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Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: arycrest] #183699
09/25/11 02:17 PM
09/25/11 02:17 PM
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Furonthefloor Offline
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huggingto you Kelso! I hope you continue to feel like your beautiful self. We'l be thinking of you.

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Furonthefloor] #183732
09/25/11 04:06 PM
09/25/11 04:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,140
Woodstock, IL
AgilePaws Offline
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Continuing to send good thoughts to Kelso! hug


Sandy

RATCHX SG Wisp v Schneiden Fels BH RA NAP OJP CAA CGCA TKN TC HIC
SG Chase v Mittelwest BH
SG Flame v Nummer-Eins TKN HIC

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: AgilePaws] #183763
09/25/11 07:22 PM
09/25/11 07:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
Thanks for not making us wait until Monday for an update!


Go back to your first post in this thread and try to convince yourself that this is not vaccine-induced. The vaccine triggered *something*. If this is ultimatley AIHA/ITP, then this is a vaccine reaction, pure and simple. If this is infection (not even gonna mention the C word), then it was aggravated and brought into crisis by the vaccine. Some vets don't believe this stuff is possible, but you watched it and are living it frown


AIHA is precisely one of the driving forces for the official revised vaccination protocols, though many vets still insist on annual vaccines


I am very happy that your vet is still keeping an open mind. It's easy to leap to AIHA, but if it's infection, that leap can be fatal, since AIHA therapy doesn't include abx.

IF it's infection, keep in mind that the high steroids, and non-aggressive dose of doxy will not allow the body to make progress against the infection. The protocol really addresses the bone marrow problem, and the doxy "kinda" keeps the infection in check from progressing. I'm dinking around with this now, and Max's pred doses are miniscule compared with Kelso's.

I don't know exactly what the labs are doing, pred is doing some weird dance between suppressing the immune system and prompting it to make blood, etc. Seems to me that reticulocyte count being so much better is great thumbup

It's going to be tricky playing with the pred and doxy too. I'd be inclined to stick with your vet, if he is comfortable doing this, only because it sounds like the specialist isn't keeping all the options open yet. If infection isn't on his radar, then I wouldn't switch to him unless you are pretty darn sure it's not infection, if that makes sense. At some point, whether you wean off pred first or wean off doxy first, it will be a leap of faith, making the choice to believe one theory over another, and that gets scary!

I hope that the labs catch up next week. The next step would be the addition of some scarier drugs, and closer to the protocol of Jean Dodds' that I posted way back. I'm REALLY hoping that next week things really start turning around, ASAP!


I'm really encouraged that he's feeling so much better, that is HUGE and has to mean something smile

Hang in there you guys, hard to be patient though
hugging hugging hugging


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #183767
09/25/11 07:33 PM
09/25/11 07:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
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Buffalo
^^^^ I agree with this. I was probably incoherent in my late-night comments but the high doses of steroids always make me nervous for what will happen when they begin tapering off...especially when their isn't a definitive diagnosis and there is a potential infection.


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: BowWowMeow] #183893
09/26/11 04:12 AM
09/26/11 04:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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Kansas
I am thinking that the diagnosis is IMHA/ITP, it is just a matter of what the underlying cause is/or if there is one besides the vaccine (which I have no doubt played a part in this). And that is tricky, like Lisa is saying...the way I am thinking about it is that a bone marrow biopsy would rule out cancer, but cancer is not the highest thing on the list so know one wants to go there at this point, cancer would be preceded by idiopathic/vaccine induced/infection as a cause. Seems there is no way to definately say which witch is which right now? And we are covering those bases for now (except the lower dose of doxy which is something I will discuss with our vet). I also need to ask him if we should add something to protect his belly with the high doses of steroids.

I spoke with another member here that had a pup with this (no known cause) and they weaned the steroids with the antibiotics as an adjunct, probably what we will have to do as we might not find the "cause" (besides the vaccine as a cause/insult contributing)

Was reading the forum about IMHA and it seems sometimes the steroids get tapered..things go bad again, so then they go back on the steroids. I do not think they will begin to taper until he is within normal ranges again though? And it seems most failures were when the taper was not long enough?

I feel like I have a puppy again laugh hammer No more sleeping through the night, we have to get up at least 1-2 times a night to let him pee. The peeing is crazy! Poor guy has not peed in the house since he was a puppy and has had a couple accidents this week frown

Like I said, he is acting pretty much like himself. He wants to play and go about and things which makes me very happy! He has always been a bit of an anxious/ants in his pants type of dog and the steroids are definately enhancing that a little so I want to be careful he dosen't over- do it and he does seem a little anxious.....

I emailed Jean Dodds tonight as well.

Picture of Kelso and his nekid belly today, enjoying the sun (but not to much, don't want him to get a sunburn!)



thanks again, you guys are the best



-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #183898
09/26/11 04:37 AM
09/26/11 04:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,488
Central Florida
arycrest Offline
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Hope I'm remembering this correctly, but I believe when the Hooligans have been on steroids our vet gave them sucralfate/Carafate ... it was kind of messy but seemed to work pretty good.

The latest picture of Kelso is fantastic ... he sure looks like he's feeling a lot better than in the last one!!! wub


Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #183899
09/26/11 04:42 AM
09/26/11 04:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline OP
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kelso  Offline OP
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Kansas
Also, had to add a photo of Allie (with the lion that he de-faced)

She always looks out for Kelso and takes care of his de-stuffed and de-faced toys wub



-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #183905
09/26/11 07:41 AM
09/26/11 07:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
Allie has no arms shocked

rofl okay, that's just how it looked at first, how sweet she is! And yes, Kelso looks like he is feeling a TON better smile

I guess in my mind, I don't think of an infection as AIHA, since an infection can decrease all that stuff without it being autoimmune. I think of AIHA as a different process. I can see the terms being co-mingled though. It is true that in some of these infections, there is immune system dysregulation that looks like (and might be) autoimmune. So perhaps, in my mind, I make a distinction where there really isn't any.

However, when talking to vets, when they talk of AIHA, I really do think that they mean it's a process without infection. I could be wrong!!

On the tick list, a lot of folks use pepcid to protect the stomach from doxy. I know that Carafate has to be separated by 2 hours.

No fun with all the pee problems....I so hope that he turns a corner soon!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #183907
09/26/11 08:22 AM
09/26/11 08:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,964
Victoria, Australia
Qyn Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Thanks for the updates Steph - Kelso certainly looks brighter eyed in the last photo and Allie is as sweet as ever. No matter what has caused this problem, I look forward to seeing a reversal in the lab results as his body fights this problem. I wonder if there is an immune enhancing diet or supplement to help support his recovery in addition to the steroid therapy??


Alison
~~~~~~~~~~
Nix (derivative of Phoenix) Black GSD born 6 June 2011 (Gotcha day 9 Dec 2013)

Quynne gsdhalo - Black Female GSD - Sept 29, 2004 - 11 Nov 2013 Deeply missed

If you don't agree with me ... you are just not listening well enough. smile
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Qyn] #183910
09/26/11 09:29 AM
09/26/11 09:29 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,875
Queensland. Australia
bianca Offline
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bianca  Offline
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Queensland. Australia
I'm afraid this is all way above my head but just wanted you to know I am reading and keeping Kelso in my thoughts. So pleased he is obviously feeling a bit better hugging


Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso] #183965
09/26/11 03:09 PM
09/26/11 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,488
Central Florida
arycrest Offline
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Originally Posted By: kelso
Also, had to add a photo of Allie (with the lion that he de-faced)

She always looks out for Kelso and takes care of his de-stuffed and de-faced toys wub





Isn't that sweet ... true teamwork!!! Dr. Kelso performs the radical stuffyectomies while Dr. Allie critiques his surgical skills!!!


Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: arycrest] #183981
09/26/11 03:52 PM
09/26/11 03:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,203
Alabama
aubie Offline
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Alabama
Kel def looked a lot better in that beautiful photo! Glad he's acting better. I just hate it's still so up in the air for you guys. HUGS!!


Tiffany mom to:
Anna, GSD 9/21/08
Panzer, GSD 9/12/15
Duncan Dog RIP 2/99-10/15
Danger Kitties: Mia & Winston RIP Alley Cat 10/12, Simon 6/13
Andon two-legger
Anna's Dog Blog: www.annathegsd.blogspot.com
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Qyn] #184223
09/27/11 06:25 AM
09/27/11 06:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Qyn
.... I wonder if there is an immune enhancing diet or supplement to help support his recovery in addition to the steroid therapy??

Ar this point, even I'm afraid to try too much here. If there is an autoimmune component (with or without infection), one has to be careful to not boost the immune system. But, protecting the gut is important.


Probiotics are important, between abx. I've never used Carafate, but funny it's mentioned, I just started Max on some left over from Indy, in case some of his discomfort is from ulcers from the pred or doxy.

On the AIHA forum, they use something called Petinic (sp?) A lot, though I can't look it up right now.

Continued good thoughts for Kelso!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa] #184383
09/27/11 07:46 PM
09/27/11 07:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,858
Wisconsin
Wisc.Tiger_Val Offline
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Wisc.Tiger_Val  Offline
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Wisconsin
I looked this up for you Lisa. Petinic is an high iron based vitamin solution.
http://www.drugs.com/vet/pet-tinic.html

I am glad the Kelso is feeling better.


Val da Tiger

Fuzzybutt the cat.
Neilla the Big White puppy.

RIP Cheyenne - AKA: Digger, CheyChey Girl, Cheyenne Large and In charge. 2/16/02 - 2/27/16
RIP Raya - AKA: Raz-a, Ray a Sunshine, RayBestos, the little one, Silly Girl. 9/21/05 - 6/27/14
RIP Lakota - AKA: Bubba, Big Boy, BooBoo (the other part of the Binky and BooBoo team). 1/19/03-9/19/2011
RIP DeeDee - AKA: DD Poo, Little Bit, Binky (part of the Binky and Booboo team) 6/23/02-6/20/11
Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Wisc.Tiger_Val] #184396
09/27/11 08:15 PM
09/27/11 08:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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MaxaLisa  Offline

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Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val
I looked this up for you Lisa. Petinic is an high iron based vitamin solution.
http://www.drugs.com/vet/pet-tinic.html


Thanks Val, that makes sense!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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