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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169687
07/25/11 11:49 PM
07/25/11 11:49 PM
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JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
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Hey Gayle!

Hey Max - good! You know, Pred gets a bad rap, but it has its applications without a doubt. And is kind of a weirdly miraculous drug sometimes. So I hope by keeping him on abx and that nice dose...he will get a lot of benefit. The Prednisilone is not so hard on the liver from what I understand. Of course, I could be understanding that wrong (or misunderstanding I guess is the word).

Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169699
07/26/11 12:43 AM
07/26/11 12:43 AM
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Central Florida
arycrest Offline
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Thank you Gayle! I noticed that you hadn't been around much, hope it's just summer stuff, and nothing serious!
Thanks Lisa ... my computer got a virus ... could only READ boards V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y via my Kindle, could not post. Borrowed this lap top from my sister until I can get my computer fixed.


Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #169749
07/26/11 05:25 AM
07/26/11 05:25 AM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
Hey Max - good! You know, Pred gets a bad rap, but it has its applications without a doubt. And is kind of a weirdly miraculous drug sometimes. So I hope by keeping him on abx and that nice dose...he will get a lot of benefit. The Prednisilone is not so hard on the liver from what I understand. Of course, I could be understanding that wrong (or misunderstanding I guess is the word).


That's good to know. Know that I have a copy of his bloodwork, his ALT has doubled, though still in the normal range. I'm not sure if that can be from 3 days of pred...I sure hope not, otherwise we are in trouble.

If we do this hormonal protocol, I think that they use a more natural form of hydrocortisone. If we don't, I will ask about the prednisilone.

This bloodwork, sure would never have guessed it was Max's by just looking at it. Completely wonky and not at all like his blood profile. I don't get it....and no clumping or hemolysis, though there was lipemia. Just weird!

The trainer tonight noted that he looked good - his nose and eyes are better on the pred, and in this short amount of time, the pigment in his coat is coming back????? Must be something about fixing the cortisol is allowing the thyroid to work? VERY weird stuff that I don't understand. Always a journey crazy


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: arycrest] #169750
07/26/11 05:25 AM
07/26/11 05:25 AM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: arycrest
Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Thank you Gayle! I noticed that you hadn't been around much, hope it's just summer stuff, and nothing serious!
Thanks Lisa ... my computer got a virus ... could only READ boards V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y via my Kindle, could not post. Borrowed this lap top from my sister until I can get my computer fixed.



AAACkk, computer h*ll. I'm glad that you have a loaner, I hope that yours gets fixed soon!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169884
07/27/11 04:03 AM
07/27/11 04:03 AM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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I. am. tired.

Had the blood drawn today, and it's in my refrigerator. I have to get it packed up to send to Texas, so they can run that funny panel. Then I'm going to schedule a consultation with Dr. Plechner. The vet and I talked about this at length today, and she's game, since there is clearly something about Max that does not respond the way he is supposed to.

If all goes well, we'll have those results by next Tuesday. I don't yet know how the consultation will work.

I also spoke to her about doing vitamin C infusions. This would be down the line, since we have to take one step at a time, but I really think that this would help him. After talking to her, she seem enthusiastic that this was something that I might want to try with him.

I emailed the head of the neuro lab at UCSD, asking a few questions about myasthenia gravis, and, from the sounds of her reply, it really doesn't look like it. Of course, he could have a unique presentation. Trying to prioritize my finances here, that test is much lower on my list.

Some of you may remember that I'm taking Max to a dog reactive class, for issues that were worse after he was attacked at the beginning of the year. He still has fear that shoots through him, even if he hears a dog barking inside a house (even a yappy dog), but we did great today. After we left the vet clinic and were walking around the block before driving home, an Aussie got loose from her owners, about 3/4 of a block away, and came charging at Max at full speed.

Luckily I had enough time to yell at them to get their attention, and then stepped in front of Max and yelled at the Aussie, and I meant business. Poor girl, I must of have terrified her - I only said one or two words, but would have seriously harmed her had she come closer. She hit the ground, and after laying there a minute, turned and ran full speed back to her owner, who was getting ready to hit her, and I started yelling at him, no, no, no, she came back to you, she's fine, she's fine....so she only got a serious finger wag...of course she layed down on the ground and rolled on her back very submissively. She didn't want to hurt Max, I'm sure, but he was terrified, poor boy.

As we walked away, he kept looking at me like "what the heck just happened?", and you could tell he was relieved that nothing bad occurred. Not ten minutes later, I had to avoid another off leash dog - thank goodness for parked cars on the street to act as a screen. But it was a success, whew!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169906
07/27/11 08:41 AM
07/27/11 08:41 AM
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Queensland. Australia
bianca Offline
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bianca  Offline
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Lisa do you think some of this could be related to him being stressed? I think I recall Lin saying something along this line ages ago(with one of her dogs)?

Sending you some peaceful calm restful thoughts and a gentle hug for sweet Max hugging


Last edited by bianca; 07/27/11 08:42 AM.

Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169921
07/27/11 01:57 PM
07/27/11 01:57 PM
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Mary Jane Offline
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Mary Jane  Offline
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Max doesn't have enough to deal with but he has to be harassed by out of control dogs-thank goodness Lisa knows what to do and can carry it off (no surprise). If Max were a case in the mystery diagnosis in the Sunday NY Times magazine his health would be provocative. In reality it's a terrible trial.

Not that I know, but if he's on cortisone, wouldn't that be somewhat helpful in the context of an autoimmune disease (MG)?

I really, really hope your consults lead to some constructive action.

I wish I knew something better to say-but all positive thoughts and calm for you both.

Mary Jane

Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: Mary Jane] #169960
07/27/11 06:05 PM
07/27/11 06:05 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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You know Mary Jane, after that last attack, I rehearsed in my head how I need to be if a dog approaches him again. I see the fear in Max's eyes, and it's actual fear for his life, and that's just heart breaking. No wonder the boy is stressed!

I was thinking the same thing about being on the pred if there is something autoimmune like MG. Part of me is wondering if he's having a reaction to the doxycycline - it's been 2 years now, with no decrease of dosage. A bit paralyzed about whether I should decrease the dose now that he's on pred

One day at a time I guess.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169971
07/27/11 07:09 PM
07/27/11 07:09 PM
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Posts: 19,487
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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I googled chronic hypovolemia, and found this:

Quote:
Decrease In Circulating Blood Volume
Eighty percent, or the vast majority, of the patients in Bell and Streeten's first study (of 19 patients, versus the 20 in the more recent study), had a "marked, striking" decrease in circulating blood volume. "One nice thing about that finding," Bell said wryly, "is that it is a discrete physiological abnormality that cannot possibly be explained as psychosomatic."

How severe were the abnormalities? As mentioned before, the average was 70 percent of normal blood volume; still, "we have six people with only 50 percent of normal blood volume and yet they are still walking around. It seems to be a different mechanism than what happens to a healthy person [who loses that much blood] in a car accident."

In fact, the blood vessels in CFIDS seem to be constricted dramatically, and yet attempts to restore normal blood volume (through use of Florinef, salt, saline injections, transfusions) have met with only limited success so far. "All of the body's normal mechanisms to restore blood [when it is lost in other ways] seem to be turned off." It is as if the CFIDS body <wants> to have low blood volume and that its blood vessels want to stay constricted. Bell likens the blood vessels to water pipes that are only half the proper diameter - you simply cannot make a metal pipe hold any more fluid than the pipe is built to carry.

"When you tell people about these findings, their immediate question is, 'What happened to the blood? Where did it go?' The answer is we don't know. It's not like the patients bled out or are dehydrated - although they do experience a lot of thirst." Turning to the audience, Dr. Bell noted that his patients carry "buckets of fluid" with them at all times - an observation made by other clinicians. "How many people here also have excessive thirst? Whoa - look at all those hands!" It's as though some rudimentary alert system is crying out for more fluid, but because of the vasoconstriction, it just gets flushed away.

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diagnosis/oi.html


And that bolded part is exactly what has been spinning in my head.....

Yes, I need HOUSE!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #169981
07/27/11 07:31 PM
07/27/11 07:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
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Buffalo
Lisa,

I just saw this and afraid I'm of no help at all here. I do want to send my best to both of you though. I really hope you can figure out exactly what's going on and figure out an effective protocol for treating Max. He is such a sweet boy...he doesn't deserve all of these health problems. hugging


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: BowWowMeow] #170020
07/27/11 11:38 PM
07/27/11 11:38 PM
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Syracuse, NY
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Poor Max getting rushed by off-leash dogs. It's every reactive dogs' nightmare and probably infinitely worse since he's not feeling well.

I really hope you're able to get some answers soon and get Max on a course of treatment so he'll be back to his old self again. *HUGS*


~Jamie~
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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: DancingCavy] #170168
07/28/11 06:03 PM
07/28/11 06:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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MaxaLisa  Offline OP

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Thank you Ruth and Jamie, he is such a sweet boy. However, I did get that statement the other day from a tech - such a sweet boy "for a shepherd". We've seen a lot of newer vet techs lately.

I had a brief conversation with Dr. Plechner yesterday, and sent off the blood to Texas for the hormone panel.

Plechner said something about the mix between genetics and environment contribute to make an estrogen dominance in the body, which then lowers cortisol and at the same time binds the T4. The cortisol is what is needed for conversion to T3. If he's IgA deficient, then he won't be able to absorb nutrients and in particular, oral medication, very well. Of course, that all has to be backed up by the test results.

Treatment, once things get leveled out, is two cheap drugs (prednisolone and I suppose soloxine?). I don't know how he treats the IgA deficiency.


He has a book out, which, if I had time to read it, I probably would. I think his website is just www.drplechner.com , and he's also at healthypetsnetwork.com , if I have remembered that right.


It would all fit for him, but we'll see, trying not to get my hopes up and keep thinking about all the options.

The nutritionist will be helping me rebalance his diet, and try to get him on the alkaline side of things. Right now he's very acidic and that's not helpful for this I guess. Plechner did recommend Nutramin (sp?) To help with this, and the nutritionist said it was a good product.

I am looking for something to dilate his blood vessels to help him circulate blood. No one seems to want to address that issue right now, and I'm worried about organ damage from reduced blood flow. There are already changes in his pancreas and liver enzymes. I can't say the low blood is the cause, but I think it's a front runner. Kinda waiting to see expenses to setup with the internist, so I have a backup if things go south. Just sending that blood overnight mail cost between $80 and $90.

The good news I guess is that he is maintaining and still here thumbup

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 07/28/11 06:09 PM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #170187
07/28/11 08:29 PM
07/28/11 08:29 PM
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Rhode Island
LJsMom Offline
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You know, treatment for our dogs is never cheap; thereby decreasing the odds that this is Max's problem. I really hope I'm wrong!


Joanne

Kryska's Ironwill Steel Train SD (Siberian Husky) 8-6-99
Miss Mila Monster (GSD) 4-14-02

Waiting at the bridge:
Lady Jane Cobb (GSD - age 15)
Sasha (Siberian Husky - age 13)
Niko (Siberian Husky - age 14)
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Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: LJsMom] #170383
07/29/11 11:29 PM
07/29/11 11:29 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: LJsMom
You know, treatment for our dogs is never cheap; thereby decreasing the odds that this is Max's problem.


I do hope that we can catch a break here, just once!!

I thought I was going to lose Max last night, he couldn't breath. Well, I guess he was breathing fine, he just couldn't seem to pump blood to where he needed it. He had to move from one place to the next about every 20 minutes because his heart was working so hard and it still wasn't sufficient. Then he would stand up, all arched, and I thought he was going to die.....how long can a heart beat at a zillion beats per minute and still hold out? I hate to think what is happening to his organs without the sufficient blood flow. Even if we get this figured out, I hope that his innards (love that word), can recover from the prolonged lack of blood flow. His bloodwork started showing evidence of this back in November, and, imo, once the bloodwork shows it, it's already been going on for awhile and the body has just lost it's ability to compensate.

His hormone results, I should have by Tuesday. As a backup, Tuesday afternoon, a consult with the internal medicine guy. The only thing online that I can find that fits his profile, is that CFIDS stuff, which is really "out there", though not inconsistent with his chronic infections. I personally think that there is mostly likely a problem with his pituitary or hypothalamus, and there is no treatment for that directly, only supportive care, which is why I think this hormone stuff, if the tests support it, are the best choice moving forward.

Even if it's the right thing, Dr. Plechner said that it will take a couple of weeks before we see Max starting to feel better, and I don't know how long after that if he can resolve the hypovolemia, or if he will need some supportive care.

I guess I treat him like a heartworm positive dog, in terms of limited activity. Heck, even barking at the UPS guy is a bit dangerous for him and takes awhile to recover from.

Dr. Plechner did call yesterday again, to let me know that he had touched base with my vet, and he answered a few more questions that I had, and he'll be on this as soon as the test results are ready. I expressed my concern to him that Max tends to test negative for everything, and he was pretty confident that this won't happen here, after knowing the history.

crossedfingers


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: ultrasound for the heart?/adrenals? ticks? [Re: MaxaLisa] #170389
07/29/11 11:51 PM
07/29/11 11:51 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 8,875
Queensland. Australia
bianca Offline
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bianca  Offline
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Queensland. Australia
Oh Lisa, how frightening frown

I am keeping Max firmly in my thoughts and prayers hugging

Come on Tuesday...


Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.
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