this article is a good one: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_5/features/Training-Hyperactive-Dogs_20259-1.html

I bet she is slowly settling in and will improve with each week. I remember that it was a long time before Rafi could stay in the bedroom (with Chama!) while I brushed my teeth without flipping out.


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
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Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BowWowMeow] #232478
05/24/12 11:10 PM
05/24/12 11:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Thanks Ruth! I saw those come through, great articles!

Yes, the teeth brushing! Oddly, she *loves* to go to bed (so happy to have a home? She tells me if I am staying up too late!), so about half the time I do get to brush my teeth alone!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #237442
06/20/12 05:04 AM
06/20/12 05:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Just updating a bit....

I started feeding Jazz in the crate, which, I tried doing initially, but that was when I was using the crate that was too large, and somehow forgot to do when I switched crates.

I also started putting a couple of towels in the bed at night, and, after sleeping with them, would leave those in the crate the next day.

Continued to use the DAP diffuser, left a chew toy and two filled Kongs.

It seemed to be getting a little bit better - no urine or vomit when I got home, but whatever I left in the crate was just wet with what I think was a combination of drool and suckling on the cloth. Luckily, she doesn't eat it. One day, there was a hole in one of the towels, and I felt really stupid for leaving it in there, but I found the piece all wadded and spit out, what a smart girl.

But then she had her hernia surgery, and I can't crate her because she can't stress that area (the stress during crating, her panting, etc., was making the hernias pop out it seems), so when she gets done with this surgery recovery, we are back to square one I think frown


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #237461
06/20/12 10:54 AM
06/20/12 10:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Belfast, NY
Well that is frustrating. frown At least you know what you were doing was working.


Leah
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BowWowMeow] #237478
06/20/12 11:40 AM
06/20/12 11:40 AM
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Massachusetts
Braverhund Offline
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You are doing a phenomenal job with Jazz, Lisa! thumbup What a super puppy she is. I love that she doesn't let you stay up too late! rofl You two are going to be a very bonded team. A friend really liked "I
ll Be Home Soon" by Patricia McConnell. Sounds like you have a good plan with Jazzy! I adore seeing her pictures, she's like this glowing sesame color! wub


Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
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Dir gehört mein Herz
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: Braverhund] #237536
06/20/12 03:38 PM
06/20/12 03:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Thanks guys!

I did read that book, and it helped me start working on a plan - it's really all about making them want to be in the crate with *whatever* than they want to be with you at that moment and making them feel safe about it, and desensitizing the triggers. Problem here, is I have very little routine in summer, and I can't repeat my morning cues throughout the day (I am not taking a shower 20 times a day or making coffee!)

I had her where she would even go in the yard without me for awhile, though I had to leave the back door open, so she could run in and check to make sure I was still here. Seems she Loves the sun, so I was using access to lying in the sun to force her to separate.

Anyway, will be starting again in about 4-7 days.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #237584
06/20/12 08:21 PM
06/20/12 08:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Patti, while I was out walking this morning, looking at her color, I was thinking that the next time I have to fill out her on a form next, I'm going to put "sesame seed" laugh


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #237602
06/20/12 10:17 PM
06/20/12 10:17 PM
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Posts: 4,952
Ohio
PositiveDog Offline
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Sesame Seed! What great name for her color.

Every day Jazzy is learning she can count on you, so maybe it won't be as difficult to get back wehre you as you might think.

One thing I would recommend when she is old enough is to do some agility training. That's a great way to build confidence and learn that distance can be good. It really helped my shy dog Sophie - we never had any intention of competing with her all her fears, but she did learn to run freely and enjoy life a little more.




Last edited by PositiveDog; 06/20/12 10:17 PM. Reason: I don't see typos until after I hit 'send'

Bonnie

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SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: PositiveDog] #237704
06/21/12 06:39 AM
06/21/12 06:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Bonnie, I hope you are right about getting back. I can see where she is anxious again around other dogs and poeple, with hackles up, but I think that once she is able to run again and express herself more naturally, I can get her past that.

I think agility would be a great idea, it really helped Indy through some of her fear issues, similar maybe to your Sophie.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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