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Separation Anxiety (Jazz) #226980
04/25/12 01:44 AM
04/25/12 01:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
I think that little Jazmine has some SA going on. Not only does she panic if I am out of her vision, she freaks when put in a crate or kennel. I have to imagine, spending 6 weeks as puppy in a shelter, and a stray before that, she's not very secure.

Today she was in a 3 ft high xpen (she is 1 ft tall at the withers and 13 lbs), and was freaking out a bit. I was about 20 feet from her, and figured as she saw me, she would settle. Instead it escalated and she scaled the pen and ran to me in a frantic state. I then switch to a airline crate - had to get my lawn mowed.

So, just wondering if folks have some pitfalls I need to avoid as I work through this, or any other helpful hints. I figure a lot of this will be just time and patience and consistency.

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 01/22/13 07:49 PM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #226988
04/25/12 01:59 AM
04/25/12 01:59 AM
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Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline
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And she's fine if you are not home, right?

Foster Nico...same thing. If I am gone, there is no destruction or apparent freaking out. When I get back, his greeting is frantic.

But he is way worse if I am home and away from where he can see me.

When I am home, and go to the bathroom (I do not allow the whole pack to accompany, first because, come on! and second, I have an elderly cat who had not lived with dogs, and she is down that hallway), he goes in a crate for safety and starts screeching/peeping. I tried to make a phone call (I always hide for those because if someone "sees" something and they all start barking it is a little unprofessional sounding) and was out of his line of vision - needless to say, the caller could hear him. Even going from one room to another and not letting him follow me...eeep! And you saw his pics with Bella - freaking out that I walked away.

If I have the other dogs in their crates, so it's safe for him to be out alone (sort of) or just him with a couple (safety again) he will just sit at the end of the hallway and wait for me.

It is not occasional, it is consistent. I had googled what I thought he was mixed with (Sheltie?) and found that they are a potential SA dog, but I had never seen an "out of sight, out of my mind" type thing before. Because he doesn't just bark and then stop, it is the whole time I am getting ready or whatever. mouthsealed http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/shelties.html

I am wondering if it's an age thing.

So do you mind if I ride your thread like a remora on a shark? Wherever he ends up....this is not a desirable trait! And it's not something you can work on easily - if you are away from them...how do you shape behavior? Or maybe it's easy and I am just blown away by the high pitched screeching in my head!

Last edited by JeanKBBMMMAAN; 04/25/12 02:03 AM.
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #226999
04/25/12 02:35 AM
04/25/12 02:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Jean, it sounds really similar. I am hoping that she is not freaking when I'm gone. I do think it takes awhile for her to settle after I leave though.

Yesterday(?) When she was so playful and hyper, I think part of it was leftover frantic from the crate.

Jean, I was hoping that you'd tell me what to do!

I did just put her in the kennel while I was doing something about 3 feet away w/o an overreaction. So maybe it's just a slow increase, I don't know! I guess we'll have to figure it out.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #227005
04/25/12 02:46 AM
04/25/12 02:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,407
Albany NY
BasiaBear Offline
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BasiaBear  Offline
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Albany NY
Does she need to be crated? Will she be destructive? Basia was a stray followed by being caged up in a shelter followed by being in a foster home with 19 other dogs (lots of anxiety there). Her foster parents told me that she could not be crated as she would immediately freak out like crazy, so I never bothered trying it or teaching her that it was okay because I didn't want to spend the money on a crate for nothing. But turns out she doesn't need one. She is non destructive.

Maybe she just has a lot of ill feelings about being caged as a result from her past. It'll take time for her to realize that she is safe with you and that she is in a loving forever home.


Danielle
~Basia
~Amadeus
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BasiaBear] #227007
04/25/12 02:50 AM
04/25/12 02:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,407
Albany NY
BasiaBear Offline
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And also, for me... basia bonded and became loyal to me in a short period of time but it took until now (so about 9-10 months) for her to trust my instincts and my reactions and act accordingly, instead of reacting based off of her uncertainty. Maybe Jazmine is just uncertain?


Danielle
~Basia
~Amadeus
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BasiaBear] #227010
04/25/12 03:17 AM
04/25/12 03:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline
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Uh, no, Lisa, no help from me. Unless what I've done is put his crate on wheels so I can drag him from room to room helps you. blush rofl I have to crate and rotate but also like a dog to be used to and be able to settle in their bed for after eating quiet time, and if they, heaven forbid, have to have surgery...

Basia....so sweet. Almost a year!

Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BasiaBear] #227011
04/25/12 03:18 AM
04/25/12 03:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,606
Eastern Oregon
Z
Zisso Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Zisso  Offline
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Posts: 2,606
Eastern Oregon
Danielle has some good points...a lot of it is time to settle in, time to become bonded to you and time to learn to trust you are not going to leave her in a bad way.

Nadia was very much like you and Jean have described. I used a voice activated tape recorder to try to record what was going on when I wasn't home. The problem with that is that it records everything fine, but there is no break in the noises from the dog to know if it was constant or occasional. I tried a LOT of different things with her along the way, but found that she was best behaved if kenneled outside when I was gone.

Once she bonded to me things got better. Training was essential to my sanity. Focusing on her behaviors as much as I did gave me the insight I needed to get through the rough spots.


Bev~mom to:
Zisso-DOB 09/16/07

R.I.P. Kiki, Nadia, Pepe, and all my other loves from years gone by.
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BasiaBear] #227025
04/25/12 05:44 AM
04/25/12 05:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Originally Posted By: BasiaBear
Does she need to be crated? Will she be destructive? Basia was a stray followed by being caged up in a shelter followed by being in a foster home with 19 other dogs (lots of anxiety there). Her foster parents told me that she could not be crated as she would immediately freak out like crazy, so I never bothered trying it or teaching her that it was okay because I didn't want to spend the money on a crate for nothing. But turns out she doesn't need one. She is non destructive.

Maybe she just has a lot of ill feelings about being caged as a result from her past. It'll take time for her to realize that she is safe with you and that she is in a loving forever home.



I think that this is part of it, but being a 6 month old puppy, I don't have many options. She's a bit into exploring everything, and being small, is find all sorts of spots to try to crawl behind (like over the VCR to get to the back where the tv and electrical wiring is!

I would be okay with an xpen, but clearly I can't keep her there either, since she is going to hurt herself.

I'm sure that she is unsure of yourself, you are right!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #227026
04/25/12 05:50 AM
04/25/12 05:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Jean...I need to get me some wheels wink

Bev, the tape recorder is a good idea. I think it would set me at ease, to know that she is settling hopefully soon after I leave. I think with fresh batteries, my digital recorder will record for something like 6 hours. Oh my, I would be afraid to leave her outside kenneled, if just for the noise that she makes, but here we have snakes and stuff that I worry about.

I have a crate that has one of those pheromone calming inserts, and used that today, which seemed a little bit better, but I also moved the crate into this smaller area that we've been staying in, so who knows. Will have to think of what else I might try - I have on order remedies to detox from the vaccinations, so one thing at a time.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #227045
04/25/12 10:33 AM
04/25/12 10:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Good_Karma  Offline
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Belfast, NY
When our two were pups, we used an MP3 player to record them when we were gone.


Leah
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: Good_Karma] #227050
04/25/12 11:32 AM
04/25/12 11:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,032
MA
shepnterrier Offline
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shepnterrier  Offline
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Posts: 2,032
MA
My foster puppy, too. The high pitched screaming was unnerving, as was her distress. Patricia McConnell has a neat, short booklet with good advice:
"I'll be home soon"
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/product/dog-separation-anxiety

Her puppy primer is also excellent:
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/product/the-puppy-primer
As are all of her books, incl. these short manuals for the busy owner:
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/category/dog-training-books
If you order from Amazon (Affiliate link), I think if you order 4 you get the 4th one free.

One tool from her book is to give the dog a highly valuable chew treat and then immediately leave. Come back shortly and take the treat away. Lesson: This super treat (marrow bone, extra yummie stuffed Kong, etc) is available only while you are at a distance that triggers the distress response. Be that out of the room, down the hallway, or out of the house.

If you can identify any triggers such as taking the phone or keys, you can desensitize by taking them while rewarding puppy, and then not proceeding to make a call of go out of the door.

With previous dogs I found that building confidence by training can resolve the issue. And lots of playing together always helps bonding. But with the current foster, I have to use more tools.


Sarah
Chip vom Dog Pound, border terrior, Director of Rodent Control, CGC
Elly von Rescue, GSD, CGC, HI(C)
Captain Jack, Mama Blue, Little Orca, Bübchen, Tux, Cherub (pocket lions)

Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: shepnterrier] #227243
04/26/12 03:44 AM
04/26/12 03:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,846
Wisconsin
Wisc.Tiger_Val Offline
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Wisc.Tiger_Val  Offline
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Wisconsin
Lisa I was going to suggest the DAP plug in. Another thought is part of this is visual stimulation, the dogs got all excited in the pound when someone came to look at them and had to compete with all the other dogs for attention. So she sees you and goes back into pound mode. Raya was and can still be that way at times. I am lucky she isn't a chewer because I just throw a sheet over her crate, she is OK if she hears me but when she first came her she would go a bit nuts when she saw me. Now it only happens if she is on overload.

You might want to go to some thrift stores and buy some small kid shirts and just try a t-short on her and see what she does. Like an anxiety wrap.

She also sounds like a good candidate for working some T-Touch on her.

I wouldn't want to not have her crate trained, if you want to do any type of sport the dogs have to be crated.


Val da Tiger

Fuzzybutt the cat.
Neilla the Big White puppy.

RIP Cheyenne - AKA: Digger, CheyChey Girl, Cheyenne Large and In charge. 2/16/02 - 2/27/16
RIP Raya - AKA: Raz-a, Ray a Sunshine, RayBestos, the little one, Silly Girl. 9/21/05 - 6/27/14
RIP Lakota - AKA: Bubba, Big Boy, BooBoo (the other part of the Binky and BooBoo team). 1/19/03-9/19/2011
RIP DeeDee - AKA: DD Poo, Little Bit, Binky (part of the Binky and Booboo team) 6/23/02-6/20/11
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: Wisc.Tiger_Val] #227261
04/26/12 05:07 AM
04/26/12 05:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Sarah, thanks for the booklet recommendations. I have a number of hers, but not the specific two that you mentioned. It's been years since I read a training book all the way through - been out of the loop!

Val, I had thought about ordering a thundershirt, then didn't - this was before all this became apparent. Those thundershirts I like in general. I willl have to look at the DAP.

I hadn't thought about the visual aspect of it, and it makes complete sense. As I went back to say goodbye at the shelter, since she had to be spayed the next day, her and her kennel mate were pushing each other out of the way to get higher and to be seen. I should also add that going to a shelter just breaks my heart...

I took her to work today, and she is getting better about not freaking out in the crate in the car, having gone a few places so far where good things happened AND we return here where she goes nuts for awhile, I'm thinking to be relieved that this is where we came back to. It really takes her awhile to "come down" from either me returning, or both of us returning here.

This morning, instead of leaving her in the crate downstairs (that is too large), I am using a borrowed crate for now that is okay length wise, but a touch short for my leggy girl, and I put that outside the bathroom door and I left the door open while I took a shower. She still couldn't see me behind the curtain, but she didn't yelp once, even when I was out and walking down the hall getting dressed and reading, but I couldn't push it too far.

Once I don't have to deal with these spay sutures and cone, hopefully I will be able to leave goodies and rewards to help witb this.

Guess we'll see what happens next...


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: MaxaLisa] #227267
04/26/12 07:09 AM
04/26/12 07:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
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That booklet is great--that's what I used when I adopted Rafi and he had SA. I was unable to leave him at all b/c he was hurting himself in the crate and I would come home and he was hysterical--drooling, hyperventilating, etc.

He did ok in the back of my truck (probably because he travelled in it for 7 hours from his foster home) so I left him in there for the first couple of months he was with me. In the house I let him follow me everywhere until he learned the stay command. Then I would use the stay command so that he got used to being separated from me for a few minutes in the house.

Once I finished McConnell's protocol Rafi did great. I left him loose and he was fine. I think it took 7 weeks. He has also travelled quite a bit with me and stayed in different houses and does ok now (but he was a little iffy with that at first).

I still don't make a big deal out of comings and goings.


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: Separation Anxiety [Re: BowWowMeow] #227401
04/26/12 09:26 PM
04/26/12 09:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,939
Ohio
PositiveDog Offline
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Sometimes I think we are too quick to think SA when maybe it is just a stage or reaction to so many changes.

I also think they pick up on our fears more easily than we think they might. Keep an upbeat and positive attitude and don't be hesitant about leaving Jazzy, whether for a few ours or just to go out of sight for a few minutes.

As Ruth said, make your comings and goings very low key and matter of fact. Especially upon return I would not even make eye contact. Go about your business for a few minutes, going in and out of the room with no words.

After a few minutes it will be like you never left and you can more easily and calmly connect again with Jazzy.

When, leaving give a special treat or toy, tell her "I'll be back soon" and just go. (Repetition is a great teacher as you know - she will learn that "I'll be back" means to settle in and wait for your return.) Assume they she be fine and she probably will be. If she does "scream" when you are out of sight, don't return until it is quiet. Last thing you want to do is make that work for her. rofl

I am not at all discounting real SA. I think that is tragic and the dog must have such fear and need major help. frown

Shelter dogs have so little contact and one on one and may have come very sad pasts - she may just be afraid it will all go away. She will soon learn you are dependable and will trust you to return to her.

Just my 2c


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
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