German Shepherd Home
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Grain-Free Dog Food #117815
12/25/10 02:55 PM
12/25/10 02:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,713
NY
GSDTrain Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
GSDTrain  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,713
NY
I have been looking at different grain-free foods and was wondering what your thoughts were on the following foods....Orijen Adult Grain Free, Wellness Core and Acana Pacifica.

Also, if you have any other suggestions as to other grain free foods, please share!
Thanks!


~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: GSDTrain] #117820
12/25/10 03:07 PM
12/25/10 03:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,713
NY
GSDTrain Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
GSDTrain  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,713
NY
Also, what about Canidae Grain Free Salmon or Merrcik Before Grain Salmon?


~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: GSDTrain] #117835
12/25/10 04:27 PM
12/25/10 04:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,433
Southeastern Wisconsin
LauraHolder Offline
Veteran
LauraHolder  Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,433
Southeastern Wisconsin
I had Oscar on the Wellness Core Ocean formula for a while over the past couple months. He did well on it.

Fromm's has two grain-free formulas and American Natural Premium (manufactured by the Fromm company) has one as well. Both of those brands have been used in our house with success, although I haven't tried their respective grain-free formulas.

Hope that helps a bit!

Merry Christmas! smile


Laura Holder, CPDT-KA

The Fur-Kids:
Fanny, GSD, Rescued 2002
DOB circa December 1999
Shylo's "Oscar" Million, CGC
DOB 11/3/2009

http://holistic-canine.blogspot.com/
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: LauraHolder] #117837
12/25/10 04:52 PM
12/25/10 04:52 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 213
N.E. Wi.
marko Offline
Enthusiast
marko  Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 213
N.E. Wi.
Natuaral Balance limited ingred. are grain free. Have a great holiday.

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: marko] #117841
12/25/10 05:21 PM
12/25/10 05:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,753
Buffalo
BowWowMeow Offline
Carpal Tunnel
BowWowMeow  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,753
Buffalo
Orijen and Acana are the best (made by the same company) in terms of the quality of ingredients. They don't work for every dog though.

Kailor is on Nature's Variety Instinct and is doing well on that.

Where do you buy your dog food, Ashley?


Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: BowWowMeow] #117852
12/25/10 06:05 PM
12/25/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
Barb E Offline
Pooh-Bah
Barb E  Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
I feed Dante Nature's Logic and he's done VERY well on it over the last 2+ years.

Though some say it's grain free and others don't (Depends on people's definition of Millet http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-millet.htm )

Though the price tag can give sticker shock depending on the protein variety I've found over the years that it's costs me less than $1.75 a day to feed Dante

http://www.natureslogic.com/index.php


Dante - March 8, 2004 - May 06, 2017
Kaos von Wolfstraum - Oct 31, 2011

My Blog: https://barbrambling.wordpress.com/
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Barb E] #117854
12/25/10 06:06 PM
12/25/10 06:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
Barb E Offline
Pooh-Bah
Barb E  Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,275
Portland, Oregon
And I rotate per bag through the varieties so I'm not always feeding the cheapest and Dante is happy smile


Dante - March 8, 2004 - May 06, 2017
Kaos von Wolfstraum - Oct 31, 2011

My Blog: https://barbrambling.wordpress.com/
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Barb E] #117859
12/25/10 06:26 PM
12/25/10 06:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 468
DeLand, FL
Pikoda Offline
Addict
Pikoda  Offline
Addict
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 468
DeLand, FL
I rotate between the three brands you are looking at... Acana Pacifica, TOTW Pacific Stream and Wellness CORE original. My dogs do awesome on it!

BTW - Mason won the contest on my facebook page! cheers


Jessica, (aka KohleePiper) Proudly Owned By:

Diesel - GSD Sable 09/2008
Kohlee - Belgian Groenendael 02/2007
Piper - Pit/GSD mix 08/2006
Personalized Dog Collars, Leashes, & Pet ID tags
http://www.facebook.com/pikodacom
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Pikoda] #117860
12/25/10 06:35 PM
12/25/10 06:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
Rescues Rule Admin
JeanKBBMMMAAN  Offline
Rescues Rule Admin
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,618
I rotate too - Acana, Orijen, Nature's Logic are the main ones I rotate with. I try to switch every couple of months.

Congrats on the contest!!!

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN] #118046
12/26/10 08:14 PM
12/26/10 08:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,863
Illinois
AngelJ Offline
Carpal Tunnel
AngelJ  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,863
Illinois
We use the Wellness Core and Orijen.
Hero eats the reduced fat wellness and does very well with it.
Ella eats the large breed puppy and Jake alternates between the Six Fish and the Regional Red. I've been happy with all the formulas.


Angel

Pround mom of....


Ella RATI,RATO,CGC -GSD 7 years old,
Nash -GSD 5 years old
Jake,Hero,Bailey and Gus -GSD's-always in my heart
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: AngelJ] #118144
12/27/10 01:12 AM
12/27/10 01:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline
Veteran
kelso  Offline
Veteran
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
The dogs are really doing well with Merrick Before Grain Buffalo

It is also nice as you can get it at Petco


-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: kelso] #118154
12/27/10 01:28 AM
12/27/10 01:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 320
Southeastern, PA
Heidifarm Offline
Enthusiast
Heidifarm  Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 320
Southeastern, PA
Heidi is currently on Orijen and doing quite well on it. She was on the Wellness Core for a while too, but it just didn't quite agree with her completely so we tried the Orijen. She's been eating the Orijen for several months now and is doing well. I would also like to try the Acana.

Lucas has allergies so he eats Natural Balance venison and sweet potato and he is doing very well on that too.


Karen

Heidi Die Eitle Prinzessin, BH, TR1, CGC, TC - 06-16-06
Lucas Maly Medved, CGC - 08-27-08
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Heidifarm] #118613
12/28/10 04:29 AM
12/28/10 04:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 443
Tallahassee/ Sarasota FL
Koda's Mom Offline
Addict
Koda's Mom  Offline
Addict
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 443
Tallahassee/ Sarasota FL
I have tried the orijen and Acana, and recently tried TOTW to reduce calories....Out of the three Dakota actually LOVEs the ACANA! Which surprised me since the Orijen is supposed to be better. lol


-Kira

Fur Family:
Dakota "Koda" GSD 02/20/2008

"The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too"
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: AngelJ] #118685
12/28/10 01:47 PM
12/28/10 01:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Good_Karma  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
How come no one else ever feeds Evo? shrug

Both my dogs are on the red meat formula, and apart from a temporary increase in poops when we switched, they've done really well on it. Poops firm, once or twice a day. Both are always excited to eat it and finish every bit with just a sprinkle of water in the bowl.


Leah
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Good_Karma] #118956
12/29/10 01:24 PM
12/29/10 01:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 637
Indianapolis, Indiana
Lin Offline
Addict
Lin  Offline
Addict
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 637
Indianapolis, Indiana
A lot of people have switched away from Evo due to Natura being sold to P & G. There is a lot of fear that the quality will go down, and I know during the sale they were already considering changing the formulas and sending out questionares to get peoples opinion. The questionare stated adding carbohydrates to "balance" the formula. Read: cheapen the food so we make more profit.


Sorry dude. I can't live up to your expectations all of the time. Sometimes I'm going drink six miniature bottles of rum and then draw horses. That's just the way the world works.- Allie Brosh
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Lin] #118960
12/29/10 01:58 PM
12/29/10 01:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Good_Karma  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
But it's just guessing at this point to think that the formula has changed. Everyone is jumping ship on Natura products a bit prematurely I think.


Leah
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Good_Karma] #118971
12/29/10 02:31 PM
12/29/10 02:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 637
Indianapolis, Indiana
Lin Offline
Addict
Lin  Offline
Addict
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 637
Indianapolis, Indiana
Well thats exactly what happened when they bought out Iams, the formula changed. So its a case of knowing the history.


Sorry dude. I can't live up to your expectations all of the time. Sometimes I'm going drink six miniature bottles of rum and then draw horses. That's just the way the world works.- Allie Brosh
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: AngelJ] #118990
12/29/10 04:00 PM
12/29/10 04:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 229
Pocono`s, Pa
kutzro357 Offline
Enthusiast
kutzro357  Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 229
Pocono`s, Pa
Feed your dog what works best for your dog, meets your budget and is available in your area.
I fed Nutria Natural for many years with no issues then one of mine didn't agree with it so switched to various foods till I settled on Canidae ALS. When they improved their formula I knew it ahead of time and had some original left to make the transition. They had no issues and still do great.

Don't forget calories per cup or you'll be feeding more for the same energy.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: kutzro357] #119020
12/29/10 05:07 PM
12/29/10 05:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Online coffee
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Online Coffee
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
We use Nature's Variety Instinct and the Blue Buffalo Wilderness formulas. Both of mine do well on those.
I've tried the Wellness Core and the only problem I had was that Aodhán tends to get some pretty bad gas on that formula. Caleb never had it as I tried it for her when he was still a puppy and the formula is not recommended for large breed puppies.


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Good_Karma] #119755
01/01/11 10:30 AM
01/01/11 10:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
kelso Offline
Veteran
kelso  Offline
Veteran
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,490
Kansas
Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
How come no one else ever feeds Evo? shrug

Both my dogs are on the red meat formula, and apart from a temporary increase in poops when we switched, they've done really well on it. Poops firm, once or twice a day. Both are always excited to eat it and finish every bit with just a sprinkle of water in the bowl.


We feed EVO as well. EVO actually seemed to be the first big deal grain free. It is a good food. We mix it up alot between raw and kibble, have tried most of "high quality" kibbles. They seem to do good with all of them...except... GASP..Orijen..at least their fish formula seems a bit rich for Kelso..but he does pretty good with EVO red meat though.

Like said, what works for the dog(s) is what is best!
I like Urban Wolf the best for our two really..a hybrid of a premade mix with raw.... I do not know anyone else that feeds it though..and we do it off and on as it is pricey and as much as they like it it is easier to do raw/kibble ect


-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: kelso] #119773
01/01/11 01:58 PM
01/01/11 01:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Good_Karma Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Good_Karma  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,814
Belfast, NY
Has anyone tried the grain free Fromm? We just got a couple bags to try. Probably won't get to it real soon as we have an open bag of Evo. Also picked up a bag of the new California Naturals grain-free to try. Will try to remember to post how they tolerate it.


Leah
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Good_Karma] #119781
01/01/11 02:39 PM
01/01/11 02:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 98
Illinois, USA
R
Robin Huerta Offline
Member
Robin Huerta  Offline
Member
R
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 98
Illinois, USA
We feed EVO Red Meat, and our dogs are doing wonderful!
They have small stools, eat less quantity, maintain good weight, & have beautiful coats.
Until they "actually" change the quality of the food....we will continue to use it.
We have used Orijen Puppy for the (little ones)....but they don't seem to be consistent with their stools, and tend to have more gas.
We will try Wellness Just for Puppies on our current litter.
Robin


Huerta Hof German Shepherds
....where breeding is still considered an art....
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Robin Huerta] #119809
01/01/11 05:22 PM
01/01/11 05:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,961
Ohio
PositiveDog Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PositiveDog  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,961
Ohio
I am one who used to feed EVO (and suggested it to others) and stopped after the company sale.

Quote:
But it's just guessing at this point to think that the formula has changed. Everyone is jumping ship on Natura products a bit prematurely I think.


As far as jumping prematurely, I think not based on the reactions of some dogs I know. While the company will tell you the formulas has not changed, itchy dogs suddenly chewing at their feet says EVO is not the same.

Remember - the formula can be the same but the food sources change. I have no doubt they went to the suppliers they already had and that those proteins are inferior to what EVO was using.

If your dog is still on EVO and doing well, that's great.

However, if you have dogs with issues as some of ours do, we don't wait after we hear of others dogs reactions.

Skye and Buddy are now on Orijen 6 Fish. I needed a single source dog food due to Skye's autoimmune problems and this has done well for them.


Bonnie

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011
Bennie the 12 1/2% GSD 02/2013

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Good_Karma] #119876
01/01/11 10:57 PM
01/01/11 10:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4
D
DogMa Offline
New Member
DogMa  Offline
New Member
D
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4
My three love the grain-free Fromm (the original Surf and Turf formula with duck, salmon, chicken & eggs). I would like to try the new Beef grain-free one, but Faith can't have beef, so no one gets beef. nono

Their other fave is Acana Grasslands (lamb, duck, fish & eggs).

Edited to add: we removed Natura's products from our store shelves after P&G bought the company.

Last edited by DogMa; 01/01/11 10:59 PM.
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Lin] #119980
01/02/11 03:14 PM
01/02/11 03:14 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 213
N.E. Wi.
marko Offline
Enthusiast
marko  Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 213
N.E. Wi.
Originally Posted By: Lin
A lot of people have switched away from Evo due to Natura being sold to P & G. There is a lot of fear that the quality will go down, and I know during the sale they were already considering changing the formulas and sending out questionares to get peoples opinion. The questionare stated adding carbohydrates to "balance" the formula. Read: cheapen the food so we make more profit.


Evo was just alittle too rich for mine but was decent food.

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: Barb E] #341540
08/14/16 09:16 PM
08/14/16 09:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
J
jlstudent1970 Offline
Member
jlstudent1970  Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
HI I am a new member and I have a young GSD and I wanted to know if it is okay to rotate different brands of food. If yes how to you do it?

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: LauraHolder] #344714
07/16/17 12:56 AM
07/16/17 12:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
J
jlstudent1970 Offline
Member
jlstudent1970  Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
HI I am new here and I am trying American natural premium right now and I wanted to know if you still use it and if you still like it. Thank you.

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: jlstudent1970] #344729
07/16/17 06:45 PM
07/16/17 06:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
Originally Posted By: jlstudent1970
HI I am a new member and I have a young GSD and I wanted to know if it is okay to rotate different brands of food. If yes how to you do it?

Welcome! I actually can't answer either of your questions in this thread, but will give this one a try.

Some dogs, particularly GSDs have sensitive digestive systems and don't handle change so well. However, there are GSDs that handle this just fine.

The general recommendation when switching over foods is to blend them together over several days, adding less of the old food and more of the new food. I've found that some dogs can do this quickly, and others need more time. After a few transitions, you will get an idea of how quickly you can transition by watching your dog and stools.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: MaxaLisa] #344732
07/16/17 07:13 PM
07/16/17 07:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,611
SeanRescueMom Offline
Carpal Tunnel
SeanRescueMom  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,611
Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
[The general recommendation when switching over foods is to blend them together over several days, adding less of the old food and more of the new food. I've found that some dogs can do this quickly, and others need more time. After a few transitions, you will get an idea of how quickly you can transition by watching your dog and stools.


I agree with Lisa regarding the transition to a new food. When we switched Sean's food I was even more cautious, i.e. instead of mixing them over several days I increased the new with the old week by week. It took longer but in the end worked better for us. Good luck!


Sean - 1998/2014
If there ever comes a day when we can't be together, keep me in your heart I'll stay there forever.
Carleton DOB unknown
Neely - 2003/2015
Gizmo -2008/2011
Neeko -1991/2005
Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: AngelJ] #345065
09/03/17 12:42 PM
09/03/17 12:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
J
jlstudent1970 Offline
Member
jlstudent1970  Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
Hi I am new at rotating dog food, how do you start? I know that every dog is different, but if I start slow, like for say, use fromm for 6 months then another? and go back and fourth?

Re: Grain-Free Dog Food [Re: AngelJ] #345066
09/03/17 12:54 PM
09/03/17 12:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
J
jlstudent1970 Offline
Member
jlstudent1970  Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 144
how do you start rotating dog food? I want to try it.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Monthly Photo Contest Winner
Newest Topics
Stories
by Shilohsmom. 09/21/18 12:03 AM
Looking for an answer, pos. food issue?
by middleofnowhere. 09/20/18 02:52 AM
Happy Birthday Z!
by Zisso. 09/16/18 02:50 PM
The day my dog tried to kill me
by Sylv. 09/14/18 08:20 PM
Harness
by Todd. 09/12/18 08:48 PM
But Bennie wasn't broken!
by PositiveDog. 09/07/18 10:43 PM
Flea & Tick preventative
by Shilohsmom. 09/07/18 04:08 AM
I'm Back
by Chey & The Herd. 09/04/18 08:07 PM
September 2018 Photo Contest Entries
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 09/04/18 01:53 PM
Comments for September 2018 Contest
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 09/04/18 01:50 PM
Help Support the Forum
New Topics - Other Animals & Chat
East coast friends, please keep us posted
by PositiveDog. 09/13/18 08:27 PM
Kathy (Kayos Mod) could use us
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 09/04/18 01:34 PM
Happy Labor Day weekend
by Shilohsmom. 09/01/18 01:41 AM
Summer Produce/Winter YUM
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 08/30/18 04:46 PM
Punctuation Experts
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 08/25/18 07:39 PM
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (TimberWolf), 79 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
achilleas, Ruger0sasha, NurseBishop, Roguehk, Sydney
2921 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums100
Topics20,531
Posts326,959
Members2,921
Most Online209
Jul 31st, 2018
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1