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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? etc? [Re: MaxaLisa] #171250
08/03/11 08:47 AM
08/03/11 08:47 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,875
Queensland. Australia
bianca Offline
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bianca  Offline
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Queensland. Australia
Lisa I am so happy to hear that all the pieces are starting to come together to figure out the puzzle that is Max.

So when do you start the different treatments?

Sending you restful thoughts and a gentle hugging for Max. He is so very lucky to have you.


Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? etc? [Re: bianca] #171257
08/03/11 11:05 AM
08/03/11 11:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,083
Rhode Island
LJsMom Offline
Old Hand
LJsMom  Offline
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Rhode Island
Wow, I never would have guessed that SIBO could do so much harm!


Joanne

Kryska's Ironwill Steel Train SD (Siberian Husky) 8-6-99
Miss Mila Monster (GSD) 4-14-02

Waiting at the bridge:
Lady Jane Cobb (GSD - age 15)
Sasha (Siberian Husky - age 13)
Niko (Siberian Husky - age 14)
Wooly Bear (Siberian Husky - age 13)
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: Woodreb] #171267
08/03/11 01:08 PM
08/03/11 01:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,488
Central Florida
arycrest Offline
Pooh-Bah
arycrest  Offline
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Central Florida
Thrilling news!!! Give Max a huge hug from me!!!


Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: arycrest] #171268
08/03/11 01:26 PM
08/03/11 01:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,067
Syracuse, NY
DancingCavy Offline

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DancingCavy  Offline

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Syracuse, NY
I, too, wouldn't think SIBO would be capable of so much damage. But, I suppose coupled with other immune issues, could do just about anything. It sounds like you've got a good handle on what might be going on and some good treatment options. I do hope everything works out and Max is on the rebound soon. I can't imagine how worried you've been.


~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: DancingCavy] #171271
08/03/11 01:41 PM
08/03/11 01:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Mary Jane Offline
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Mary Jane  Offline
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Posts: 2,746
Lisa,

This is really progress: knowledge is power.

If Max has some general impairment in mucosal immunity affecting maybe lung, maybe gut, do you think it would help at all to use a nebulizer for him? I'm just trying to think about what might make it easier to breathe and maybe that could restore some moisture to his lungs. You know, I just wish I could help somehow.

Well more positive thoughts can't hurt,

many best wishes to you both,
Mary Jane

Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: Mary Jane] #171300
08/03/11 04:08 PM
08/03/11 04:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,847
Wisconsin
Wisc.Tiger_Val Offline
Member First - Owner Second "The Watcher"
Wisc.Tiger_Val  Offline
Member First - Owner Second "The Watcher"
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,847
Wisconsin
Lisa,

WOW that is a lot to digest. The only thing I can suggest is ask your Vet if Aminophylline might help Max or if could be used with all the other Medications he might go one, may react to corticosteroids . My horse Pixie had scar tissue in her lungs from two bouts of pneumonia before the age of 4. She wheezed and coughed and had a high respiratory rate and burned a lot of energy just breathing. My Vet suggested we give this a try, it worked wonders for her. I did read that it has mixed results with horses,

http://www.petcarerx.com/pcrx/HealthGuide/Medications/Medication.aspx?mid=10159

http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/aminophylline/page1.aspx


Val da Tiger

Fuzzybutt the cat.
Neilla the Big White puppy.

RIP Cheyenne - AKA: Digger, CheyChey Girl, Cheyenne Large and In charge. 2/16/02 - 2/27/16
RIP Raya - AKA: Raz-a, Ray a Sunshine, RayBestos, the little one, Silly Girl. 9/21/05 - 6/27/14
RIP Lakota - AKA: Bubba, Big Boy, BooBoo (the other part of the Binky and BooBoo team). 1/19/03-9/19/2011
RIP DeeDee - AKA: DD Poo, Little Bit, Binky (part of the Binky and Booboo team) 6/23/02-6/20/11
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: Wisc.Tiger_Val] #171310
08/03/11 05:00 PM
08/03/11 05:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
Rescues Rule Admin
JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
WOWZA. That is some interesting stuff. I am going to have to read this a few times for it to sink in.

Please show this to...I cannot remember who it was...who was not treating the SIBO (now aka Abx Responsive Diarrhea) with antibiotics? Wasn't there someone?

Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: Wisc.Tiger_Val] #171311
08/03/11 05:02 PM
08/03/11 05:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
Thanks everyone, great suggestions for the lungs, I will be certain to be googling and asking my vet about them.

I feel so terrible, that at the same time I've been trying over and over again to cut back on abx, that my boy has been developing this state of walking mild septic shock I guess.


I took him off tylan back then because I felt that he was he wasn't doing well, when , in reality, he might have needed stronger abx. He keeps needing more and stronger abx, so I really hope that my vet will follow through on this plechner protocol, it's the only possible thing I see to break the cycle.

If it's not SIBO, it might be the stupid tick stuff, though I will always suspect the fact that stb-ex used the toilet for his water bowl before we met. Idiot, who does that anyway, and in a breed so susceptible to bacteria. I know that was a long time ago, but he's been sick a very very long time, it just progresses.

He has a harder time breathing after meals. I thought it was something I've been giving, I've been trying all sorts of different combinations - I bet it's an inflamed gut.

And none of that touches the possible lung stuff. When he was younger, he would have problems breathing, and laying down and me stretching out his ribcage would help. That makes me think of the lung stuff a bit, everything very tight

Today is the chiro, for both of us.

Tomorrow I find out what the acu vet has to say about starting the protocol.

If I start SIBO treatment the day before the test, do you think it makes a difference?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #171313
08/03/11 05:05 PM
08/03/11 05:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline OP

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
Jean, yes, I remember. Haven't had coffee yet, I'll think of the name.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #171314
08/03/11 05:06 PM
08/03/11 05:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
Rescues Rule Admin
JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
Call and ask someone - or email - I think, to be safe.

Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #171321
08/03/11 05:20 PM
08/03/11 05:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Yeah. I have to imagine, if he's this bad (who else has an undersized heart from sibo? No, only my dog!), it can't make much difference, but I should find someone to ask.


The internal medicine guy did say that they see a lot of strange things from this type of disseminated SIBO, if that's what it is. It seems to manifest differently in different individuals. I wanted him to tell me more, but certainly that would have been at the expense of talking about Max.

I'm such a geek, I think I could have found a zillion questions for him...


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #171341
08/03/11 06:34 PM
08/03/11 06:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,488
Central Florida
arycrest Offline
Pooh-Bah
arycrest  Offline
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Central Florida
I don't know if this will help Max or not, but when Kelly was treated for SIBO he took a 30 day course of tetracycline and ate a low-residue food for maybe six months or so. My vet then had me attempt to wean him back to a regular diet, however, the SIBO flared up again in short order (it was bad enough he had to go to the ER).

He was given another 30 day course of tetracycline and put back on his low-residue diet for 18 months. He was weaned off the LR diet back onto a regular diet sucessfully the second time and never had another problem until the day he died.

While he did take antibiotics, he was only on them for a total of about 60 days during a 24 month (more or les) time span.


Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: arycrest] #171368
08/03/11 10:14 PM
08/03/11 10:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,940
Ohio
PositiveDog Online coffee
Carpal Tunnel
PositiveDog  Online Coffee
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,940
Ohio
Lisa and Max - hugging What a lot to absorb. It is good to get some (probable) answers, but it sounds like a long road ahead.

Max is fortunate to have you as his champion!


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: PositiveDog] #171382
08/03/11 11:43 PM
08/03/11 11:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Gayle, he's been on doxycycline, a tetracycline, since 2009, which did help with his SIBO symptoms when I first started with it. This was so not on my radar. Of course, if it's not SIBO, it's some other infection.....there must be a reason why he needed three different abx at the time to heal his fistula.

Bonnie, sigh, yes, a long road. We have a shot at this if all of us are on the same page. I'm worried, and tired, but at least I have a direction. I hope that tomorrow's appointment with the acu vet to talk about the Plechner protocol goes well. I just ordered his new book from Amazon.

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 08/04/11 01:21 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? SIBO? [Re: MaxaLisa] #171552
08/04/11 11:04 PM
08/04/11 11:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Northern CA
Had an appointment with the acu vet today. We kinda have a plan.

We sent off a fecal sample to be checked at the lab, as well as blood for folate/B-12.

The acu vet is not comfortable doing Plechner's protocol. Initially, it requires several injections of high dose steroids, and she's just not sure what Max will do under those circumstances. Max's dependency on several antiobiotics, and being so weak now, it's really unpredictable, and with an injection, you just can't take that back.

It is clear that there is an endocrine dysfunction and that he will need ongoing steroid treatment to replace the low cortisol. He will be treated like an Addison's dog, now two tests showing that he isn't making enough cortisol, and all his immune indicators are low. Everyone keeps telling me that he needs higher doses of steroids, but Addison's is a low dose, so I guess I don't understand that....

We are going to have to play a balancing act between the antibiotics and the steroids. We want to get him better, so we can do a trial without the doxycycline, in case he is reacting to that. It's possible, that the doxy was doing the job that the pred is now doing, and tetracycline allergy is not unheard of. I don't completely buy that the doxy is acting only as an anti-inflammatory and not also as an antibiotic, but, I'm willing to consider the possibility.

She didn't completely discount the Plechner theory, but just that we won't have any tools to treat Max with if he crashes, since he's not really responding well to anything at all. I think she is thinking of a more stepped and moderate approach to the protocol. I don't know if that will be effective though...like abx, sometimes a low dose just doesn't do the trick. Most important to her though, is that Max doesn't crash as we step up the dose.

I am going to start vitamin C infusions next week, to see if he will respond to that. Called in the homeopathic vet too - always do that when my back is against the wall.

So we aren't out of options yet, we'll keep plugging away. I really really miss walking my dog....

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 08/04/11 11:06 PM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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