Forgot to mention the other difference there is that Grizz also has not just high SA, but also high defense and a low threshold for it. So he's often expressing reactive aggression as well as active, sometimes one or the other, sometimes both at the same time. And there's a bit of insecurity there at times, which brings out not just the defense but also more of the bully side.

Chris "partly because they enjoy pushing people around, dominating them, getting a rise out of them, "



Ruthie "The "volcanic eruption" is IMO has more to do with the temperament of the dog than the level of threat. I have watched Grizzly "protect" the car and when someone walks away, he actually smiles. He thinks it is great fun. The more noise and ferocious display the more fun it is. He's a jerk"



Now you know why he does this! I knew why he did it but would not have called it SA until today, I would have called it a young dog looking to push his boundaries. But in a dog with SA I now understand they may do this. I have always just told them calmly and firmly "that will do" reward the appropriate response and it eventually goes away. As Chris said you can't give ground with dogs like this. You don't have to be nasty or harsh- just very firm, very fair and very consistent.

The other side to that though is that just like drive, you can't jsut make it go away. Oh, you can try to subdue it and squelch it and prevent the dog from expressing it, but that doesn't work for the long haul. It is a part of the dog and it is always there, and at some point it will come out. If not taught discrimination, and formal training providing the means for the dog to learn to properly channel it and control it can certainly help with that, it can boil over into unwanted circumstances. Things work best when it is given an opportunity to learn what is an appropriate outlet and when it is *not* appropriate.

Hence why I told Amy recently that it's time for her little jerk to start protection. He could use some confidence building in some ways, but the main benefit will be to provide lessons in discrimination to help him learn when it's appropriate, and when it isn't.

Chris I started Havoc in SchH recently, just before Veterans Day in fact. I think you knew that, but I wonder if that could be the reason why his level of suspicion has dropped some? Even my hubby commented that Havoc seems more assured, calm, grown up. Or maybe he just grew up!

He has not made a move to put his mouth on me since then either, nor has he screamed like a banshee over the jumps. Some happy barking but I don't care about that. He does still carry on while waiting for his turn and watching other dogs run. I am stopping to buy a few more pacifiers (balls on ropes) for him to hang on to while other dogs run. Ball in mpouth = no crying, it worked last week but he killed his toy.

It can help. Someone in this thread, or maybe it was the other one, said that SchH gave the dogs a sleeve to target when they're feeling that way. Well, no, that's not what it does.

When done well (and I KNOW Anne can really expound on this if she has the time and inclination) it teaches the dog how to recognize a true threat or challenge, and how to modulate their aggressive response, down as well as up, in response to that.

This is why barking when the helper is neutral (hold and bark) and biting when he flees or attacks. It's not just a simple set of rules of don't bite if he's still, bite when he moves, though to some that is all it is. It is about the dog controlling the situation. Don't need to bite if a bark will do. If a bark doesn't subdue the helper, escalate. If he keeps fighting (in the drive) bite harder until he submits. When he does submit, let go and back off a bit, mission accomplished. It's the dog overpowering the helper, but not going over board and using more than is needed to achieve the desired result.

I am certainly happy work is slow today because I am getting little done!!!

If you notice my first post on the barking in vehicles and my last previous post here.....

We have dogs barking out of control over the top which I find very irritating in the parkng lot at SchH.

We have a dog at agility carrying on with over the top screaming while waiting his turn. (MINE!)

Different drives, different motivations, different scenarios but really - what is the difference? Still somewhat out of control. So my dog is getting a pacifier and the pot should not call the kettle black.

LOL! Yes. This is exactly why I was using this as an example. Not all crate barking is about not being settled. And I can tell you SA does not respond to the same training methods. I have tried. He has settled when I am at the truck, for the most part, but if I am not there, he is gonna raise a ruckus. If I were picking battles, the barking when I am not there would not be one of them. With the noise level being an issue, the bark collar is really the only way to address it. Otherwise, me returning to the truck to correct him is just going to reward the behavior.

Withholding treats if he barks has zero effect because the barking is more fun than the treats. Voice corrections are also not high enough consequence to create behavior change. Not saying that any of your club dogs are in the same situation, probably not. Just saying things aren’t always as simple as they appear.

So… the pushy, butthead behavior is related to the SA, it is just presenting in its immature state?

Trying to keep terminology straight. Is this correct?

Aggression- Assertive behavior. “vigorously energetic, especially in the use of initiative and forcefulness: boldly assertive and forward; pushy:”
• Defense Aggression (DA)- Aggressive behavior or drive to defend against a perceived threat. Reactive. Fear may be cause, but not necessarily.
• Social Aggression (SA)- Aggressive behavior or drive against a non-pack member (human or animal). Offensive. Active aggression. Fear is not the cause.

Protection or Guarding- Behavior to protect territory, possession, person, or self. This can stem from either DA or SA.

Fight- Drive to overcome an opponent. May stem from DA, SA, or prey.

I can't speak for anyone else's dogs, only my own from the bloodlines I have had for what is now decades. However, what is being described in the last few posts, I do not attribute to social aggression. I also do not feel like it is something that will boil over, or however that was put, if it is not channeled . It is in the dog, that is true, and it will not go away. However, as the Armin article described, you can train the dog and control it. This is not about pushing the handler around or trying to bite the handler. I have found it to be QUITE the opposite. I would never describe any of my dogs who I consider to possess this trait as "jerks". All of them were/are exceptionally intuitive and VERY connected/bonded to me. Very willing to do what I ask . Sure, they did act like puppies when they were but I think people are starting to add things to the discussion that don't have anything to do with social aggression. It is the desire to protect territory and their person . That is the simple way to put it. The protective instinct is rooted in social aggression. Normally, maturity makes a rather significant difference in these dogs, along with proper training and management. It is not the other way around where they get "worse" with age, unless they are owned by people who don't know what they are doing and allow the dog to make all the decisions. In that case, just like can happen with other behaviors, it will become how the dog answers what he considers to be a problem but the idea that you have to channel it, I do not agree with. You simply have to train your dog, ( obedience), be a confident and competent handler and clearly and calmly convey to the dog what it is that you expect him to do when there are strangers around. I simply tell my dogs to sit. I expect them to be able to tolerate strangers within a normal talking distance. I do not expect them to tolerate petting or stupid behavior from people...it's that simple.

I got a dog back about a year ago. He was just a young dog, (another thing I have noticed about my socially aggressive dogs, they mature much faster than what most people are used to nowadays), but the people completely mismanaged what was happening with him, even though I tried to help them. He was very protective and they went to all the wrong people for advice, even though they assured me when I sold him that they would ask me about my bloodlines if they needed help. They were told by "SchH trainers", ( and I put that in quotes because although these people do lots of training in the sport they don't really understand GSDs or SchH), the dog would only get WORSE with age. They wanted to blame a famous dog in the pedigree and made comments that seemed to infer the dog would become more dominant with age, even though he showed none of that behavior with his people . None of their advice was directed at the very timid and fearful handling of the owner. That is why I say these people know nothing about German Shepherds, even though they think they do. Seems many people think this way now, where a dog who is aggressive must also be dominant. Also seems there are more of these dogs now than there used to be but having seen a number of them by now, my opinion is this is not social aggression in these dogs, not the in the way I have experienced it anyway.
One of my best puppy clients owns this dog's brother. She saw some of the same things in her dog. However, she was smart enough to ask me how to approach it and came all the way here from Alaska to work with me, even though I didn't really think that was necessary. It was as simple as working him more in obedience , managing him and waiting for more maturity. This dog is currently kicking ass in agility and does herding and AKC obedience as well. He is handled occasionally by the person who owns the sheep and there are no issues there. As my client has told me, he knows when he is working, and when he is, he is. There is no issue with it at all. Just like the others, he is very connected to his handler and very willing to do what she asks. Same intuitiveness with her and exceptionally responsive because he is always listening .

When these dogs get into their third year of age, it becomes something very manageable for the people who are willing to learn about themselves and how much their handling and behavior has an impact with these kinds of dogs . Once the handler knows what to do, and is confident in their handling and in how they convey what they want to the dog, things improve dramatically because the dog feels all of it. Again, these are particularly intuitive dogs because of that bond and connectedness I talked about earlier and they feel what the handler feels. There is no trying to hide your fear or nervousness from these dogs, they know how you feel. So, if you are there with people and acting like a nervous wreck, they will try to handle the situation for you, just like a good GSD should. You simply must be confident and proactive or you can have problems with dogs like this. Not because they are bad dogs with bad intentions but because they live to protect you. I have spent decades trying to teach people how to do this will all kinds of dogs but if you can learn it with one of these, you will be a very good trainer. I have learned more about myself from handling these dogs than in anything else I have done.

Anne, do you expect your dog to obey you when he's told to sit in the presence of strangers, but he perceives danger? Also, will your dog stay behind you when you told him to, and let you step forward and deal with a person that the dog perceives as dangerous (and could be rightfully so)?