I'm going round and round about this.

We keep talking about doing RAW, but just can't find the space to have a good freezer and our setup is not the best. But it might happen down the road.

Orijen and Acana...I've been feeling rather ambivilent about them lately. Between the price increases and availability issues...ehh not feeling it. Orijen is probably more expensive than feeding RAW now. And if I'm going to pay that much for dog food, then I might as well just suck it up and do RAW rather than anything processed.

So bring the suggestions on! Elsa gets Natural Balance and EVO Red (we just started adding the EVO back in after a break because I thught it might be causing an ear infection, but so far so good). I don't want to feed either to a puppy. I like the idea of a single-source protein for puppies, but I don't think the LID foods quite pull it off to feed if you don't have to. NB has been a god-send for Elsa, though.

Oh, and I'm trying to avoid chicken. Elsa is allergic to it and so many dogs have chicken issues I don't really want it in the house or to bother with it.

I fed Natural Balance to Havoc and it was recommended by the breeder if we did not do raw. I had him on the Venison and then switched to Duck and then Fish.

I have Cooper on Fromm puppy gold

I have finally decided to listen to my dog food guy and start baby puppies on limited ingredient diets (even with <gasp> grains) because it seems like when I do that, there are great results. He said it's similar to the idea that we don't feed babies a full Thanksgiving meal, but start with giving them one thing, then after a while, another.

I like to keep that calcium/phosphorus thing in mind, I try not to give a fancy protein, but do something like chicken/rice, lamb/rice. I have done the California Naturals and liked the way that worked a lot. Then I work into something like GO! Salmon/Oats or the Pinnacle foods with lesser ingredients, and then let them eat the bajillion ingredients in other foods as they hit 8-10 months.

With that, or actually now that I have learned from diarrhea, and then going backwards, then forwards, I have dogs that can rotate without issue every two months (KW).

I have Riva on Canidae Chicken and Rice. It's an all-life stages formula and it has the appropriate calcium and phosphorus levels. I prefer adult food over puppy formulas and her breeder also starts his puppies on adult food. In a few weeks I'll be changing to another protein and carb formula, haven't decided which one yet. I like to change protein and carb sources every 3-4 months as was recommended by Dr. Karen Becker at a food summit. She says that's a way to prevent food allergies from developing.

See, that was kind of my thought with those foods. They are just so "blah" as far as nutritional oompf. I just feel like dogfood as so much carp in it sometimes that an 8 week old puppy doesn't need and less can be more. Maybe I will just start off with and LID food and see how it goes. I've had SUCH good luck with NB. The foster I've had have all ended up on it eventually when other foods don't work out well. It is definitely not a 6 star food, but they do what they do darn well.

I think that this is an important article:
http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/adaptation_to_the_diet.html

This talks of very young pups, but I think the process is important as they age, much to what you allude to:

Age for Development of Oral Tolerance
Animals must be able to develop oral tolerance when they are weaned and begin eating new foods. It is unknown when a puppy or kitten has the maturity to develop oral tolerance. It is estimated that they must be older than six weeks. If new foods are consumed before that age, it is likely that oral tolerance will not develop. Feeding a new food to which an animal has no oral tolerance is likely to result in allergy to that food.

Lots more good stuff in that article by Strombeck.

I feed all my dogs an LID (California Natural, usually the Lamb and Rice). Nikon, Anna, and Pan were all switched to this as little puppies and did/are doing great. Nikon was weaned to Nature's Variety, Anna to Wellness Core, and Pan to Fromm Gold. In each case I got some of their food and switched over to Cal Nat.

I've wondered about the food being palatable and the dogs getting sick of it over time but of all the foods I've tried over the years everyone LOVES the Cal Nat LIDs. Pan will do obedience for it the same as a high value treat and Nikon used to get it on his tracks.

Sometimes I wonder about variety so occasionally I toss the dogs raw beef marrow bones, raw venison, raw eggs, and other table scraps but certainly not at the volume of actually feeding raw/homecooked. If I'm running low on kibble and trying to make it to a Sunday (when I see my friend who supplies me), I often feed the dogs meals of raw meat, raw eggs, cottage cheese, salmon oil, and random leftovers we probably won't eat but aren't necessarily bad yet.

All my dogs have been very healthy, no allergies or digestive problems. They have clean, healthy coats and eyes. Kenya and Coke have awesome poops on the LID, they are small and firm and basically break down within a day or two like raw poops. Nikon and Pan's aren't quite as firm but they are both still growing and eating a lot (Coke and Kenya only need 2 cups of food total each day).

I am still doing Orijen LBP but at some point would like to switch to a less expensive food, maybe even one I don't have to drive to another town to get. Even the adult Orijen is cheaper and it says it has about the same calcium levels as puppy. I also like the idea of the California Natural Lamb & Rice, not sure how the price compares. I am going to take a look at it. I know it is sold in the local "nicer" pet store.

I feed Pinnacle and add stuff the same way Lies does.

I switched Riva to Solid Gold Wolf Cub. She started to get a little itchy while on the chicken formula, so I looked for a much different protein source. She's doing great on it and really loves it. Not that she's been picky, she will eat anything. I broke my own rule of not using a puppy formula, but the Wolf King's protein and fat contents were too low for her age, IMO.

When Josie was a puppy i had her on Solid Gold Wolf Cub. That was what the breeder was feeding so i just stuck with it. She now eats grain free Canidae, she will be switching to single grain free canidae, alittle cheaper than the grain free one . Josie only stayed on puppy food til she was 6 months old though.

I have a question for those feed both NB and Cali Nat... I have always noticed that both of these foods are a lot lower in protein/fat content but know a few of the formulations have over 500kcals per cup... this confuses me and has never seemed to add up in terms of what one would expect when looking at a guaranteed analysis. Has anyone had issues with having pups or active dogs on these lower protein foods? Does anyone know what the kcal amounts are of the formulations they are feeding?

Thanks,
Cherri

Cherri, I don't have my puppy on Cal Natural Chicken and Rice but I've had Starine, my DM dog, on it for years and she has done wonderfully, especially in maintaining firm stools.

I do check the kcals on the foods I feed all of my dogs. Riva is now 7 months old and I have switched her to Canidae Beef and Fish in keeping up with my rotational diet. I like the Calcium (1.4) and Phosphorus (1.0) counts and it has 457 kcals per cup. That's the appr. amount I like to keep all of my dogs on.

Nope, never had any issues with them. They formulate them specifically that way to be easier on the gut, but still have good ingredients in them.

Elsa has been on straight NB off and on quite a bit before. She trains regularily pretty hard and has NEVER had issues on it with energy.

But I do think there are BETTER foods to feed dogs if you don't NEED an LID. If your dog DOES need a LID....they are wonderul.

I was just doing some more reading on the calcium thing:
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/large.html

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

I use the LID for the first months, usually going from CA Natural to Pinnacle and then on to grain frees.

Here is the CA Natural Herring: http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1326
Protein 21.065 %
Fat 11.677
Omega 3 1.587 %
Fiber 3.657 %
Calcium 0.999 %
419 kcal/cup (4.3 oz = 1 cup)
Herring
Barley
Oatmeal
Herring Meal
Herring Oil
Sunflower Oil
Sweet Potatoes

So not real meaty/proteiny but for a while...it seems to help them keep a nice steady growth, good stools, calm stomachs?

I now know why people get headaches looking for puppy food! I'm looking for a mid range food for my sister's new lab puppy. Single income so not top of the line and not bottom of the barrel. Any suggestions in the $40 range?

Well, I love those California Naturals foods for puppies - or the Pinnacle if the right calcium levels. I think they are in that range?

I posted a sticky on puppy food on .com

Part of it - probably will not format well. I used the article Lisa posted above too.
6. Consider not feeding a food with so many ingredients to very young puppies and introduce new ones over time, similar to feeding babies: Adaptation to the Diet (link is above)

7. Calcium information - note that they are not talking ratio but calcium number and are not talking protein amounts but keeping large puppies LEAN:
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%2...%20puppies.pdf

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

Large Breed Puppy Diet Recommendations Be sure to read it all as it talks about energy as well.
Quote:

1. Calcium: The ideal calcium content, on a dry weight basis is 0.7%-1.2%-. AAFCO recommendation is 1%-2.5% which is generally acceptable though not ideal; however, for giantbreeds, such as the Great Dane, the lower end of this range is especially recommended. It is believed that calcium in excess of 3% on a dry weight basis can predispose to significant skeletal abnormalities, such as those mentioned above. Keep in mind, also, that adding of vitamins, particularly Vitamin D, will also increase absorption of dietary calcium (to possibly excessive levels).

Sources of Vitamin D would likely include the sun?
Ester C also has calcium in it.
Check vitamins or supplements if you give them, for calcium.

Reviving this helpful thread. I searched and searched for a list of premium foods that list the foods by Calcium content, and I couldn't find one. So I chomped through the nutrient analysis of

a) the foods listed on http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/ From there:

Innova Dry Puppy Food has 1.07% Ca, and the adult Innova dry foods around 1.2%.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2287

Wellness Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy has "Calcium Not Less Than 1.0%
Calcium Not More Than 1.40%"
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2205

b) the Natura foods at the Natura page http://www.naturapet.com/ and found none of them in the recommended range of 0.7% to 1.2% Ca. They are around 2% and more.

Would anyone have comments, recommendations, experience with these foods? Thanks!