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#208876 - 01/27/12 07:41 PM Re: Social Aggression ***** [Re: GSD07]
Vandal Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 39
Likes: 4

Well.......since I try to avoid people like that, I haven't tried it. lol. I have been protected by my dogs when I didn't see it coming though.

I will say this. You don't need to do all this ...er...stuff....people are doing now in SchH protection training with these dogs. You bring them out at about a year of age and they BITE....the sleeve...hard... and fight the helper. No need to teach "targeting" or tug games or any of that other baloney people are claiming is so necessary now. They know how to work in protection because it is in their blood.
_________________________
Anne
www.adlerstein.com

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#208879 - 01/27/12 07:48 PM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Vandal]
Kayos Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 7303
Loc: McAlester, OK
Likes: 53
Excellent posts Anne thank you. I think I am understanding this better and better. Sincere thanks.
_________________________
Kathy

UCD, URO3 Aleshanee Windridge CD, TDX, RE, CGC, TC, HIC "Kayos"
UCD, URO2, UAG1 Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX, GN, RE, CGC, TC, HIC, Bh "Havoc"

Coming soon - Tidmore's Rising Star Lydia "Lydia"

Lucky, Wolf, Max - gone but never forgotten. gsdhalo

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#208908 - 01/27/12 09:06 PM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Kayos]
GSD07 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 230
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Thanks, Anne. I'm asking because my dog will always step forward, or place himself strategically so he can be in between me and a threat in a second when the situation calls. He will break the stay when he perceives danger (someone walking from behind, it happened), he's just there for me. Honestly, I like it but wanted to check if it's a sign of a weak leadership on my part.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject! Very interesting to read everyone's posts, they make me want to go back to actively training...

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#208910 - 01/27/12 09:14 PM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Kayos]
Ruthie Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 990
Loc: Michigan
Likes: 10
Anne, thank you for the long post. There is a lot of good information in there.

With all due respect, your personality is a bit stronger than mine, so what you would label as a “jerk” and what I would label as a “jerk” are probably very different. smile Also, I find humor in exaggeration and find the nickname "jerk" enduring.

Most of the behavior that I would label as “jerk” behavior is normal puppy stuff. I also know there are some other drives and behavior stuff at play too, hense the questions to Chris since she knows Grizzly. However, I think some of the "jerky" behavior is SA, a recent example being a dog interaction. I had my dogs at a location (not a dog park) where I can throw the ball for them and they can run off leash. A friend stopped by with her St. Bernard, Lilli. I was way across the field when she let Lilli out of her vehicle and Grizz was halfway there already. He approached Lilli with very aggressive barking. I called to him and he ignored me. I reached him and corrected him for not obeying. We resumed playing fetch and he kept an eye on her. He returned a couple other times to bully her and I stepped between and corrected him. Then he approached and did a normal doggie sniff greeting and then ignored her.

A couple weeks later, my friend and I went to an outdoor event with our dogs and I had Grizz on a leash when we saw them. He was polite but aloof to Lilli, no posturing, no vocalizing. We met several other dogs with no reaction other than a rude puppy that got a warning growl, but when he approached in a more calm and submissive manner, Grizz allowed it. (Not my choice to let the puppy approach BTW. We were in close quarters.) From what I have read here, I believe his reaction to Lilli was Social Aggression.

Am I mistaken?
_________________________
Amy
Bison (Indo Vom Triton) CGC
Grizzly vom Buchonia
RIP- Moose, Gator, Bear

My Dog/God blog
Reflections on my Dog

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#209085 - 01/28/12 10:41 PM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Ruthie]
Vandal Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 39
Likes: 4
I don't know. Maybe he just didn't want her near his ball. ;-)
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Anne
www.adlerstein.com

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#209094 - 01/29/12 12:22 AM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Vandal]
Ruthie Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 990
Loc: Michigan
Likes: 10
Originally Posted By: Vandal
I don't know. Maybe he just didn't want her near his ball. ;-)


LOL! Absolutely could be true. Though it is Bison that is ball obsessed. Grizzly just likes to run. smile

Started protection work with him today. So educational seeing agression sometimes defensive, and sometimes offense (SA). My first time working a dog using both aggression and prey. My Bison is a beast on the sleeve, but it is all in prey. He wasn't worked when young and he has a extremely high threshold for aggression. Had some great talks with Chris and later with Cliff to debrief what I saw today and how it will look later with maturity. This is going to be a fun ride, but man all my muscles are sore tonight from posting him.

What I was most impressed with is that he was very serious on the field, downright scary (meaning the display, not that I was actually scared, well other than being scared that I was going to fall on my butt and my helper was gonna get bit), yet I get him to the car and he was acting like we had just gone through a stroll in the roses, totally chilled.
_________________________
Amy
Bison (Indo Vom Triton) CGC
Grizzly vom Buchonia
RIP- Moose, Gator, Bear

My Dog/God blog
Reflections on my Dog

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#222583 - 04/02/12 10:37 AM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Ruthie]
FurKids Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 1006
Loc: SE Wisconsin
Likes: 6
Quote:
She stepped off the track, sat her dog, giving the man plenty of space to pass, he slowed down, stared at the dog and Lexi let out one bark. This man began screaming at Ellie about her vicious dog that should be euthanised immediately and he was calling the police. Ellie apologized and got her dog to the car and left quickly. She said she would never go back to that track again. I walk there every week with both dogs and have never had an encounter like that. Guess I have been lucky. We have gotten so PC as a society and have NO tolerance for it, especially in breeds that are bred for it.

She did exactly what I do on sidewalks. I hope you get a chance to tell her that she doesn't have to stay away from a place to walk just because one guy wrongly went off on her. He obviously doesn't know that some dogs don't take kindly to direct eye contact, I'd bet that's a good majority of people. Everyone I've ever mentioned it to has been surprised, never heard of it. Riley would have done more than just bark at the dude! She technically didn't have to apologize, but that to me is more just a human knee-jerk reaction.
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#226998 - 04/24/12 10:20 PM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Vandal]
mjbgsd Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 2297
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Originally Posted By: Vandal
"Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.This form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals."
"It is in the dog, that is true, and it will not go away. However, as the Armin article described, you can train the dog and control it. This is not about pushing the handler around or trying to bite the handler. I have found it to be QUITE the opposite. I would never describe any of my dogs who I consider to possess this trait as "jerks". All of them were/are exceptionally intuitive and VERY connected/bonded to me. Very willing to do what I ask . Sure, they did act like puppies when they were but I think people are starting to add things to the discussion that don't have anything to do with social aggression. It is the desire to protect territory and their person . That is the simple way to put it. The protective instinct is rooted in social aggression. Normally, maturity makes a rather significant difference in these dogs, along with proper training and management....."
"I simply tell my dogs to sit. I expect them to be able to tolerate strangers within a normal talking distance. I do not expect them to tolerate petting or stupid behavior from people...it's that simple.

This right here sounds very much like Akbar. I've never heard of SA, but from what Anne is describing her posts this is like talking about Akbar. I've never been able to describe him but this is like describing him.
There's no fear in this dog, zero. He's so confident in everything he does. He's an awesome dog in every way. <3
Akbar has never nor will ever be a social dog towards strangers, people actually get offended when they ask to pet him and I say no sorry he's not a golden..but you can pet Isa, lol. But the amount of love this dog gives me is so much, the willingness to do whatever for me is astounding. His willingness to please me is amazing.

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#227022 - 04/25/12 01:07 AM Re: Social Aggression [Re: Chris Wild]
Bcannie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
Forgot to mention the other difference there is that Grizz also has not just high SA, but also high defense and a low threshold for it. So he's often expressing reactive aggression as well as active, sometimes one or the other, sometimes both at the same time. And there's a bit of insecurity there at times, which brings out not just the defense but also more of the bully side.


Chris , can you explain more on the difference of reactive aggression vs active in your opinion?

Thanks to all of you for this excellent thread! Your views and explanations are helping me put many of my observations with my own dog into perspective.

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