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Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: ALLIE&ATHENA] #17650
03/11/10 02:46 AM
03/11/10 02:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 253
Massachusetts
vio79 Offline OP
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vio79  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: ALLIE&ATHENA
If you think any of it is habit or psychological maybe more steriods while on the new food w/o flax.Why I suggest this is because of my cat.She fractured her hip,it healed then a month or so after she was licking the fur off the area.It was red and raw from her obsession.We tried pain meds on case her hip was sore and she still licked it.After being on the pred with wearing a cone for like 2 weeks she stopped licking and it eventually healed.She is all better now.
Just a thought.I so hope he gets ALL better soon.Poor guy.


It's a good thought, but I feel like we've done that before. Max has basically been on the cone/muzzle for 9 months straight. There was a stretch of 3 weeks after his tail healed from surgery when he actually didn't need anything. And then he went to training camp...

Our vet didn't want us to start giving him Pred every day (we were giving it every other day and it didn't work). And it's not all psychological, because he'll wake up from a dead sleep scratching other areas of his body. I just think he may be a little obsessed with his feet at this point, because he's had so many issues with them since we got him and may just be in the habit, like your cat was. If it were ONLY his feet, I'd totally try your method!!!

Thanks for the thoughts!

Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: vio79] #17834
03/11/10 02:03 PM
03/11/10 02:03 PM
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Posts: 1,083
Rhode Island
LJsMom Offline
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The Evo Herring & Salmon is out - it contains cottage cheese. If you can get the Orijen fish, I think it would be worth a try.


Joanne

Kryska's Ironwill Steel Train SD (Siberian Husky) 8-6-99
Miss Mila Monster (GSD) 4-14-02

Waiting at the bridge:
Lady Jane Cobb (GSD - age 15)
Sasha (Siberian Husky - age 13)
Niko (Siberian Husky - age 14)
Wooly Bear (Siberian Husky - age 13)
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: LJsMom] #17890
03/11/10 03:50 PM
03/11/10 03:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 253
Massachusetts
vio79 Offline OP
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vio79  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LJsMom
The Evo Herring & Salmon is out - it contains cottage cheese. If you can get the Orijen fish, I think it would be worth a try.



Darn, I forgot about his supposed dairy allergy. I'm losing it.

The poor baby - last night he had pure diarrhea, and we could tell he was having trouble. He kept us up all last night with his itching. And he's pretty bad today too.

I'M LOSING IT.

We also gave him buffered aspirin this morning, because his limp seems to be getting worse. He bunny-hopped up the front stairs last night, which he never does. Course the aspirin has corn starch in it, but so does his food.

Really don't know what to do. I'm really discouraged. And all my husband and I do is argue now, because we're so tired and frustrated with Max.

Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: vio79] #17899
03/11/10 04:13 PM
03/11/10 04:13 PM
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Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
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Tracy, I'd like to applaud you for the enormous amount of care and compassion you have for your Max! I followed your thread for awhile on the other board, but lost track and am glad to see you here and that you are still perservering, despite an apparent lack of progress. I just went back and read all 28 pages of the original thread, and I know you are thinking food allergy and I hope the solution is that it was flax all along, because that is manageable, but I was wondering what protocol was followed for the two Ivermectin courses? And when the last time a skin scraping was done and was anything seen? One of the things my vet gets very annoyed with is how many times they see dogs with chronic skin issues who have been treated with ivermectin inappropriately. I know you had mentioned that it may have helped the first time but you saw no change the second time you tried it, but Ivermectin can take months to be effective. Also, mites are often really hard to find on skin scraping. With the amount of steroids he has been on, I wouldn't be surprised to see demodex at this point on a skin scraping. If I lived near you I would do it for you just to see and so you didn't have to deal with the vet again! Heck, you could mail me a sample and I'd take a look if you want. I've got access to a microscope.


Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: vio79] #17900
03/11/10 04:17 PM
03/11/10 04:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,451
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
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Woodreb  Offline
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At this point, could you try giving him a little pumpkin to help with the diarrhea? If he still has the itchies on this diet, it may not hurt.


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: Tara] #17908
03/11/10 04:32 PM
03/11/10 04:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 253
Massachusetts
vio79 Offline OP
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vio79  Offline OP
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Thanks Kristin smile

I keep wondering if maybe it's still mange somehow, because it just seems too crazy to be a food allergy. And with the red spots and stuff - I don't know.

Anyway, the first time, I believe our vet scraped, found nothing, and did an injection to be safe. She might have done two rounds. My mind is fuzzy. Along with the injection, she also had Max on prednisone and Z/D food. When the itching cleared up within a week, she assumed it was NOT food.

But then the itching came back. They did a scraping and found nothing. So we put him on three weeks of oral Ivermectin, which didn't seem to have an effect.

I believe that's all the treatment we did. You would think by now we'd be itchy ourselves from mites, if that's what they are. I'm on the floor with Max all the time.

Maybe it's time to check out a new vet for a second opinion. I've gotten two recommendations for one in Bolton, about 40 minutes from me. It's been almost a month since I've been home with Max, so I'm thinking his issues are not stress-related.

Johanna - I was considering pumpkin for the diarrhea since we have some. I know probiotics didn't help in the past.

Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: LJsMom] #17917
03/11/10 04:52 PM
03/11/10 04:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 253
Massachusetts
vio79 Offline OP
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vio79  Offline OP
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Okay Joanne - I called Dr. Caviness's office and we have an appointment for next Monday at 10:30 a.m.

Please cross your fingers that he can help figure out what's wrong with Max!!!!!

Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: vio79] #17922
03/11/10 04:59 PM
03/11/10 04:59 PM
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Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
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You're welcome! And the offer is open to take a look, just PM me if you decide to and we can come up with a plan. When I worked at a vet, I did a lot of searching for and finding mites.

Originally Posted By: vio79
You would think by now we'd be itchy ourselves from mites, if that's what they are. I'm on the floor with Max all the time.


Not necessarily. There are two types of mange- demodectic mange and sarcoptic mange.

With demodectic mange, you would not be itchy at all. Demodex is a mite that is host-specific to an individual dog. All dogs have demodex mites, but in most cases their immune system suppresses them and prevents itchiness. In immune compromised dogs, demodex causes itchiness. Sometimes a stress event can be the first cause- it may be that staying at the training boot camp was stressful enough to set it off. It's most common in young dogs and usually resolves itself, but can be found in older dogs and can be very very difficult to treat. It may be that the dose of oral Ivermectin was just too low to see any improvement.

Sarcoptic mange is the highly contagious form of mange that I think most people think of when they think of "mange". And while you and your husband could pick up mites from Max, I'm not sure how itchy they would cause you to be. Humans are not a primary host for sarcoptes, so they don't proliferate or necessarily cause the massive amounts of itchiness that you see in Max. I think it would be more localized itching that resolved itself. Also, I know Max has some dog aggression issues, so I'm guessing he's not around any other dogs to have passed it on.

ETA: Good luck at your appointment on Monday! I hope that this new vet can help you figure out a successful plan of attack.

Last edited by Tara; 03/11/10 05:01 PM. Reason: Saw updated post from OP

Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: vio79] #17924
03/11/10 04:59 PM
03/11/10 04:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,203
Alabama
aubie Offline
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Alabama
Fingers crossed for Mr. Max and his AWESOME owners!!! You guys are a true example of great owners who try everything for their pet...it's inspiring! Hugs to you all!!! hug


Tiffany mom to:
Anna, GSD 9/21/08
Panzer, GSD 9/12/15
Duncan Dog RIP 2/99-10/15
Danger Kitties: Mia & Winston RIP Alley Cat 10/12, Simon 6/13
Andon two-legger
Anna's Dog Blog: www.annathegsd.blogspot.com
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: Tara] #17933
03/11/10 05:23 PM
03/11/10 05:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 253
Massachusetts
vio79 Offline OP
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Thanks Tiffany. I really hope we get resolution - I forget what life can be like with a healthy dog!!!

Kristin, thanks for that information. I always assumed it was sarcoptic mange, just because of what you said about demodectic, and that he could have picked it up when he was in NH for two weeks at training camp, since it was a kennel atmosphere. But, from what the holistic vet said and Max's other issues, he could very well have a compromised immune system, especially with all the steroids he's been on over the past several months.

At the appointment on Monday, I'll mention what you said and find out if it could be the cause. Don't worry about looking at a scraping for now - we'll see how the vet goes. Thank you for the offer!!

So Ivermectin could treat demodectic mange as well?
I would love to find out it's not a food allergy and get him back to a raw diet.

It's so funny how excited I get when another potential option/fix presents itself. (I was on cloud 9 when I thought it was flax.) I just hope that this time we get to the bottom of it and Max is healed! The poor poopy.

Five days to get through and then (hopefully) a vet who can help. And our regular vet has already faxed over Max's health records and vet's notes! When I called, she was like, "Are you still coming to us?" I told her yes, that we just wanted a second opinion because Max is no better than before. I would think they'd understand.

They also said we can give Max 1 to 2 buffered aspirin (325mg) twice a day with meals.



Last edited by vio79; 03/11/10 05:24 PM.
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: vio79] #17954
03/11/10 05:48 PM
03/11/10 05:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
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Tara  Offline
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Virginia
Yep, Ivermectin can be used to treat both types. If you used the Comfortis and the vet wants to do Ivermectin, make sure they know about the Comfortis. I think they are contraindicated.


Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: Tara] #17992
03/11/10 07:12 PM
03/11/10 07:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
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First of all, contact skin allergies can look very nasty and red and bumpy and not be mange. I'm going through this with my gf's dog right now and I also went through it with Basu. This foam or spray works very well for her dog: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=hot+spot+foam+dogs&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=7757694441727735682&ei=8zGZS7SsEsGttgfmvPC2CQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBYQ8wIwAg#ps-sellers

Daily baths just to the affected area with an oatmeal/coconut shampoo with a few drops of tea tree oil added in helped immensely. She is also on Inflammzyme which is helping a lot too. And we put her on a raw diet. She's still got problems but she's doing much better.

PLEASE do NOT use ivermectin on Max for potential mange. His immune system is such a mess and it could wreak absolute havoc on him and cause far more long-lasting problems. Comfortis (an oral pesticide, of course) should not be used with Ivermectin. If Max were my dog I wouldn't be using Comfortis on him unless he had a very bad flea problem.

I treated Rafi's demodex holistically and had 100% success. Someone else treated his stray pit bull the same way and also had 100% success and the pittie had lost of all his hair.

Here is the information on treating mange holistically: http://www.germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8493#Post8493

Topical sprays and shampoos with NEEM (Azmira makes a spray and a shampoo) and an apple cider vinegar & water spray (homemade) really helped Rafi a lot.


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: BowWowMeow] #17995
03/11/10 07:20 PM
03/11/10 07:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 253
Massachusetts
vio79 Offline OP
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vio79  Offline OP
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Massachusetts
Thanks Ruth.

I am going to see what the vet says Monday. Bathing Max "just" on his spots would mean bathing his whole body every day, which just isn't realistic for us. Maybe the vet will have additional ways we can treat it holistically, since he's both traditional and alternative. He'll have access to all of Max's files and history so would hopefully take all of that into consideration before determining a path.

He's not currently on Comfortis.

The other issue is that we don't know if it's mange - that was just something our vet thought initially and that Kristin suggested we consider, since no diet change seems to be helping. (We also had him on holistic herbs for about two weeks without any change.)

Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: BowWowMeow] #17996
03/11/10 07:20 PM
03/11/10 07:20 PM
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Posts: 4,748
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
BowWowMeow  Offline
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Buffalo
Let me say again how wonderful I think you are for hanging in there with Max! I went through this with Basu and have spent the last year dealing with health problems in my senior animals (down to one senior now) so I understand how frustrating and emotionally exhausting it all is! hugging

Coming in with more holistic help for diarrhea:

[Basu had terrible digestive problems and I've had to deal with very bad diarrhea in all of my dogs at some point or another]

This stuff rocks--it never fails to stop diarrhea: http://www.homeopet.com/digestiveupsets.html

Many stores sell it, including PetCo, I think.

When Rafi has digestive issues I put him on Perfect Form by Honest Kitchen. It worked really well for him.

Since he can't have probiotics you might want to try L-Glutamine and Slippery Elm. Both are very healing for the gut.

Lots of good products here--read the reviews and the ingredients carefully: http://search.onlynaturalpet.com/search.aspx?avs|Health+Condition=Diarrhea&avs|Pet+Type=Dogs


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: Mr. Max's Issue(s) [Re: BowWowMeow] #17997
03/11/10 07:23 PM
03/11/10 07:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,161
Virginia
Tara Offline
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Tara  Offline
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Virginia
Ruth, that's fantastic you were able to treat holistically. I'm very interested to read the thread you posted. No time at the moment, but I will take a look later.


Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006
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