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Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #193241
11/12/11 06:53 PM
11/12/11 06:53 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Originally Posted By: kelso
...
Yeah, the low WBC's frown The vet was worried about an infection. What is the dose assuming that this does help and we should complete an aggressive tx for tick disease? I know you have posted it before....


The dose recommended on the tick list, and in some of the older literature on this stuff, is 10mg/kg *twice* day, which is roughly 5 mg/lb twice a day. It's about twice what most vets will use. 8 weeks treatment and then evaluate. But that's a dog not on steroids.

I think of the steroid and abx combination as duking it out in the body to see which one will "win" and have the dominant effect in the body.

High dose steroids, moderate dose abx, no way that the abx will dominate and so you are, at best, at a stalemate, if this is infection.

In an ehrlichia-type illness, if ITP is induced, steroids are used to get platelets and red blood cell counts out of the danger zone, and then slowly weaned (while watching blood counts) as the doxy starts taking care of the infection, ultimately getting to doxy alone.

The question is whether that 8 week treatment starts when steroids are done, dunno.

Doxy at a standard dose, inhibits bacteria from growing. At a higher aggressive dose, it also has some killing action. I always get the technical terms for those things reversed!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #193264
11/12/11 11:28 PM
11/12/11 11:28 PM
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Cassidy's Mom Offline
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Get better soon, Kelso!!! hugging


Cava 1/6/18

Keefer 8/25/05

Halo 11/9/08-6/17/18
Flyball: ONYX, TF-III

Dena 9/12/04-10/4/08
Forever would have been too short

Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #193268
11/13/11 12:54 AM
11/13/11 12:54 AM
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Central Florida
arycrest Offline
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
That picture of him is STUN-NING. Wowza. That would look nice printed with that orange leaf between his paws just popping! (almost wrote pooping which...figures)

And the two of them...I am glad she has such a good job.
Ditto ... That's a beautiful picture!!! And of course Allie looks beautiful too!!! wub


Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #193343
11/13/11 07:51 AM
11/13/11 07:51 AM
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Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Originally Posted By: kelso
...
Yeah, the low WBC's frown The vet was worried about an infection. What is the dose assuming that this does help and we should complete an aggressive tx for tick disease? I know you have posted it before....


The dose recommended on the tick list, and in some of the older literature on this stuff, is 10mg/kg *twice* day, which is roughly 5 mg/lb twice a day. It's about twice what most vets will use. 8 weeks treatment and then evaluate. But that's a dog not on steroids.

I think of the steroid and abx combination as duking it out in the body to see which one will "win" and have the dominant effect in the body.

High dose steroids, moderate dose abx, no way that the abx will dominate and so you are, at best, at a stalemate, if this is infection.

In an ehrlichia-type illness, if ITP is induced, steroids are used to get platelets and red blood cell counts out of the danger zone, and then slowly weaned (while watching blood counts) as the doxy starts taking care of the infection, ultimately getting to doxy alone.

The question is whether that 8 week treatment starts when steroids are done, dunno.

Doxy at a standard dose, inhibits bacteria from growing. At a higher aggressive dose, it also has some killing action. I always get the technical terms for those things reversed!


Thank you all again, every wish and thought is so appreciated falltree

Bonnie- love the "got milk" reference! I think it does make them look quite distinguished myself smile

Jean - lol on the pooping
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile! That's how I felt with that pic. I use my iphone and Canon powershot alot for pics I want to take, but the Nikon D60 always gets the shots I end up loving! The leaf was not planned! Kelso is a GREAT poser smile

Lisa-

I think it is bacteriostatic (inhibiting) v. bactericidal (killing)?

So...are you thinking that if we wait until the next labs (in 2 weeks) and they are IMPROVED we should start the aggressive dose? (seeing the addition of doxy again as the cause for the change in labs?)

That is actually what I feel like - that we are at a stalemate. Frustrating, can't imagine how Kelso must feel. frown He is good, but not "Kelso" not sure how to describe it.

I was going to post about this in a seperate thread but if anyone reads this that happens to have to have their dog on long term meds such as steroids and antibiotics like doxy....our vet calls in the prescriptions to walmart and we get them off " the $4 dollar list." I think it is neat you can get the generic meds for dogs from the Walmart pharmacy for a discounted cost as well...if you go through the vet it might be triple the cost or so.

The script says "K9" at the top, kindof funny!


-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #193345
11/13/11 08:02 AM
11/13/11 08:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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Also wanted to mention

the lab report also said that monocytes were low: 1 ref (3-10)
Eosinophils low: 0 LOW ref (2-10)
absolute monocytes 46 LOW ref (150-1350)
absolute eosinophils 0 LOW ref (100-1250)

Why does he have NO eosinophils on multiple reports?

and also commented that neutrophils appear slightly toxic (STILL?!??!?!?!?!?)

and "few reactive lymphs present"

That looks more like infection to me?


-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #193347
11/13/11 09:38 AM
11/13/11 09:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,511
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
It really does sound like infection to me, but there's nothing there, that I know of (and there's a lot I don't know!) that distinguishes between autoimmune or infection. I believe that toxic neutrophils may occur for a variety of reasons, something about they are not forming right as they are pumped out of the bone marrow - I don't know enough to say anything with confidence about that.

Monocytes, can be a marker of inflammation, and eosinophils for allergies, and both may be suppressed from the pred. I have absolutely no idea how to interpret blood counts for a dog on pred. I'm having that problem with Max here.

Reactive lymphocytes...Max had those in his paw, as well as reactive bone....vet and I just looked at each other and shrugged our shoulders. Pathology report wasn't much more helpful.


Originally Posted By: kelso

Lisa-

I think it is bacteriostatic (inhibiting) v. bactericidal (killing)?

LOL, yes that's it, but ask me in about three minutes, and I will have forgotten again rofl

Quote:
So...are you thinking that if we wait until the next labs (in 2 weeks) and they are IMPROVED we should start the aggressive dose? (seeing the addition of doxy again as the cause for the change in labs?)

That is actually what I feel like - that we are at a stalemate. Frustrating, can't imagine how Kelso must feel. frown He is good, but not "Kelso" not sure how to describe it.

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Though, I'm not sure I would wait the two weeks, you may still end up in a stalemate and have wasted two weeks, so to speak.

It's too risky to reduce the pred without knowing, but there is no reason to not increase the doxy. Of course, you could go with seeing what happens in the next two weeks as a first step.

Bottom line, is you really don't know anything more than you did at the start of this frown frown frown


Just putting these here in case we need them....

Previous labs:
http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt...cent#Post187832

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...;hl=en_US#gid=0


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #193349
11/13/11 10:23 AM
11/13/11 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,511
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
Went back and read a couple of the first posts. Had forgotten about the fever. Sure is hard for me to think it's not infection....


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #193396
11/13/11 08:40 PM
11/13/11 08:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
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Hollysmom Offline
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Hollysmom  Offline
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My girl ran a fever for quite sometime, she was on antibiotics for about 3 months total.
I am glad your vet is keeping the pred up, even though you get to the point that you want them gone. He will get his muscle tone and such back once the pred is gone, I promise you. I will try to find some of my girls medical records and see what her blood results were showing during her time on pred.
Will let you know when I locate them (we are getting ready to move and stuff is packed.)

Day by day, week by week, month by month. It seems endless and your hopes get so high, then they just crash down.
My thoughts are with you

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Hollysmom] #194255
11/17/11 09:02 PM
11/17/11 09:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,511
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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When does kelso go back for blood tests? Just curious.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #194602
11/19/11 04:26 AM
11/19/11 04:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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Kansas
greet


He is going this Friday, after Thanksgiving turkeytalk I am off so am glad to get to go with him for once!!

The only bad thing about that is then it is monday before we know anything.... or maybe they will call on sat as they are open I think.

Thanks again Hollysmom, it does help very much that you have been through this sort of thing. I remember reading that they can get a fever with IMHA/ITP

And Lisa I can't say thanks enough to you either pilgrims


-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #194811
11/20/11 08:16 AM
11/20/11 08:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,511
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
I'm glad that you will be there for the blood draw this time smile

Hey, not sure if it's still open, not sure if you would want to pursue this, but was cleaning out some old emails, and someone had sent me this many months ago. Looks like it's a law firm if you google the email address.

Quote:
If your dog experienced health problems or irregularities after receiving a rabies, a distemper, or a DHLPP vaccine or you had your dog euthanized as a result of issues following such vaccinations, please contact Douglas Hyman at dhyman@hymanlippitt.com or John Bliss at jbliss@hymanlippitt.com with the information. They will contact you promptly to follow up.

http://dogshowpoop.blogspot.com/2011/03/vaccine-alert.html


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #197224
12/04/11 03:43 AM
12/04/11 03:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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Just a quick update smile

I do not have the actual report from last week's labs yet but the vet said they are sooo close to normal (blood counts) but she still wants him on the same dose of pred since they are not yet "normal" So he will remain on the 50 mg pred....recheck again right before Christmas. snowing

All I want for Christmas is a pred dose decrease! Understand and glad that the vet wants us going slow though.

Continuing doxy...need to discuss the dosage at some point.

His weight is still trending down a bit, have been trying to get in extra food here and there and snacks. Also tried satin balls. I think alot of it is the muscle wasting? frown Will have to go back in this thread and look at all the great recipes you all gave me. It certainly is not his appetite as he could eat the house right now with the steroids.

Hope everyone is doing well!


-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #197233
12/04/11 06:51 AM
12/04/11 06:51 AM
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Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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And a pic with a new (and now destroyed) cute toy from his friend smile
Thanks Gayle smile



-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #197246
12/04/11 10:49 AM
12/04/11 10:49 AM
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Victoria, Australia
Qyn Offline
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Great picture and thanks for the update. Except for the weight loss it does sound very, very positive. thumbup


Alison
~~~~~~~~~~
Nix (derivative of Phoenix) Black GSD born 6 June 2011 (Gotcha day 9 Dec 2013)

Quynne gsdhalo - Black Female GSD - Sept 29, 2004 - 11 Nov 2013 Deeply missed

If you don't agree with me ... you are just not listening well enough. smile
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Qyn] #197281
12/04/11 05:28 PM
12/04/11 05:28 PM
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Emoore Offline
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So glad to hear that his blood work is almost back to normal, and I love the picture of him with his little dalmatian! Fingers crossed for a Christmas Pred decrease!


Rocky vom Backyard- 10 years old
Kopper vom Felssclucht Bach - 16 months old

At the Bridge:
Cash van der Animal Shelter 2006-2010
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