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Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. #136981
02/27/11 03:22 AM
02/27/11 03:22 AM
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elisabeth Offline OP
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Do you think it is necessary to have your puppy enrolled in puppy classes AND belong to a club (schutzhund)?

I didn’t plan on attending obedience classes outside of the time we train at the club but was wondering what others have done?

I have a core group of dogs that we train with nightly (at least 4-5 times per week) at various locations (parks, neighbourhoods, malls, parking lots, sidewalks, middle of the city, country roads and forests, etc.) and we sometimes have new dogs come with us to train, or at least play with ours after our training is finished.

The trainers in this area are very “pet obedience” motivated while I agree that this type of training is all well and good - I personally don’t believe that it is the route I want to go with my new puppy. I did A LOT of “fixing” with Stark once we started at the club and don’t want to make the same mistakes twice.

What types of formal training classes did you participate in with your working dog? Or did you for-go the classes and stick solely with the club training?

I have also been taking agility classes with Stark and enjoy that and was hoping to take the new puppy there as well. Would this be beneficial to our schutzhund training or not?


K-W German Shepherd Club

Wild Winds Archangel Raphael "Stark", HIC, TT
G Wild Winds Zephyr "Zefra" BH, HIC, NTD, ITD, CGN, TT
" XX " z Weberhaus
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: elisabeth] #136988
02/27/11 03:32 AM
02/27/11 03:32 AM
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Southwest, MI
Jane Jean Offline
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I took my pup to Schh club regularly when he was 10 weeks old, we just went for socializing and a bit of evaluation, support. But we went consistantly(then changed clubs:(
I took Karlo to a puppy playtime for socializing(3x's) and saw he was fine so never went back. Then I took him to an obedience class at about 4-5 mos. I didn't do the " NO jumping on me" exercises or squashed his drive, but he was handler sensitive, so obedience came easily with no correcting.

I never had to put pressure/ correction until he was almost 2(now).
It all depends on the dog, the level of their threshold and genetics.

IF I waited to start Karlo til now(in all 3 phases) it would not have been detrimental.

I think though, if you can get the pup to experience all or any different training venues, it is beneficial as long as you aren't over obediencing them.

Confidence building is most important in whatever you do...you can always bring that down/building it up is the challenge.


Onyx
Karlo
Gambit
SweetClover3.17.94~11.24.08 Kacie 7.21.2005-5.01.2015
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Jane Jean] #136991
02/27/11 03:40 AM
02/27/11 03:40 AM
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elisabeth Offline OP
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This is what I was hoping to hear. I can do a few drop in sessions with Stark's old obedience instructor if needed just for the experience of being in a group class like that but I have no intention of using her methods (great for pet people, but not what I want to do with mine).


K-W German Shepherd Club

Wild Winds Archangel Raphael "Stark", HIC, TT
G Wild Winds Zephyr "Zefra" BH, HIC, NTD, ITD, CGN, TT
" XX " z Weberhaus
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: elisabeth] #137007
02/27/11 04:33 AM
02/27/11 04:33 AM
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Northern British Columbia
Castlemaid Offline
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With your experience, knowledge, goals, and resources, no, not necessary. You still can if you want to - fun to get out and do stuff with a puppy, and nice socialization for a puppy, but you are already all set up to meet those needs in other ways.

When I got Gryff, he was six months old, and started basic obedience classes with him right away; I knew how important this was for bonding and developing a relationship, as it has made all the difference in my relationship with Keeta.

But I dropped out after a few classes, because I felt it was counter-productive for my goals. For one thing, there were a lot of exercises I passed on, like Jane, and also I felt that the pace was too fast, and I didn't want to move ahead until I felt that some basics were very solid - for example, I didn't want to take one single step in heeling unless I had 100% focus - and that takes more than a couple of weeks to instill before we go from a stationary focus to a moving one. So I was spending a lot of time in a corner working on stuff on my own instead of following the class, so there wasn't much point in me going, especially since I would have to drive quite a distance for the classes.

I don't think that Gryff's obedience suffered any because of it. wink


Lucia

Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD
Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? Shelter rescue
Gryffon Vom Wildhaus BH
"Bites Through the Sleeve" Cuddlebug, b: Mar 2009
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Castlemaid] #137018
02/27/11 05:03 AM
02/27/11 05:03 AM
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Minnesota, USA
Vinnie Offline

The Italian One
Vinnie  Offline

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Minnesota, USA
I agree with Jane & Lucia.

I'd maybe go more for a social thing than for training purposes but it sounds like you've got a group already set-up for that where you go to various locations.


Home of;
Sundance (Ezio zu Treuen Händen, ADC, BH, HIC)
Butch (Dario von der Staatsmacht, APr3, NW1, L1V, HIC, ORT-AC)
& Wyatt the cat

R.I.P. Dalton - Death leaves a heartache no one can heal, love leaves a memory no one can steal.

The Black Dog's Photographer
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: elisabeth] #137025
02/27/11 05:44 AM
02/27/11 05:44 AM
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Northern British Columbia
Northern GSDs Offline
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I'm with the others as well. You really have "puppy on the mind" don't you grin


Nicole
SchH Addict

GSDs
Brodie (Shelter Rescue). Jun '99-Oct '11. Missing You xoxo

Jax vom Kiebitzende (HOT) SchH1 HIT
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Northern GSDs] #137035
02/27/11 07:05 AM
02/27/11 07:05 AM
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elisabeth Offline OP
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elisabeth  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Northern GSDs
I'm with the others as well. You really have "puppy on the mind" don't you grin


I totally do.

I spent the afternoon at Stark's breeder one day last week visiting (okay, to really spend some time with Lexi, a female I am considering a pup from whistle ) and she had 11, four week old pups from another female of hers that I got to cuddle. I also just fell more in love with Lexi and Shep (Stark's sire) and made me want one of their pups so very badly.

Last edited by elisabeth; 02/27/11 07:05 AM.

K-W German Shepherd Club

Wild Winds Archangel Raphael "Stark", HIC, TT
G Wild Winds Zephyr "Zefra" BH, HIC, NTD, ITD, CGN, TT
" XX " z Weberhaus
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: elisabeth] #137042
02/27/11 07:42 AM
02/27/11 07:42 AM
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Northern British Columbia
Northern GSDs Offline
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I read that!! And I have to say wub


Nicole
SchH Addict

GSDs
Brodie (Shelter Rescue). Jun '99-Oct '11. Missing You xoxo

Jax vom Kiebitzende (HOT) SchH1 HIT
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: elisabeth] #137066
02/27/11 01:49 PM
02/27/11 01:49 PM
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Michigan
Wayne Offline
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Wayne  Offline
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Canada...Minnesota...Michigan...this thread looks like its just a bunch of Northerner's typing to keep their fingers warm on a cold February night!!!! I am sick of the SNOW!!!

Anyway, great thread...can totally relate to not repeating what you did with Stark, or what I did with Dayna. The "GSDs of the Great White North" crew have given you solid advice, which you did not need. So let me jump on the validation pile and say it sounds like you are all over this puppy raising thing. Should be an awesome dog you're raising, and you're close enough I can't think of a reason Jane and I should not have an opportunity to meet you and this pup someday!!!

It is almost 8am, the sun it up high enough, I am going out into the cold now to run the dogs on the "nature trails"....seems wrong to call the hiking area that, although every local does...it would be more accurate to call them "squirrel hunting paths".


India vom Wildhaus
Dayna von Royale BH FO CGC Therapy Dog, Inc.
http://libertyworkingdogs.com/default.aspx
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Wayne] #137076
02/27/11 03:19 PM
02/27/11 03:19 PM
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McAlester, OK
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out
Kayos  Offline

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McAlester, OK
Me thinks Elisabeth is getting serious puppy fever!!! Since I don't do SchH I have nothing to offer! smile


Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Kayos] #137107
02/27/11 04:44 PM
02/27/11 04:44 PM
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Michigan, USA
lhczth Offline

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I go to classes more to just get my puppy out and about a lot of other dogs. I train on my own and don't follow what goes on in the class, but I have been around for a long time so they all know me. I do like the intro to agility class for the pups. From what you have described you will probably not need the classes except for the occasional drop in session for something different to do.


Lisa Clark
Zu Treuen Händen
SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB IPO2 KKL B/HOT (the ugly little sable), Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD and gone, but not forgotten: Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Kayos] #137113
02/27/11 04:55 PM
02/27/11 04:55 PM
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Fairfield, Ca.
Schnickle Fritz Offline
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i think the question is "how serious are you about schutzhund?". i raised fritz in a working dog way in that i didnt do alot of corrections while young. didnt encourage jumping up on us, but didnt correct it, didnt encourage him biteing and mouthing us, but didnt correct it. never played the "chase me game" with him (us chasing him) always played tug and encouraged that. i never let him get into a scarey situation, and if something happened that was scary to him i never reenforced his worried reaction just patiently waited untill we could reapproach the thing/person/situation. that being said i also took him everywhere and encouraged all kinds of environmental contacts. like the construction zone, the horse shows, the folk festival, the mondio championships... my trainer was not at a petstore or the city, our early training was just us and maybe a few others who where about the same level or at least working on a compatable issue. now we are a demo unit. while i want to do schutzhund, and am now with a club, i wanted my dog to be well rounded in anything i do. rally, herding, OB....all of it. that being said, though, my main goal is to have a dog that i can take absolutely everywhere with me and know that he will behave. that is the most important thing- a true GSD. alot of schutzhund/ringsprt folks i know dont think that way. they have thier dogs for sport only.


Have a great day!!!
NLS

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Fritz vom Banach TR1 TT RN RA BN NW1 BH 10/10/09
Cuvee' d' la Maze ORT-BCA BH 01/14/11
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Schnickle Fritz] #137126
02/27/11 06:15 PM
02/27/11 06:15 PM
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Ontario
elisabeth Offline OP
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elisabeth  Offline OP
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Besides the point about not doing any "pet obedience" that is how I raised Stark - and not with SchH in mind, I just wanted a well rounded dog.

I did a lot of foundation work with Stark that WAS ALL WRONG so when we joined the club we needed to correct that (positions, heeling, focus, squashed his drive which I am happy to say has improved 10 fold at this point from where it was).

I NEED a dog who I can take everywhere and do everything with yet will still kick some butt out on the field.

One thing I enjoy doing with my dogs is trying a bit of everything (herding, agility, might like to try flyball) and would like to include the newest addition along with that.

SchH is my main goal and I would like to title in the sport with at least 1 dog (not sure if Stark will be able too, we have a little ways to go still) but like I said, I really need a dog who is comfortable and confident in any situation I put him in because of my lifestyle.


K-W German Shepherd Club

Wild Winds Archangel Raphael "Stark", HIC, TT
G Wild Winds Zephyr "Zefra" BH, HIC, NTD, ITD, CGN, TT
" XX " z Weberhaus
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Kayos] #137182
02/27/11 10:49 PM
02/27/11 10:49 PM
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Northern British Columbia
Northern GSDs Offline
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Northern British Columbia
Originally Posted By: Kayos
Me thinks Elisabeth is getting serious puppy fever!!! smile



Oh yes!!! I would say Elisabeth's temperature is sky rocketing! Better get some Tylenol and cool compresses grin


Nicole
SchH Addict

GSDs
Brodie (Shelter Rescue). Jun '99-Oct '11. Missing You xoxo

Jax vom Kiebitzende (HOT) SchH1 HIT
Re: Raising and training a puppy with schH in mind. [Re: Northern GSDs] #137238
02/28/11 01:58 AM
02/28/11 01:58 AM
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Liesje Offline
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I think even raising a puppy w/ Schutzhund in mind there is a lot of variation because there is still a great deal of variation among the dogs. I prefer dogs with a bit of a higher threshold and not nutty prey drive, so my Nikon and Pan have both been relatively easy, well-mannered puppies without much effort on my part. Neither have been mouthy to me at all, never even had to work on or train this. They are not the dogs that chase and bite anything that moves. Pan bit our pants but that lasted about a day. I tend to give my puppies quite a bit of freedom with the other dogs because I don't kennel or crate-and-rotate so everyone needs to learn to get along, plus I think there are some things that dogs do together as far as play and teaching life lessons that I cannot substitute. That said, none of my other dogs over-correct a puppy so that has never been an issue. If anything, I will step in eventually because the puppy is getting too rambunctious.

I did puppy classes with both Pan and Nikon but it was more for us to just get out and proof things like eye contact and self-control around other dogs. I don't train the same way as my puppy class trainer but she respects that. We just kind of do our own thing. I don't do any of the exercises like letting someone else handle my dog, and I don't use puppy class for dog-dog socialization. I've never had issues with puppy class being detrimental, but going in I already know how I plan to train the dog as far as SchH and I know how to tailor the puppy training so that the dog isn't getting mixed messages.

Likewise I've never had issues with agility either, but like I said above, SchH is my priority and how I train in any other venue is tailored to compliment SchH. We do agility, dock diving, herding, rally, and now flyball and lure coursing. I loved doing agility with Nikon (we can only do it May-Sept), I think it obviously helped with his jump technique but also self-control and staying biddable and attentive while in drive, and more problem solving opportunities.

As far as the general raising and training of puppies I really don't think I'd raise a non-SchH dog any differently than I've been raising Pan and Nikon.

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