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Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis #11711
02/28/10 04:04 AM
02/28/10 04:04 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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I guess two questions, one easy, one maybe hard.

First, are breeders aware that it appears that they have identified PFs come from a genetic disposition?

Second, do we have anyone that actually understands any complicated genetics? If so, I'm curious if there is anything interesting in this paper, other than it seems to identify a genetic marker for PFs (I think)?

http://www.koirangeenit.fi/dmdocuments/perianaalifistelia.pdf


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #11838
02/28/10 10:28 AM
02/28/10 10:28 AM
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kutzro357 Offline
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That`s the way it appears to me too from the paper. I`m dealing with PF right now. Lot`s of internet BS on it and can`t even find any real research that has been published and reviewed.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: kutzro357] #11842
02/28/10 11:07 AM
02/28/10 11:07 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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I don't have much, but have you seen the links in the PF thread in the Health Index?

On the PF list, lots of dogs are getting better with the cyclo, protopic protocol. Didn't work for my Max though, he gets better on a soup of antibiotics and an antifungal, just not better enough.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #11853
02/28/10 02:05 PM
02/28/10 02:05 PM
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kutzro357 Offline
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The problem with PF is there are no reliable studies and right now the #1 treatment is the cyclosporine and ketocomazole combo. Very effective in about 95% of the cases but 400 to 600 bucks a month.
There are some homeopathic recommendations and Imizol but almost nothing has been reviewed and duplicated. Same with the virgin single source protein feeding.

This has become a head banger for me because so many claims are unsubstantiated and I can`t afford wild goose chases. Our last regimen was prednisone, no change, stopped that now single source protein again no change. We do one change at a time so we change have more definitive and isolated results.

I`ve been avoiding antibiotics and vaccinations since PF is an auto-immune and already has the immune system in high gear attacking that area. I don`t want to stimulate the immune system even more.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: kutzro357] #11911
02/28/10 04:45 PM
02/28/10 04:45 PM
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Braverhund Offline
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I think very little research into PFs specificly is being done, and geneticly, breeders don't want to think about it. It happens "to old dogs only." (not true, of course)

But, this is like IBD. If Asko v d Lutter or Ghandi Arlett had this, who would report it? Where would it be recorded? Titles, sporting trial trophies and showring rosettes have been won, tons of expensive breedings taken place afterwards. I wish we had more genetic info on PFs.

The condition is so painful for a dog. Owners turn themselves into pretzels trying to fix this and find a cure that is affordable as well as effective. My heart goes out to you both. My last dog had PFs. The Trad Chinese herbs that cured it for 3 solid years were a freaky longshot that I am grateful for, but they may not work for each PF case.

Sending good thoughts out for both of your dogs, and all the dogs battling PF.


Patti
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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: Braverhund] #11986
02/28/10 08:43 PM
02/28/10 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Braverhund


Sending good thoughts out for both of your dogs, and all the dogs battling PF.


Thanks. The thing is there really aren`t all that many cases in the US or I should say reported cases. Having had a dozen GSD`s in my lifetime this is really the first serious issue I`ve had to deal with medically and one seriously fear aggressive dog 20 years ago.

It makes you wonder is this a genetic flaw from breeding or something were created because of over vaccinating dogs in their pedigree.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: kutzro357] #12006
02/28/10 09:20 PM
02/28/10 09:20 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Kutzro, you should have hopped onto the yahoo list. There are unfortunately new members all the time, and they also can tell you the best cost options.

(Modified) Generic Cyclo, 30 days of 100 mg will cost you $78 if you put your dog on the family plan at Walgreens. The keto cost me $20 for a month's supply through the derm, but you can also get the fish version, in a larger bottle for about $60 online if your vet jacks up the price a lot. If they will write you scripts, you can do a trial. So that brings your monthly cost down to about $100. If you want to add protopic topical, that's about $50 and I am still working on the tubes I got last year.

I started treating it on my own with the doxycycline/niaminicide protocol, since my boy has tick issues and seems to need doxy, and that protocol is often used to modulate the immune system, so you kill two birds with one stone. He's on amoxicillin because by accident we found that he greatly improved with this. Frankly, I think it's the tick issue. he's on Tylan too.

Some of my treatment was based on that Imizol thought actually, and at some point I am thinking I'd like to try that, but can't get a vet on board yet.

I almost had the PF closed with that. Went to see the Derm, she added the keto, he continued to get better. I have no idea why the Dem suggested it, and I haveno idea why I actually listened, but we played with backing off with each of the abx, and each time he had a bad advance in the PF. Then I used doxy tablets instead of capsule, that was bad too.

I tried the cyclo, I tried the protopic, no improvement, got worse on the cyclo. So I stopped anything that involved immune suppression, and with just the abx and keto, he is back to getting better, I think.

We sparred before on food, but seriously, no corn, no wheat, no by-products, and look for a single protein, single carb food.

The Derm said that about 1/2 he PF clients require cyclo. She has had remission with some just using a diet change, or a diet change with keto. Her experience is that just about all GSDs need the keto because of their susceptibility to yeast. Another dog she had was controlled with doxy, and that dog had previously had lyme.

I haven't heard of success without the food change though. All this has to be done at once to form an assault on the PF. There are almost always secondary bacterial issues, and yeast, too.

If the pred didn't help at all, I would think it might have been the food, or my other instinct is that your dog is like my boy. I would encourage you, in addition to the food change, to try the doxy/niacinimide protocol.

Whatever you do, I hope you find some relief for your dog, it's just a miserable disease process.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #12020
02/28/10 09:57 PM
02/28/10 09:57 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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I have battled inflammatory issues with Max since he came here at about 2 years old, it's been putting one fire out after another. Including the breeder, this is his 5th home. I have no idea what he might have picked up when he lived in Oklahoma or Colorado. I know he has had tick exposure here.


So, as a pup, my boy received parvo at roughly 6 weeks, and Vangaurd Plus 5 given at 7, 8, 9 and 12 weeks. Rabies at 6 months. Dewormed with Anthelban at 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 9 weeks, Albon at 7 and 8 weeks. I'm confident he was "fully" vaccinated at a year also.

So you take a breed with multiple genetic susceptibilities, shoot 'em up with 5 way vaccines *repeatedly* while their immune system is trying to learn and to mature, I am confident that this was damaging to him.

I don't think that genetic susceptibilities have to express themselves, but, like you, I do think that the vaccines can play a role, causing damage on their own, or triggering those susceptibilities.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #12040
02/28/10 10:39 PM
02/28/10 10:39 PM
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kutzro357 Offline
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I was giving 100mg cyclosporine twice daily and 200mg ketoconazole twice a day. My vet doesn`t dispense meds just writes prescriptions. I checked online and even across the border. My personal friend who is a physician got it for me (generic) at his cost and it was 400 a month. Many on yahoo are paying 600 to 800 a month.
Side effects were lousy, lot`s of barfing.

It`s very hard to discern the good info on yahoo from the bad and I hate the format.

The vet I use was a referral from the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary College.

The Imozol(imidocarb dipropionate) paper was a very small sample group and rumor is a large number of dogs died. I called and talked to the drug maker from NJ, Sherring Plough and they are the ones that told me that they had no record of the study because there was no peer to peer review


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: kutzro357] #12053
02/28/10 10:51 PM
02/28/10 10:51 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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No, on yahoo I can guarantee you that they are not paying that much per month.

I can tell you that the majority of them are paying $78 a month for a once a day dose (so your dose would have been about $160). I can tell you that I paid $78 for it a couple of months ago, still have some sitting in the kitchen. The only ones paying that much are the ones that haven't found a vet to write a script, and they soon change vets once they get on the list if that is the case. I think without getting your dog on the family plan does at least double the price. It's not that I don't believe your prices from your friend, it's just that I don't believe your friend found the cheapest place.

I don't believe in rumors. Imozol is used for Babesia and also for chronic ehrlichia. We see it used on the tick list, and we've seen it safely used. Because of that connection, that is what I would like to try if we get to that point. If we do get to that point, I would use it according to the tick protocol on the tick list, rather than how it was used in that one study.

If you are waiting for a study to get your dog better, it ain't gonna happen.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #12061
02/28/10 11:06 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Here's your guy if you want to talk genetics and vaccination: http://www.rvc.ac.uk/Staff/bcatchpole.cfm

Brian is also involved in a study characterising innate immune response genes in German Shepherd dogs to determine whether these are involved in susceptibility of this breed to various disease syndromes (including anal furunculosis and inflammatory bowel disease). Alongside this, Brian is also examining the genetics of vaccine responses in dogs; how immune response genes can influence the response to vaccination.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #12099
03/01/10 12:10 AM
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kutzro357 Offline
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
It's not that I don't believe your prices from your friend, it's just that I don't believe your friend found the cheapest place.

I don't believe in rumors. Imozol is used for Babesia and also for chronic ehrlichia. We see it used on the tick list, and we've seen it safely used. Because of that connection, that is what I would like to try if we get to that point. If we do get to that point, I would use it according to the tick protocol on the tick list, rather than how it was used in that one study.


My Mom has been his office manager and RN for 35 years. She made the calls. Where are they buying it for that price and what is the generic and drug company making it. I also have a relative that is a drug rep for Merk.

The Imizol in the study was injected subcutaneously but it doesn`t say where. At the fistula sight or just an inter-muscular injection.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: kutzro357] #12108
03/01/10 12:23 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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It's made by Teva, Cycosporine Capsules USP Modified 100 mg.

Call up Walgreens, ask them how much they charge for it. Then ask how much they charge if you are on their family or individual plan (forgot to say, that costs something like $25). The difference is stunning.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: MaxaLisa] #12747
03/02/10 11:48 AM
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Thanks, I`m going to be by a Walgreens tomorrow and will go in with the scripts to see the pharmacist.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: kutzro357] #12780
03/02/10 03:48 PM
03/02/10 03:48 PM
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My understanding of PF is that it is an auto-immune disorder. The one dog I have had as a breeder for many years was from a litter were others had different problems -- we lost one to a vaccine reation, one to myathenis gravis (sp), and others had allergies. The stud dog we bred to was later found to have produced a wide variety of problems.


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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/AnalFuruniculosis [Re: Andaka] #12884
03/02/10 07:40 PM
03/02/10 07:40 PM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Kutzro, I hope you can find some relief for your dog. The cyclo was toxic to Max, and made the PF worse frown

Andaka, that's very interesting. The Derm we see has said that she thinks all this weird stuff that the GSDs get are most likely from the same part of the funky GSD immune system. Your experience sounds very consistent with that.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/Kutzro [Re: MaxaLisa] #18122
03/12/10 01:04 AM
03/12/10 01:04 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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Kutzro, didn't want to hijack the other thread.

You mentioned that Walgreen's was going to get back to you. They shouldn't have to do any research on it????

I do agree about the side effects though, and I understand not trying it again, regardless of the price.

I'm happy with the direction we are taking with Max right now. I'll know more in about a week though.

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 03/12/10 01:04 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/Kutzro [Re: MaxaLisa] #18132
03/12/10 01:29 AM
03/12/10 01:29 AM
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I called and they were busy. They called back today. It`s a good deal. Half what I was paying so we may try it at half the original dose. Vet seems to think that`s worth a try and then maybe we can back off even more.

It`ll be 15 ket and 75 for the cyclo. That dose was 15 days but were stretching it to 30 and going to see how that works.


*
"If I only had three words of advice, they would be, Tell the Truth. If got three more words, I'd add, all the time."
— Randy Pausch
Re: Genetics of PerianalFistulas/Kutzro [Re: kutzro357] #18134
03/12/10 01:31 AM
03/12/10 01:31 AM
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MaxaLisa Offline OP

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crossedfingers I'm hoping for a positive update!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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