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Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7] #208461
01/26/12 05:28 PM
01/26/12 05:28 PM
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SF Bay Area
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Originally Posted By: cassadee7
The instructor said the sniffing was probably from stress; I wonder myself if it is just because we are the last class of the night and the mat is covered in microscopic bits of treats.


I agree, not all sniffing is stress related. Halo was always way more distracted and sniffy in a class than anywhere else, and I'm positive that it's because there's a reasonable expectation of finding food on the floor there and there isn't out on our walks at the lake, which is rife with all manner of interesting distractions. Well, unless we're in an area where the geese have been, and then she is ALL OVER the goose poop,lol!

Look at the dog's demeanor, I think you'll be able to tell the difference. Halo wasn't showing any signs of stress in class, but I could practically see the "oh, look that could be FOOD!!!!" text bubble pop up over her head. Every little speck on the floor had to be investigated to see if it might be edible.

And when she comes out of the crate at flyball she HAS to check out the grass, nose buried deep to breathe in all the interesting odors. Once we get started she's focused and intense, but if we're standing there doing nothing for a minute or two she's using her nose.


Cava 1/6/18

Keefer 8/25/05

Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18
Flyball: ONYX, TF-III

Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08
Forever would have been too short

Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7] #208464
01/26/12 05:30 PM
01/26/12 05:30 PM
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Ruthie Offline
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Originally Posted By: cassadee7
I have tried the "being more exciting" thing, jumping around being happy with a high voice, being more animated, and she mostly tilts her head and looks at me like I lost my mind.


Sounds like her mama! smile You don't have to act goofy to be engaging, although with some dogs this is a great way to do it. You know how if you look at your dog and say "What do want?" they get all excited? It is because you have created the expectation that something might happen. Think of how you can do that with your body. Do a test... Next time you heel with Saber stiffen your body and act like you are marching to go get your favorite dessert and you are really happy about it. Watch the difference in her.


Amy
Bison (Indo Vom Triton) CGC
Grizzly vom Buchonia
RIP- Moose, Gator, Bear

My Dog/God blog
Reflections on my Dog
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Ruthie] #208468
01/26/12 05:45 PM
01/26/12 05:45 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
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popcorndrink

Can't wait to see what happens!

PS - Liesje, I think my dogs like training, and get excited when we do stuff at home, or at stores, or when we are out, but I tend to not like a lot of obedience classes, so that's all on me. Too long, too much repetition, too much waiting around, too serious, I just don't have enough motivation to participate unless it's a really good class. And for a while I was in weekly classes for about 5 years - I think I burned out. But I do the routines home and out and about, just, and enjoy the training parts.

Last edited by JeanKBBMMMAAN; 01/26/12 05:50 PM.
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Ruthie] #208469
01/26/12 05:47 PM
01/26/12 05:47 PM
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Liesje Offline
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Yep, puff out your chest and march when you heel! If you are worried about her, you are probably slightly hunched and dropping your left shoulder. This causes stress b/c of your body and "pushes" the dog into a lagging position. In SchH our trainer tells us to march forward whether our dog is there or not. Don't inhibit your pace either. Most GSDs need a nice pace to look their best. My "normal" pace is faster than a lot of AKC peoples' "fast" pace.

Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje] #208472
01/26/12 05:52 PM
01/26/12 05:52 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
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The one class I did love, the trainer made us move faster than our normal pace for the regular heel. She said they have 4 legs people, and you are boring them with your 2! And that really got the interest up in all the dogs. It was fun to watch them perk up!

Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje] #208476
01/26/12 06:03 PM
01/26/12 06:03 PM
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Michigan
Ruthie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Liesje
Yep, puff out your chest and march when you heel! If you are worried about her, you are probably slightly hunched and dropping your left shoulder. This causes stress b/c of your body and "pushes" the dog into a lagging position. In SchH our trainer tells us to march forward whether our dog is there or not. Don't inhibit your pace either. Most GSDs need a nice pace to look their best. My "normal" pace is faster than a lot of AKC peoples' "fast" pace.


Good advice. Best exercise for me was removing the leash in protection work and healing for bites as a reward. Bison is extremely obedient, but REALLY wants that sleeve. He knows heel well, so a perfect dog to practice this with. Without the leash as a crutch I HAD to pay attention, use presence, body language, and clear voice commands to "make him" heel. Was a fantastic learning experience for me.


Amy
Bison (Indo Vom Triton) CGC
Grizzly vom Buchonia
RIP- Moose, Gator, Bear

My Dog/God blog
Reflections on my Dog
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Ruthie] #208513
01/26/12 08:18 PM
01/26/12 08:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,662
McAlester, OK
Kayos Offline

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Kayos  Offline

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True on the pace and body language. Head up, chest back, I try to look at the dog from the corner of my eye while I am looking ahead. If you look at the ground about 10 feet in front of you can keep an eye on the dog that way. Glancing back and turning your head drops your shoulder and causes the dog to lag.

Lies I have kept lots of judges on their feet in the AKC ring as I stride out smartly. I have been run into lots of walls too. rofl

I know this class you are in Shawn and I would tell you to find another one but there is not another one. shrug At least you can keep food in a place you can jackpot her that is new, at one time that was not allowed either. I was enrolled in this class and lasted one session, Havoc was not ready to be in a class where I was not able to reinforce him with food at a high rate. Sadly, he had better obedience that the instructors dog. Young dogs learning to heel and stay in groups are under stress and need a high level of reinforcement. The instructor would rather you use praise and correction to teach the dog and that is fine for her but she leaves no room for the dog at Saber's level that still needs more reinforcement. Saber needs time to learn that praise is also reinforcementand the food is coming. So glad you can take her and jackpot her for an especially good effort. I actually think I told the instructor that no one was going to tell me how to reinforce MY dog in ANY class. End of me in that class. rofl

I think putting go sniiff on cue gives you the control over it. I think when you do this at some point you get to what Lies referred to, the dog knows when it is business because you told them so and the need tt sniff is put on the back burner. They know eventually you will let them. I always allow my dogs time to sniff at a new place. Just my preference.

I think you do a good job of weeding through all the different methods and preferences and find the best fit for you and Saber. Keep up the good work. cheers


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #208517
01/26/12 08:23 PM
01/26/12 08:23 PM
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Liesje Offline
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN


PS - Liesje, I think my dogs like training, and get excited when we do stuff at home, or at stores, or when we are out, but I tend to not like a lot of obedience classes, so that's all on me. Too long, too much repetition, too much waiting around, too serious, I just don't have enough motivation to participate unless it's a really good class. And for a while I was in weekly classes for about 5 years - I think I burned out. But I do the routines home and out and about, just, and enjoy the training parts.


True, I did find such classes rather boring after a while. I don't really ever train any of my dogs to do any one type of thing for that long all at once and it seems at these types of classes we were always expected to have our dogs out with us. For the AKC ring stuff I prefer to do drop-ins where I'm doing the training at home but can show up, try a mock ring/course, and have extra sets of eyes offer their critiques.

Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje] #208531
01/26/12 09:14 PM
01/26/12 09:14 PM
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Posts: 11,662
McAlester, OK
Kayos Offline

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I agree, I find I use the class as a place to proof but with a new person to obedience they often need the class to show them how too.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Kayos] #208540
01/26/12 09:37 PM
01/26/12 09:37 PM
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Posts: 1,699
Southern WA
cassadee7 Offline OP
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You guys are dead on! I guess it takes more than one person telling me in different ways before my light bulb goes on smile Last night the instructor said to me 3 or 4 times to pick up the pace, Saber needs to move faster, speed it up etc. she also noted that Saber was sniffing/lagging and I was slowing down, turned sideways looking over my left shoulder watching her as I tried to get her to come forward. Exactly what you guys pointed out. I am definitely going to change my body position and energy in the ways you described. She did perk up and heel better when I moved faster. smile


Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #208561
01/26/12 10:52 PM
01/26/12 10:52 PM
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Posts: 2,575
Southwest, MI
Jane Jean Offline
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
popcorndrink

Can't wait to see what happens!

PS - Liesje, I think my dogs like training, and get excited when we do stuff at home, or at stores, or when we are out, but I tend to not like a lot of obedience classes, so that's all on me. Too long, too much repetition, too much waiting around, too serious, I just don't have enough motivation to participate unless it's a really good class. And for a while I was in weekly classes for about 5 years - I think I burned out. But I do the routines home and out and about, just, and enjoy the training parts.

This is what I meant when I said obedience is boring. Classes where you are grouped together, with lots of downtime will bore a dog(and their handler).
At home or on a training field, it is much different.


Onyx
Karlo
Gambit
SweetClover3.17.94~11.24.08 Kacie 7.21.2005-5.01.2015
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Jane Jean] #208580
01/27/12 12:00 AM
01/27/12 12:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,129
Fairfield, Ca.
Schnickle Fritz Offline
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i was a slow walker, too. i was told if i am not walking fast enough the dog just looks wonky. of course, fritz is long and tall. so, i have to power walk in OB. if i am in class and it looks like i am going to run someone over i just do a loop inside the circle or outside if there is room. i find by picking up the pace the dog flows better and is more engaged with me. if you are not out of breath walking youa re walking to slow...


Have a great day!!!
NLS

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Fritz vom Banach TR1 TT RN RA BN NW1 BH 10/10/09
Cuvee' d' la Maze ORT-BCA BH 01/14/11
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: GrandJan] #208582
01/27/12 12:02 AM
01/27/12 12:02 AM
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Posts: 4,067
Syracuse, NY
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Originally Posted By: GrandJan
Itís ignoring the bad behavior until you can wrangle a way to turn it into good behavior - and you can't always adjust situations. The dog Ė and the child - has you trained.


It's not 'bad behavior' if the dog hasn't been trained to that level. If you've only ever worked on heeling at home, you cannot say your dog knows how to heel (for example). He knows how to heel in a familiar environment with minimal distractions. Unless you've practiced in many locations with a variety of distractions and made sure the dog really understands what heel means. And, if you've done that, you probably don't need to use corrections.

I think, when one resorts to corrections, they often don't take the time to consider they whys of what their dog is doing. WHY did the dog choose not to heel when I asked him to? The answer to that question tells you what you need to work harder on. Do you need to build up focus around children more? Is your cue unclear?

Just because you don't utilize corrections does not mean your dog is non-compliant or the one training you. Nor does it mean that you simply manage your dog's life so that they're never put in a situation they cannot handle. (You should do that at the beginning, but not forever.) I don't correct poor focus, sniffing, or other inattentive behaviors in my dog. I simply work harder on making what I want clear and making the exercises more fun. And I'm seeing outstanding results and a much more focused dog.


Last edited by DancingCavy; 01/27/12 12:04 AM.

~Jamie~
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Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: DancingCavy] #208588
01/27/12 12:08 AM
01/27/12 12:08 AM
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Liesje Offline
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Likewise, just because one uses corrections doesn't mean they "resorted to" it. Now I can't speak for Shawn but in my own training, there are several behaviors I train from the very beginning using corrections (or rather, pressure/escape...I'm not really sure if that's the same as a "correction" but usually the purely positive folk lump them together). I don't resort to anything in my training. I pick the tool and method depending on the behavior and the dog and that's what I use. Every great once in a while I do have to change up and if so it's because I was wrong in the first place not to use that method, not because I have a continuum of training methods and will slowly move downward if one thing doesn't work.

Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Schnickle Fritz] #208593
01/27/12 12:16 AM
01/27/12 12:16 AM
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Southwest, MI
Jane Jean Offline
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Originally Posted By: Schnickle Fritz
i was a slow walker, too. i was told if i am not walking fast enough the dog just looks wonky. of course, fritz is long and tall. so, i have to power walk in OB. if i am in class and it looks like i am going to run someone over i just do a loop inside the circle or outside if there is room. i find by picking up the pace the dog flows better and is more engaged with me. if you are not out of breath walking youa re walking to slow...

My dog is big too, and I'm short legged. So I tend to walk fast, and then I lose my dog on the turns. It is a dance for sure....I love watching someone doing obedience with such great timing, I wish I had that naturalness in me.


Onyx
Karlo
Gambit
SweetClover3.17.94~11.24.08 Kacie 7.21.2005-5.01.2015
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