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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma] #236500
06/15/12 11:35 PM
06/15/12 11:35 PM
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Ohio
PositiveDog Offline
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Poor clueless pet owner to think that. WDJ has a great article about that subject this month.

Rally good one if you have time to read it. thumbup


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: PositiveDog] #236506
06/15/12 11:52 PM
06/15/12 11:52 PM
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Posts: 4,067
Syracuse, NY
DancingCavy Offline

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Oh if only that were true. Perhaps then Risa would be able to overcome more of her fears. . . (Granted, I didn't 'raise her' until she was 2.5 years old.)

Certainly, with all the work I've done, Risa has become more social and less phobic. But, despite all the work I've done, she is still not very social and still phobic. She is who she is. Part of it is how she was raised (not well-socialized I'd bet) and the other part is how she's wired. Experiences can only go so far to 'change' who she is.


~Jamie~
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Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: DancingCavy] #236513
06/16/12 12:58 AM
06/16/12 12:58 AM
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Grakira Offline
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Think you all would like this blog post by Suzanne Clothier smile

http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/perfectly-normal

If only it was how you raised them...maybe my Vigo wouldn't be a shy, fearful dog!


Melissa
Vigo von der Gauss (Vigo) CGC, CGC-A
Vendetta vom haus Huro (Fawkes)
Akira z Khaos (Kira) CGC, CGC-A
UCH Qahlua vom haus Huro (Ayla) CGC, CGC-A
Rest in Peace, Amazing Grace 2/10/02 to 2/20/13

http://www.amazinggracerawpetfood.com/

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Grakira] #236526
06/16/12 02:36 AM
06/16/12 02:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline OP
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Great article. I am loving reading this thread. So many good points! And I think it sets up dogs and people to fail. And gets away from the biology of an animal. Which we have too.

When I was getting inquiries for a foster that needed a fence, people asked will they grow out of it and I was like...what? And they said, with training, won't he be able to not need a fence...and I was like yes, magically, the fact that he will follow his nose INTO A WALL, will stop when he's 2. I think it was Dyllie. Who has a fence. smile

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #236555
06/16/12 05:52 AM
06/16/12 05:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,964
Victoria, Australia
Qyn Offline
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Qyn  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
This is a very interesting discussion - thanks for raising this, Jean.

Mostly, anyone seeing a litter of pups will notice the different temperaments within a litter even from a young age and, to me, that alone suggests that not all pups will respond exactly the same way to the same training methods. But I think that, as individuals, people do not train or treat each dog exactly the same way, no matter their intentions. As within human families and other relationships, people have favourites and will modify their behaviour according to the responses they get back from a dog during training and other interactions. This, together with the persons own temperament and level of experience, influence the training and relationship with each different dog (many other factors like health, age and emotions may also have impact too). We also learn from each dog we have experience with whether they are our own or someone else's dog and modify our methods as we learn additional training tools.

Unfortunately, there are dog and human mismatches all the time and that is the basis of most problems in my opinion. Of course, there are dogs that need specific types of owners/handlers and training but I think there are few dogs that are unredeemable however the odds of the right owner being found by every dog is sadly not skewed in the dogs favour. I don't think there are any one size fits all but I do think we are very fortunate that most dogs do fit into our families with mostly manageable and often wonderful results - why else would we keep going back and adding these animals to our lives.


Alison
~~~~~~~~~~
Nix (derivative of Phoenix) Black GSD born 6 June 2011 (Gotcha day 9 Dec 2013)

Quynne gsdhalo - Black Female GSD - Sept 29, 2004 - 11 Nov 2013 Deeply missed

If you don't agree with me ... you are just not listening well enough. smile
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Kayos] #236577
06/16/12 01:26 PM
06/16/12 01:26 PM
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CA
debbieg Offline
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debbieg  Offline
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Anyone who has seriously raised more then one dog knows this is not true. Even from the same litter pups are genetically different.

.

It takes a lot to screw up good genetics, and it takes a lot of work to bring the best out of bad genetics ( and sometimes the best is still not very good)

The only way I agree with "It's all in how you raise them" is that Dogs of different temperaments need to be raised differently.One size does not fit all.

Dogs of different temperaments need to be raised differently. My Eli was a soft/ sensitive dog. He responded to positive training and very light corrections often just my voice. Anything harder would shut him down.

Benny on the other hand needs a much stronger hand, the occasional "come to Jesus" meeting just to get his attention.

We must raise each dog according to who the dog is.


Debbie

Benedict GSD 4/13/09 http://www.dogster.com/dogs/1007494
Annie ABPT 4/11/09
Jake Borzoi 12/3/09

Waiting at the Bridge
Eli
Chopper
Raphael
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: debbieg] #236618
06/16/12 09:20 PM
06/16/12 09:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Mary Jane Offline
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Just to offer what I understand is the biology (I may be mistaken).

Dogs have been genetically engineered by people for centuries, selecting individuals for breeding for physical traits and for behavioral characteristics. From what I know, there is literally no other organism in which human intervention has created such diversity. For instance, dogs, on average, may weigh 35lb, but it would be a very unusual Yorkie or a very unusual Mastiff who weighed 35lb. In just the same way, dog breeds differ in their behaviors. Most livestock guardians are more independent than most herding dogs, so you can predict how many, not all, individuals will behave in some respects with no input from their owner at all. This is all easier to understand with regard to pure-bred dogs, but the same thing applies to any dog.

It's simply inconsistent with the facts that dog owners account for most of their dog's behaviors. Of course, owners have influence. But dogs start with a lot of hard-wired behaviors, that we might modify.

Mary Jane

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Mary Jane] #236633
06/16/12 10:59 PM
06/16/12 10:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,160
West Bay RI
SunCzarina Offline
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West Bay RI
Since I don't want my head to pop off, I'm not reading it rofl

Nature vs nurture is the oldest argument in the dog world.

It's in Morgan's nature to be aggressive, not with her family because her nurture is NO WE DON"T DO THAT. Doesn't mean she won't come on too strong with people who aren't family.

My latest let's see what nature does case, the little shepherd girl who lives on the corner of the next block. Perhaps it sums it all up to say they're pick up the little dog when it acts up people.

Bella is the oldest son's pup, she's 9 months old. He's like 11. The only resource he has for raising this dog is ME when his little sister comes over to play with my daughter. The other day I was blowing Otto's coat out on the sidewalk and he was LOL blown away by the fur. I laughed because Otto's a close coat and maybe it's his DDR blood but he does not grow that much undercoat. Little Bella's a long coat.

She's a darling pup, of her own nature because the kid certainly has no clue. The mother is nice enough and loves the dog but she's a purse dog woman. The father passed away. The grandmother lives with them, she's country folk, let the dog run loose... So Bella's often on my front lawn visiting Otto (he hates that)

Bella, she's so beautiful. I think she's showline. They dont' know.


-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: SunCzarina] #237020
06/18/12 06:36 PM
06/18/12 06:36 PM
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Liesje Offline
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You cannot change the genetics. In Schutzhund we are always told that in a stressful situation (like a good trial with some real pressure from the helper) the dog will revert to it's genetics, it's foundation training, and it's later training and proofing, in that order. The way I see it is that genetics will determine where along a spectrum of a given trait that a dog might fall, but nurture/training/socialization can pin-point more precisely where within the confines of genetics the dog actually falls. However nurture/training/socialization cannot push a dog outside of the boundaries of their genetics. This means the same dog might end up differently depending on who owns it but never outside of the inherited genes.



I have witnessed enough anecdotal proof that I will not be convinced otherwise (and likewise, I used to believe that nurture had a lot more influence than I currently believe). For example, I've seen dogs that lived in a kennel from 6weeks to over a year old with no training, no socialization come out of that kennel and within days be very happy and stable, integrated with their human and dog pack. I've seen dogs that were neglected and abused act as though they've never known an enemy. I've also seen (and own) dogs that have had every advantage from birth act fearful and skittish or show inappropriate thresholds for aggression or flight/flight reaction.

Last edited by Liesje; 06/18/12 06:40 PM.
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Qyn] #237599
06/20/12 09:55 PM
06/20/12 09:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 427
Maryland
Leesa Offline
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Leesa  Offline
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Posts: 427
Maryland
I do believe that in a lot of dogs, people (owners) have screwed them up because of the way they've raised them, don't understand their behaviors, traits, etc.. Unfortunately I see it all to often and have lived with it first hand.. Yes, genetics also plays a part in this.. But, even dogs with good genetics if raised incorrectly can have problems and become nightmares..


Leesa~

Chaos v. Wildhaus, SchH2,OB3 (HOT) Forever in my heart ~ Bismark v. Wildhaus, SchH1, TR1 (HOT) ~ Kougar v. Wolfstraum, IPO 1, CGC (HOT) ~ Oberon v. Wildhaus, BH ~ starting to grow up!
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Leesa] #238331
06/24/12 01:16 AM
06/24/12 01:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 35
Iowa
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chelle Offline
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Iowa
Interesting topic. I can't count how many times I've heard someone say, "It's all in how they're raised."

I used to believe that far more than I do now.

What made a believer out of me are the two littermates I have. One came home at 11 weeks. He showed fearful tendencies quickly. I worked so hard to socialize him. Went everywhere! Did every single thing I could -- outings several ++ times per week. Multiple classes, exposure, exposure, exposure. It did help tremendously but I'll never call him "cured." There's no curing! It's his baseline tendency. Had I not done all that? I think he'd be a real hot mess of a dog. frown (That's where I think nurture comes into play. That all that work helped, but only "helped." Didn't/can't change what the dog *is*.)

His littermate brother came here at 10 months. He'd been in a backyard all his life. He sure had wildman issues, as you can imagine, but he is such a different dog. He is more affectionate and has a far "sweeter" type of disposition, in spite of living outside and neglected of companionship for the majority of his life.

I would've expected the backyard dog to be the fearful dog, not the highly socialized one. I suppose it could be argued that he is now just thriving on getting the human contact he wasn't getting.

I don't know.. but I've found it very interesting. They are far more different than alike, and I don't credit that huge difference entirely to raising.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #242397
07/12/12 10:27 PM
07/12/12 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 75
Roseville, CA
Oliver's mama Offline
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Oliver's mama  Offline
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Posts: 75
Roseville, CA
I FINALLY understand this rescue we adopted --- her parents were Jeffrey Dahmer & JANE Wayne Gacy!!!! That is the only explanation for this beautiful, BYB by-product that's physically beautiful but emotionally nutso.

And, if I ever find the WOMAN who abused her, well - she better run!


Ziva-2 yrs. Rescued 08-31-10
Feline Rescues (All Housecats):
Oliver-16 yrs
Egger-14 yrs
Sam-8 yrs
Hanna-6 yrs
Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Oliver's mama] #242652
07/14/12 01:55 AM
07/14/12 01:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline OP
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JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline OP
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rofl

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Qyn] #249624
08/27/12 02:01 AM
08/27/12 02:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 130
A
AllMyShepherds Offline
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Just like people, I think, that it's some of both.

Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Oliver's mama] #249869
08/28/12 05:49 PM
08/28/12 05:49 PM
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Posts: 11,674
Albuquerque, NM
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
Kayos  Offline

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Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: Oliver's mama
I FINALLY understand this rescue we adopted --- her parents were Jeffrey Dahmer & JANE Wayne Gacy!!!! That is the only explanation for this beautiful, BYB by-product that's physically beautiful but emotionally nutso.

And, if I ever find the WOMAN who abused her, well - she better run!


Or her head will pop off! rofl

I am happy to see this thread active again. Now I have Lydi home and at a week short of 5 months, she is a tick shy. Not bad, very workable. I realized this when we saw her at the breeders but it did not stop me from taking her home. Her brothers were not, they were very outgoing. Same genetics (nature).

With good socialization I believe we can turn the corner with her (nurture). That said, she will never be an outgoing dog I do not think, but she is a GSD, not a golden retriever.

I actually hope that when her adult teeth come in she may be a little less cautious.

I do believe our rearing of the dogs plays a large role in how they turn out but you have to start with good nerve which can vary from pup to pup within a litter.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DJ,HT,TKN,TC,CGCU 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
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