This is my first thread, and it's going to be an essay so please bear with me!

Before we go on, I do want to say I am talking with my breeder AND my trainer about the issues I'm facing. But as a first time dog owner and someone who didn't grow up with dogs, I don't know what the norm is and what to expect, so a third, fourth, fifth, and even sixth opinion is desperately needed and warmly welcomed.

Background:

Amaretto is almost 6 months old. I've had her for 2 months now and we are about to finish our first puppy class together. I am her sole caregiver. My primary goal in her training and care is family companion. In seeking solutions, I am not worried about squishing any kind of drive other than her desire to be with me and her desire to learn.

Three days ago I thought I made a breakthrough with Amaretto. She just STOPPED biting my legs on walks. I have no idea which one of the many desperate things I do worked. We had a glorious 2 days where I was able to take her on long walks downtown and around the university campus to see people, horses, and new exciting surfaces. I was reluctant to go too far prior to this point because she would often get EXTREMELY bitey on my walks and chomp on my legs as we cross the street, endangering both of us. I know it was a breakthrough because sometimes during these 2 days, she would look at my feet, and CHOOSE to look away. Sometimes it'll take her a bit longer to look away, and I'd stomp them to remind her and she would look away. Alas, my two days of happiness were short-lived. The leg biting is back in full swing and harder than ever before.

I don't know WHY she does it, or why my communication to her isn't working. In theory, she and I have a good relationship together because I'm literally her only family during the school year. In theory, she should want to not cause me pain, frustration, and sadness...but I don't think theory is working well for me. Some opinions I have heard are:

This is no longer acceptable as she is past the age of learning bite inhibition. She is inhibited because if she really wanted, she could chomp through my leg.

Putting her mouth on me is an equalizer. I need to do more to establish clear rules and demonstrate fair and consistent leadership around her.

This should and CAN be corrected.

Usually, the events go like this:

She spots my shoes, makes a dive for it.

OR, I take something out from her mouth forcefully, like a wad of wet tissue or an old pizza crust she picked up on the street. She'll make a rumble and frustrated little growl, and go for my shoes.

At this point, I usually tug on the leash and flat collar and tell her OFF. Sometimes the tug moves her head higher than my foot, and she'll snap at my legs. At this point, I'll be hurting so I try to keep her away from my limbs by holding her collar or leash far away from me, dangling her off the ground slightly. Please judge me lightly on this. I am human, and sometimes her bites bring tears to my eyes so my reflex action is to stop the pain . Then she proceeds to want to jump and bite at my arms, coat, or hand holding leash.

Sometimes I have treats, and I ask her for a sit and do a bit of obedience with her. SOMETIMES this works and it takes her off the fixation of biting me. On walks, I carry her squeeker snake and shove it in her mouth when she gets bitey to facilitate safe street crossing. But I've been doing that for 3 weeks already, and she doesn't seem to get the idea that I prefer her biting snake to biting me.

I've also tried bitter apple, which only works when it's still freshly sprayed and wet. I've tried luring away with toys...no-go. I've tried time-outs in a crate, but she comes out and resumes. I've tried leaving her tied to something when she bites and we're outside and walking away, but she also resumes when I return.

Once she did this when we were working on the gentle leader, I used the gentle leader to try to redirect her focus to my eyes instead of fixating on biting me, and after a few tries, she got more frustrated and bit my legs.

Questions

How can I communicate to her that leg-biting, and the subsequent body biting and snapping is FORBIDDEN?

Is this still puppy behavior? Is this something else?

What kind of training methods do you suggest? I know the idea from the list I posted, distracting with obedience is the BEST one. But stupid me sometimes forgets the treats. In absence of the treats, WHAT else can I try?

My trainer is going to teach me to use a choke collar next Monday to see if it can help with this behavior. Do you think this is a good idea?

Many thanks for plowing through this monster of a post. Virtual cookies and good karma for sympathy, suggestions, and and feedback.

I am really tired but I will just say that it sounds like a really fun game for A. And all of the things you are doing to try to stop her are part of the game. So, you need to create a new game that trumps this leg biting, attention-getting game.

My solution to behaviors like this is to train your dog that carrying a toy is a very important and very fun and self-rewarding job. This is why you will see that every picture of Rafi (when he is awake and moving) includes a ball in his mouth. Rafi is a super drivey guy and without that ball he has a tendency to get into a little trouble but with it he's golden.

It also sounds like A sees you as her playmate. I don't believe in that alpha crap but I do believe in clear and confident leadership. Do you practice NILIF with A? If not, I would start there and build that into every single aspect of your day. Make it super fun but make sure she knows she has to work to get things, no matter how small the thing is.

I imagine that it will take a little while for things to shift in A's brain but once you earn her respect and trust as a leader I would bet you will begin to see a very different puppy.

Finally, on a very basic note: it sounds like she needs a lot more mental and physical exercise.

Thank you for reading my beast of a post and giving me advice.

I do practice NILF in that she must do behavior for food, sits and waits to go out the door, and such. I will give it a better read.

I am trying my best with the mental and physical exercise. Right now she's getting a minimum of a 1 hour walk morning and evening with the evening one usually being closer to 2 hours. During the walks, there's always a leashed walk through neighbourhoods and busy streets, and an off-leash component in a fenced tennis court, soccer field, or park. We reinforce the basics she's learned using structured off-leash play during the evening. I try to keep a log of it every day, and hope it is enough. If you want to take a look and maybe offer some suggestions, I have the details for the last few days posted on my blog for her.

She eats her food from a treat ball and a Nina Ottoson toy, or she eats it scattered in a room.

I take her to a busy place during the walk, whether it be a park with a dog park (so we can stand outside and do LAT), the university campus, downtown, or local park with children.

She does puppy classes once a week. She sees new sights, sounds, and surfaces every day.

I will incorporate NILF more thoroughly into my routine. I don't want to be her playmate. I don't need to be her alpha, but I do want her to look at me if she ever questions the decision she should make.

I would second Ruth on this. I think she sees you as a great playmate. NILIF is a life long endeavor with many dogs and it may be that she is one of them. You have a high drive dog that will need very clear guidelines.

It sounds like she is getting enough exercise but have you thought about brain games? I know she is intended to be a family companion but maybe try tracking with her. Tracking will use her natural abilities and really wear her out mentally. It is not hard, you need no special equipment aside from a sock or glove or something for her to find. You can use a plain old collar and leash, don't even need a harness. It should be fun for her.

I think grabbing her collar, tugging on the leash and collar are just ramping her up and exciting her with opposition reflex. I think the toy in mouth is a great option and it may be that she needs more time to learn this. It may take another month or two to learn this. Habits and behaviors that have been on going for a long time take a longer time to undo.

At 6 months she should have her adult teeth, puppy privilege days are over. If you feel like you have exhausted all your options on this it may be time for a good old fashioned correction. I would recommend a prong instead of a choke. As soon as she goes for your legs or aother appendage, a firm and explosive NO! followed by a sharp correction on the prong may be all it takes. Not my favorite method but if all else fails you have to do what you have to do.

FWIW I found that most of my dogs that did this quit on their own at about 7 to 8 months and all I did was turn into a tree and not move anything. If the toy (us) does not move the game gets boring. I would then scatter kibble on the ground to get the dog's brain off my legs. Then we were able to move forward.

What does the breeder say?

I would recommend a prong instead of a choke. i second that. i dont have time as i am late fro training already. when you had your 2 good days did you through a party when she choose not to bite you?? i think it is key that you reward the heck out of her when she does that. i think you need to always always always need to have treats on you. get a traet bag and always strap it on. i think the biteing you has become habit (and fun). i hope that your trainer cna show you how you can play with your dog is such a way that she will want to engage you in play not your feet and legs. and i know this is hard, you have to make sure you are consistant with this....try to not get mad as i think this often "rewards" the dog, as they are getting you to react and in her mind play....

Turning into a tree was the first thing I tried. I've been wearing 2 layers of pants tucked into snow boots/rain boots to turn into a tree and deter her.

I am meeting with my current trainer next Monday so she can show me how to use a choke chain for correction. Maybe I will also ask to be taught how to properly fit a prong at that time.

My breeder has been really fantastic about this. When I first told her about the problems, she gave me advice over the phone. Then when it seemed like I was out of my depth in handling, she recommended a trusted trainer in my province. Unfortunately, the trainer is 1 hour away from Toronto, so I haven't had the chance to see him yet as I'm in school in Kingston. When I told her about the latest episode, she offered again to take the puppy back, correct her behavior, or send me another puppy that, as you guys both say, perhaps has lower drive. I don't think it's come to that point yet.

Can you mayhaps go into more detail about teaching her how to track? I am a complete novice to dog ownership and can't even teach "find it" or "fetch" completely.

Thank you for your response!

You are very right on the throwing a party. I was deluded into thinking that she "got it" and didn't continue to reinforce. I started reinforcing today when she looked away and didn't bite.

Today asking for an alternate behavior worked, and I rewarded that handsomely.

A month ago, when the problem first surfaced and before she started having a bloody mouth every day from teething, I would pull out the tug whenever she seemed crazy, wait for her to sit and give eye-contact and then engage her. That seemed to work as well. We haven't been tugging since she started teething. I will ask for more assistance on how to better play with her.

This is great advice. Thank you so much guys.

If you know of trainers in Kingston or Toronto that you would recommend I speak to, please do not hesitate to throw them my way either through PM or directly in your post.

I would throw out the choke (why do people still recommend these?????) and I would not go to a prong. A prong (and yes, everyone, I have used them many times) can get a dog more amped up or can hurt the dog if used incorrectly. And both of those options (prong and choke) can hurt your relationship and turn the training in a different direction.

The redirection to a toy will work. It is just going to take some patience. WHen I adopted Rafi he would get so excited (and he was 1.5 years old) he would jump straight into the air and snap in my face. He would grab the leash and drag me all over the place. He would jump up and down in the air and bark and lunge when he saw other dogs. It took 3 weeks of counter-conditioning, LAT and redirection to a toy to get him stop ALL of those behaviors. I never yanked on his collar or yelled at him.

I am off to work right now but will write more later.

Yes a prong can escalate the behavior and amp some dogs up. I do not think a well timed and fair correction will errode a relationship. Constant nagging corrections will. I would rather one good prong correction over nagging on a flat collar or even choke chain.

That said, I would exhaust all other options before trying the prong. If an alternative behavior works go for it, keeping in mind that for any behavor to become habit it will take more than a few days, probably a good month or better.

I always try the path of fewest correctiosn but sometimes they are a neceassry part of life.

Is the biting mostly happening on walks? My first thought when I read about this happening in places like downtown and on campus, and especially crossing busy streets, is that it could be stress related. Maybe these places are too overwhelming for her right now? Many years ago I had a Gordon Setter that couldn't handle a lot of stressful situations and would turn and bite me when he encountered them. How is she when you walk in quiet places, like hiking trials, the woods, etc. Does she do the same?