Ruth, that is a very thoughtful post. I have to come back and respond to it, I have an auditing midterm this evening.

I am so glad I posted about training, you guys have really raised a few questions that I haven't thought of before, and would love the answers to.

When I speak to trainers, it's easy for me to be pushed-over because of my inexperience. Having you guys as a sounding board will really ensure that I can ask the right and tough questions so that I can commit MYSELF 100% to a training method.

I agree with Ruth, it really depends on how YOU want to use the crate. I do think that you *should be able to* crate the dog at any time, but that doesn't mean you have to actually crate the dog all the time to get that result. For example, one of my dogs is not regularly crated at all, but I can still put him in a crate for a few hours if/when I need to, and when we watch movies in the basement he usually goes into Nikon's crate on his own while we're all downstairs. How much crating you need to do and how to do it really depends on the individual dog and your goals.

I think as you learn you will settle on your method. You can only do this through studying, questioning and trying things which is what you are doing.

I was going to PM you about lots of advice but I'll just say it here. Everyone has things that work for them. My way may not be Ruth's way or Val's way. Lies may think I am off the wall or way off base. Everyone has learned through experience what has worked for them so they will give advice based on their experience. It is not wrong, it just may not be the same for everyone and it may not be the best for you and A. This is where you have to apply the litmus test of 1) is it logical, 2) is it humane and fair, 3) can I do it and follow through consistently.

I do train for competition, I have taught classes at several clubs over the years. That does not make me an expert with your dog. What works for me may not work for you and it will change with each dog. When my new pup shows up sometime this year I may also be asking HELP!!! I may face something I have never run across so we are all students here.

Dogs learn by the laws of behavior just like we do. They do what works to get them what they want. The real secret of dog training is figuring out how to work with that. I always joked I would have it all down by my 10th dog until a good trainer/ mentor/friend told me no - won't happen, we just find other mistakes to make. So don't stress over not having the answers or making mistakes. We all make them every day.

I do use a crate but not excessively. I use a crate to manage and contain a puppy when I cannot supervise, and when I am in bed at night, and to provide a safe quiet place to rest. As they get more mature they spend less time in a crate at home, in fact I don't crate at home at all right now. My dogs have crates at home with the doors open and they do use them by their own choice, it is a place for them to den and get some alone time. They do need to crate at dog shows and sometimes at class. But I never crate for more than 2 hours without a break.

Often a dog that is crated after a training session will learn faster as they get to rest and think on what they just learned. So a crate is a good tool to use for that as well.

Whichever trainer you decide on, be consistent with them and you will find your methods will get more organized. You also need to be clear on what you want for the dog. In 6 months you will be a lot different and more confident than you are now.

I also feel like I need to analyze everything. I want to know how and why it works. Sometimes that is good and sometimes not.

Spent 3 hours freezing with the trainer outside today. The verdict?
My relationship with Amaretto SUCKS. My super nerdy, faculty-appropriate analogy is I supply too much love and attention, since her demand for attention is fixed, this oversupply drives down the price of my love and attention. She isn't SEEKING me out, and is not engaged with me. Michael said this could be a result of her lineage...but I really think it's just like I said, supply and demand.

He doesn't want me to adopt formalized methods or prescribe me a set method to follow. He said I would follow his word down to the T instead of recognizing her problems and thinking through them myself to develop an appropriate reaction.

What he has me working on for the next while is, controlling my urge to give pupper attention.

She must seek me out and come to me for affection. I am not to go up to her, not to pet her or talk to her when she her attention is not on me. If we are training, I am not to use treats or frantic movements to "get" her back. I am to let her demonstrate an interest to work with me and be with me on her own.

Some exercises he suggested were going into the yard, and have her wander. Mark and reward when she wanders near my left leg.

Going into a big park with a long line, let her do whatever she wants on the other side of the line, praise and reward when she comes near.

I'm not sure if I should do the crate and give no attention thing, that is certainly in line with what my trainer is preaching.

He's telling you to practice NILIF...I would subscribe to that advice but also get her to engage with me...not on a long line, maybe off line. Have ME be exciting and a great place to be. Your trainer may be shooting down your confidence along with Ameretto's/ not fair.
You do not SUCK as a handler.
But do please make yourself more relaxed and engaged with her.
Screw it if she messes up a bit, no big deal, she's a pup after all.
In two years if you are still in a circular motion, you can consider yourself a failure, now you are just learning/growing with your amazing puppy.

Don't let your trainer tell you different.

Jane has nailed it I think!

With Molly I made so many mistakes and am only just seeing lots of improvement. With Cooper I take treats with me everywhere we go, and ANY time he is next to me (and at this stage I don't care what side)I reward him.

We have been going to the beach lately and you should see the bruises on my legs from him been stuck to me! He almost trips me up as he knows being near me = yummies!

I am not experienced compared to many here but I am happy with his focus at 17 weeks, just my experience.

I think you are probably being way too hard on yourself

Yep, this is plain old NILIF. Your trainer sounds like he may be on to something. I did not know you were giving too much attention and petting her a lot. But you would not have said that if you thought you were.

What your trainer wants to do is make A want to be with you of her choice and is using a very tried and true method to do that - ignore the dog til she comes to you, looks at you, or does something for you. Then her reward is your attention.

Yes.
Plain old NILF. Here I thought I was doing it already by asking for behaviors before I play, but he's right, it's not as superficial as that. I didn't know I was giving her too much attention. I knew I was spending ALOT of time with her, but didn't understand that it undermined my leadership or our relationship.

Day 1 of new training schedule and I feel like CRAP. Feel more incompetent than ever.

She barked in her crate from 7:30 to 12...until my dad finally could not take it anymore and went in to correct her when I was not looking. I had to move her to the expen after that because I could not ask my parents to ignore the barking anymore. She does not bark when left alone in the expen. She also does not bark if crated next to me after her bedtime. My dad said it's becuase she does not understnad barking in crate is wrong, but I'm not sure. THe trainer said it's due to lack of freedom and frustration...but isn't it the same in the expen...then why?? Tomorrow, I will continue crate and ignore when not working with her, but do it during the day. At night, when my parents are approaching bed time, if I cannot go to bed and be next to her yet, I will proactively move her to the expen so she does not get a reinforcement for barking. Does this sound right?

For the relationship building, when we go into the yard together and I let her play...she REALLY plays without coming to me at all. I will continue with this as it's only been a day and the yard is a new new fascinating place to her. I hope it all works out.

For leg biting. Today, because I have been ignoring her almost completely. So naturally, when we went out into the yard, the leg biting is worse than before. I think it's an extinction behavior, like bursts of desperation to try and get my attention more than ever before. I have stopped with the prong at trainer's suggestion. Trainer told me to tough it out. If we are walking and she is biting, i will change directions into her, which is apparently unpleasent. I am worried that me walking while she is biting is reinforcing as it turns into a long tug game for her. The leg biting stops if I walk to the door and get ready to go inside. If I am standing, I will remain standing and not react. She has stopped in this scenario. But this is just day 1, I've emailed the trainer for clarification on if I am doing it right, and will persist to see if it works. I am SO glad its winter, beer+2 sweatpants + rainboots has been the only thin gthat kept me from swearing to high heaven when she lands her bites.

Like everyone said, the problem in this relationship is me. I am too inexperienced, I don'[t have enough intuition and do alot of superficial steps to make myself feel better when it comes to my relationship with the dog. My trainer said that my situation (university student not completely independent to make all of my choices, 0 experience) makes my original decision to get puppy a wrong one. I've questioned my decision a lot, and do have regrets. But I love her, if anything, I am not short on EFFORT to make this work. When do I know that effort and love aren't enough. I've only had her for 2 months, and only started with the new rpgoram for a day...I need to give both of us more time I know...but I feel so crummy and incompetant...:(

Yes the extinction burst is normal and behavior will get worse before it gets better. Ride it out and you will succeed. If you give in and then try again to ignore it the behavior will actually be stronger.

If you move her to the xpen make sure she is quiet before you open the crate door. Leash her and lead her to the xpen without eye contact or other attention, if possible. If you feel like interacting with her ask her to sit first and make eye conatact.

I just wanted to offer you a big One day at a time.