This is my first thread, and it's going to be an essay so please bear with me!

Before we go on, I do want to say I am talking with my breeder AND my trainer about the issues I'm facing. But as a first time dog owner and someone who didn't grow up with dogs, I don't know what the norm is and what to expect, so a third, fourth, fifth, and even sixth opinion is desperately needed and warmly welcomed.

Background:

Amaretto is almost 6 months old. I've had her for 2 months now and we are about to finish our first puppy class together. I am her sole caregiver. My primary goal in her training and care is family companion. In seeking solutions, I am not worried about squishing any kind of drive other than her desire to be with me and her desire to learn.

Three days ago I thought I made a breakthrough with Amaretto. She just STOPPED biting my legs on walks. I have no idea which one of the many desperate things I do worked. We had a glorious 2 days where I was able to take her on long walks downtown and around the university campus to see people, horses, and new exciting surfaces. I was reluctant to go too far prior to this point because she would often get EXTREMELY bitey on my walks and chomp on my legs as we cross the street, endangering both of us. I know it was a breakthrough because sometimes during these 2 days, she would look at my feet, and CHOOSE to look away. Sometimes it'll take her a bit longer to look away, and I'd stomp them to remind her and she would look away. Alas, my two days of happiness were short-lived. The leg biting is back in full swing and harder than ever before.

I don't know WHY she does it, or why my communication to her isn't working. In theory, she and I have a good relationship together because I'm literally her only family during the school year. In theory, she should want to not cause me pain, frustration, and sadness...but I don't think theory is working well for me. Some opinions I have heard are:

This is no longer acceptable as she is past the age of learning bite inhibition. She is inhibited because if she really wanted, she could chomp through my leg.

Putting her mouth on me is an equalizer. I need to do more to establish clear rules and demonstrate fair and consistent leadership around her.

This should and CAN be corrected.

Usually, the events go like this:

She spots my shoes, makes a dive for it.

OR, I take something out from her mouth forcefully, like a wad of wet tissue or an old pizza crust she picked up on the street. She'll make a rumble and frustrated little growl, and go for my shoes.

At this point, I usually tug on the leash and flat collar and tell her OFF. Sometimes the tug moves her head higher than my foot, and she'll snap at my legs. At this point, I'll be hurting so I try to keep her away from my limbs by holding her collar or leash far away from me, dangling her off the ground slightly. Please judge me lightly on this. I am human, and sometimes her bites bring tears to my eyes so my reflex action is to stop the pain . Then she proceeds to want to jump and bite at my arms, coat, or hand holding leash.

Sometimes I have treats, and I ask her for a sit and do a bit of obedience with her. SOMETIMES this works and it takes her off the fixation of biting me. On walks, I carry her squeeker snake and shove it in her mouth when she gets bitey to facilitate safe street crossing. But I've been doing that for 3 weeks already, and she doesn't seem to get the idea that I prefer her biting snake to biting me.

I've also tried bitter apple, which only works when it's still freshly sprayed and wet. I've tried luring away with toys...no-go. I've tried time-outs in a crate, but she comes out and resumes. I've tried leaving her tied to something when she bites and we're outside and walking away, but she also resumes when I return.

Once she did this when we were working on the gentle leader, I used the gentle leader to try to redirect her focus to my eyes instead of fixating on biting me, and after a few tries, she got more frustrated and bit my legs.

Questions

How can I communicate to her that leg-biting, and the subsequent body biting and snapping is FORBIDDEN?

Is this still puppy behavior? Is this something else?

What kind of training methods do you suggest? I know the idea from the list I posted, distracting with obedience is the BEST one. But stupid me sometimes forgets the treats. In absence of the treats, WHAT else can I try?

My trainer is going to teach me to use a choke collar next Monday to see if it can help with this behavior. Do you think this is a good idea?

Many thanks for plowing through this monster of a post. Virtual cookies and good karma for sympathy, suggestions, and and feedback.

I am really tired but I will just say that it sounds like a really fun game for A. And all of the things you are doing to try to stop her are part of the game. So, you need to create a new game that trumps this leg biting, attention-getting game.

My solution to behaviors like this is to train your dog that carrying a toy is a very important and very fun and self-rewarding job. This is why you will see that every picture of Rafi (when he is awake and moving) includes a ball in his mouth. Rafi is a super drivey guy and without that ball he has a tendency to get into a little trouble but with it he's golden.

It also sounds like A sees you as her playmate. I don't believe in that alpha crap but I do believe in clear and confident leadership. Do you practice NILIF with A? If not, I would start there and build that into every single aspect of your day. Make it super fun but make sure she knows she has to work to get things, no matter how small the thing is.

I imagine that it will take a little while for things to shift in A's brain but once you earn her respect and trust as a leader I would bet you will begin to see a very different puppy.

Finally, on a very basic note: it sounds like she needs a lot more mental and physical exercise.

Thank you for reading my beast of a post and giving me advice.

I do practice NILF in that she must do behavior for food, sits and waits to go out the door, and such. I will give it a better read.

I am trying my best with the mental and physical exercise. Right now she's getting a minimum of a 1 hour walk morning and evening with the evening one usually being closer to 2 hours. During the walks, there's always a leashed walk through neighbourhoods and busy streets, and an off-leash component in a fenced tennis court, soccer field, or park. We reinforce the basics she's learned using structured off-leash play during the evening. I try to keep a log of it every day, and hope it is enough. If you want to take a look and maybe offer some suggestions, I have the details for the last few days posted on my blog for her.

She eats her food from a treat ball and a Nina Ottoson toy, or she eats it scattered in a room.

I take her to a busy place during the walk, whether it be a park with a dog park (so we can stand outside and do LAT), the university campus, downtown, or local park with children.

She does puppy classes once a week. She sees new sights, sounds, and surfaces every day.

I will incorporate NILF more thoroughly into my routine. I don't want to be her playmate. I don't need to be her alpha, but I do want her to look at me if she ever questions the decision she should make.

I would second Ruth on this. I think she sees you as a great playmate. NILIF is a life long endeavor with many dogs and it may be that she is one of them. You have a high drive dog that will need very clear guidelines.

It sounds like she is getting enough exercise but have you thought about brain games? I know she is intended to be a family companion but maybe try tracking with her. Tracking will use her natural abilities and really wear her out mentally. It is not hard, you need no special equipment aside from a sock or glove or something for her to find. You can use a plain old collar and leash, don't even need a harness. It should be fun for her.

I think grabbing her collar, tugging on the leash and collar are just ramping her up and exciting her with opposition reflex. I think the toy in mouth is a great option and it may be that she needs more time to learn this. It may take another month or two to learn this. Habits and behaviors that have been on going for a long time take a longer time to undo.

At 6 months she should have her adult teeth, puppy privilege days are over. If you feel like you have exhausted all your options on this it may be time for a good old fashioned correction. I would recommend a prong instead of a choke. As soon as she goes for your legs or aother appendage, a firm and explosive NO! followed by a sharp correction on the prong may be all it takes. Not my favorite method but if all else fails you have to do what you have to do.

FWIW I found that most of my dogs that did this quit on their own at about 7 to 8 months and all I did was turn into a tree and not move anything. If the toy (us) does not move the game gets boring. I would then scatter kibble on the ground to get the dog's brain off my legs. Then we were able to move forward.

What does the breeder say?

I would recommend a prong instead of a choke. i second that. i dont have time as i am late fro training already. when you had your 2 good days did you through a party when she choose not to bite you?? i think it is key that you reward the heck out of her when she does that. i think you need to always always always need to have treats on you. get a traet bag and always strap it on. i think the biteing you has become habit (and fun). i hope that your trainer cna show you how you can play with your dog is such a way that she will want to engage you in play not your feet and legs. and i know this is hard, you have to make sure you are consistant with this....try to not get mad as i think this often "rewards" the dog, as they are getting you to react and in her mind play....

Turning into a tree was the first thing I tried. I've been wearing 2 layers of pants tucked into snow boots/rain boots to turn into a tree and deter her.

I am meeting with my current trainer next Monday so she can show me how to use a choke chain for correction. Maybe I will also ask to be taught how to properly fit a prong at that time.

My breeder has been really fantastic about this. When I first told her about the problems, she gave me advice over the phone. Then when it seemed like I was out of my depth in handling, she recommended a trusted trainer in my province. Unfortunately, the trainer is 1 hour away from Toronto, so I haven't had the chance to see him yet as I'm in school in Kingston. When I told her about the latest episode, she offered again to take the puppy back, correct her behavior, or send me another puppy that, as you guys both say, perhaps has lower drive. I don't think it's come to that point yet.

Can you mayhaps go into more detail about teaching her how to track? I am a complete novice to dog ownership and can't even teach "find it" or "fetch" completely.

Thank you for your response!

You are very right on the throwing a party. I was deluded into thinking that she "got it" and didn't continue to reinforce. I started reinforcing today when she looked away and didn't bite.

Today asking for an alternate behavior worked, and I rewarded that handsomely.

A month ago, when the problem first surfaced and before she started having a bloody mouth every day from teething, I would pull out the tug whenever she seemed crazy, wait for her to sit and give eye-contact and then engage her. That seemed to work as well. We haven't been tugging since she started teething. I will ask for more assistance on how to better play with her.

This is great advice. Thank you so much guys.

If you know of trainers in Kingston or Toronto that you would recommend I speak to, please do not hesitate to throw them my way either through PM or directly in your post.

I would throw out the choke (why do people still recommend these?????) and I would not go to a prong. A prong (and yes, everyone, I have used them many times) can get a dog more amped up or can hurt the dog if used incorrectly. And both of those options (prong and choke) can hurt your relationship and turn the training in a different direction.

The redirection to a toy will work. It is just going to take some patience. WHen I adopted Rafi he would get so excited (and he was 1.5 years old) he would jump straight into the air and snap in my face. He would grab the leash and drag me all over the place. He would jump up and down in the air and bark and lunge when he saw other dogs. It took 3 weeks of counter-conditioning, LAT and redirection to a toy to get him stop ALL of those behaviors. I never yanked on his collar or yelled at him.

I am off to work right now but will write more later.

Yes a prong can escalate the behavior and amp some dogs up. I do not think a well timed and fair correction will errode a relationship. Constant nagging corrections will. I would rather one good prong correction over nagging on a flat collar or even choke chain.

That said, I would exhaust all other options before trying the prong. If an alternative behavior works go for it, keeping in mind that for any behavor to become habit it will take more than a few days, probably a good month or better.

I always try the path of fewest correctiosn but sometimes they are a neceassry part of life.

Is the biting mostly happening on walks? My first thought when I read about this happening in places like downtown and on campus, and especially crossing busy streets, is that it could be stress related. Maybe these places are too overwhelming for her right now? Many years ago I had a Gordon Setter that couldn't handle a lot of stressful situations and would turn and bite me when he encountered them. How is she when you walk in quiet places, like hiking trials, the woods, etc. Does she do the same?

Sandy,

I don't think it's stress. Alot of times she does it right outside my apartment as we go for a potty break. I think she really does think of it as a game, and think of me as a playmate that she can step on.

If she seesm to do it in certain areas or at certain times asking for the alternative behavior to pre-empt her may also work. Does she exhibit other behavior just before she grabs? Whines, circles, anything that you can point to as a predictor that she is getting ready to grab. If you can single that out (if she does exhibit another behavior first that you can see consistently) you can ask for the alternative behavior at that point. That will stop her before she grabs you.

You may even consider keeping a small diary of this for a few weeks so you can put a pattern to it and pre-empt the pattern.

It is always better to find other ways to fix an issue other than a strong correction for it. Corrections are enticing to people I think because it may make us feel we are really addressing the issue and "doing something" to stop it. We feel more in control. But if you can stop it with other management options I think it is better. So the 'good correction' is still out there as an alibi but maybe not today!

These are just my thoughts, take them all with a grain of salt...

I would not do leash walks with her right now, not until you get this nipped in the bud. For one the leash walk probably isn't enough exercise and might be *over* stimulating mentally. I have this problem with Pan. He's not a biter or anything like that but he gets so excited on leash walks he starts "leaking" (whining and screaming). It's like he's waiting for something REALLY special to happen and doesn't get that walking around the block is really it, that's all we're doing, lol. It's not enough physically to wear him out so they're really pointless, especially in both our cases if the bad habits just continue or escalate.

Regarding prongs/corrections, etc.... I agree with Kathy that your dog no longer gets a puppy license and if she's as drivey and resilient as you say it may be time for some well placed corrections. Shouldn't really matter if it's with a prong or not. The important thing is not to nag and make sure you get her attention. I hear all the time that prongs are bad b/c they amp up a dog and this can be true but only if you're using the collar wrong, like nagging the dog or applying constant pressure. I've yet to meet a GSD, even 95lb over-drive working GSD in protection that is fully immune to a fair and appropriately timed collar correction. My concern would actually be that if she has no concept of discipline and up until now has treated you like a playmate rather than a leader, I wouldn't want her to come back at you when you make it clear she's misbehaving, but I suppose the longer this goes on the more likely this becomes.

The reason I am not recommending a prong or a correction is because this is a puppy and those come from a place of frustration. I am dealing with this myself now with one of my kittens. The frustration didn't lead anywhere and the behavior was still there. It was only when I started teaching incompatible behaviors and redirection (yep, with the kitten) that things started getting better.

Just bear with me for a moment here:

I agree that a well timed and properly executed correction with a prong can get results. I've used this method many times. It's quick and it's easy. But it requires willingly physically punishing your dog (and many times literally making your dog yelp) and that creates a certain feeling inside you. That feeling can shift your relationship with your dog into a power thing. The idea with a prong or choke or any kind of physical correction is to get the dog to submit to your will.

As much as I would like to be, I am not a purely positive trainer. However, this is more about my frame of mind in any given moment than anything else. And I think that with a puppy--and with your very first dog--it can make a big difference if you can work on shifting your thinking and focusing on working with the dog rather than working against the dog. I know that often when one of my animals has a problem behavior that is driving me crazy I usually need to step back and reassess and shift my mindset so that it becomes a positive challenge and not an annoying problem.

I will definitely keep this journaling this. I think her signal is she looks at my legs. But sometimes she walks behind me, and I can only catch it when she's making the dash.

My thoughts on alternate behaviour is I WANT to do it, and it's what I've been trying to make work for the past month. I'm worried she continues to view me as a playmate even after this behavior subsides.

Lies, you make a very good point about coming back to me. I remember earlier when I tried to redirect her attention with a gentle leader while she is biting my feet, she got very frustrated and went for my legs with a small frustration growl. Do you think working with a trainer is enough to mitigate this?

I can't stop on-leash walks because I have to TAKE her to places that I can use to off-leash exercise. I live in an apartment.

I will keep doing the replacement behavior until I can see a trainer for help. I don't use either yet because I don't know how to use a choke or a prong properly anyway.

Something to consider...

It is hard to tell with out actually seeing her where this is stemming from, but it sounds to me like she is bored, a little bossy, and wants to play. If this is the case, I wonder if she just likes your reaction? If she makes you squeel, gets a rise out of you, creates frustration in you, gets attention... it can be rewarding to continue to bite. I wonder what would happen if you just calmly grabbed her flat collar and sit her little butt down with no reaction whatsoever. Then just calmly repeat this until she settles then continue the walk with a reaction she likes. Talking to her, stroking her back, giving her attention...whatever it is that she really likes. If she bits again, all the good stuff shuts off and repeat the boring sit. The walk would take forever, but maybe she would learn that biting is just boring and it is more fun to walk.

If she is doing this out of frustration and is trying to "correct" you for taking stuff away, I second introducing the prong. I was against starting the prong on Grizz so young, but it made night and day difference to give him a far and understandable correction. He is just not a dog that cares one bit about a verbal correction or withhold of reward correction. His naughty walking behaviors disappeared instantly with a couple good corrections.

Ruthie,

I think you are right, but heck, what do I know. Sometimes I think her tail is wagging when she is fighting with me. I am usually silent throughout the whole struggle between the 2 of us.

When I grab her flat collar, she continues to struggle for a long time and flips around to try to get my hands, my hem, and my sleeves. She will momentarily relax, and I will let go, but she will bounce right back into action.

So until I can get a trainer to show me how to use corrections, I'm thinking of using replacement behavior. Fail this, should I still use a sharp "NO" followed by collar hold?

Well I think it depends on the trainer. I think too many trainers try to over analyze every little thing and avoid big bad evil corrections...at what expense? I mean if the dog is sound in the head, otherwise has a good relationship with you, there's NO reason why you as the owner and leader cannot just say "NO!" either verbally or physically or both and get the point across. It shouldn't take weeks or months of trying to "redirect" or do this or that. JMHO. I'm someone that has very little patience or tolerance for my own dog treating me like their personal chew toy. As long as the dog is getting exercise, mental stimulation, and training with me there's no reason I should not be able to set some ground rules and implement some discipline so that we can avoid all this annoying (and sometimes downright dangerous behavior) and have FUN together! I don't believe I have to struggle for weeks or attempt to reason with my dogs. I say no that means no, not doing that, not here not now.

Update:

THANK MY LITTLE STARS! Was able to get 10 minutes in with trainer on Thursday to be taught collar corrections.

Lies, I completely agree with you on this point. She is a sound puppy, I work my butt off to provide for her. After trying positive and passive methods, I don't think I am asking for a lot when I want to avoid leg biting.

Right. She's not being "bad" she just needs to be taught more clearly what behaviors are appropriate when. I think for some dogs it's far easier and more clear to intervene with YOU in control rather than all the gimmicks attempting to entice HER to change HER mind. Um, no. Growling at you, chewing on your feet, and biting your legs is not OK. Some behaviors just need to be interrupted rather than making choices for the dog. It might be harmless for a little while but she's only going to get stronger and bite harder which is more uncomfortable and unsafe for you. The corrections don't have to be punitive, they need to be clear enough and strong enough to stop the behavior and make it clear you are in charge, and *then* present an alternative like tugging on a tug toy or chasing a ball instead. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or saying you're doing anything wrong, I'm just coming at this as someone who has a good friend with a dog that behaved like this for far, far too long and is still dealing with the consequences.

Out of curiosity does she ever do this at home when you are just walking around?

She doesn't bite my legs at home but she sometimes bites my shoes. Mouhing hands is her behaviour at home.

In the puppy classes I typically take (which are way too repetitious for me but I still like them) we use the Volhard stuff and walk around heeling or loose leash walking with a lot of food and that of course is enjoyed by dogs who like food (not all of mine did!). But it kind of teaches them place and behaviors and obviously when they might bite a leg, yeah, they don't get the food.

But one of the cool things was if you have a little dog they give you a long handled spoon and a jar of peanut butter or crock cheese and that is how you lure them. So I watched and was like...hey...yeah, this is great for the little dogs so the owners don't break their backs, but what if I tried this with my bigger dogs and they have loved it as well.

I have a few real "herdy" dogs - a couple of BC mixes (just the other day the one who is like 9 yo! grabbed my leg when we were playing because she thought I had told her it was on, it's go time, and she was right, I had), and a real prey driven maybe Tervy-Chow mix and so have to be aware that this is possible when moving. But unless I invite it when we play, they don't do it while walking. Yay me, right - ha! But what I am thinking is if you did that spoon thing, in the house, a few steps at a time, you could go back to showing her what is expected. I am not embarrassed to walk around the outside world with a young dog or new foster, my spoon and a jar of peanut butter either.

I use a sharp, quick verbal pop too, an EH! noise but, thinking back, I don't do it when they are grabbing my leg, but when they dip. So before they do it.

I like to have fun. I like to think, and play, and try things and give myself a little challenge - you can teach this without doing this, or by doing this.

And I don't need to have a spoon and PB to walk my dogs now either. Unless I'm hungry.

What's cool is with your first dog, you sometimes don't know what you can't do, so you end up doing better and more than people who have bad training habits already!

Yep, me too(the bold area mainly)! I would love to use purely positive methods but this sometimes does not work with some very high drive dogs. I agree with 99% of what Ruth says too, and as previously posted would try to use other methods first.

I don't know how to double quote but I also agree with Lies' last post. There is no reason why I should put up with this from my dog and if you have tried everything else with out result IMHO the correction is well justified. I think a prong is probably a better choice that a choke but that is debatable by many and if you and your trainer feel the choke is better and you use it correctly than that is waht to use. I have found my dogds HATE the head halter type collars. It amps them more than a prong.

I am not into playing alpha or pack leader or roll the dog etc, however, I have opposable thumbs, I pay the mortgage and the food bill therefore, I get to call 99% of the shots. Biting me is not acceptable. Granted Amareto is not quite 6 months old but if has all of her adult teeth she is in firm FAIR correctable territory. An adult dog would not tolerate this at her age and would firmly correct her. No we are not dogs and cannot correct like another dog would but we can issue a non emotional, immediate correction that will inform her that she needs to alter her behavior.

Having a high drive GSD for a first dog is tough, but you are working hard on persevering and I think you will succeed! I am on GSD number 5 and I am still have days I want to choke my high drive boy.

I guess my question is does she know the behavior being asked for? So is she still in the teaching and learning phase - she's basically 2 months old to her owner...has the walk in heel position, or loose leash been shaped, marked, and rewarded clearly, so that the dog is informed of what is wanted?

I can't tell without seeing, so that's why you hear my dump truck beep-beep-beeping to back up before going forward.

For me the issue is not the leash walking but chewing on the owner, growling at the owner when the owner tries to get her to stop, that sort of stuff. I'm not going to "ask" my dogs not to do these things, I'm just not going to allow it (prevent/manage somehow) or interrupt them with a correction. The leash walking should definitely be shaped, marked, rewarded, etc but that can't happen with the dog's teeth buried in the achilles. The corrections should be fair and not emotional. IMO the longer it is allowed to escalate the more emotion and frustration comes into play which is not appropriate either.

One day I will get around to taking video of Rafi running with me. It looks like this: I run, he runs in circles around me jumping up and down, growling and shaking his ball. He knows various commands so sometimes he goes under, around, etc. He never bites me, he never trips me, he never even bumps me. If I stop running he stops bouncing. I think Jean has seen him do this with her foster Dylan and with me?

Rafi is a NUT. He is super drivey so it's all about channeling that wonderful instinct into something that's fun for him and also fun for me. There's no question in his mind that I am the leader and he knows I won't play the games by his rules.

Maybe this dog is not the best match for a first time owner? I don't know but I'm not giving up my stand on teaching an incompatible behavior to fix the problem behavior. We almost always inadvertently encourage these behaviors so it is up to us to figure out how to train new behaviors. That's not about "gimmicks," it's about clarity and consistency and learning and building clear communication with your dog.

Then a leash pop isn't the cure either. Or it's a short-term solution for a long-term problem - that probably starts with the relationship. That interaction has gone off, somehow, and is maybe not something that I can imagine trying to fix - with ANY of these suggestions - perhaps, via the Internet.

A whole deal needs to be put in place, I would guess.

Marshies - not a bad thing - just, out of whack. It happens when you have a smart dog. They can get ahead of you pretty quickly.

Someone in real life who can watch, can help regain some order there, and it won't be bad at all. Things like NILIF and tethering her to you will help. I still believe starting at the beginning is a good place to start. Takes longer to go backwards then forwards, but in the long run, it can help.

We do the start overs all the time with fosters, so I guess that's why we might be so blase about it! And sometimes even have to start over starting over when we realize that the dog that first walked in the door is not the dog we have anymore!

For the tracking - you can even just hide food in the apartment for her to find. It's not tracking, but for now, fun!

I am going to go out on a limb and give a direct piece of advice though - that collar grab - don't do that. It's not working. I know that seems so obvious, but I have done things over and over and not gotten a good response and still do it...until someone says yeah, don't do that one. It's like the old fashioned harnesses that would kick in that opposition reflex and makes the dog want to pull MORE. She's like a little bucking bronco with that right?

You have great support and are working hard. It sounds like you and she are in a win-win situation with that, so I hope you have wonderful successes soon (and they can be little things!).

ETA - I have seen Ruth with Rafi and he is like a Tigger, bouncy bouncy bounce, but ready to perform in a good way! I could see him driving most people mad, but Ruth seems pretty bouncy too!

I don’t think this is a case of “does your dog truly understand what you want before you correct it?” This is not a ‘sit’, a ‘stay’, a ‘come’, a ‘down’, or such. This is chewing on me, and it is not acceptable. I don’t want any teeth close to me; in fact, I don’t even want to see any teeth come close to me. And you can be darn sure we aren’t going to have a relationship until he learns to respect me and my rules.

This dog is 6 months old. He may have only been with her for 2 months, but he has learned very well in 2 months what he can do to get a rise out of her. It may be fun for him, but it’s not only not fun for her, it’s painful.

I don’t use a choke collar. When I start using a prong, I like to use a 2-foot leash. This way, when I have to give a correction, I am on top of the dog popping the leash up quickly and firmly. If either of my boys were on a 6-foot leash and not being controlled by me, the chances of me getting a quick upright pop is not good – he would be too far in front or behind or out to the side – and very likely, I would be pulling sideways, back or front rather than popping straight up. Popping up allows the collar to be in the position it’s supposed to be in. This is just my preference because my dogs are very large.

I think this is a case where he has to be taught the rules very quickly and firmly, and then she can back off to redirection if he decides to test her authority later down the road.

NILIF is fine, but I don’t think stopping a dog from chewing on you by stuffing a ball in his mouth is “nothing’s free”. He just got a ball to play with.

I agree with more of a total overhaul, ramp up the NILIF. I've never been one to tether (I need *my* personal time and space!) but definitely use crates and gates for management until a dog slowly earns their space and their freedom. If the dog is 6 months but acting like 10 weeks it should be managed like 10 weeks and not given the benefit of the doubt of 6 months, IMO. Incompatible behaviors are awesome too, use them all the time, but what happens when a dog is chewing on your leg and you say "platz" and your dog just growls at you and chews on your leg? I still think the owner has every right to immediately interrupt that behavior.

I'm not trying to be a pessimist, it's just something fresh on the mind because a good friend had a dog that did all this stuff as a young dog and everyone said it was just his high drive self. Now the dog has bitten three different people and needs serious management and control. The dog does all the formal obedience just fine, he's a titled dog with great obedience on the field and great control when he's in that "training" frame of mind but when left to his own devices he consistently makes the *wrong* choices. I don't want to see anyone else have to go through this sort of thing.

Wow guys, I am floored by the many thoughtful options and suggestions you guys have presented.

I haven't figured out how to multiple quote so I'll just address everything here.

Jean, you are RIGHT on in that our relationship has somehow gone off and needs to be revamped. I wish there was some sort of facility where I could check the 2 of us in for a week and get help.

Ruth, I am ALL for teaching an incompatible behavior. Heck, at this point, if you told me that giving my left kidney would solve the problem I'd do it. Here's the thing though. I have to catch her early to make the incompatible behavior work. If she's already made contact with me, she's usually not coming out for a sit. Sometimes I can catch it, sometimes I can't. I need a way to be able to deal with the times that I cannot do it.

Lies, the concern you voiced for your friend is EXACTLY the concern my breeder has for me. She wants me to send the dog back because she is VERY CONCERNED that this will end the wrong way. I AM VERY WORRIED ABOUT IT TOO. You are 100% on about the situation too. Training-wise she is PERFECT. This girly is a joy to train with. I LOVE LOVE teaching her stuff. She can heel, down, perch, stay, shake, high-5, touch nose, touch paw, table, tunnel, TONS of stuff. I KNOW how to train for new "tricks", but I have no idea how to teach behaviors.

I upped her exercise today and just came back from a 2 hour walk with about an hour offleash of Jolly ball play with a bit of obedience thrown in. I put on her choke chain just to give myself an extra element of control. My trainer demonstrated how to use it on Monday, I just wasn't sure if I was doing it right. I didn't want to use it unless I absolutely needed. Turns out, choke chain doesn't faze her AT ALL. If anything, she gets more ramped up, like you guys have guess at. Will the prong have the same effect?

I absolutely agree with starting over with her. I would love to hear more specifics about HOW to start over...what aspects to start over.

Thus far I've gathered I need to:

Redo NILF with her
Get with trainer to learn how and when to use a prong

How else can I communicate the change in our relationship and my changing expectations??

Thank you guys again.

To add.

I tether a lot of the times when I'm in the house. I can't keep her out of stuff and away from stuff unless I'm leashed to her.

She is crated daily from 11 - 4, and for 1 hour after our evening walk at night.

I don't use choke collars, don't think I own one. You can give a decent correction on a collar like a fursaver but it's done on the "dead" ring. Unless you're literally lifting the dog off her two front feet (which I would not recommend), the choke collar is worthless. I see their purpose more for dogs that might startle and bolt out of a regular collar (many shelters require their dog walkers to used them).

If you're not real confident with the prong, get with someone who can fit it and show you how to use it. It doesn't have to be a "professional trainer" but someone that has actually used them quite a bit and can show you how to use it but not overdo it or have it become a crutch.

I wish I were coming up your way soon but I don't think I'll be there until mid March. Kudos to you for working so hard to figure out what's going on and to figure out how to deal with it.

Eventually Melanie will come to this thread and write a mini-book for you explaining how to start over using positive reinforcement and counter conditioning but she's busy right now b/c her chow is playing the part of Sandy in Annie. Yes, I said her chow.

Jean trains dogs that no one else wants and are often chows (which means they are in for themselves) and who knows what else so she has to be really creative. Many of my dogs have been adults that someone else has messed up or that no one else wants or that I inherit through a relationship and feel compelled to train.

You need to come up with a step by step plan. I would start with looking for what triggers the behavior (look for the tiniest thing) and what things you do that make the behavior worse. Also look for things that work, even for a moment.

And I know this is a really hard thing to consider but you need to entertain a little thought that A might not be the right match for you. There are several very dedicated and experienced dog people on this board who have rehomed dogs or returned dogs to breeders because they weren't the right dog for them. In all cases those dogs have gone on to do very well (often in a working home) and the person has gone on to get the right dog for her. So, I am in no way saying you should give up but I am saying you might want to let that thought float in your mind just a bit, just in case.

Which dog training books do you own?

I would see what you can find out about this place: http://www.whenhoundsfly.com/about-us-toronto-dog-training/instructor-bios.html

Tracking.....

Start with a scent pad which is also where the dog starts a track. Stand there awhile- 30 to 60 seconds, scuff your feet if you want to and drop 10 to 15 small pieces of food. Let it sit for a few minutes and get Amareto. Take her by her collar and tell her to track or search and point to the ground, let her sniff and eat the food. Do this for a few days.

Next do the scent pad and then also take about 50 small, short steps forward and drop food in every other foot step at the end leave her favorite toy or a ball or a pile of food. Go get her and tell her to track or search and let her work the scent pad and the move forward over the foot steps to the end. Play like there is no tomorrow when she finishes the track! Do this for a few days. Help her when she needs it. Walk with her at the end of a loose leash.

Next make the track a little longer, space your steps a bit more and use less food. Again go get her tell her to track or search and let her find her toy at the end.

Over time you lengthen your stride to a normal step, let the track sit or age longer (up to 30 minutes) make the track longer and add some turns. Make the straight part of the track at least 50 normal paces before you turn so the wind does not confuse the scent for her.

When you start the turns shorten the step, add food to help her around the turn, maybe put and article (sock, glove etc) with your scent on it a little after the turn, when she finds it reward her and then ask her to keep working with a track or search command. I use surveyor flags to mark the start and turns so I know where they are during the learning phase.

If you just want to have fun no one cares if the track ages, run it fresh if you want. You might find this is a great game and she is a natural at it. Maybe you might consider tracking as a sport!

There are lots of good tracking books to read too. Check out dog wise. I think the affiliate link is at the top of the home page here. Tracking as actually my favorite thing to do with my dogs. My Kayos has her TDX which is tracking dog excellent. She excels at it and loves it.

Havoc doing a puppy track in 2007



Kayos running a track.



I use a harness but you do not need one.


Have fun it is a great way to use your dog's brain!

Tracking is a great way to work a pup(mind and body), and it is a wonderful time of bonding too. You can learn alot about your pup while tracking.

Marshies – you have received a TON of information here. Take a step back, relax, and think about what works best for you. We have given you our opinions – and yes, we can ALL bring in reinforcements to back up our particular style of training if we want to ( ) – but you, yourself, have to decide what works best for you.

If I’m not mistaken, you have a dog from German lines that title in Schutzhund. That, in itself, should put you on the alert that although you may have thought you simply got a dog ready for sports and working, you also got the hard drive, real deal. Not exactly a couch potato or even a ramped up one. Also, trust your breeder – if she feels you should give the dog back, think very seriously about it. She knows her dogs and what they need and are capable of.

This is nothing against you – you are obviously doing everything in your power to make this work and you are to be commended. Just don’t be blind to the fact that it may not be the right fit for either of you.

Kathy,

Thank you for the detailed instructions on tracking. I will definitely try to incorporate it somehow.

Ruth,

I've looked at How Hounds Fly for when I move back to Toronto! In terms of dog books, I own Purely Positive Training by Sheila Booth (?), have skimmed Before and After You get your PUppy Ian Dunbar, watched Leerburg's 8 weeks to 8 months, and own this other clicker training book that is really straight froward (pictures and instructions).

When I first got her, I felt overwhelmed and cried alot. At that point, I really contemplated sending her back, and was given numerous offers to do so. Amaretto did one thing REALLY REALLY well for me and that is to teach me that I like my dogs as adults, not as puppies. AND, she also taught me that at this point in my life, I don't really want a pet that demands as much time and attention as she does. But I have her already, and I will work my 100% to make our relationship work. If I do send her back, I don't want another puppy, I would only take another older dog with some foundation to complement my complete lack of handling skills. I would also ask for this dog YEARS down the road...so I dunno. I have committed to her, but don't want to commit to another dog. Do I make sense??

Jan, you are 100% right about her drive and her ability to work. I am prepared to meet her energy demands. I have no problems walking/playing with her outdoors for 3+ hours a day and actually really enjoy that time together when she is well-behaved. I am just feeling inadequate in dealing with her behavioral training, which is something all the internet reading and theoretical learning didn't prepare me for. I want to give this some more effort, work with another trainer maybe during reading week.

Marshies, tough it out...it will be so worth it in a few months after teething is finished and you see your puppy maturing some. Try to stay with group classes or private lessons to help your motivation. Don't over analyze and enjoy this stage of puppyhood. It doesn't last long enough. Take pics, lots of pics so you can look back at your baby in all her glory!
If you can find a great ball or tug that she loves to carry, it will help...they are pacifiers,for sure. The drive she cannot get out will go into the ball when you are on walks. Re-read the puppy chapters of Sheila's book...there is great info in it.

I think in the long run you will be very happy!!!

Dogs are work. GSD's may be more work than some but they are well worth it! Just think you might reconsider a dog sport with her - SchH, agility, tracking or whatever!

Yes. I do try to enjoy her whenever I can. She is such a cutey when she is all tired out. When she looks at me I just melt a little on the inside. Even though high "drivey" parts are whats causing the problems for us, I do really enjoy her wanting to go after that toy I have, and wanting to keep going with me on walks. Looking less like an abuse victim while I enjoy our time together is a plus as well, but I guess I can work on that slowly.

Btw, if you guys wanted to see more pictures and more details of the heinous errors I commit in raising her, come see her blog [url=puppertails.blogspot.com]Amaretto's blog.[/url]

We're one class away from finishing puppy classes, and she's starting a beginner's agility class after that. I think she'll love it too. I taught her to LOVE going down slides at the park, and she really does well with learning to interact with different surfaces.

Ok I only got to the top of page 4 & I cannot go on any longer.

1. To redirect you do not "stuff" the toy in the dog's mouth. You interest the dog in the toy as the most exciting, most interesting thing on earth. You pay attention to it.

2. To institute NILIF you ignore the dog for several days. You feed it. You water it. You potty it. You kennel or crate it. You make no eye contact. You avoid speaking to it. It is going to be harder living in an apartment but if you can do it, it works wonders. THEN you go on the earn to learn program where the dog gives you a requested behavior to get anything.

3. If you go with #2, when you resume your "new normal" you will have a terrific toy (to which you yourself will express great interest) & you will, when the rotten behavior begins, stop what you are doing so that Big Shot Puppy gets no reward. It may take you quite a while to get outside. You might not do anything but go to the potty area for a few days and it might take you quite a while to get there. In order to ignore this crappy behavior you may want some soccer or hockey shin guards or something like a carhart insulated overall. [Not quite a bite suit but fairly protective.]

So yeah there is refinement number 78 on training tips for the buttheaded puppy!
[And you can tell him I said so.]

I wish you could make it to one of our training days... I would sit with you and spend as much time needed going over some of the suggestions here and figuring out what works for Amaretto and such.

Is there any way you could make it to KW?

I actually have reading week coming up the week after the next, and will be able to go home to a HOUSE with a YARD. YAY! I imagine NILF will be much easier to implement at home, when the wailing will bother no one but my immediate family.

I read the same NILF from the suggested websites page, and wasn't sure if the isolation applied to pups as well.

Thank you so much for the advice.

YES PLEASE! Elisabeth, I have reading week from 1th to 25th. Let's arrange something over Facebook.

Sounds good. I would love to just go for a walk with you and A and maybe we can work on some things that your trainer recommended as well as few things I have learned from Stark and CRAZY DRIVY Zefra. Definitely have to come out to the club as well and work with everyone too... will be fun and A will be exhausted after.

Also, what about getting a flirt pole for A to play with? Great exercise and also you can teach control work with it as well as work on biting appropriate things?

I use a horse whip but you can make one out of a leash/rope with some fluffy toy or a piece of leather/material too.

I saw you mention in another thread that you knew some good trainers in the Gta. Doyou mind sending me their information.

Sure thing.

In KW:

Delightful dogs - pet obedience trainer (trains therapy dogs, CGN evaluator, races huskies for sled work)

Around our area -

***HIGHLY recommend Jim at Spirit Ridge.***

http://www.spiritridge.net/Services%20Base%20Page.htm

I know him personally and he is a GREAT KNOWLEDGEABLE trainer. He raises and trains and competes with Mals but is VERY good with GSD's as well. His wife does agility and they clean up at trials all over the place - also does herding.

There are a few more I will send you near your area as well. You should also check out Capital City SchH club and/or TO Schutzhund Club - great teams who work with owners and are very understanding of all dog/owner relationships and goals.

I don't have any great words of wisdom, I just wanted to say that this thread is a perfect example of why I this board!!!!!!!

Puppies are hard, I have a little Sable Tornado here myself, but as someone said, it's over before we know it.

I whole-heartedly agree.

Marshies, this sounds a lot like what I had to deal with in raising Trent. He was my first puppy, my first German Shepherd Dog... my first dog, actually. I expected it to be a lot of work, yes, but I also thought that the relationship we'd immediately build would make everything worth it and every day a great one to spend with my puppy. In reality, it wasn't the case at all.

I was more than willing to put in the work, but didn't see the blood and tears coming (literally!). Our relationship wasn't great, either. He was independent, not at all inclined to care about what I thought and what I wanted, only interested in doing his own thing. EXTREMELY mouthy, he didn't learn bite inhibition until he was 6-8 months old, and I tried everything as well. The rest of my family did not like taking walks with me and Trent because he would attack my ankles and hands the entire time, and it hurt.

Anything else we did only amped him up, and yes, we did begin using the prong collar at his breeder and trainer's recommendation. I don't believe the prong did any harm, but it didn't help the biting, either. Only good it did was give me more of an advantage in physically restraining him when his prey drive began developing... and frankly I feel that was a mistake. Never say never, but I don't see myself ever implementing a correctional collar into training a young puppy ever again, because I did not accomplish anything I could not have without the tool.

I wish I could offer you a quick and completely effective solution, but unfortunately all I have is moral support and reassurance. I very seriously thought about sending him back multiple times, I didn't think I could raise him right. He did great in obedience class, always caught on to new commands quickly, and was very food driven. Loved to learn new things and picked up on cues that I didn't even have to teach him. In that sense he was perfect, but in other ways, he was a terror. I got him at 8 weeks old and still failed to always end the day thinking "gee, I'm so glad I did this" because I felt so disappointed in myself.

Since he is, like A, just a companion/pet, somewhere along the road I think I stopped focusing on little tricks and more on behavior and mindset. If he continuously insisted on acting up, I was not at all opposed to crating him or gating him off. There were, and still are, many things that are not tolerated by me and I make that exceptionally clear. There are boundaries and expectations, and as Trent is a pushy, assertive, strong willed dog, those boundaries were reinforced as needed, although now at home, I have not corrected him for inappropriate behavior since who knows when. Outside the house our only problems are same sex reactivity issues, but that's another issue, one that never came up with he was A's age. He is, of course, still very much his own dog but he was taught from a young age what is and is not acceptable.

I think somewhere around 8 months and onwards (after half a year with me) he really began settling down. He still tries to get his way with other members of the family when they try to handle him, but with me he is an angel. I love this dog so much, I am overwhelmed by a sickening feeling every time I think I almost gave him back. He is a better dog than I ever thought I'd get and I am always telling everyone how great he is.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to think a dog isn't for you (and it could likely be true), or that you'll regret it forever if you send A back to Robin. Just want you to know that I understand how you feel and went through the same ordeal. In my case, it was worth it ten times over, and I would relive 10 of Trent's puppyhoods if it meant I would still end up with an adult like him.

That was a really good post Rei.

I think again always try the positive method and the alternative behavior if you can. However, sometimes using a fair correction gives you the interuption or space you need to get to the point you can use the cued alternative behavior.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me, I am not explaining it well and do not have the time to try right not but quickly - but I would use the correction more as an interrupter if the bahavior (grabbing) has already started. I would use that along with careful observation / journaling to see if you can note a predictor that you can pre-empt.

Yes, Kathy - exactly. It's no fun for anyone to constantly expect to correct, and I don't think anyone ever starts out training with anything more in mind than verbal cues or redirection. On the other hand, by the time you do get to the correction point, the behavior has already escalated beyond the "we'll try this a different way" stage or the dog is being a total butthead behaviorwise (which, sometimes, just happens). And I believe in Marshies' case, the biting sometimes comes out of the blue and you have no chance to divert - you've simply got to stop it.

I think I have read most of the posts.

First having a young independent female is a challenge. They so much want to use their brain and be a self thinker. Cheyenne was a total PIA independent pup, I could have had a steak tied around my neck and she could have cared less. So I thought I need to do something with her that she enjoys, Cheyenne's love is tracking. So we started tracking, then I would do some OB stuff with her and if she was not fighting with me all the time then we went tracking. Eventually she got a little happier at OB work and listened better in the house because she had an outlet to use her brain and not be in conflict with me.

Your female really doesn't want to be in conflict with you, you just need to find what she really enjoys and give her a place where she can use that brain of hers. I knew Cheyenne's was tracking because I could never keep her nose off the ground, I swear she is part bloodhound.

Also physically wearing the crap out of her from time to time didn't hurt either. We played two ball because she would never give up the ball she had for me to throw it. So you use two items.

Wanted to say a BIG THANK YOU for the super thoughtful posts. I want to take some time to respond to them individually over the weekend.

But first, I think I figured out what deterred her from biting me last time - stepping on her leash as close to the collar as possible. She goes into a down, and immediately stops biting behavior. I think that's why last time, whenever I stomped my foot, she was deterred. Foot lifting = coming for leash. THIS WORKS, but I don't know if I can continue using it. Is it harmful? Is it proper?? I can ask for another behavior from the down and reward that...but I don't know if it's right.

I went to fit the prong today with the trainer, and let me just say though she is a great great lady and I will continue going for regular positive classes, I have different opinions from her when it comes to fitting the prong. She has it lose at the neck, which, from what I remember of my leerburg readings, isn't how it's supposed to be. I didn't want to use it like that, so I put her back on the flat. I'm waiting for reading week so I can get another opinion.

No, the prong is not loose and does not go low around the neck. If you just want to get the idea of how to fit it, leave the flat collar on and put the prong collar on above the flat collar. You don't have to tighten it yet - or even use it - just get an idea of where it belongs. It should never slip below, or even on, the flat collar.

Just remember though - if you're not comfortable using the prong yet, don't. Read more, ask all the trainers and everyone else you know who uses one what they think of it and then make your own decision. It won't work if you're not confident using it, and it's not the end of the world or a reflection on you if you decide not to use it. Some people just don't like it. JMO.

Ditto on the prong.

Thank you to everyone's suggestions. I did end up using the prong, and she is REALLY understanding that biting is unacceptable. This really highlights how unclear I was in my previous communication.

A sharp "NO" deters her now, but I will keep the prong on the tab for the next while until she absolutely shows no more inclination to nip anymore. It took around 5 corrections over 2 days.

I am REALLY REALLY enjoying my time with her now, and feel like it's too good to be true, stolen time.

I will still seek out a more experienced GSD trainer to improve my handling skills so that I have the resources and confidence to deal with further issues that my arise in the future.

Thank you again to everyone who responded. The personal experiences you shared really gave me hope, and the suggestions you made gave me many options in my training methods and opened my eyes to many different perspectives in training that can be applied to other areas as well.

The support and sincerity of members who commented in this thread really floored me. I LOVE this forum, and can't thank you guys enough!

Isn't it great when the lightbulb goes on - for either or both of you!!! Glad to hear things are working out. And guess what - it's not stolen time - it's how you'll all be living together now that the rules are established and understood. Bet A is happy too - all she needed was some guidance and some boundaries. What a great job you've done and will continue to do!

i am glad for you!!

She is a good strong little female that was testing you and was winning. Now she better understands her role, she is not in charge.

Positive methods to teach desirable behaviors are always better than corrections to deter unwanted behavior. You cannot correct a dog or child for doing something it does not know is wrong or for making a mistake when they have no idea what the right thing is or looks like.

However, positive does not equal permissive and sometimes there come a place when a correction is warranted. With a strong willed dog you really do have to be on top of your game and very clear about what you are trying to teach and what your expectations for behavior are.

I think it is a starting point. Will she some time down the line what some thing her way, sure, if she didn't she wouldn't be a strong female. But it can be less if you learn to work as a team, you are the #1 and she is the #2 female.

Use some games that let her use that nice thinking mind she has, I believe that is important, you don't want to try to shut that down, because that would #1 be such a waist and #2 I think she would want to really resist that which puts you in conflict.

Also remember she needs to earn things, with strong females I think that earn bar has to be a little higher than say an easy going male. Where a sit before feeding may be good for the male, I would probably ask for a Platz or down or an extended sit from her make her work a little harder for her food.

These of course are just my opinions.

She's eating most of her meals out of toys. Treat balls, Nina Ottoson dog bricks and such.

But I do agree that she needs to work for everything. This is something I will work harder at incorporating into our routine from now on. Up until this point, sometimes I've been lax about it either because I'm in a rush to get somewhere or need her to stick to a certain schedule.

But I agree that it is essential to the success of our rleationship

Again, just my opinion, but she needs to have some normal eating times, out of a food dish. Treats are fine and that is what they should be treats, not meals.

Treats need to be small (pea sized) tasty treats. I use homemade dried beef treats with garlic on them or some cheese if I don't have any thing made. I have also used hotdogs that I have baked/dried.

You need great treats when you are rewarding a new behavior. Is she is use to grazing out of a treat toy all day, you are losing that reward value.

You might even bring her down a notch by feeding her from your hand for a few weeks. Really lets them know all good things come from you. She wants to eat she does by taking food nicley from you.

I, too, say her meals come from her bowl. Once or twice a day – however you feed. No grazing all day long. Put her bowl down, make her sit, release her and then give her a certain time to eat. Don’t let her wander all over. Gently lead her back to her bowl if she strays. If she is adamant, put her in a crate until she learns her etiquette. If she stalls too long, pick up her bowl and wait until the next feeding time. That’s pretty much non-negotiable for me. Meals are at a certain time and they get used to the routine.

Treats and rewards are for special behaviors and activities. Food is sitting and waiting until released and eating and then it’s over. On to the next event...

Thanks for the bit about guiding her back. She does wander when I put her bowl down, and I wasn't sure if I should just let her get back to it and pick it up when time is up, or guide her back.

For treat ball, I give her about 20 minutes with the kibble inside and then it's scattered on the floor.

But you are right, I need to start working on meal time manners.

Emailed a trainer for reading week. He said I was too scattered in my methods and doesn't want me to use the prong. He also said pupper should be crated at all times when not training or pottying. This sounds kind of like Susan Garrett's Ruff Love. I'm not sure what to think. All I want is a dog who can settle down and enjoy family life with some agility/walking/running on the side. If this is what it takes I am prepared to do it. But I wonder how many family dogs receive the same amount of effort in their training...if they can turn out well, what have I done so drastically wrong?

Your methods are scatted because you are learning. You are starting to implement some of the suggestions from members here (lol and some of them are or have been dog trainers).

I think a crate has an important part in training, but I use it for times when I can supervise or an not home. Dogs/Puppies need to have a place they can just go hang out and be a dog.

Is this trainer a competition trainer or a manners/living with a dog trainer. I think there are different mentalities when you are dealing with trainers who train for competition.

I also have a gated safe area for my puppies and dogs to hang out and stay out of trouble. An exercise pen can be use. They have some toys and a blanket. I think this teaches a dog to settle in a house setting better than the crate.

i think you have to ask yourself what "well" means to some people. some folks think that a dog that is quiet in the back yard has turned out well. others think that dogs jumping up on them and being obnoxious have turned out well. some peeps have dogs that are easy to train (yes, they are out there... i have one) some have dogs that are, while not "hard" to train , they take a certian finesse (they are out there i have one of those too). you must remember at all times that every single ddog is different and every single owner has a different "definition" of well turned out. now that you have stated your "goal" ... you will find it easier to pick a training method and a trainer. stick to knowing the "end game" and it will fall into place. give yourself some slack in that this is your first time training and training you while training your dog is always the hardest thing (yes, that is me too!). you are doing already much more than some folks ever do. keep up the good work.

He trains service dogs and working dogs, but also has many "home" clients.

I think I will email him more and see if he can provide me with a more thorough explaination of the method. He said it was not Ruff Love, and I should stop looking at other people and focusing more on my style and what I do. T_T I am at heart, an analytical person. I need details and rational to help me progress in dog training, intuition DOESN'T exist here!

Thank you for reminding me about my end goal. I think I'll email him again and emphasize this to see if the goal and methods are congruent. But I'm just going in for the initial assesment on Saturday, so we'll see how it is.

I think ultimately what you should concentrate on is stepping up your leadership skills. A needs to follow your lead and you need to make sure that you are being consistent, clear and fair. If you can find a trainer who will help you learn to be a better leader for your dog (not a dominatrix but a leader) then you will be in good shape for the future. And I don't know A but it is possible that needs something more than just being a good companion so that is something to consider.

I do crate train puppies and new dogs/fosters but I phase that out for most dogs (Kai needed to be crated in order to be able to fully settle). I don't think it's healthy for them to spends hours on end in the crate. I adopted a dog who lived like that for 4.5 years and he was a mess!

Some people with working dogs keep them crated at all times except when they're working. If this is not what you want for your dog then you need to make that clear to the trainer. At the very least you need to clarify how he envisions you using the crate in the longterm.

I teach a place or bed command to my dogs, starting very young. It basically means that I want them to go over to a spot and settle down. The wonderful thing about this is that it transfers and all I really need is a towel on the floor anywhere and my dogs will go and lie down and chill out. It becomes automatic (like the toy redirection) with consistent use.

The prong is a tool and it sometimes gets results quickly. The key is going to be whether you can completely take the prong out of the picture and get the same, consistent results. I'm still pushing the incompatible behavior (redirection to a toy) because this is something that dogs very quickly learn to do on their own and it's fun for both of you. For Rafi, carrying the ball is his job with me. When other people are taking care of him he does not treat the ball job seriously. With me he's very serious about it because he knows I expect him to do the job of taking care of the ball.

Ruth, that is a very thoughtful post. I have to come back and respond to it, I have an auditing midterm this evening.

I am so glad I posted about training, you guys have really raised a few questions that I haven't thought of before, and would love the answers to.

When I speak to trainers, it's easy for me to be pushed-over because of my inexperience. Having you guys as a sounding board will really ensure that I can ask the right and tough questions so that I can commit MYSELF 100% to a training method.

I agree with Ruth, it really depends on how YOU want to use the crate. I do think that you *should be able to* crate the dog at any time, but that doesn't mean you have to actually crate the dog all the time to get that result. For example, one of my dogs is not regularly crated at all, but I can still put him in a crate for a few hours if/when I need to, and when we watch movies in the basement he usually goes into Nikon's crate on his own while we're all downstairs. How much crating you need to do and how to do it really depends on the individual dog and your goals.

I think as you learn you will settle on your method. You can only do this through studying, questioning and trying things which is what you are doing.

I was going to PM you about lots of advice but I'll just say it here. Everyone has things that work for them. My way may not be Ruth's way or Val's way. Lies may think I am off the wall or way off base. Everyone has learned through experience what has worked for them so they will give advice based on their experience. It is not wrong, it just may not be the same for everyone and it may not be the best for you and A. This is where you have to apply the litmus test of 1) is it logical, 2) is it humane and fair, 3) can I do it and follow through consistently.

I do train for competition, I have taught classes at several clubs over the years. That does not make me an expert with your dog. What works for me may not work for you and it will change with each dog. When my new pup shows up sometime this year I may also be asking HELP!!! I may face something I have never run across so we are all students here.

Dogs learn by the laws of behavior just like we do. They do what works to get them what they want. The real secret of dog training is figuring out how to work with that. I always joked I would have it all down by my 10th dog until a good trainer/ mentor/friend told me no - won't happen, we just find other mistakes to make. So don't stress over not having the answers or making mistakes. We all make them every day.

I do use a crate but not excessively. I use a crate to manage and contain a puppy when I cannot supervise, and when I am in bed at night, and to provide a safe quiet place to rest. As they get more mature they spend less time in a crate at home, in fact I don't crate at home at all right now. My dogs have crates at home with the doors open and they do use them by their own choice, it is a place for them to den and get some alone time. They do need to crate at dog shows and sometimes at class. But I never crate for more than 2 hours without a break.

Often a dog that is crated after a training session will learn faster as they get to rest and think on what they just learned. So a crate is a good tool to use for that as well.

Whichever trainer you decide on, be consistent with them and you will find your methods will get more organized. You also need to be clear on what you want for the dog. In 6 months you will be a lot different and more confident than you are now.

I also feel like I need to analyze everything. I want to know how and why it works. Sometimes that is good and sometimes not.

Spent 3 hours freezing with the trainer outside today. The verdict?
My relationship with Amaretto SUCKS. My super nerdy, faculty-appropriate analogy is I supply too much love and attention, since her demand for attention is fixed, this oversupply drives down the price of my love and attention. She isn't SEEKING me out, and is not engaged with me. Michael said this could be a result of her lineage...but I really think it's just like I said, supply and demand.

He doesn't want me to adopt formalized methods or prescribe me a set method to follow. He said I would follow his word down to the T instead of recognizing her problems and thinking through them myself to develop an appropriate reaction.

What he has me working on for the next while is, controlling my urge to give pupper attention.

She must seek me out and come to me for affection. I am not to go up to her, not to pet her or talk to her when she her attention is not on me. If we are training, I am not to use treats or frantic movements to "get" her back. I am to let her demonstrate an interest to work with me and be with me on her own.

Some exercises he suggested were going into the yard, and have her wander. Mark and reward when she wanders near my left leg.

Going into a big park with a long line, let her do whatever she wants on the other side of the line, praise and reward when she comes near.

I'm not sure if I should do the crate and give no attention thing, that is certainly in line with what my trainer is preaching.

He's telling you to practice NILIF...I would subscribe to that advice but also get her to engage with me...not on a long line, maybe off line. Have ME be exciting and a great place to be. Your trainer may be shooting down your confidence along with Ameretto's/ not fair.
You do not SUCK as a handler.
But do please make yourself more relaxed and engaged with her.
Screw it if she messes up a bit, no big deal, she's a pup after all.
In two years if you are still in a circular motion, you can consider yourself a failure, now you are just learning/growing with your amazing puppy.

Don't let your trainer tell you different.

Jane has nailed it I think!

With Molly I made so many mistakes and am only just seeing lots of improvement. With Cooper I take treats with me everywhere we go, and ANY time he is next to me (and at this stage I don't care what side)I reward him.

We have been going to the beach lately and you should see the bruises on my legs from him been stuck to me! He almost trips me up as he knows being near me = yummies!

I am not experienced compared to many here but I am happy with his focus at 17 weeks, just my experience.

I think you are probably being way too hard on yourself

Yep, this is plain old NILIF. Your trainer sounds like he may be on to something. I did not know you were giving too much attention and petting her a lot. But you would not have said that if you thought you were.

What your trainer wants to do is make A want to be with you of her choice and is using a very tried and true method to do that - ignore the dog til she comes to you, looks at you, or does something for you. Then her reward is your attention.

Yes.
Plain old NILF. Here I thought I was doing it already by asking for behaviors before I play, but he's right, it's not as superficial as that. I didn't know I was giving her too much attention. I knew I was spending ALOT of time with her, but didn't understand that it undermined my leadership or our relationship.

Day 1 of new training schedule and I feel like CRAP. Feel more incompetent than ever.

She barked in her crate from 7:30 to 12...until my dad finally could not take it anymore and went in to correct her when I was not looking. I had to move her to the expen after that because I could not ask my parents to ignore the barking anymore. She does not bark when left alone in the expen. She also does not bark if crated next to me after her bedtime. My dad said it's becuase she does not understnad barking in crate is wrong, but I'm not sure. THe trainer said it's due to lack of freedom and frustration...but isn't it the same in the expen...then why?? Tomorrow, I will continue crate and ignore when not working with her, but do it during the day. At night, when my parents are approaching bed time, if I cannot go to bed and be next to her yet, I will proactively move her to the expen so she does not get a reinforcement for barking. Does this sound right?

For the relationship building, when we go into the yard together and I let her play...she REALLY plays without coming to me at all. I will continue with this as it's only been a day and the yard is a new new fascinating place to her. I hope it all works out.

For leg biting. Today, because I have been ignoring her almost completely. So naturally, when we went out into the yard, the leg biting is worse than before. I think it's an extinction behavior, like bursts of desperation to try and get my attention more than ever before. I have stopped with the prong at trainer's suggestion. Trainer told me to tough it out. If we are walking and she is biting, i will change directions into her, which is apparently unpleasent. I am worried that me walking while she is biting is reinforcing as it turns into a long tug game for her. The leg biting stops if I walk to the door and get ready to go inside. If I am standing, I will remain standing and not react. She has stopped in this scenario. But this is just day 1, I've emailed the trainer for clarification on if I am doing it right, and will persist to see if it works. I am SO glad its winter, beer+2 sweatpants + rainboots has been the only thin gthat kept me from swearing to high heaven when she lands her bites.

Like everyone said, the problem in this relationship is me. I am too inexperienced, I don'[t have enough intuition and do alot of superficial steps to make myself feel better when it comes to my relationship with the dog. My trainer said that my situation (university student not completely independent to make all of my choices, 0 experience) makes my original decision to get puppy a wrong one. I've questioned my decision a lot, and do have regrets. But I love her, if anything, I am not short on EFFORT to make this work. When do I know that effort and love aren't enough. I've only had her for 2 months, and only started with the new rpgoram for a day...I need to give both of us more time I know...but I feel so crummy and incompetant...:(

Yes the extinction burst is normal and behavior will get worse before it gets better. Ride it out and you will succeed. If you give in and then try again to ignore it the behavior will actually be stronger.

If you move her to the xpen make sure she is quiet before you open the crate door. Leash her and lead her to the xpen without eye contact or other attention, if possible. If you feel like interacting with her ask her to sit first and make eye conatact.

I just wanted to offer you a big One day at a time.

Day 5.
I just wasted my last 5 days worth of taking her bites.
I went out unprepared for our last potty, wearing only 1 layer of pants and slippers instead of my usual 2 layers of sweatpants +snow pants + rainboots combo. She got my legs because I was walkling away from my boyfriend, whom she wanted to go towards. She then got frustrated and bit me. I tried my best to ignore, but one of her bites broke skin and REALLY hurt. I am a whiny person with low pain tolerance, and instinctively tightened the leash.
WHAT THE EFF DID I DO!?
...
I feel like I just fed the troll and made the behavior harder to go away. I wish I could just slap a prong on and fix it.
On another note, I'm not sure if I'm doing NILF right. She still isn't really seeking me out when in backyard. She'll run near and then run away. She's better when we're on a long line and out in a field together. She'll move in my general direction and even come up a few times. When she does these things, I reward with a treat. She only gets out of crate when I take her out, she is put away when I'm not working with her. I don't go to her for affection, she comes to me then I briefly pat and move on.

I'm just short of the 2 day shutdown, which my trainer didn't have me do.

On a positive note, our looseleash walking is at 80% on an empty street.

Kathy,

REad what I did...did I feed the behavior?!

Thanks Bianca...I'm not sure I have the mental fortitude to do this.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but does she have a safe, friendly dog to play with? I will leave it to the experts but I wonder if a) that would knacker her out and b) the older dog may correct her for biting/mouthing and if that could flow through to you.

I'm sorry I don't have enough experience to offer much, I felt like I went through hell when Molly was the same age. It did get better.

Hi Bianca.

Thanks for the hugs. I'm hopeful it'll get better Though my dad suggested I muzzle her so I don't end up with COMPLETELY bloody and bruised legs. I didn't think it was necessary, but boy am I tempted!

No, she does not have an older dog to play with. After greeting my trainer's dog Carmspack Badger during the evaluation, my trainer suggested that I not let Pupper play with another dog until my bond strengthens. He said she was focused on the other dog way more than she was focused on people

Also, she is reactive to dogs. Though on meeting, she is entirely friendly, she does bark very loudly on sight. So I don't know, I wouldn't feel comfortable letting my dog play if it were the other way around.

It's not HELL right now. But I want to address the root of the problem, and I'm not sure I am.

You may have but it is not the end of the world. I don't think tightening the leash is that bad. I think if you had screamed and jumped and jerked her and ran maybe. But put this behind you and press on, tomorrow is another day. It sounds as if she is a very independent little cuss.

I am not sure how I feel about your trainer saying no dog play for her because your bond is not strong enough. I keep this separate in my mind as they need social interaction when they are young. She may be reactive because she has no idea how to act around other dogs. She needs to know this too.

I understand that your trainer wants her to think you are the most interesting thing in the world and nothing wrong with that, but I think denying her socialization with other dogs is not the answer to that. Bianca is right, it will wear her out some. Denying dog play to make you more interesting is very old school and I do not think it really addresses the issue.

Another book to consider..... I just started reading this myself. Control Unleashed Puppy Program by Leslie McDevitt.

Marshies, if its any small consolation, I bought a soft muzzle for Molly when she was a pup just to train her to be used to it. Well my Dad was over here and staying with us for a week while they looked for property. Anyway he got so sick of her biting his feet, he put it on her a few times.

Of course now I know I should have stood up to him but I truly don't think it has in any way harmed her. And that reminds me, I must get Cooper used to it too.

My Pan was REALLY focused on other dogs for a long time. He is 18 months and I am just now letting him meet dogs other than my own. In my opinion, a dog that likes other dogs and is safe playing with them will always be this way, even if it means getting a handle on some other things before introducing other dogs into the equation. Luckily I have good friends with good dogs so we can try all sorts of combos. Just last night was Pan's *first* time running totally free with multiple dogs (other than my own). He met a 10 week olde puppy, then ran around with another male GSD and two female Corgis and had a blast. I also let him play with an older female GSP in our own yard a few weeks ago. I don't necessarily think that bond issues between you and your dog would get in the way of her interacting with other dogs, but I do agree with focusing on getting her more under control and a better working relationship with her in general before adding more dogs to the mix. If she is good with other dogs, then she will be good with other dogs whether she gets to play at 10 months or almost 2 years. JMHO

A dog that is so focused on others may just need to play with some to see that they aren't all "that"...their person is much better! I've never had a GSD that is so focused on others though, except to fight. That is when the line is drawn. And it is a harder issue to deal with than one that just wants to play.
I never let my dogs play with strange ones, they have each other. But if I had a singleton, I would want a nice stable dog with the same playstyle/size to have my dog get out that needed energy.
I was thinking today, people with only one dog have it a bit harder than those with more.
On the other hand, Onyx has been starting fights with Kacie randomly and I wish I never had two females living under one roof. Onyx is such a PITA!

Here is another one of those - you get to decide what feels right to you -

I do allow my young dogs and pups to play with other dogs and puppies. Dogs and puppies I know. Dogs and puppies NEED to play and NEED to be social.

Denying a social animal interaction with us or others of thier own kind in order to build a' bond' is riduculous. Controlling access, using NILIF, and good management to teach a puppy good manners is different. But when gone to excess can border on mental abuse.

In some cases no matter how great a trainer or owner we are, there will be things out there that are more interesting than me. Trying to get a young dog to focus on me when there are a bunch of geese or squirrels is a losing battle. Either move farther away or Premack the geeese (let her chse them as a reward for looking at you). Just and example.

It is not the end of the world or your 'bond' if there are more interesting things than you in your dog's life.


There are times when my husband is not the most interesting thing to me either, that does not mean we are heading for a divorce. It means I might be quilting or working with the dogs while he is watching TV.

Step back, take a breath and use common sense.

True Kathy now that I think about it I have it easy b/c I have 3-4 dogs at a time. I allow my own dogs unlimited access to each other when I'm around (and sometimes even when I'm not). Other dogs...not so much. I pick and choose pretty carefully, and so far Pan's my only GSD that has shown any interest in interacting with non-pack dogs anyway (Coke does too so DH takes him to a dog park). For me there is a delicate balance to be reached with dog social interaction, especially with a breed like a GSD that IMO is not a real dog-social type dog to begin with. I imagine this is much harder having a GSD as an only dog.

I agree that forcing a dog to focus on you by taking away everyone else is cruel and unnecessary.

When I adopted Rafi he went nuts every time we saw another dog or person. Nuts as in, "We absolutely must go see them!" He also spent a lot of time hunting mice when he was off leash and didn't pay much attention to me. And he had really poor social skills with other dogs so when I did let him meet them they would respond to his over-exuberance (he was not a puppy) very cooly and sometimes harshly. So I took a step back. I did allow him to play with a few other dogs who had good social skills and with whom he was very comfortable. If he was acting inappropriately around other dogs (stealing their toys or bullying them) I would remove him from the situation and I kept him out of multiple dog situations for quite a while until I was sure that he was confident enough in my leadership to mind his manners.

He is still a work in progress: we don't see nearly as many strange dogs in the winter around here and so when the weather gets nicer and he starts seeing other dogs again I have to remind him to mind his manners. However, in the nicer weather we see lots of strange dogs and he is allowed to interact with them. In the summer, at my cottage, he meets lots of strange dogs and does fine.

In terms of getting him to focus on me (instead of field mice or other dogs, for example) I did A LOT of play training. I played hide and seek with him outside, off leash, I played ball with him, I ran and had him chase me, I taught him all kinds of fun tricks like going under my legs, going behind me, going around me, etc. I basically made myself and his training the most fun thing in the world, both inside and outside of the house. I love to play with my dogs so this wasn't too difficult. Today, with a very few exceptions, he would much rather play with me than with another dog and I can call him off of a dog play session or a mouse hunting session with a whistle and "Let's Go."

I also just wanted to say that my first dog, Massie, was a really difficult dog to train. I was 22 years old, new to dogs and she was very smart, fancied herself a natural born leader and definitely had her own agenda. She only ever really listened to me and that took a lot of work and wasn't always at the top of her agenda. I stressed out a lot about screwing up her training (and I did screw up some things by using overly harsh methods that were popular at the time) but she turned out to be such a great dog that people still talk about her today! I gave her tons of attention and she spent most of her time with me (even came to work with me a couple of days a week). This, in my opinion, was a large part of why she turned out to be such a great dog, despite my inexperience: we had an amazing bond.

Lies I also think that when we have an agenda for our dogs (SchH, agility, family pet) that can change they way we see things and the things we allow.

I know a lot of the SchH people do not want to inhibit biteing in piuupies, they don't want the dog interacting with other dogs, they crate the dog unless it is working etc. Agility people do a lot of the same things. I think when we get extreme it is a really bad thing. I was reading a story about an agility person that covered over her windows because her new puppy was looking out to see the world out there. Since the puppy enjoyed that she took it away as the puppy was only going to get to enjoy agility. Ridicluous and cruel.

Maybe I should go back and explain. My reasoning for keeping Pan away from other non-pack dogs was not to "force focus" on me but because I didn't trust how he acted toward strange dogs, and did not trust that he would obey commands like down or recall when cut loose with other dogs. He has very high prey drive, so he loves to chase other dogs and will use his teeth. This is fine with a dog like Nikon that he grew up around and understands this style of play, but with some dogs Pan is just too much, or the other dog turns around to retaliate and a fight starts. He also went through that phase around 6-8 months where he would hackle and bark at other dogs. My opinion is that if the dog is already showing some behaviors that need to be carefully addressed and closely monitored when interacting with other dogs, and the owner is already having trouble controlling the dog and communicating expectations, I would pick my battles. Work on one thing at a time, baby steps. I still believe that if a dog is stable in the head and is OK with other dogs, it's going to be OK with other dogs a few months down the line even if you take the time NOW to work on issues that don't include other dogs. I brought up Pan as an example because other than my pack dogs, he has been insulated from cutting loose to interact with other dogs and yet at 18 months he is fine playing with strange dogs in his own yard or meeting a pack of five other dogs at the park. Genetically, he's a social dog that is good with most other dogs. That doesn't change from 8 weeks to 8 months to 2 years.

I am not like most SchH people in that I do not use crates to eek out drive or force separation between me or between dogs. My dogs all have free access to each other. I also don't subscribe to the rule that you can only play with certain toys with your dog. My dogs work with me because they were born to do it and they love doing it with me. I have toys all over my house and yard, the SAME exact toys we use in Schutzhund, agility, dock diving, and flyball and guess what my dogs don't blow me off in training or competition. They work because they want to, not because I trick them into thinking the super-special toy is in my pocket or because I've kept them in a crate for 24 hours prior or haven't fed them for a day.

i have been thinking of your problems. i find it so very odd, yet i have remembered just a few wekeks ago there was a puppy out at our schH group. it was started on the puppy rag and that pup dove right around it to bite the helpers leg. did it again and again. was nt distracted by the bite rag, just hell bent on biteing the helper. this was such odd behaviour... we all agreed. then the breeder of the puppy, who was there with the owner, says... ha ha ha isnt that great! i taught all the puppies to bite legs, i thought that would help them in schH! the owner also saidk it ws something this puppy always did, but she just thought she should let him do it for schH sake.

you say that you got ameretto at 4 mos.... what was she doing before that? could her previous life have some sort of effect on what she is doing to you?

I thought this was solved!

I don't think a muzzle is a bad thing. I don't know though...

Huh. Nothing is coming to me. Blank.

I have had two very strong minded GSD's, one male and one female. To me the female was the hardest to work with, but we got some thing figured out. She had one interest other than biting the backs of my legs and that was tracking. She was 8 weeks old when I got her and when outside I could not keep her nose off the ground, what a PIA. So I spent time with her tracking some times it was my scent, some times my husband some times the cats. But we also away from those times did some training incorporated with play.

Fritz, the op have been in contact with the breeder and if I am not mistaken the breeder has offered to take the pup back. I personally don't think there is a darn thing wrong with this pup, there is a very good chance that this is just not a good match for a first time GSD owner. Not all pups are a good match in every situation. This breeder breeds show line dogs that have some moxie.

oh whoops...must have missed that post.

i think that is a great thing to be able to work with the breeder like that.

Schnickle Fritz, I know we are all really trying to help.

Strong pups and I think more so with females can be a challenge especially for a first time owner. These little bitches can be a handful because they were given these wonderful genes and boy or boy (or bitch oh bitch) do they want to exercise them. Reminds me of the little female that Carolina posted on the Temp. test video. She looked like she had zero interest in Dennie behind the umbrella, she knew he was there but had different thing on her mind.

You rock!!! I think I understood this from many other things you post and was not pointing at anything you did that I disagreed with, it was just an in general comment directed more toward the new trainer wanting to use acess and some social isolation to help develope a bond between MArshies adn A. I think A is simply a strong minded and very independent pup, maybe low pack drive.

On the contrary, I think 99.9% of your ideas are good ones. I did not want to say 100% cause none of us is perfect!

I agree. I'll be danged if I would let anyone tell me to limit my access to my puppy/dog or take away his fun/learning/natural drive for "bonding" purposes. Or any sport purpose, for that matter.

Thank you guys. The perspectives you've offered are very valuable, especially enjoyed the discussion on access to other dogs.

There's NOTHING wrong with Amaretto, and everything wrong with my handling, which is fixable and something I'm willing to work at. She isn't very into me, but is attracted to other consistent and strong leaders, like my breeder and my trainers. In terms of drives, though I don't know much, I don't think anything she does is particularly difficult to handle for me, other than this biting. My trainer and my breeder have both pointed out that the biting is an issue made worse by my poor handling of the situation. I didn't communicate well to puppy that this is wrong and won't get my attention. I enjoy the level of intensity she goes for her flirt pole, her food, and her tug. It makes it fun for me to interact with her. I don't know how her drives play out in her outside of play behaviors, so can't comment on whether she is a good fit for me. As long as we show improvement through training, I'm willing to keep trying as she matures. When she is more mature and still does not click with me, or if after more training and help I'm still not making progress, then I will take up my breeder's offer.

My trainer got concerned at my latest blog posts and how desolate I sound...and called me in for a training session. The prong is back on Amaretto because he really sees that I don't have the pain tolerance or handling ability to communicate that biting is undesirable to her without the harder correction. We also worked on some exercises that rewards puppy for minding me while walking, not just eye contact, but also awareness of my start and stop. Right now, though our loose leash is going well, it's just a movement for her. She isn't loose leash because she is minding me, she is loose leash because she gets walked back when she pulls forward.

She may be showing improvement in her dog reactivity. We walked by a house yesterday with CRAZY barky little dog inside. Amaretto's tail went up, indicating to me that she KNOWS the dog exists and cares about it, but she didn't bark, stop or fixate, and kept moving with me and relaxed when we passed it. Today at the trainers, she saw a dog she's been introduced to previously, and didn't bark either, even after staring at it for a little while. For her dog reactivity, I'll be going to the dog park to work outside, far away from the fence, so that seeing dogs can become a non-event to her.

Playing with dogs isn't a part of her usual life. I will ALWAYS be a one dog household, she doesn't go to dog parks, and encounters in class are all at a distance or quick greets. I was just thinking about it because I thought it's proper puppy raising and socialization. I agree with Lies that GIVEN my lack of experience, I don't want to have her play with dogs, develop POOR behaviors that I don't recognize.

I am glad that things are getting a little better for you. You are in a tough situation with Amaretto being a strong female. Like I said I actually think strong females are harder to learn on that strong males.

Cheyenne is my Alpha bitch, she will give kisses to every one and any one but me, because we just don't have that type of relationship. But her eyes are seldom off me, she know what I am doing at all times. She knows she can get away with bad thing with my DH that she won't try with me.

So you may end up with a female that isn't cuddly, but respects you. There are times when I will sit on the floor and just brush on Cheyenne. She will put up with it for a while, then she wants to play ball.

I do enjoy her a lot because I don't really care for clingy dogs. I don't need a dog leaning on me or crawling up in my lap all the time.

I have said this in the past and I will say it any time I think there maybe a mismatch of owner and dog. There is no shame in admitting that a dog and you aren't a good match. The shame would be having a dog and owner unhappy for the rest of the dogs life. I know you heart says that you love Amaretto, but I want you to take some time and really think this through. First, the longer she is with you the harder it will be to return her, next the breeder is going to have to spend more time working with her to be able to find the right home for her. I want every person who has a GSD to have the dog of their dreams not the dog of their nightmares. I am not saying any of this to be mean or hurtful, I just want what is best for both you and Amaretto. Personally, I would like to see you with a nice steady male, not everyone is equipped to handle a strong bitch as their first GSD.

Am I understanding you correctly that you're saying that you're never going to let her play with other dogs because you won't know good from bad play behaviors? This is a dog who lived with other dogs until she was 4 months old, correct? If that's the case then she knows dog-dog language and you can probably learn a great deal from watching her. Also, take a look at Turid Rugaas's website: http://www.canis.no/rugaas/index.php

Finding another dog for her to play with could be a great thing for both of you. It would let her be a dog, give her a chance to burn off some of that crazy energy and allow you to see what she's like in a different circumstance.

And please remember that you have your entire life ahead of you! Never say never...you could end up in a relationship with someone with another dog or you could end up living next door to someone with a really nice, friendly dog...you cannot definitively predict these things.

I think maybe you are thinking too hard about everything?

ETA: I agree with the mismatch considerations. I said this earlier but there are several seasoned handlers on this board who have returned dogs b/c they weren't a good match and now have the dog of their dreams. I have not found males or females easier or harder to handle (my two most difficult dogs and my easiest dogs to train were all male) but I do agree that an easy going dog with moderate drives would be a much better match for you.

Val,

What am I looking for that indicates a poor fit? It's something I've thought about, and I have no shame in admitting if it is a poor fit.

She was not alpha at all in her litter, and my breeder thought she was a sweet girl who would be a good fit for me.

My original gender preference was a male...but having Amaretto here, her size is PERFECT for me. My coordination abilities cannot handle a bigger dog.

No, not never going to let her. Up till this point she hasn't played with other dogs because

a)Setting up with another dog has been difficult. I live near campus, and NO ONE here has a dog. Puppy needs to play with someone with her play style, which would be a bit rough for smaller dogs. My trainer in Kingston has been on the lookout for me for a while, but hasn't found a good fit.

b)I'm worried that I won't be able to notice bad behaviors that develop into further problems. Not her recognition of the other dog's body language, but rough or inappropriate play, pressing the other dog too much, etc. Thank you for the link, I will take a look. I've been hearing about this DVD and book for a while, and intend to pick it up.

I think what I meant to say was, my desire to have her play with another dog stems from the fact that it's what I've always considered proper growth and socialization. I'm trying to arrange it, but it is difficult and I have reservations.

Sorry for misunderstanding! I found the book more helpful than the dvd but that's just me.

Rafi and I might be up your way next month. We would be in Orangeville with lots of hiking trails nearby. If you have a car and could get out there, I will let you know when I'm in the area. Rafi might or might not like A but if he doesn't like her he will just ignore her and do his own thing...which involves running around with a ball in his mouth.

Ruth,

It was my fault for not writing it out better. You have been more than helpful with your suggestions.

Please let me know and I will attempt it!! No car, but maybe...maybe some willing friends.

If Rafi doesn't like A, all the better. My trainer's dog completely ignored A at his request, and it gave her proper socialization while not making meeting another dog MORE exciting for her than it already is.

Running around with a ball...Amaretto isn't into balls yet. Her retrieve is entirely treats driven right now, which is okay. I know some of them wake up one day and grow into their retrieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAifnqD-gL8&feature=g-upl&context=G2ffc435AUAAAAAAABAA

Here's a video of us from 2 days ago, with our loose leash practice.

In the beginning, when you hear me talking, that's when we walked passed the house with the barking dog. Should I have praised her when she looked at the house and looked away? I'm torn between walking past dog things like they're non-events and praising her for choosing to look away.

Of course, I didn't catch her look away during the walk, but after rewatching this video 1000X, I see it.

My timing is awful for everything from corrections to rewards, and something I will work on.

Is Elisabeth (from this board) anywhere near you? Just wondering if you could meet up with her perhaps?

Nice walking. She walks better than Havoc, but then again my criteria is different. I don't care if he stops to sniff, as long as he is not dragging me down the street.

I had the sound way down on my computer as I am at work so I did not hear if you used praise or not. I would praise her every time she looks back at you. You might even reward with food. If she looks at a dog and looks away I would praise and reward - EVERY time. This exercise is actually the basis of Leslie mcDevitt's Look at That! exercise. I highly endorse this author, she has been as benificial for me as Turid Rugaas has.

Marshies, it is hard to just point to one thing that you and "A" are not a good match, it is more the whole picture. I think males are way more forgiving than females on a whole. Many a trainer or competitor who made a mistake training a bitch will tell you that bitches don't forget, but they will make you remember that you made the mistake, some times over and over again.

She is pushing your buttons now so to speak, in my opinion she isn't going to change that over night and any time you slip or let up she will willing take advantage of that. She may not have been Alpha in the litter but she wants to be now.

I call my Cheyenne Large and In Charge. She is 10 an will still try to take advantage of any weakness she sees. So she is very regulated to keep thing in check, if you give her an inch she is going to take a mile. She is friendly with other dogs outside her pack as long as they don't try to dominate her. She really doesn't care much for other females in her pack.

So I guess I just want you to really think this through and know that you maybe signing up for her life time of trying you for leadership. It may become more subtle but it will probably still be there.

-- very well said.

your walking marshies, looked good. personally i would have thrown a party everytime she came back into BP... i would be more interested to see video of her biteing you since that is your worst problelm...

The walking video looked very good, like you were passing a CGC test. I didn't have sound on so I might have missed out but to me it *looked* a little stiff, a little too formal for a puppy going on a walk. I would make sure she understands when she has to heel closely like that, and when she is "free" to move up a bit, sniff around. If I'm walking a dog for exercise, I find that keeping them close and moving at my pace doesn't really satiate their needs. I tend to use 6-8' leashes and don't mind them moving ahead and sniffing around as long as they aren't pulling me any direction. For example, Coke will trot in front of me, then stop at a tree, and then just before he knows the leash is going to pop b/c now he's way behind, he stops and trots ahead again. If that's how he wants to walk, I don't care as long as he's never pulling me ahead or causing the leash to pop because he stopped moving behind me. Also I tend to praise my dogs whenever they "check in" close to me and make eye contact, even when we're not doing formal heeling. I just smile and say "Hi! That's very nice"

Hi Lies,

I agree it is a bit formal. I haven't incorporated the flexibility into my training yet where I know how to "turn on and turn off" good walking behaviors, so I am staying consistent with loose leash walking, and then putting her on a long line to sniff around.

I am just starting the praise and even some treats when she checks in. But I notice when I treat once, she'll be looking at treat hand instead of checking in on me. Something I'll be emailing my trainer about.

What is BP?

I also didn't care if she stopped and sniffed, but unfortunately, I don't have the training skills quite yet to communicate stop and sniff is okay, but pulling me is not.

Will check those 2 resources as well.

Thanks!

Hi Val,

She LOVES training incorporated with play, she'll do anything for a toy. She'll probably also enjoy tracking!

She's pretty affectionate. When I pet her she curves her body towards me. She'll flop and roll over for belly rubs. Yesterday, I was checking her ear and rewarded her with a head rub. She dropped the entire weight of her head into my hands.

I have ALOT of trouble objectively evaluating her "testing for leadership", and whether or not she's a good fit...because OTHER than biting, which we are correcting now, I love her so much...

She wasn't ENCOURAGED to bite on pant legs...THAT at least I know for sure.
She lived with my breeders, who have small children in their household, so I don't imagine they would want puppies who interacted frequently with small children be leg-biting menaces.

I just wanted to say that I'm really learning a lot reading this thread. Thanks to the OP for clarity and great questions and experienced people for their views.

I truly hope that the effort spent on raising a great puppy is returned 1000-fold.

Marshies, since she will engage with you in play/training I would really be working that to my advantage. Get her happy to be working WITH you and not against you. Some bitches will fight or resist just because. So if you don't give her the times to resist or fight against you right now, you will be forming a good relationship.

This is suppose to be a real fun time in your dogs life. Puppies are like little growing blobs of clay, this is your opportunity to mold that clay into the dog you want in the future. So playing while training is important in my mind and how I work with my pups and dogs.

Make it fun to be with you, that doesn't mean you have to be 24/7 fun, but the times you are really together make it fun.

=== so do you use the toy to redirect when she bites your leg??

I think we went into the toy use earlier in the thread and I think it backfired?

I too would use a toy as much as possible and if it did not work move to correction.

To let her go sniff just tell her go sniff, do it while she sniffs so she associates the word with the permission. Then you want to one on tell her Let's go and start walking again.

I am going to stick to the correction this time, to be consistent with this method that IS working.

It's not safe for me to always use a toy. She bites me when I cross streets with her sometimes, and

a) I just can't stop in the middle to grab toy and engage her away.
b) sometimes we'll already be engaged with a toy, but she'll stop with the toy and go back to my legs

Do you have a place where you can do some play/training before the walk. To be honest just walking like she is dong with you is oh hum drum boring. That may lead to her biting you out of frustration.

I use "walk out" or some times a "Walk out - easy" if I am allowing the dogs to be out in front of me. They are free to sniff and explore, but as Lies said NO pulling.

Hi Val,

She bites even after the offleash. Previously, we did 1 hour of offleash play in tennis court, and I would still get bitten on the way home. But I agree that she bites out of frustration. A couple of times she was tired and wanted to lie down, I pulled her up and she nipped my legs.

Both our 30 minute play/training sessions today went really well. She was engaged with me, and tail was wagging. We did flirt pole with a couple self control games, like down stay while I drop the toy on the ground, watch me while toy is in other hand, etc. We also practiced calling her name "puppy".

I'm finding difficulty in having her focus on me more during walks. Like you said, I'm probably not interesting enough. My trainer showed me in about an hour, and he had her entirely captivated doing much of the same thing...I'm going to give him another call to walk through what it is that I am doing wrong.

It looks like 30 mins is a good amount of exercise maybe the hour was too much. She she was tired and just lashed out, not that I would find this acceptable, but if you push a pup too hard, then it a problem you created.

One thing you can do when walking is to vary your speed, walk faster walk slower. Heck I have even been known to skip once in a while. I walk in zig-zag patterns. Basically my dog isn't sure what I might do so they keep an eye on me. Cheyenne is pretty attentive even though she may not be looking in my face. I had a trainer once tell me that she wasn't paying any attention to me and I said bull. So we did some of the random things and Cheyenne was right with me. She knew where I was and when I changed some thing.

I am not saying you aren't interesting, it is just that controlled heeling to a six month old pup is just boring. So if you mix some things up, try some little OB things, let her walk out ahead of you as long as she isn't pulling.

Yeah the controlled heeling on a walk might be too much for this age.

Take my Pan for example. He's 18 months, we all still call him "the puppy". He has a real nice formal competition heel, like so:


But can this dog go on a normal loose leash walk around the block? Uh, no! I can of course do a formal competition heel, but that requires the right energy from *me* and isn't something I do to exercise the dog, neither of us can sustain it for more than a few minutes at a time (nor should we). Pan's walks are basically darting around sniffing spot to spot and I just use a prong collar for control, he responds well to that. He doesn't pull into it and responds well to a good correction here and there. Asking him to do a loose leash walk type heel, without going through a formal training ritual of building and capping the drive, is just too much for him right now. He's SO happy and social and curious, he wants to check everything out and he just can't help it.

I'm just using this as an example because I don't want you to feel like your dog has to walk a mile at attention, especially at this age and with her temperament, which sounds like she wants to keep track of everything and be in charge. An empty sidewalk might seem pretty bland to us but to a dog there's still a lot of distraction.

Marshies,
You have a very nice, young female GSD puppy.
She is spirited, confident and has normal drives for the breed. She is one of my favorite young females, and I would have gladly kept her.

She needs a *leader*, in order to *follow*.
You are doing too many mixed methods, trying too many Internet theories, and not establishing proper leadership skills.....this is very confusing for a young dog.
She is having too much presented to her for her age.

She is not a robot, and cannot perform like one.
You need to start at the "beginning" and become her owner/leader, before you even try to *train* her to do anything else.
Hopefully...Michael can assist you in your learning.

*My offer to have Amaretto returned to me is 100% secure.....I will gladly replace her with a much more compliant, docile puppy in the future.*
As some have suggested....perhaps this was not a correct match of pup and owner......I am here always... for suggestions, problems and decisions.....whatever you may need.
JMO

wow marshies...you indeed picked the right breeder. you are very very lucky.



if i were you, the biteing of me, would be my main concern just now. if she does this becasue she is exausted or mad that to me,just shows her disrespect for you. some people are just naturally born leaders. some are not. i have seen mmore than a few folks have trouble with thier dogs becasue they are not consistant, dont have the "stomach" for stern corrections even when they are needed, dont have the quick reflexes for reward based training. or they just think that training is too much trouble and just give up. i have observed them, trained with them and have listened to stories not unlike yours from these same folks that just can not see the dog they have is not the dog they should have. i have to commentd you for asking questions, taking critizism, and getting help. please, do some serious thinking about ameretto and how, perhaps, you can make both your lives more enjoyable by giving her back and getting another pup that is more adaptable to you. you would not be a failure or a bad dog mom... truely you would not.

I watched the video and it looks like she's doing an amazing job on a leash, especially for her age. All of my dogs and foster dogs were dragging me all over the place at that age. Maybe you are expecting too much from her? If the biting is truly the only problem then why not just focus on that?

She does not look like an out of control puppy with some kind of dominance agenda at all. I think she's just being a confident, spirited puppy and I think you need to step up your leadership skills and have fun at the same time.