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Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: Mary Jane] #215937
02/28/12 05:48 PM
02/28/12 05:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,453
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Offline
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New Milford, CT
Originally Posted By: Mary Jane
I hate statistics. Sensitivity is the fraction of true positives called positive in the test, specificity is the fraction of true negatives called negative. They are calculated differently than positive and negative predictive value-and I don't know how any of it is calculated.

This is a figure from the paper I cited showing that a ton of dogs who actually had hemangiosarcoma had TK values similar to unaffected dogs; particularly dogs with benign splenic masses for some reason.

OK, we're all nauseated now. An essay in the NY Times today by a physician questions the value of a lot of disease prevention by screening.

I just don't know.

Mary Jane


I'm not too fond of statistics either.
As far as the TK values being similar to unaffected dogs, with benign splenic masses, since TK is involved in DNA production, I'm guessing it would be elevated regardless of if the tumor were benign or malignant. To me it says you need something elsse to make it more discriminating in the evaluation.

I think what bothers me the most is that this is already a marketed product, with all these questions about how valid it actually is - at least here in our forum world.

Got a meeting to go to. blush


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: MaxaLisa] #216039
02/29/12 01:29 AM
02/29/12 01:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tara  Offline
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Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

Serum TK1 activity was significantly higher in dogs with hemangiosarcoma (HSA) than in normal dogs (mean ± SEM = 17.0 ± 5.0 and 2.01 ± 0.6, respectively), but not dogs with benign disease (mean ± SEM = 10.0 ± 3.3).
Okay, Max's was 18.5, yes, right above the average.

Using a cut-off of 6.55 U/L, TK activity demonstrated a sensitivity of 0.52, specificity of 0.93
This is a measurement that says it's actually measuring what we think it is, and not something else (like B-12 deficiency, for example?), right?


A sensitivity of 0.52 tells you that 52% of animals that have the disease are going to test positive. That means that false negative tests happen 48% of the time. Sensitivity = #True Positives / (#True Positives + #False Negatives)

A specificity of 0.93 tells you that 93% of animals that do not have the disease test negative, meaning that the false positives happen in 7% of non-diseased animals. Specificity = #True Negatives / (#True Negatives + #False Positives)

Specificity and sensitivity are related directly to the test, itself.

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

positive predictive value of 0.94
Is this the measurement that describes the "false positive"? That once you get a positive, the chances that it is false is very low?


This is the percentage of positive test results that have the disease. So in this case, 94% of positive test results actually have the disease and 6% positive test results do not have the disease. So 6% false positives. Positive predictive value = #True Positives / (#True Positives + #False Positives)

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

negative predictive value of 0.48 for distinguishing HSA versus normal.
Is this the measurement that describes the "false negative"? That once you get a negative, the chances that there is cancer might still be high?


This is the proportion of negative test results that do not have the disease, in this case 48% of the negative test results actually do not have the disease. This means 52% chance of false negatives. Negative predictive value = #True Negatives / (#False Negatives + #True Negatives)


The difference between sensitivity/specificity and positive predictive values/negative predictive values is that sensitivity/specificity are constant for a particular test whereas the predictive values are dependent on the disease characteristics and the "true prevalence" in a population.

For example a test may have a particular sensitivity/specificity but the predictive values will vary when applied to different populations (e.g. an animal not showing signs of disease (in this case, true prevalence is low) versus animal showing signs/symptoms (true prevalence may be much higher).

Does this make sense? If you want a simple example with numbers, let me know and I can write it up for you.


Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: Tara] #216858
03/03/12 09:21 PM
03/03/12 09:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline OP

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
I emailed VDI on the 26th about my concerns about the disconnect between what they say about their values and what they write in their letter, and that email I have not yet had a response. I will resend, just in case, and report back on what I learn. I haven't been able to really look at this stuff again, I have to do it at times when I am able.

I have quoted most of the VDI stuff in a new thread here: http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/216510/Veterinary_Diagnostics_Institu since this may be useful to others down the road.

I have Max's memorial thread here:
http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt..._RIP#Post216499

Miss you my boy gsdhalo


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: MaxaLisa] #235453
06/11/12 03:40 AM
06/11/12 03:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
So sad tonight.

Had to take Mom to the ER last night, she had an intestinal blockage. So far, been able to avoid surgery, and she has been admitted to the hospital and will be able to go home if she passes the food test.

She has her own room, because she has a history of ESBL bacteria, namely pathogenic E. Coli. Max's vet thought that the infection that had him was a pathogenic E. coli. I do believe that he had chronic rickettsia that I kept under control by pulsing doxy, but he couldn't handle this other infection, particularly after it had become so systemic. I'm pretty sure I brought it home in 2009 when my mom was so sick, in ICU, the hospital, then rehab, for so long. That seems to be where she picked it up. And shortly after that, Max's fistula, which was infection induced, and then time to disseminate.

Just so sad. It shouldn't have happened that way. He should have had a chance to grow old, instead of sick.

Just miss my boy a lot.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: MaxaLisa] #235464
06/11/12 04:03 AM
06/11/12 04:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,041
CA
debbieg Offline
Old Hand
debbieg  Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,041
CA
Sorry to hear this Lisa, Praying for your mom. I have been hospitalized three times with blockages and one, because the intestine has kinked into a knot, required surgery that cut two inches from my intestine.

Sorry you miss Max too. This just shows how much love he was. Better a short life full of love than a long one without.


Debbie

Benedict GSD 4/13/09 http://www.dogster.com/dogs/1007494
Annie ABPT 4/11/09
Jake Borzoi 12/3/09

Waiting at the Bridge
Eli
Chopper
Raphael
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: MaxaLisa] #235467
06/11/12 04:05 AM
06/11/12 04:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 980
TimberWolf Offline
Old Hand
TimberWolf  Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 980
hugging Lisa. Just wanted to give you hug.


...in remembrance of all Timber Wolves unjustifyably hunted down and killed for no valid reason at all.
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: TimberWolf] #235475
06/11/12 06:21 AM
06/11/12 06:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Ouch Debbie. We may not be able to avoid surgery, Dad had one in '08.

Thanks for the support, life just sucks sometimes, the way things happen. My boy didn't deserve that frown


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: MaxaLisa] #235476
06/11/12 06:31 AM
06/11/12 06:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
BowWowMeow  Offline
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Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
I hope your mom is ok, Lisa, and doesn't the surgery. That sounds incredibly painful.

And hugs for you. Your Max was a dear, dear boy.


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: BowWowMeow] #235477
06/11/12 09:01 AM
06/11/12 09:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,745
Mary Jane Offline
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Mary Jane  Offline
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Posts: 2,745
Lisa,

This is almost too much to bear. Except you will, and KW, you mother can avoid surgery and come home.

You gave us a glimpse of your last trip with Max-I can visualize some of your pictures. Pull up that or any other great time with your boy.

take care,
MJ

Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: MaxaLisa] #235480
06/11/12 10:26 AM
06/11/12 10:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,436
Massachusetts
Braverhund Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Braverhund  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,436
Massachusetts
I'm so sorry, Lisa. hugging Max was one very special, well-loved fellow. Sending healing vibes for your Mom to come home soon and feel much better.


Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
Smokey The TeddyLion, DLH purrbuddy

Dir gehört mein Herz
Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: Braverhund] #235489
06/11/12 12:29 PM
06/11/12 12:29 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,875
Queensland. Australia
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel
bianca  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,875
Queensland. Australia
hugging I'm so sorry Lisa, I have no words.

Keeping your Mum in my thoughts and hoping she can do without the surgery hugging


Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.
Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: Braverhund] #235490
06/11/12 12:29 PM
06/11/12 12:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,453
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,453
New Milford, CT
Lisa, I'm so sorry to hear that your Mom is sick. Good thoughts and prayers sent to your family for her to recover quickly and be able to go home.

grouphug

I can relate to some of what you feel about Max - I still miss Aodhán, even with 2 hellions in the house keeping things lively for us.


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: Woodreb] #235498
06/11/12 12:53 PM
06/11/12 12:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
Barb E Offline
Pooh-Bah
Barb E  Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
Sending good thoughts to you and your mom and many many many hugging


Dante - March 8, 2004 - May 06, 2017
Kaos von Wolfstraum - Oct 31, 2011

My Blog: https://barbrambling.wordpress.com/
Re: Max/hemangio...he's gone [Re: Woodreb] #235499
06/11/12 12:54 PM
06/11/12 12:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
Rescues Rule Admin
JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline
Rescues Rule Admin
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
Lisa, I hope your mom is okay and they can move things through.

If you feel badly about bringing something home to him (POSSIBLY) think of this - every day, dogs go into facilities with germs - hospitals, assisted living, shelters, and walk out with no illnesses or issues with it. That's them, direct contact. Dogs live with nurses and doctors and people who clean up the yucky stuff in these places and are exposed constantly and those who are able to do well, do. If there is something internal to the dog that does not allow them to deal with this (like people who get any cold that comes down the pike), then they cannot. And would not, even if and you never left your home and you kept them in a bubble, like my friend's WGSD, who we actually call Bubble Boy. If Max was like that...you, your mom, the hospital...wouldn't matter what or when because something would have triggered him, because that stuff is everywhere we go - grocery shopping cart handles, door knobs, cell phones...we just don't notice those things like the big things.

I like what Debbie said...we want them here FOREVER, but that certainly is the truth.


Last edited by JeanKBBMMMAAN; 06/11/12 12:57 PM.
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: MaxaLisa] #235503
06/11/12 01:06 PM
06/11/12 01:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,582
SeanRescueMom Offline
Carpal Tunnel
SeanRescueMom  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,582
Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
life just sucks sometimes, the way things happen.


Lisa, you're right, life does just suck sometimes. Thinking of you and sending lots of hugging your way.


Sean - 1998/2014
If there ever comes a day when we can't be together, keep me in your heart I'll stay there forever.
Carleton DOB unknown
Neely - 2003/2015
Gizmo -2008/2011
Neeko -1991/2005
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