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Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: DnP] #133842
02/15/11 09:13 PM
02/15/11 09:13 PM
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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I actually disagree that the skin test is the gold standard. Max's Derm, whom I like very much, uses a blood allergy test for environmental allergens. (She does food by challenge.)

I do agree with stopping the Nupro - there are many things in there that could be a trigger.

Can you tell if the hair loss is from itching and scratching and biting, or does it continue to happen when he is on the drug? Did you ever try benadryl and if so, did that have any effect?


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: MaxaLisa] #133844
02/15/11 09:17 PM
02/15/11 09:17 PM
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Rensselaer County, NY
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Lisa, why don't you think it's the gold standard? I know my derm perferred to do the skin test, but was ok with me wanting to wait to hear back on the blood testing my vet sent to VARL? My derm said that the blood testing was more apt to have false positives and false negatives than the skin testing for environmental allergens.

I was also steered away from doing food allergens with the blood testing for the same reason. Both my derm and vet said I could do it, but they both felt it wasn't worth the cost. Though, I wish I had now, I've heard so many folks say that it is, at the very least, a starting point.


Diana

Bentley...the light that brought me out of the darkness.

RIP Phoenix (Brightstar rescue) 2006 - 5/6/2017
RIP Dakota 1/5/1993 - 10/23/2006
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: DnP] #133846
02/15/11 09:22 PM
02/15/11 09:22 PM
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McAlester, OK
Kayos Offline

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Diana Havoc also really was itchy at the beginning of winter. I think seasonal changes bring out the worst. He also gets runny poo. The shots have been effective for us as well.

I have noticed Havoc itches more in our bedroom. When we go to bed he comes in and lays on the carpet next to my side of the bed. If I put a bed there he lays at the foot of the bed. He likes the carpet but I am beginning to suspect the carpet may have wool in it. He is very allergic to wool.

Havoc also does not do well with Fish Oil, gives him the trots, Ground Flax seed too. Salmon Oil every other day seems to offer a balance for him at least this week. You may be using too many supplements.

When we did Havoc's food trial we stopped every thing except Duck and Potato for 4 months. No supplements, no other treats, no meat left overs, just his kibble and canned and D and P treats. We added one protein and tried it for 10 days to watch for a reaction. If we saw a reaction on for example day 3 we stopped there and crossed it off the "things Havoc can eat list". If we saw a reaction we stopped the food went back to D and P for 7 days and then moved to the next protein. When you start adding protein it is better to add fresh meat. We used about 1/2 cup of meat for each trial. A reaction can be runny poo, vomitting, gunky eyes or ears or itching.

It is a long process and requires a lot of discipline to stick to it and it is not exact because we are not exact. It took us probably 7 or 8 months from start to finish and I am not always sure about chicken. According to the trail it is oay but sometiems he itches with too much of it. He also has a bad habit of attacking the cat box so we are vigilant about that too.

Allergies are just no fun for us or them.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: Kayos] #133848
02/15/11 09:28 PM
02/15/11 09:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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McAlester, OK
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Diana I was busfy typing as the others were posting. Both of my vets, (derm and regular) said the same thing about the blood test reliabilty. They said it was okay as a baseline but too amny false negs and pso made it not worth the money. Havoc's skin testing was not that bad and I had results a lot faster.

I think in the cases where the blood test says puppy is allergic to chicken and owner stops chicken and puppy improves than that is great but it does not happen tha often according to the vet. I think the blood test is also more expensive. Personally I did not care about cost or methed I just wanted accuracy.

That said I am considering a blood test just to back up the skin test and I may insist on it when Havoc goes in for his check up in late March.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: Kayos] #133849
02/15/11 09:31 PM
02/15/11 09:31 PM
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Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Diana, when I first did the VARL testing for Indy, it was at our vet's suggestion. He said he used to send his clients over to UCD for skin testing, but had MUCH better results with the blood test - and that vet, though I often disagreed with his philosophies, is just about the smartest vet I have ever worked with.

I also respect this Derm of Max's, since she seems very willing to work outside of the box, as far as Derms go.

I had good experiences with VARL for Indy and Spectrum for Max. I was also pleased with the food results. No false positives, but, yes, false negatives - hard to know if those additional "issue foods" are allergies or other sensitivies.

Foods are trickier, since in some foods, preparation can alter the allergen, and I think there is a list of other reasons that can confuse the issue. I still like using the blood food test as a starting point for an elimination diet.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: Kayos] #133850
02/15/11 09:38 PM
02/15/11 09:38 PM
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Rensselaer County, NY
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Kathy, whenever the itching starts up, I get anxious and think, oh crap, what now. I guess with two years of seasonal changes under our belt,I'm figuring, like you, that seasonal changes are to blame. I have not had an issue with runny poo in a long time (THANK God!!!)

I ripped up all of my carpets in the house and got the hardwoods refinished underneath..what a change! The new house we have has all hardwoods and limited scatter rugs. I've noticed that we have to be careful about certain synthetic fibers. Kathy, I'll trade you a few of my nice new synthetic (aka itchy) scatter rugs for your wool ones...wool is our friend here!

I started out with a home cooked diet, but with my work schedule, I had to switch to kibble. I took a chance at TOTW pacific Stream since I knew NB had flax and since I stopped the Nupro b/c of the flax, I figured why take the chance. All treats, including training treats, were the kibble. Took us a good 6 months to figure out grains (even rice, millet and barley) chicken (raw, cooked and processed) and processed beef (as in kibble and treats) to be our enemy. I didn't understand raw, so I was adding cooked meat and grains. I looked for the same reactions as Kathy noted. Some items (chicken, barley, rice) I saw immediate reactions, others took a little longer, but I believe I gave it 3 days for testing too.


Diana

Bentley...the light that brought me out of the darkness.

RIP Phoenix (Brightstar rescue) 2006 - 5/6/2017
RIP Dakota 1/5/1993 - 10/23/2006
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: DnP] #133853
02/15/11 09:47 PM
02/15/11 09:47 PM
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Rensselaer County, NY
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Kathy, looks like I was busy typing when you responded.

My VARL was $180 and the derm was $220 for the skin...I had already paid for the blood test, so I figured, why not go for it. The derm off the bat, believed dust mites and molds b/c of the age of my house and carpet. The blood test showed those, dust mites and two common molds, as being the biggest allergens on the test. He didn't push for the skin test but suggested if we didn't see a marked difference in the itching on the first vial of serum, to try the skin testing. Lucky for us, 6 months of the serum, my dilegence in vacuuming, dusting and laundering with de-mite, we saw a HUGE improvement. Obviously, the food allergies took a bit longer.


Diana

Bentley...the light that brought me out of the darkness.

RIP Phoenix (Brightstar rescue) 2006 - 5/6/2017
RIP Dakota 1/5/1993 - 10/23/2006
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: DnP] #133854
02/15/11 09:48 PM
02/15/11 09:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

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Here the problem with Nupro is not the flax, but the other ingredients in it. Max gets fresh ground flax daily. The Nupro is really not his friend - could be the yeast, the source of liver (chicken? They don't say), or even the.other ingredients.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: MaxaLisa] #133857
02/15/11 09:53 PM
02/15/11 09:53 PM
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Rensselaer County, NY
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Diana, when I first did the VARL testing for Indy, it was at our vet's suggestion. He said he used to send his clients over to UCD for skin testing, but had MUCH better results with the blood test - and that vet, though I often disagreed with his philosophies, is just about the smartest vet I have ever worked with.

I also respect this Derm of Max's, since she seems very willing to work outside of the box, as far as Derms go.

I had good experiences with VARL for Indy and Spectrum for Max. I was also pleased with the food results. No false positives, but, yes, false negatives - hard to know if those additional "issue foods" are allergies or other sensitivies.

Foods are trickier, since in some foods, preparation can alter the allergen, and I think there is a list of other reasons that can confuse the issue. I still like using the blood food test as a starting point for an elimination diet.


Lisa, my vet does the derm referrals, but said that he likes the blood testing for environmental allergens. I think I jumped on that immediately, as I really respect this vet as he's bucked the "party line" in the practice. In fact, I'm going with him to Dr. Dodd's seminar. Anyhow, I have since talked to him about the blood testing for food allergens since talking to others, like yourself who have had it done. He still doesn't recommend it because of the false negatives, but admitted it can give a starting point for feeding.


Diana

Bentley...the light that brought me out of the darkness.

RIP Phoenix (Brightstar rescue) 2006 - 5/6/2017
RIP Dakota 1/5/1993 - 10/23/2006
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: MaxaLisa] #133858
02/15/11 10:00 PM
02/15/11 10:00 PM
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Rensselaer County, NY
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Here the problem with Nupro is not the flax, but the other ingredients in it. Max gets fresh ground flax daily. The Nupro is really not his friend - could be the yeast, the source of liver (chicken? They don't say), or even the.other ingredients.


I don't think the liver is chicken or else we'd have BIG issues in this house w/ Phoenix's severe reaction to anything chicken, including fat and eggs (we found out duck eggs are fine) I never gave the yeast a second thought, I was all worried about the flax since I was told it could be a possible allergen and I avoided all foods containing it.


Diana

Bentley...the light that brought me out of the darkness.

RIP Phoenix (Brightstar rescue) 2006 - 5/6/2017
RIP Dakota 1/5/1993 - 10/23/2006
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: DnP] #133860
02/15/11 10:06 PM
02/15/11 10:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,662
McAlester, OK
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Wow exact opposite on the cost here. Amazing how different locations can be so varied.

Diana I think your vet sounds awesome! My vet did tell me I am making him think outside the box more. As I really know little about this I took his advice and went with the skin test and he was backed up by the derm.

There is a holistic vet in Tulsa that I have talked to about this and she actually helped me with understanding the hot, cold and nuetral proteins too. She also felt the skin test was the better test. But you know it may just be that for so long that is all there was and many vets just don't trust the other?

If it flies or has fins Havoc can eat it.


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: Kayos] #133867
02/15/11 10:37 PM
02/15/11 10:37 PM
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Rensselaer County, NY
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Kathy, I LOVE my vet and while we now live over an hour away, I still keep him as Phoenix's primary vet. He feeds his own dogs a home cooked diet and titers. He's the vet that I went to for Dakota's accupuncture when I moved up here and KNEW Dr. Clemmons protocol for DM, so I didn't have to do any educating on what I was doing for Dakota. He is the one who referred me to the holistic vet I now take Phoenix to for his accupuncture and chiro.

I really like my holistic vet. From day one, she's been schooling me on the hot, cold and neutral proteins too. We try to avoid venison and salmon, when possible ( we call them "heaty meats" in our house) and stick w/ ocean whitefish and duck and bison whenever possible. (but during hunting season, we get a nice supply of venison, so I portion it out over the year) She even got me to purchase and READ four paws five directions. I think I brought the book in for the first few appts w/ my highlighted sections w/ written questions. She's not keen on the allergy shots and would love to see us stop them at some point and feels they will not be a life long regimen for Phoenix.

If it has fins, it's a friend in our house...

I never asked her about what she thinks works better, the skin or blood testing...hmm, I think I'll have to write that one down.


Diana

Bentley...the light that brought me out of the darkness.

RIP Phoenix (Brightstar rescue) 2006 - 5/6/2017
RIP Dakota 1/5/1993 - 10/23/2006
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: MaxaLisa] #133929
02/16/11 02:14 AM
02/16/11 02:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,713
NY
GSDTrain Offline OP
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Thanks for the information everyone.
I will stop the Nupro as well as all other supplements and also see if I can get my vet to prescribe some other antibiotics.
I will also look into the tick disease possibility as well. The vet did not take his temp. either visit.
Thyroid is already the next thing on my list to test for.
As far as how he itches- he itches, scratches and bites himself. The area on his leg he bites at. I do think that the rugs may have something to do with it, possibly, as he does seem to itch more when he is in the living room (which has an older carpet), compared to when he is in my room or the kitchen.
I will have to go look in the freezer and get back to you on what type/brand of raw food I have. (Mason doesn't ever has get scraps, left overs or any other type of people food- he just never has.)

The allergy test that was done was the blood VARL test. When I talk to my vet again, I will ask for a derm referral as well.

In the mean time, I will look into the scallup and St. John's Wort.
Thanks Again


~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: GSDTrain] #133931
02/16/11 02:23 AM
02/16/11 02:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
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Can you try covering the rugs with something for awhile, and see if that makes a difference? Put a sheet or a blanket on top of them temporarily?

As for the antibiotics, I'm not sure that they will help right now, unless it's an anti-fungal. The vet should have seen yeast on the skin scraping? If he has chewed so there is a bacterial infection, then the antibiotics will help with that. Not sure they will do much more at this point, unless there are tick issues.

I'm hoping it's a rug issue.....it would make sense.

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 02/16/11 02:25 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Mason Skin Issues- Thoughts? [Re: MaxaLisa] #133937
02/16/11 02:35 AM
02/16/11 02:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,713
NY
GSDTrain Offline OP
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The preprepared raw food I bought is Naturte's Variety Instinct RAW.(http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/dog/all)
I bought a few kinds, including the beef and lamb. After looking at them more closely, I see that they both contain flaxseed, which I didn't know was a possible "allergen" suspect at the time I bought them. Should I feed them to him or no?
I will look into raw feeding a little more and contact Lauri, to see what I should be feeding him percentage wise.


~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI
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