Hi there,

I would please like some honest opinions mostly from those that have "been there and done that." Pretty much this is a "would you do this or not" type question. If you would - what suggestions would you make to help it work?

We did a meet and greet with a young female the other day that we'd really like to adopt.

First we did Nissa and the female, Nissa is 4+ this new female is 18mos to 2yo and pretty much ignores other dogs and when not ignoring she causes no problems with them. We had absolutely no problems w/the 2 of them. After awhile leashed we put them together unleashed in a very large pen and just observed. They had no issues with one another. Both pretty much ignored and when near one another they were ok together.

So then we got out Macho Man - ugh. Riley at least used to do pretty darn good with other females, got along great with my daughter's and a couple of female fosters we did. Because the new female seems to have pretty much the same disposition as Nissa we were fairly confident this work out.

Things started out going ok, hubby and I believe we did everything right. Side by side walks on opposite sides of a VERY long country driveway. Very quiet, no other distractions. Nissa was left in the pen so each dog met her individually first. Moved closer up and down the drive, still no issues. Let her butt sniff him first and I kept his head facing forward, we wanted to do this slow so no direct eye contact for awhile. Then he got to butt sniff for a few seconds. Back to walking, we repeated this scenerio 3-4X. Each pair walked circles around the other pair with the dog in a sitting position a few times.

After awhile, we put him in a down and let Nissa out of the pen and she just kinda wandered around us. Hubby had Riley on a short leash, I had the female on a short leash. I first stood about 5-6ft away and we just chatted quietly as I slowly inched a little closer every few min. Riley was calm and remained in his down. When I got about 3ft away Nissa came and sat down on my left foot, her back to the other female and more or less side-back to Riley. Think of it as a triangle. Other female sat at my right side a little bit behind my knee and we were at slight angle to Riley. Chatting continued, everyone calm and our hopes were raised just a little bit but we knew this wasn't over yet and could go either way. I couldn't believe how calm *I* was - not even one butterfly inside <g> I was pretty dang proud of me

At about the 3ft mark I decided to just hang out talking and not move any closer for a longer period of time. All was going great! I leaned over to look at the female and give her a little pat on the head, told her she was a good girl. She leaned forward to sniff Nissa and then I heard the growl and at that same instant he was up off the ground and coming at her. It happened so freaking fast but I managed to keep her from getting nailed as hubby got him under control and down again.

So, we put new female back in the pen and our two in the back of our SUV.

Riley has a huge jealousy/possessiveness/protective problem regarding me. We've all had enough of it and are now taking steps to try to redirect it. We had been thinking this was simply over-protectiveness and were dealing with it that way but we are now going to broaden our view and I can no longer ignore what some of you folks have mentioned within the past few months. Our meet & greet told us we have to get tougher about me showing him who's boss and that he doesn't make certain decisions on his own. He's going to have less freedom at home and on and on.

Anyway ... tonight it came to me that bringing her home *might* just work under certain circumstances & guidelines and that's where you all come in. What do you think of my still-forming-in-my-head plan? This would be on a pre-adoption foster basis so if it didn't work, we would not be bound to keep her.

Some people have suggested that due to his irratic, unpredictable ways that I look into anxiety type medications such as Prozac so I will be calling the vet in the morning. Much as I don't want to medicate him, we have to do something and if medicating him will take his edge off so he can learn new ways of handling things then so be it. It sure beats some of the other alternatives.

First step would be the 3-way crate shuffle for a few days (weeks?) with only one dog at a time out of their crates. Riley can get used to her being in the house safely that way.

Question Am I tormenting him and making it worse by letting him see me with another dog besides Nissa or am I showing him I can still love him with a new dog besides Nissa in the house?

Step two would be allowing the two females time out of crates together, short at first then longer after I see how it goes one day at a time.

Riley & Nissa can have their time out of the crates together as well during this entire time frame. I don't want them to lose the fantastic relationship they have together.

After a couple of weeks of this (longer if necessary) the only way Riley gets to interact with her is muzzled and when hubby is home. I will not do this on my own.

Question: Will dogs fight if they're muzzled? Or do they feel "handicapped" so they don't interact that way?

I truly believe his off the wall reaction was jealousy & possessiveness. I also think although not obvious to a human, this female was a bit stressed because she'd become very attached to her new temp Mom and preferred her company to ours of course - we were complete strangers. So, she was probably sending off anxiety type signals that he picked up on.

Ok, so am I crazy? Has anyone ever made this work or is a bad initial meeting the way to expect and ongoing relationship would be? He gets along soooo well with Nissa that I just can't imagine he'd continue to be nasty to her after a periodo f adjustment but he's made a liar out of me before, too.

Thanks for any and all replies.

if you teach him not to be possesive of you, he will no longer feel the need to be tomented. you will have given him a different job. he will respect you enough to let you choose who will be near you.

i doubt that they see it that way (dogs) . children yes, dogs no. if you are still feeding and interacting with him he should not feel neglected.

i think that it would work. sounds like alot of work, but i definately would do the crate rotations. in fact you may find your dog will give you better focus (not nessesarily like OB focus- but perhaps if you do that, that too.) with having to share you and having to spend less time with only you.

one thing, i would NOT have put the dogs away aftter the growl/lunge incident. i would have started walking calmly again. and just continued to have the dogs around each (on leash) other while haveing space and nuetural territory around them. you may have already reenforced to your dog that if i growl lunge the new dog dissappears (even if you put your dogs away - he might still have seen it that way)

a new dog, what fun. good luck!

Dogs will still fight if muzzled.

Could this work out? Possibly. But it's going to take a LOT of work on your part to make it happen. Are you willing to crate and rotate for (possibly) months while you work on building positive associations between the other dogs? Are you willing to accept the fact that you may never be able to have all three dogs out together at once? That you may have to crate and rotate for life?

If you don't have the book Fight! by Jean Donaldson, I would get it and read it right away. It outlines, step by step, a protocol you can use to help dogs feel more comfortable with other dogs around their stuff. But it's going to take a lot of work, time, and patience to do it.

Risa is also a resource guarder and she will prevent other dogs from interacting with me. She does not guard because she thinks she is in charge. She guards because she is not a confident dog. Risa believes she will lose her resource if she doesn't protect it. A confident dog knows he can get it back. If/when I bring another dog into our home, I know I'm going to have to do a lot of work to make sure everyone has a positive relationship with each other. And that means a LOT of management. Toys put away, not allowing dogs to get in a situation where Risa's guarding behavior could show up, etc. I plan on crating and rotating for at LEAST a month and setting up special training sessions when the dogs get some awesome goodie for being around each other. I'm also going to have to show Risa that the other dog getting attention benefits her (by rewarding good behavior OR simply giving her something amazing when I pet the other dog). It is NOT going to be easy and, despite my best efforts, things could fail.

It's all what you're willing to risk.

Is this fair to the foster? If the foster could be in a less stressful home where she could thrive?

I've known people that had to rotate dogs forever. Sometimes a matter of life and death. It's not a fun way to live, for anyone. I've never had 3 dogs, but 2 bitches and a dog reactive, possibly aggressive male, sounds like something REALLY think about, even if the rescue approves it.

I would do a lot of work with the two away from home. Then in the outdoors near the home, before bringing them both inside.

Max and I went through a dog reactive class last summer. There are lots of ways to get dogs to tolerate each other. BUT, you want them to ideally do more than just tolerate each other.
I think your answers might be more clear after you work more with them on neutral territory?

For me, the first meet is uber important. We love Dolly, but we wanted the male. He didn't like Oz - at all, growled right off, not agressive, but we knew we'd never see either submit.
I would keep trying if you really want to, many times before you bring them into your home.
We went through reactivity with Oz - surprise bad experience at a dog park and sorry to say it was a larger terrier, and he was in the wrong, wouldn't leave Oz alone, Oz was sniffing a garbage can and the dog nailed him, and kept going after him as I'm trying to get my crew out of the park (Oz and Sandi) It took 3 years of "ignore" as a command and alot of socialization to undo one incident - that wasn't a problem ever before. Hence why first offensive move by Henry and we called them away from one another and put Henry away. It would not work.
So... Maybe you need to solve Riley's issue before consideration, you don't want to add fuel to the fire by bringing a new dog in and the inevitable stress that comes with a new dog in the house on you and your current pack.

Well, screwed up there, I think you're absolutely right. Dang it!

Talked to my vet about prescribing prozac or *some* medication if not that. She was not receptive to the idea at all. Says she's heard a lot of bad can happen using them. She did agree to read the article I found on it and call me back. I haven't heard from her yet but Mondays are pretty busy there. I did explain to her that behavior modification would be part of using the meds cuz the meds aren't magic.

I also agreed to call the behaviorist that she recommended, which I did. She's coming to OUR house on Saturday. Love that idea, she gets to see him in his own element I will be asking her about this and if she doesn't nix the idea maybe she'd be willing to help with the process.

No, I don't wanna add more fuel that's why I'm putting off this idea of mine until I talk with her and she has a chance to see him in action.

I agree with this. You may never be able to adopt a new dog until Riley has passed. It incredibly unfair to the existing dog and new dog to try to make them get along. Doesn't Riley have some dog aggression issues?

And also, I didn't take Riley's growl at the female as protecting you. From your story, he didn't growl until she sniffed Nissa. He was guarding HER.

Bingo dingo (trying to think of a way not to say ditto) because I agree with Jax. (she pays me)

I know this is disappointing, but if I were *that dog* I'd be okay with not going to a new family with a dog that might be out to get me.

You MAY be able to work with him but until he was totally in hand and predictable I would not add another dog. I have 2 dogs who don't do well with other dogs and still foster regardless, but it involves my red level crate and rotate system, and my intention is not to keep the fosters. I won't be adding another dog (not that I need to - but just for conversation's sake) until either I could trust those two, or they are no longer with me. My dogs are not guarding me, but are fearful of other dogs and that helps (me). Usually after a bit they are not so afraid of my fosters, but I am not going to put another dog in an uncomfy position to try to work out their issues.

Awwww. He sounds quite black/white. Still, not sure how long it would take for me to trust. him!

You might be able to work this out so all of them can co-exist but I would not do it. I don't want to have to work that hard and then have the fear that one day it may errupt again.

I have looked at a few dogs to adopt over the last year and I would love to bring one home but I also do not want to have to reorganize my pack for a dog with issues (not saying this dog has issues but one of you dogs does).

My Max was dog aggressive and I wyas very afraid bringing a puppy home in 2003 and almost did not(Kayos) but he loved her instantly and the feeling was mutual. Puppies are a little different as they grow up in a relationship where for a long time they are the submissive one and most often will not challenge once they are mature.

I agree with the "get Riley's issues figured out first" gang. I know how disappointing it is when you really want to add a third but it would be even more disappointing and STRESSFUL (for everyone) if your house turned into WWIII and/or the eternal crate and rotate routine.

It took some work to integrate new dogs into my pack when I had Chama but she was predictable and knew what she could and couldn't get away with and fighting was out of the question. I did have to stop fostering because of the level of stress it was causing her. I was able to add dogs to my pack but had to pick just the right temperament to put up with her loud complaints about the interloper.

Think of this as a good excuse to work on Riley's stuff...

Sorry - another one for waiting until Riley's issues are worked out. Certainly putting a dog on Prozac would deter me if it mainly for the purpose of bringing in another dog. I would rather try more natural supplements if need be.

And, I also agree with Lisa. If this girl is in a rescue she is safe. Is it really fair to her to go into a home where it is known upfront there would be a a lot of stress?

One thing to keep a commitment to two dogs already in the house, but different to bring one into that atmosphere. While crate rotations will work, it is something I would do because I had to, not because I planned it from the beginning knowing it could be avoided.

Not to mention another dog in the house could set Riley back even more.

Sorry.

also another one voting on waiting until you get Riley's issues under control.

Sometimes 3 is a crowd in dogdom:) I think it's easier to go from 4 to 3, then it is from 2 -3 unless you have some really easy going dogs.

As others said, it 'may' work, but I would NOT want to have to rotate dogs for who knows how long. I also would not want, as jean said, to be in that foster's shoes wondering when she was going to get the poop kicked out of her. Not fair to her:(

I also would not medicate Riley, it won't 'cure' his issues, and unfortunately he may never be "cured",,some things just can't be 'fixed' in a way we want them to be.

The foster sounds like a sweetie, and it sounds like Nissa would be ok with her, but I would not chance taking this dog in..

I'm in agreement on not adding another dog while Riley has behavioral issues. I know this is tough to hear just now. Sending you good thoughts, and to your dogs!

You had asked if dogs fight even if they're muzzled. They try, in my experience they can't do much harm (they'll manage to pull hair out, but they don't break the skin).

Two of my girls lately have been fighting. After four years of getting along, my four year old now feels the need to go after my eight year old. I now have to rotate them between the crate or separate rooms. I do have a soft muzzle I use on the four year old, when everyone is throwing a fit and wants to be in the same room as me, although I've since learned that the two girls can't even be in the same room as the other, unless one is crated. In the beginning of this fighting nonsense I was advise to get the muzzle by my vet, and that with the muzzle on, the four year old wouldn't fight. That wasn't entirely accurate. The four year old tried going after the eight year old with the muzzle on, but she seemed to realize that she is limited (no damage done), and she doesn't seem to get into the red zone so quickly. But, what she did instead was *try* to jump on the eight year old's back (typical dominance move). Luckily I've always been right there and I catch her so she can't hurt the eight year old. My biggest fear is that she'll break the other girl's back, especially since my eight year old has severe hip dysplasia and bad knees. After several months of this fighting nonsense, my eight year old puts herself in the crate if I muzzle her. Without the muzzle on though, if she was in the same area as the eight year old, I truly think the four year old would kill my eight year old.

Rotating the dogs is such a hassle. I'm always worried that one will get out of the sectioned off room while I'm in the bathroom, so I crate one of them for the few minutes or bring one with me into the bathroom and close the door. You always have to stay ahead of the dogs, and it's a pain in the neck. I miss the peace. So, if you don't have to live this way, and if the rescue pup is not in immediate danger without coming to live with you, I highly recommend you pass. The worst part is when they do fight. When a dog gets into the red zone and you can't separate the two, it's just so scary. I've been biten twice as I've separated them, and while I'm glad I took the brunt of the damage, I'm always worried about the day when I can't separate the two.

I hope this helps some. Best of luck!

Ok, I now have my Common Sense Hat on and have dropped the entire idea of bringing that pretty girl into our home. You all have brought up good points and I appreciate your input very much.

As for meds - it was suggested by a few people. I do realize that it's not going to work on its own and its intended to be a temporary thing combined with behavior modification efforts. My vet hasn't called me back yet. It's a very long article, hoping she went home tonight to read where it may be quieter without too many interruptions.

I did contact the behaviorist my vet recommended and would prefer this route over meds. The behaviorist will be coming to our house on Saturday. I'm very skeptical and not looking forward to yet another persons new ways to do this or that. I stopped counting how many different methods we have tried.

She does get a + for the fact she's coming to us to consult on his turf. Nobody we have worked with so far has ever done this and us going to them is part of the problem. She gets another + for being associated with Patricia Mc Connell's Best Friends organization, believe she said she trained there. One more + for telling me if she finds that his issues are beyond her capabilities, she will refer us to Best Friends, in other words she's not going to take our money if she feels she can't help.

Thanks again for all your replies.

Deb--

When I lived in WI and volunteered with a gsd rescue we used Karen London from Best Friends. She was great but I know she's living elsewhere now. The behaviorists from Best Friends know their stuff.

I know that Riley is on his way to mostly healed from his FHO, but he may still have some residual pain, and that other hip may be painful. Those things might amplify tendencies that are already there.

Just a thought, though it doesn't change a whole lot, even if it is true.