German Shepherd Home
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb] #106803
11/22/10 04:19 AM
11/22/10 04:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,033
L
LifeAsMe Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
LifeAsMe  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
L
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,033
Great article! Thanks Johanna!

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb] #106825
11/22/10 04:43 AM
11/22/10 04:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Woodreb
And what I got from that article is that even if a probiotic is stabilized you should still refrigerate to protect from heat until you are going to use it.


Mine says specifically "do NOT refrigerate", and also to replace cap, which leads me to believe that they should not be exposed to air.

This link has an interesting argument against enteric coating, and also notes that it's the strain that is acid resistent, and not to rely on a coating:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_Feb-March/ai_97994369/?tag=content;col1

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 11/22/10 04:44 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: MaxaLisa] #106854
11/22/10 05:31 AM
11/22/10 05:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Lisa,

That is an interesting article, although I thought the sudden discussion of mitochondrial dysfunction seemed to be from some other article and didn't exactly fit with the topic.

I can see the point about the coating process although, I also note that the article is from 2003 and would be interested to see if any other studies, like benefit or no benefit to the use of an enteric coating, has been performed since then. I can certainly see that capsules to protect the contents have the least chance of causing degradation, although since I'm not a formulator I'm really not familiar with the enteric coating process.

Perhaps the particular strains in the product you are using also have some low temperature sensitivity?


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb] #106882
11/22/10 08:10 AM
11/22/10 08:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
I thought it was weird that the article side-tracked for awhile...maybe it was excerpted from somewhere?

I didn't notice the date on that article.

Here is an interesting blurb:
"While enteric coating keeps the ingredients in, it does not necessarily keep stomach acid out. Additionally, the process of enteric coating requires high temperatures which can also damage the fragile bacteria."
http://www.acidophiluspearls.com/

I have used acidophilus pearls before, and they worked well.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: MaxaLisa] #106952
11/22/10 02:44 PM
11/22/10 02:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
You've got my curisity aroused about the coating process. I'm going to talk to a formulator friend of mine next weekmand find out a little more about the process.

It's an interesting blurb - I wish it was not in the context of a sales promotion.

It may be hard to get more impartial information because I think a lot of this information may be handled as trade secrets (speculation) and you're not necessarily going to find it even in a patent application.


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb] #107042
11/22/10 05:56 PM
11/22/10 05:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
It'll be very interesting to see what you find out!


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: MaxaLisa] #108730
11/27/10 06:33 AM
11/27/10 06:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
I remember seeing a dog on the boards test positive to the fungus Saccharomyces, and recalling that it is often found in probiotics, particularly when fighting the nasty infection Clostridium difficile - it is often used to fight antibiotic-associated diarrhea. Turns out that my Max tested positive for this allergy too.

I wanted to be sure to add this to this thread:

Patients are recommended to stop the intake of this medicine and to immediately contact their health care provider if they experience the following side effects: breathing difficulty, tightness in the throat, tightness in the chest, chest pain, wheezing and skin hives, rash, itching and swollen skin. Patients who experience these side effects might be allergic to Saccharomyces Boulardii. From here: https://www.pharmacyescrow.com/s34133-s-SACCHAROMYCES-BOULARDII.aspx

As a further side note, Max also tested positive for allergies to milk, carrot, and potato. I would say that 96% of the probiotics I looked at in the store today contained at least 1 of those ingredients. Who knew potato starch is often found in probiotics? So for the very sensitive dog, it may take a couple of different tries at finding the right probiotic.

Last edited by MaxaLisa; 11/27/10 06:49 AM.

MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: MaxaLisa] #109914
11/30/10 07:00 PM
11/30/10 07:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
I talked with my formulator friend this morning and yes, the enteric coating process is done at fairly high temperatures. The tablet needs to be "warm" for the coating to stick and the object is to spray the coating on quickly and "flash" off the solvent. If the solvent is water, then the tablet is warmed to around 30-40°C before spraying the coating on. The coating would be at a higher temperature than the tablet.

There are other processes where something like ethanol might be used as the solvent (more expensive process because of the cost of the ethanol). In these cases, the tablet would not have to be as warm as when using water as the solvent, nor would the coating be at as high a temperature. We didn't get in to specifics about the tablet temperature in this case.

Long and short - a good formulator would choose a coating process appropriate for the tablet characteristics. If there is a known thermal stability issue, they would opt for the more expensive process to keep the temperatures down.

I know this doesn't answer the specific questions about the enteric coating's useful in the probiotic. But it was interesting to shed a little more light onto the process itself and the fact that not all of the enteric coating techniques are necessarily done at high temeprature.

I think that arguments against the use of the coating maybe valid, but when in the context of marketing text you have to understand that they might be only telling a part of the story to build a better case for their product. It's not a lie, but it may not be the whole truth.

Last edited by Woodreb; 11/30/10 07:04 PM. Reason: Added another thought

Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: Woodreb] #110032
12/01/10 01:05 AM
12/01/10 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
This is cool information, thank you smile

Interesting that there are different was to process an enteric coating. I can see where this might get lost in advertising, or also people just not understanding.

This board has people that just know the coolest stuff smile


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: MaxaLisa] #110069
12/01/10 01:59 AM
12/01/10 01:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Woodreb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,478
New Milford, CT
Or at least have friends they can ask. laugh

I'm an analytical chemist, but I've always had some interest in how things that are done by hand on a small scale are "re-invented" to go to mass production. So it's neat to learn about some of these things myself.


Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart
Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: Woodreb] #110079
12/01/10 02:17 AM
12/01/10 02:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator
MaxaLisa  Offline

Global Moderator
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 19,513
Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Woodreb
Or at least have friends they can ask. laugh


That always helps too!!

Yes, it is nice to see the process "all the way through", so to speak.


MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Monthly Photo Contest Winner
Newest Topics
Looking for an answer, pos. food issue?
by middleofnowhere. 09/20/18 02:52 AM
Happy Birthday Z!
by Zisso. 09/16/18 02:50 PM
The day my dog tried to kill me
by Sylv. 09/14/18 08:20 PM
Harness
by Todd. 09/12/18 08:48 PM
But Bennie wasn't broken!
by PositiveDog. 09/07/18 10:43 PM
Flea & Tick preventative
by Shilohsmom. 09/07/18 04:08 AM
I'm Back
by Chey & The Herd. 09/04/18 08:07 PM
September 2018 Photo Contest Entries
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 09/04/18 01:53 PM
Comments for September 2018 Contest
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 09/04/18 01:50 PM
My remaining living room furniture
by Shilohsmom. 09/04/18 03:48 AM
Help Support the Forum
New Topics - Other Animals & Chat
East coast friends, please keep us posted
by PositiveDog. 09/13/18 08:27 PM
Kathy (Kayos Mod) could use us
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 09/04/18 01:34 PM
Happy Labor Day weekend
by Shilohsmom. 09/01/18 01:41 AM
Summer Produce/Winter YUM
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 08/30/18 04:46 PM
Punctuation Experts
by Wisc.Tiger_Val. 08/25/18 07:39 PM
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 80 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
achilleas, Ruger0sasha, NurseBishop, Roguehk, Sydney
2921 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums100
Topics20,530
Posts326,944
Members2,921
Most Online209
Jul 31st, 2018
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1