Kathy mentioned in another thread that she would like to learn more about social aggression. I would too. My Grizzly has a decent dose, so I have had 8 month of exposure. My little evil genius has changed a lot of my preconceived notions on the subject of aggression, but I still have a lot to learn. I know it is probably a broad subject, so let’s start simply.

What is social aggression?
What is the role of social aggression in our breed?
How do you recognize it in a dog?
What is often mistaken as social aggression?
What are the benefits of social aggression?
What are the challenges of social aggression?

Great topic Amy, thanks for starting it off. Waiting for the experts to feed all of us.

This is a topic I would like to learn more about.

I know none of the answers, but would love to learn about it as well.

I too am interested in those questions...

or in keeping with the thread should I say .

For me social aggression is the dog's desire to climb the hierarchical ladder of the pack as well as dominate/threaten outsiders, both canine and human. In other words, social aggression is the inner desire to establish dominance. I have not encountered a dog with strong social aggression yet but I realize that my experience is pretty limited.

Me too. Why can't it be as easy to diagnose dogs as it is humans? I know many who I would like to stick in a crate and let them "bark" by themselves!

OK here is my take:

Social Aggression is the dogs genetically ability to want to defend his territory. It is what gives the dog the ability or drive to want to engage to defend what he deems as his territory. A sign of Social Aggression is a deepness of a growl that turns into a deep bark. I have seen and heard this growl, it almost seems to radiate from the dog warning others of his power. Many times a lesser dog or as seen in wolf pack will tuck his tail and slowly retreat out of the dogs territory. No fighting, no chasing, the lesser dog retreats. When a dog with Social Aggression has given his warning and it is not heeded then he is ready willing and able to engage. Social Aggression is not as it sounds aggressive in social situation that we put our dogs in almost daily. But the bred in ability to want to defend or protect what he deems as his territory.

Nice explanation!

Yes it is!

I thought of this an example when I ws walking Havoc in the dark and drizzle this morning and I was having a hard time seeing cause my glasses were fogging up - is this appropiate social aggression? Is it even social aggression?

Up until about a year ago Havoc would occassionally bark at strange people we passed on our morning walks. Our morning walks were always in the dark and I always called this the 'things go bump in the night syndrome'. Most of us and our dogs too are at hieghtened awareness in the dark, mainly because we don't see as well and I know I am scanning ahead more for loose dogs, cats, rabbits and uneven pavement to trip me up.

We were new to the neighborhood as we had recently moved from Oregon. As we learned the area and recognized the walkers we met he eventually just quit. He scared a few people with the bark but he never lunged or actually threatened, he stood his ground next to and slightly ahead of me and barked 2 or 3 times. I would say "Hav that's enough," and keep walking. Havoc also just does not see as well as he should in the dark. Even when he sees familiar walkers he no longer barks but he still alerts and watches carefully.

A year ago we were at an obedience trial and were coming off the elevator in the hotel and a man charged up to get the elevator invading our space. It was poorly lit, I was still half asleep as it was 5 AM and I had just gotten up to take him out to potty. I did not expect to see anyone and the man literally made me jump. Well you can guess what Havoc did. Same behavior, stood his ground and barked deeply. The man was angry at that and yelled at me. I told him to back off and let me out of the elvator. We walked away and Havoc was quiet but would not take his eyes off the guy. That was the last time he has ever done that too.

This morning we were out walking in the rain, poor visibilty, my glasses fogged and I could not see much. I know it put me on edge as I did not want to trip and fall. We did see our first bunny of the year too! I was certain that if we met another walker out even if it was a familiar one Havoc might bark. I know he would at least alert.

In all these cases Havoc was 'on guard'. He knew I was not as comfortable as I usually am, he knew I was feeling 'different'. So of course he is going to be more on his toes and more defensive.

Is this social aggression? Or is just a dog being overly suspicious? Is it appropriate?

I would say yes, it is appropriate.

i define social aggression as the last two posters - more of a dog to dog (sometimes dog to human perhaps int he case of a dominant dog - like when the dog tries to dominat the master), but a dominant hierarchy type of thing- not something you would experience with someone "out of the circle" so to speak.

my thought is that in kathy's example her dog is being protective of her, in that she was, in these situations, uneasy and not 100% present (as i know i am not at 500am either). we all know how our emotions transfer to our dogs....

I see Protection and Social Aggression a little differently. Protection is a dog who wants to defend himself, his territory or his master. Social Aggression is the willingness to engage and follow through with the warning. We see a lot of dogs that will bark bark bark at a threat, but the Social Aggression that was given at birth isn't there to follow through.

I don't see Dominating their master as true Social Aggression, in most cases I see a dog that is too much for the handler or a dog that was treated unfairly at a young age. A dog with a fair amount of Social Aggression is not going to stand for what he feels are over the top corrections and will absolutely let the handler know that he has over stepped the line of fairness.

Kathy, I find Havoc's behaviors what we expect in a GSD. I like my dogs to be alert to their surroundings. Havoc stood his ground with the dude in the elevator, the question in my mind is if the guy would have escalated to threatening you what would have Havoc done. Does he have enough Social Aggression to engage the threat? Dogs with Social Aggression don't need SchH to teach them to engage, SchH gives the dog a target (sleeve). SchH is a controlled environment for a dog to practice his skill and to blow off some steam.

I think it is probably safe to say that most people have never owned a dog with this trait. Years ago, and I have a couple right now, I owned these kinds of dogs. Those dogs would never DREAM of biting me or anyone in my family, ESPECIALLY children, who, ( as stated in Armin Winkler's article below), they were simply exceptional with. I agree with what he says here because I have experienced it, especially the part in bold font.

I have a certain demeanor with my dogs, they know I am the boss. I could see a dog with this type of temperament taking over if the handler was just a pushover but the dogs who people say view things "unfairly" and challenge their handler over that, I consider to have a problem in temperament. I was plenty unfair way back then and those dogs were quite tolerant of my mistakes and stupid handling.


Social aggression
Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans. As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.

Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.This form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler so that accidents are prevented.

Socially aggressive dogs have an urge to be aggressive towards strangers. This can be controlled and the dog can be taught to tolerate strangers. However, the dog will not become a social or friendly dog with strangers, no matter what type of behavior modification is attempted. The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. (At that point the person is no longer a stranger but an integrated pack member).

The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands. Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts.<end article>
Added Link to article http://siriusdog.com/schutzhund-sport-dogs-winkler4.htm

Anne, I had the pleasure of owning a dog with a high amount of social aggression. As stated in the article posted above, he was very kind and gentle with children, young animals of almost any kind (rats excluded) and women. He wasn't a GSD, but was a mutt mix of St.Bernard and Lab, I believe the Social Aggression came from the St.B as some Social Aggression was needed as flock guardians.

I think that dogs with social aggression can be hampered and frustrated by most of today's training. I believe that it is important to give this dog room to grow and figure out who he is, he needs to have a strong bond with his pack, people, dogs and other critters, he needs to be allowed to bark at the dog in classes that is trying to stare him down, he needs to be allowed to bark at people close to his vehicle. When not allowed to do so, he becomes frustrated. Too much OB and constant corrections will either shut him down or make him very frustrated that he can't find an outlet.

I think I am understanding this more now.

Surprisingly my first GSD, Lucky - an ASL no less- displayed the traits you put in bold. I hated the behavior thinking it unacceptable. No amount of correction would stop it. Finally, an old country vet suggested that she was simply standing her ground to what she saw as an intrusion into her pack and her turf. She never put her mouth on me or anyone in my family. She loved my son, she accepted Joe when we started dating. She accepted anyone that came to the house that we accepted but she was never overly friendly with them. She accepted the neighbors when introduced, she watched their houses like a hawk as that was now an extension of her turf. She would never tolerate a strange dog on her turf NO WAY NO HOW! Thankfully she was not a dog that wanted to dominant anyone. That dear dog patienly tolerated my stupidity.

I think Havoc has this to a degree. He too will not accept a stranger unless I first accept them. He is not misbehaving but he is certainly watching carefully and is not making overtures to them. He has just recently gotten to not wanting a strange dog on his turf. Does not bark in the car unless a strange dog comes up pretty close to it. Does not bark in his crate at shows either. But I think the show grounds is not "his". He is a hard dog for me to handle but he is not looking to climb the corporate ladder either.

Val there is no doubt in my mind that Havoc would follow through. He is the first dog I have had that has made me really think about what situations I put him in. I have no doubt if the guy on the elevator tried to shove past me he would been attacked. Havoc may not have gotten teeth on him as I had him securely leashed but he would have gone forward in a very menacing manner. I think if someone came through my door uninvited they would be sorry. When I make motel reservations I now ask for a first floor room near the exit door to avoid those 0dark30 encounters when I feel unsure or not on top of my game. I was chased in the woods by a stranger when I was 6 years old and I still get unnerved at startling encounters where someone steps out from behind a building in the dark or like the elevator at 5 AM etc. The dog knows this instinctivly. Just two weeks ago I was at a local park waiting for my friend to show up so we could train. The park is not in the best neighborhood in town but has fenced and well lit tennis courts we use. A man came walking directly toward me staring at me. He had long greasy hair and a dirty ball cap and hooded sweatshrit (hood not up)on. As he was walking toward me he asked me if my dog would bite him if he came close. (WTF!!!) As he said this I got very on edge and Havoc was on it. He never barked, but he raised himself as tall as he could,stepped between me and the guy, came up on toes, and was blowing out his flews. I told the man yes the dog would bite if he threatened me, then said the dog was not open to be social as we were training. I turned and heeled Havoc away. Havoc may have been in heel position but he had his head cranked around and never took his eyes off the guy til he guy turned and walked away. When I was breathing again Havoc had turned it off and was calm as could be.

Interesting point and I wonder if I have not frustrated Havoc enough that I have caused some of his drive leaking? In Havoc's case tho it is leaky prey drive not defense.

Unfortunately a dog that barks at other dogs that stared at him gets the bad rap. I think dog people can be some of the worst about this. I just turn my dog away and do not correct it. I had Max in a class way back in 2002. He was jumped from behind, returned fire (rightfully so)and everyone blamed the aggressive GSD. Huh????? Needless to say I was pretty PO'd and so were a few others that saw it. But my point is people see a dog that responds with barking and they think aggressive and vicious.

A lady I know has Dobes, very nice Dobes. I have known Ellie for years, she just arrived here from Korea about 2 months and I knew her previous dogs in Kentucky (yep our career filed keeps us moving and we never say goodby just see you on another assignment). She told me the other day she was walking at the walking track and a man approached her walking the other direction. She stepped off the track, sat her dog, giving the man plenty of space to pass, he slowed down, stared at the dog and Lexi let out one bark. This man began screaming at Ellie about her vicious dog that should be euthanised immediately and he was calling the police. Ellie apologized and got her dog to the car and left quickly. She said she would never go back to that track again. I walk there every week with both dogs and have never had an encounter like that. Guess I have been lucky. We have gotten so PC as a society and have NO tolerance for it, especially in breeds that are bred for it.

Thank you Anne for that great post. As I mentioned in the original post, my Grizzly has this trait which is completely new for me. (I know he has this trait because people smarter than me have told me so. :)) This part of the article struck me and I remember three clear cut examples showing gradual behavior modification. They also show my utter cluelessness, so be kind to me.



1. My friend stopped by to pick me up to go somewhere and I came in as I was finishing getting ready. Grizzly met my friend before, but ran up to her and started barking with his deep threatening bark. I turned to correct him and he was attached to her arm. We still don’t know if it was a purposeful connection or not because she jerked as he jumped, and the skin wasn’t broken. Thinking if he meant to BITE it would have been. I was shocked. Corrected him with the flat collar, slapped his nose, stared him in the face, told him “NO!” and made him sit. He pretty much ignored her after that.

2. A few weeks later, my adult niece came to stay with me overnight. After the incident with my friend, I was a little more prepared. I had Grizz on a leash when she came in. He lunged and barked at her. I corrected, made him sit. This was repeated several times, my hope being that the correction would communicate that he was not to approach her in this manner. After about the 8th time of him lunging and nipping at her, out of desperation I stepped between them and gave Rachel a hug and patted her arm and said in my happiest voice, “Hi Rachel, we love Rachel, she is such a good girl!” Grizzly sat calmly, cocked his head and watched intently. Then he approached and began licking her hand. For the rest of the evening he ignored her other than asking her to throw his ball when we all went out to play fetch.

3. On the third instance Rachel and her parents came to my house. I had my sister call me when they got close to the house. I had Grizz on the prong and greeted them in the front yard. I used my happy, happy voice to greet them. Rachel and my sister had both stayed at my house overnight. He approached, sniffed hands, and then ignored them.

I am sure a handler with more experience could handle this better, but we are plodding along and I am hopeful he is going to “get it”.



Now this comment scares me. LOL! I am NOT an expert. IMO Grizz is also dominant. I have to be very conscious of being the boss. I am not fortunate enough to have that “boss” demeanor naturally like Anne. I am by nature pretty laid back. I have to really watch the message that I am sending. For example, I realized recently that I have been too lenient with letting Grizz load when he goes from crate to door and he at times jumps and nips at me. I had to change my approach from correcting bad behavior to preventing the loading. I have been escorting him by holding his collar as we walk and if he starts to load, I make him sit until he calms. I hope to adjust the drive state.

I have so much to learn.

To a certain extent I really don’t care what idiots think of my dog. However, I do make a concerted effort to educate people whenever possible. I had a service person come to the house and Grizzly barked at him ferociously from his crate. Once I began talking to him Grizzly stopped barking and laid down. The guy said he was looking for a German Shepherd but didn’t want one like mine. I explained to him that he acted completely as he should have in the situation. He barked at the “intruder” coming into the house until he saw that I was ok with him being there then he relaxed. The guy agreed and even asked for breeder recommendations.

Amy, very interesting stories. Havoc has also behaved this way but has never put his mouth on anyone. Once he is introduced he is fine and he has really taken a shine to several of our friends and just squeals with joy when they come to visit, he considers them part of his world. But someone he does not know? Nope! We have taken to putting him in a place where he can see visitors and see us welcome them. Once he has seen us welcome them he is fine and we will introduce him. He is oksy with that and goes to lay in his bed, but he never stops watching them.

You talk about loading and Grizz jumping and nipping. This is what Havoc does in agility. I have begun calling him to heel or side (heel on right)when we finish a run. Everything in his life is about obedience. EVERYTHING!!! I am no push over, I am a type A and I am the queen bitch of Havoc's world but yes he still loads.

I learned something at SchH on Saturday. There is a lady there with a very nice dog, he is half WGSL and half WL, he is a Dryker vom Willendorf son don't know the dam. He has his 3 and was going over the top like Havoc does. The TD kept reminding the handler "control your drive, control your drive" Her response was to stand fast in everything she did and get very calm and in charge, very in charge, with no yelling, no anger, just very in charge.

I think those of us with dogs like this need to sometimes act like the Gestapo.

Yes. A as you mentioned Havoc leaking in prey. Bison does the same. With him I practice zen hleper.

ADDED: With a social dog, they will bark because they are excited about a visitor and a defensive dog will also bark. This agreeaion thing looks different. I am not sure how to explain it.

Sorry about all those typos... My phone is not easy to post from.

Heck I am at work, boring day......

Amy I think I understand you and Griz a bit. You are learning to be a stronger leader, that is good. Griz will learn to trust you IF he sees you and a leader that is stronger than he, that doesn't mean physical, but you need to take the lead, like leading him to the door. He is still young and learning, that means he will be what some people call pushing his boundaries.

I think any high pitched sounds are more prey than any thing else. Raya is high in prey drive, which maybe fine for some people but it is not my favorite trait. I do enjoy her playfulness and her life is fun attitude at times. But I like a more serious dog which is what I think your Griz is, they enjoy life but it is on a different level, not the happy go lucky type dog.

I am not sure what you meant by the high pitched noise mention. In my example, I should have said 'happy voice'. Meaning that I was indicating to him that I was ok with the visitors, happy. Trying to assist him in reading the situation correctly.

I think she was talking about high pitched sounds from Grizz.

Ah... maybe in reference to me saying I dont know how to describe how it looks different?

The high pitched noise I never hear from my dog that had Social Aggression. Most of the time I hear it is from my dogs with higher prey drive OR they are so excited and happy they don't know how to express it.

Thanks for explaining, Val. I really need to stay off the forum from my phone. I get lazy.

I don't know if my dogs have this. Pan certainly not. He's pretty friendly and outgoing. He'll still defer to me but he's not as aloof and watchful as I like in a GSD. Granted, he's not even two years old yet so who knows but considering his pedigree is more of a prey drive/sport pedigree and given how his dam and sire interacted with us, I just don't ever see him being an example of social aggression. He's just such a happy dog and not a dog that takes initiative. The only time I know of that he's shown a negative reaction towards a stranger was when I let my cousins (middle school/high school girls) take him with on a walk at our cottage. They wanted to go out alone and I was in the middle of reading some horrible murder mystery so I told them to take one of my dogs. I wasn't with them but they said he did one of his low warning barks at a stranger.

Nikon....I don't know. In a lot of ways yes but he doesn't really fit the "active" part as much. He does sound a bit more tolerant than what Anne describes, but I'm not sure if his extensive training socialization play a role in that. If left to his own devices I doubt he'd be what he is right now. I always thought his aggression in the context of bitework was more of a reactive type but recently I've been working with a very experienced helper who has been training dogs since SchH first came to the US and I trust very much and he keeps telling me that the dog is strong on his own so I guess I will defer to his judgment. Nikon is extremely aloof, honestly he couldn't care less if my own husband existed. He goes to my husband for meals when I'm out of town and that's about the extent of their relationship. He's appropriately wary of strangers, especially men. Most strangers he will give a low growl and "wfff" and I'll say "OK thanks" and that's it. He has very little tolerance for other dogs especially males and/or any dog close to his age. He is fine with my other dogs and will ignore a few of my friends' dogs in his "space" and will ignore other dogs not in his space when he's otherwise occupied. I can easily have him off leash around pretty much any dog that's not jumping on him but if given the choice he'd probably rather eat another dog than play with it! Of course he's a show line so he has that going against him but from what I've heard his sire is not a dog that messes around. Nikon had one littermate brother than my training director/helper worked with for a while and said was very similar to Nikon, very trainable but did have a raw aggression and raw nerve that made him powerful but disastrous in the wrong hands. That turned out to be true, he was put down already for "temperament issues" but I believe his owners already had a history of having problems with GSDs. I love Nikon, he's maybe as close to my ideal dog as I'll ever get, but I can only imagine what he would be like in different hands. He's never really given me trouble, but I tend to be fairly black and white with my dogs from puppyhood so he's never really had the opportunity to take advantage of me or anyone else. There have been several times I can tell he wants to! We always say he acts like a cranky old dog even though he's only 3. He's kind of an arsehole, well not kind of he really is sometimes!

Re-read the article Anne posted and keyed in on the word "mistrust" in relationship to strangers and the "urge" to be aggressive. This is really a good way to state what I was trying to describe with Grizz barking in the crate. He has the same behavior outside the crate. It is like everyone we meet has the POTENTIAL to be evil and he is really hoping that they are so he can kick their butt. Not fearful. He is quite full of himself. Even as a tiny guy he would choose fight over flight. I really can't wait to see what he grows into. As much as he really stretches me as a handler, he is a ton of fun to work. Protection is going to be a blast.

Pity the helper....

Lol! Caught a glimpse this past week. Bison was limping a bit, so I used his second round to do some blind work with Grizz. Chris was holding the wedge for him to round the blind. Once he got the idea, he was putting up quite a fight. Tim is gonna love it.

I don't think Nikon trusts anyone but me and my sister, and maybe my husband. I think people who don't really know GSDs tend to mistake "aloof" with "fear" or too high of suspicion but I LOVE his aloofness, it makes him so EASY. I can let him out at a huge family gathering and not worry about a thing because he doesn't want to have anything to do with anyone and pretends they don't exist. But I still think that outside of actual protection work, his aggression tends to be more reactive, as in you're never going to see him really explode at someone without a fairly direct threat. He will watch strangers with a wary eye and maybe give a little "wff" under his breath but I've never seen him take the initiative and go off on a stranger without there being a move towards me or the dog first. It's more like he just doesn't give a flying turd if anyone but me exists rather than he seeks out people/dogs to "fight" with (for lack of a better word). He's never ever going to back down and loves to fight but he's not really the dog that's going to pick the fight. He's almost lazy that way. It's more like an "everyone leave me the eff alone" attitude than having something to prove attitude. So I'm not sure what exactly that makes him but probably not strong social aggression? What matters most to me is that he minds me in any situation, and not just because of the obedience and control work we've done but it's a natural compliance that I feel comes from our relationship, and I can trust that he will protect me, himself, and our property in the presence of a threat. The extent to which he is proactive rather than reactive is less important to me.

What about "strange" children?

Having had the priviledge of owning a couple dogs like this, not many but a couple, I can say that strange children have never been a concern. At least not with mine, or with any others I have known. Dogs recognize children. They are neither threat nor challenge, but young to be protected.

One female I have now has a good deal of social aggression. Not an extreme amount, but it is certainly there and she is very protective of property and people.

There are 2 families nearby with young children who frequently take walks down the road on nice summer evenings, often at the same time we're out in our front yard playing with dogs. Both families have been over before to socialize puppies, but aren't frequent enough visitors that the dogs really know them. Since they love our dogs, often if they're walking and see us playing they will turn from the road and come down the driveway asking if the kids can come throw balls for the dogs.

So down the driveway they come, and Raven takes off like a shot barking as soon as they cross the threshold of the road onto our property. When on the road she ignores them, but as soon as they cross the perimeter of our property she responds. But never, ever at the kids who can walk right by and keep approaching (and in fact are often running ahead), but at the adults. Until I tell her it's ok, then the kids get butt wiggles and licks and the adults are watched out of the corner of her eye. She doesn't know the kids anymore than she knows the adults, but she knows they *are* kids.

So the kids throw the ball and she turns into mush with them. The adults are completely ignored. Once last summer, mom left the kids playing while she ran next door to return something to another neighbor. When she returned Raven made it very clear she was NOT getting anywhere near the children without permission. This time it wasn't heading down the driveway barking, but rather stepping about 10 feet in front of the kids, between them and the approaching strange adult, and standing there with a very intense posture and the occasional deep "woof". When I walked up to the kids' mom and escorted her back over to her kids, Ray was fine. But she never would have been able to retrieve her own kids otherwise.

I remember a similar situation when I was a child, playing in the back yard with my cousins. My uncle came out to grab his kids and take them home, and was met by 2 GSDs who were not letting him anywhere near us until my own mom came over and escorted him through the GSD fence between him and the kids.

This sort of attitude about children, and puppies, has been pretty typical in my experience both with the couple of dogs like this I have owned and the few others I've known.

This is rather long but I found it on petwebmed. This is kind of what I always thought social aggression was and it is neither good nor bad. This defines it more as a trait that one would see in a dog of higher social status or more dominant dog to use the less PC term.

Can you experts (complimenatry term not sarcastic at all ) (Chris, Vandal, Cliff) explain this in relation to the GSD and in reference to guarding, protection and defense against threat? I am just not making the connection between this and say... barking in vehicles or this article is just more general across the board considering many breeds. Don't even know if I articulated that well at all.

I know in my dogs I do things to condition them to accept hand on collar, taking food bowl as well as some other things listed on this article.

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Social Aggression
Animals who live in social groups, like people and dogs, typically live by certain rules in order to minimize conflict between group members. Canid species, including the dog, adopt a type of hierarchical order that influences which group members get first crack at food, the best resting spots and opportunities to mate. So rather than having to fight for access to valued things each and every time, those lower down on the totem pole know to wait until the higher-ups have had their share before taking their turn. These ordered relationships are frequently reinforced by displays of ritualized aggression. Individuals of high status use aggressive threats to remind the others of their place in the pack. The relationships between people and dogs who live together are certainly more complex than this simplified description, but it’s still important to know that a dog who perceives herself as high in status may show aggression toward family members. (This kind of behavior is sometimes called dominance or status-seeking aggression.) This is why a dog might be perfectly trustworthy with one pet parent but react aggressively toward the other or toward young children in the family. Such dogs are often described as “Jekyll and Hyde” because, most of the time, they’re happy-go-lucky, friendly dogs. But if they feel that someone in the pack has overstepped his or her bounds, these dogs can quickly resort to aggression. An aggressive response is usually provoked by things that a dog perceives as threatening or unpleasant, such as:
• Taking food away
• Taking a chew bone, toy or stolen object away
• Disturbing the dog while she’s sleeping
• Physically moving the dog while she’s resting
• Hugging or kissing the dog
• Bending or reaching over the dog
• Manipulating the dog into a submissive posture (a down or a belly-up position)
• Lifting or trying to pick up the dog
• Holding the dog back from something she wants
• Grooming, bathing, towelling or wiping the dog’s face
• Touching the dog’s ears or feet
• Trimming the dog’s nails
• Jerking or pulling on the dog’s leash, handling her collar or putting on a harness
• Verbally scolding the dog
• Threatening the dog with a pointed finger or rolled-up newspaper
• Hitting or trying to hit the dog
• Going through a door at same time as the dog or bumping into the dog
Social aggression is somewhat more common in males than in females and more common in purebreds than in mixed breeds. Puppies are rarely socially aggressive with people, but they can be with other dogs, particularly littermates. Social aggression usually develops in dogs between one to three years of age.

It’s important to realize that the complexities involved in social aggression are poorly understood and hotly debated by behavior experts. Some believe that all social aggression is rooted in fear and anxiety, while others believe that it’s motivated by anger and the desire for control. When consulting a professional, make sure you’re comfortable with her treatment recommendations. If the professional’s suggestions consist of techniques for instilling fear and respect in your dog, such as alpha rolls, scruff shakes and hanging, there’s a very good chance that your dog will get worse rather than better-and you might get bitten in the process. Punishment may be appropriate, but only when it’s well planned and limited in application. The judicious use of punishment should always be embedded in a program that’s based on positive reinforcement and trust.

^^^ That article seems to be describing a dominant dog. Dominance and social aggression are not the same thing. They are often found in the same dog, yes, but not always. Social aggression is applied to outsiders. Those outside the "pack". Dominance as it is being described in this article is referring to interactions within the "pack". Two very different things.

And very often dominant acting dogs (and I'd include most of those behaviors listed in the article as being in this category) are not acting that way because they are truly strong, dominant dogs at their core. Rather, they are insecure bullies taking advantage of percieved weakness, or they are simply confused as to their place in the family because they are lacking proper leadership.

Thanks Chris, that was my thought as well. In trying to understand social aggression as it refers to the previous discussions here and then reading this article, I thouhgt "'wwhhhaaaatttttt????' This is 'dominance theory' and resource guarding and general butthead or fearful dog with weak handler". They also infer that "social aggression" is most likely fear based and not a dog acting out of confidence and defense.

When you guys kept saying social aggression I kept seeing the above in my head and thinking I don't want a dog like that. I think the more I understand this and you guys describe this, I have always understood it but not called it 'social aggression' I have called it terms like, aloof, standoffish, not making indiscrimante friendships, not making overtures to strangers, suspicious of strangers, protective of home and flock, territorial, good with children etc.

Basically all that temperament stuff in the breed standard.

I don't time to comment right now but I will simply say this. In my experience, some of the WORST advice about animals I have ever heard, has come from "animal behaviorists". That article is just one example. Mostly, these are people who know nothing about aggression and have very little hands on experience handling aggressive breeds and most certainly not in protection training.
There is a dog who boards here who is a victim of a so called "behaviorist". Her owner was told that the dog is not protective of the wife or home because dogs have no concept of those things. She is now on prozac to treat what is really, in fact, normal behavior. There is nothing wrong with that dog other than owners who are gullible and irresponsible. It is disgusting to me. Just like people who have children who act like children and are diagnosed with ADD and consequently drugged, so the parents, don't have to be PARENTS.

This is an awesome discussion, thank you to all who are participating!!!!

You can add my dog to the mix. He's great with puppies of all breeds and small children, even though I don't allow unknown children to approach him without parents permission (in the park, not in our neighborhood). If someone wants to sneak into our house they need to send a child

Chris, don't you think that a dog without social aggression is not going to be dominant inside of the pack?

No, I don't think they necessarily go hand in hand at all.

As far as dominant behavior on a dog's part goes, I would say that 99% of the time this is a problem with the people, not the dog. And almost as often, it's with a dog who doesn't have a truly dominant presonality or much SA. The dog is insecure (and thus being a bully), or confused, or both. So strong is a dog's need for knowing the heirarchy that very often a dog who doesn't have a dominant personality, who does not want to be in charge, will try to take charge simply because as far as the dog can see no one else is. He doesn't really want to be in charge, but someone needs to be and he needs to know who, so he'll take that role because to the dog it is preferable to living in a state of confusion. Lack of leadership is very stressful to a dog. So no, dominant behavior doesn't necessarily mean the dog has a dominant personality or a lot of SA.

Likewise, a dog with SA isn't necessarily going to be dominant within the family. Not so long as he has clear, fair, consistent (and I don't mean harsh) leadership. The dogs I've had with this had no trouble accepting leadership if it was given to them. There might be a bit of testing when the dog hits the teenage stage, more than with a dog who doesn't have SA. But basically if their people act like confident, assertive leaders they are accepted as such. If the people are pansies, well, yeah then there will be problems. But those problems can exist with a dog who doesn't have SA.

The most socially aggressive dog we've ever had was Kaiser's sire, Ron. Ron was a LOT of dog. And had also spent the first several years of his life going from handler to handler, having the snot kicked out of him to "show him who's boss", being teased and tormented over food and toys to make him "more aggressive", to the point where he'd bitten several people, and trusted no one. We never had a problem with him once he settled in and got to know us and came to trust us. We treated him fairly, but he was also given solid leadership. When that leadership came in the form of someone who wasn't a dictatorial jerk who liked to yank him around and push his buttons to get a reaction, he accepted it without a fuss. Tremendous SA in this dog, very strong physically and mentally, very serious, and very, very protective. But absolutely no dominant behavior toward us whatsoever once things were established. And it didn't take any of those get into a fight with the dog and make sure you win things to establish it, he was allowed on the bed and the couch because we like it, went out the door first and ate first because it's more convenient for us that way, and all of those other "no no's" too.

Wait...I am I reading this wrong? Are you saying that you DONT agree with the article you posted?

I believe Anne is saying she does not agree with the second article on dominance theory that Kathy posted.

Chris, thank you for the post on dominance. I was going to ask about this, but wasn't sure how to formulate the quesiton. With your explanation, I am going to withdrawl my previous assessment of Grizz being dominant. I think he is more dominant than Bison, but I would not label him as "dominant". I think what I am seeing is the teenage testing that you described.

I know we can talk more in person, but for the sake of those following the discussion here...

What is that pushy component that I see in Grizz? That something that I affectionately refer to as "Jerk". I don't see that in Ray as much, but I do in the one female offspring at our club (which I will leave nameless here, but I am sure you know who I am talking about) Is that just adolesence? Is there a connection to the social aggression?

Also wanted to chime in on the kid thing. Grizz has had very little interaction with children, but he does treat them differently. We had a girl come up to meet him when he was playing ball and he tried to go home with her. LOL That is extremely odd for this dog. He actually gets upset with and very suspicious of people who hold him for me to do recalls. For him to go with a stranger is very odd. He did woof at a child once, but I think that was more of a "Holy Crap, what is that?" Once he cued from me that she was ok, he was fine. Took treats from here and everything. Wagged his tail...

Ahhh!!! Missed that. See what happens when you jump in for 5 minutes at lunch... on my phone again.

Stay off that phone!!!

Yes I posted an article about social aggression that explainied what I always thought SA was. It is not the SA referred here I now understand. Totally different. Understanding this I now have no problem with social aggression as it relates to a GSD (or probably any breed of dog).

Amy interestingly, Havoc hates for someone else to hold his leash too. My sister and her family came down for Thanksgiving and we all took a walk after dinner. That day was the first time Havoc let my nephew hold his leash. Caleb was thrilled. Havoc had also been very suspicious of Caleb for a long time. He would not go near him and Caleb really wanted to play with him. Out the blue Havoc is letting Caleb play with him. They came down day after Christmas too and Havoc was begging Caleb to go out and play with him.

Havoc has always been suspicious of kids. We think because our neighbor kids in Oregon would lean over the fence and throw things in the yard when he was a puppy. Did not matter we were with him in the yard it still happened and it took several "discussions" with parents to get it to stop. I guess in Havoc's puppy eyes these small human faces are hanging over the 6 ft privacy fence (they stood on a trampoline) throwing things at him and and scaring or threatening him. A year later he saw the same kid at a ball game (they had moved thank goodness) and he errupted at her. It scared the crap out of me. It generalized to all kids. We kept working on it and it seems to have gone away now, he is still watchful of them but also now makes overtures to them. I think that was why he was suspicious of my nephew for so long, did not know him well.

You didn't know Ray at 1-2 years old. Then she matured, got more training and life experience to know when it was appropriate and when it isn't. She's still pushy at times, even with us though not in a nasty or really disrespectful way, but she outgrew being a jerk. And she was never as bad as a lot of boys. Most girls aren't.

One way to think of SA in terms that humans seem to relate to is to think of the strong type A, CEO of a multi-billion dollar company type personality. Pushy, in your face, assertive, even to the point of aggressive, no? These are the types of people who go out and conquer, and then retain and defend what is theirs. These sort of dogs are much the same... they're that CEO type personality of the dog world.

And yup, they can be jerks when young. Partly because they need to test the boundaries, partly because they think if they push the boundaries to get what they want those boundaries might yield (and especially if they've succeeded with that in the past and the handler backed down) and partly because they enjoy pushing people around, dominating them, getting a rise out of them, overpowering them, etc... They just need those boundaries well set and fairly and confidently enforced and guidance on when they can act on their impulse to push others around and when they can't. And a good dose of mental maturity sure helps too.

Forgot to mention the other difference there is that Grizz also has not just high SA, but also high defense and a low threshold for it. So he's often expressing reactive aggression as well as active, sometimes one or the other, sometimes both at the same time. And there's a bit of insecurity there at times, which brings out not just the defense but also more of the bully side.

Chris "partly because they enjoy pushing people around, dominating them, getting a rise out of them, "



Ruthie "The "volcanic eruption" is IMO has more to do with the temperament of the dog than the level of threat. I have watched Grizzly "protect" the car and when someone walks away, he actually smiles. He thinks it is great fun. The more noise and ferocious display the more fun it is. He's a jerk"



Now you know why he does this! I knew why he did it but would not have called it SA until today, I would have called it a young dog looking to push his boundaries. But in a dog with SA I now understand they may do this. I have always just told them calmly and firmly "that will do" reward the appropriate response and it eventually goes away. As Chris said you can't give ground with dogs like this. You don't have to be nasty or harsh- just very firm, very fair and very consistent.

The other side to that though is that just like drive, you can't jsut make it go away. Oh, you can try to subdue it and squelch it and prevent the dog from expressing it, but that doesn't work for the long haul. It is a part of the dog and it is always there, and at some point it will come out. If not taught discrimination, and formal training providing the means for the dog to learn to properly channel it and control it can certainly help with that, it can boil over into unwanted circumstances. Things work best when it is given an opportunity to learn what is an appropriate outlet and when it is *not* appropriate.

Hence why I told Amy recently that it's time for her little jerk to start protection. He could use some confidence building in some ways, but the main benefit will be to provide lessons in discrimination to help him learn when it's appropriate, and when it isn't.

Chris I started Havoc in SchH recently, just before Veterans Day in fact. I think you knew that, but I wonder if that could be the reason why his level of suspicion has dropped some? Even my hubby commented that Havoc seems more assured, calm, grown up. Or maybe he just grew up!

He has not made a move to put his mouth on me since then either, nor has he screamed like a banshee over the jumps. Some happy barking but I don't care about that. He does still carry on while waiting for his turn and watching other dogs run. I am stopping to buy a few more pacifiers (balls on ropes) for him to hang on to while other dogs run. Ball in mpouth = no crying, it worked last week but he killed his toy.

It can help. Someone in this thread, or maybe it was the other one, said that SchH gave the dogs a sleeve to target when they're feeling that way. Well, no, that's not what it does.

When done well (and I KNOW Anne can really expound on this if she has the time and inclination) it teaches the dog how to recognize a true threat or challenge, and how to modulate their aggressive response, down as well as up, in response to that.

This is why barking when the helper is neutral (hold and bark) and biting when he flees or attacks. It's not just a simple set of rules of don't bite if he's still, bite when he moves, though to some that is all it is. It is about the dog controlling the situation. Don't need to bite if a bark will do. If a bark doesn't subdue the helper, escalate. If he keeps fighting (in the drive) bite harder until he submits. When he does submit, let go and back off a bit, mission accomplished. It's the dog overpowering the helper, but not going over board and using more than is needed to achieve the desired result.

I am certainly happy work is slow today because I am getting little done!!!

If you notice my first post on the barking in vehicles and my last previous post here.....

We have dogs barking out of control over the top which I find very irritating in the parkng lot at SchH.

We have a dog at agility carrying on with over the top screaming while waiting his turn. (MINE!)

Different drives, different motivations, different scenarios but really - what is the difference? Still somewhat out of control. So my dog is getting a pacifier and the pot should not call the kettle black.

LOL! Yes. This is exactly why I was using this as an example. Not all crate barking is about not being settled. And I can tell you SA does not respond to the same training methods. I have tried. He has settled when I am at the truck, for the most part, but if I am not there, he is gonna raise a ruckus. If I were picking battles, the barking when I am not there would not be one of them. With the noise level being an issue, the bark collar is really the only way to address it. Otherwise, me returning to the truck to correct him is just going to reward the behavior.

Withholding treats if he barks has zero effect because the barking is more fun than the treats. Voice corrections are also not high enough consequence to create behavior change. Not saying that any of your club dogs are in the same situation, probably not. Just saying things aren’t always as simple as they appear.

So… the pushy, butthead behavior is related to the SA, it is just presenting in its immature state?

Trying to keep terminology straight. Is this correct?

Aggression- Assertive behavior. “vigorously energetic, especially in the use of initiative and forcefulness: boldly assertive and forward; pushy:”
• Defense Aggression (DA)- Aggressive behavior or drive to defend against a perceived threat. Reactive. Fear may be cause, but not necessarily.
• Social Aggression (SA)- Aggressive behavior or drive against a non-pack member (human or animal). Offensive. Active aggression. Fear is not the cause.

Protection or Guarding- Behavior to protect territory, possession, person, or self. This can stem from either DA or SA.

Fight- Drive to overcome an opponent. May stem from DA, SA, or prey.

I can't speak for anyone else's dogs, only my own from the bloodlines I have had for what is now decades. However, what is being described in the last few posts, I do not attribute to social aggression. I also do not feel like it is something that will boil over, or however that was put, if it is not channeled . It is in the dog, that is true, and it will not go away. However, as the Armin article described, you can train the dog and control it. This is not about pushing the handler around or trying to bite the handler. I have found it to be QUITE the opposite. I would never describe any of my dogs who I consider to possess this trait as "jerks". All of them were/are exceptionally intuitive and VERY connected/bonded to me. Very willing to do what I ask . Sure, they did act like puppies when they were but I think people are starting to add things to the discussion that don't have anything to do with social aggression. It is the desire to protect territory and their person . That is the simple way to put it. The protective instinct is rooted in social aggression. Normally, maturity makes a rather significant difference in these dogs, along with proper training and management. It is not the other way around where they get "worse" with age, unless they are owned by people who don't know what they are doing and allow the dog to make all the decisions. In that case, just like can happen with other behaviors, it will become how the dog answers what he considers to be a problem but the idea that you have to channel it, I do not agree with. You simply have to train your dog, ( obedience), be a confident and competent handler and clearly and calmly convey to the dog what it is that you expect him to do when there are strangers around. I simply tell my dogs to sit. I expect them to be able to tolerate strangers within a normal talking distance. I do not expect them to tolerate petting or stupid behavior from people...it's that simple.

I got a dog back about a year ago. He was just a young dog, (another thing I have noticed about my socially aggressive dogs, they mature much faster than what most people are used to nowadays), but the people completely mismanaged what was happening with him, even though I tried to help them. He was very protective and they went to all the wrong people for advice, even though they assured me when I sold him that they would ask me about my bloodlines if they needed help. They were told by "SchH trainers", ( and I put that in quotes because although these people do lots of training in the sport they don't really understand GSDs or SchH), the dog would only get WORSE with age. They wanted to blame a famous dog in the pedigree and made comments that seemed to infer the dog would become more dominant with age, even though he showed none of that behavior with his people . None of their advice was directed at the very timid and fearful handling of the owner. That is why I say these people know nothing about German Shepherds, even though they think they do. Seems many people think this way now, where a dog who is aggressive must also be dominant. Also seems there are more of these dogs now than there used to be but having seen a number of them by now, my opinion is this is not social aggression in these dogs, not the in the way I have experienced it anyway.
One of my best puppy clients owns this dog's brother. She saw some of the same things in her dog. However, she was smart enough to ask me how to approach it and came all the way here from Alaska to work with me, even though I didn't really think that was necessary. It was as simple as working him more in obedience , managing him and waiting for more maturity. This dog is currently kicking ass in agility and does herding and AKC obedience as well. He is handled occasionally by the person who owns the sheep and there are no issues there. As my client has told me, he knows when he is working, and when he is, he is. There is no issue with it at all. Just like the others, he is very connected to his handler and very willing to do what she asks. Same intuitiveness with her and exceptionally responsive because he is always listening .

When these dogs get into their third year of age, it becomes something very manageable for the people who are willing to learn about themselves and how much their handling and behavior has an impact with these kinds of dogs . Once the handler knows what to do, and is confident in their handling and in how they convey what they want to the dog, things improve dramatically because the dog feels all of it. Again, these are particularly intuitive dogs because of that bond and connectedness I talked about earlier and they feel what the handler feels. There is no trying to hide your fear or nervousness from these dogs, they know how you feel. So, if you are there with people and acting like a nervous wreck, they will try to handle the situation for you, just like a good GSD should. You simply must be confident and proactive or you can have problems with dogs like this. Not because they are bad dogs with bad intentions but because they live to protect you. I have spent decades trying to teach people how to do this will all kinds of dogs but if you can learn it with one of these, you will be a very good trainer. I have learned more about myself from handling these dogs than in anything else I have done.

Anne, do you expect your dog to obey you when he's told to sit in the presence of strangers, but he perceives danger? Also, will your dog stay behind you when you told him to, and let you step forward and deal with a person that the dog perceives as dangerous (and could be rightfully so)?

Well.......since I try to avoid people like that, I haven't tried it. lol. I have been protected by my dogs when I didn't see it coming though.

I will say this. You don't need to do all this ...er...stuff....people are doing now in SchH protection training with these dogs. You bring them out at about a year of age and they BITE....the sleeve...hard... and fight the helper. No need to teach "targeting" or tug games or any of that other baloney people are claiming is so necessary now. They know how to work in protection because it is in their blood.

Excellent posts Anne thank you. I think I am understanding this better and better. Sincere thanks.

Thanks, Anne. I'm asking because my dog will always step forward, or place himself strategically so he can be in between me and a threat in a second when the situation calls. He will break the stay when he perceives danger (someone walking from behind, it happened), he's just there for me. Honestly, I like it but wanted to check if it's a sign of a weak leadership on my part.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject! Very interesting to read everyone's posts, they make me want to go back to actively training...

Anne, thank you for the long post. There is a lot of good information in there.

With all due respect, your personality is a bit stronger than mine, so what you would label as a “jerk” and what I would label as a “jerk” are probably very different. Also, I find humor in exaggeration and find the nickname "jerk" enduring.

Most of the behavior that I would label as “jerk” behavior is normal puppy stuff. I also know there are some other drives and behavior stuff at play too, hense the questions to Chris since she knows Grizzly. However, I think some of the "jerky" behavior is SA, a recent example being a dog interaction. I had my dogs at a location (not a dog park) where I can throw the ball for them and they can run off leash. A friend stopped by with her St. Bernard, Lilli. I was way across the field when she let Lilli out of her vehicle and Grizz was halfway there already. He approached Lilli with very aggressive barking. I called to him and he ignored me. I reached him and corrected him for not obeying. We resumed playing fetch and he kept an eye on her. He returned a couple other times to bully her and I stepped between and corrected him. Then he approached and did a normal doggie sniff greeting and then ignored her.

A couple weeks later, my friend and I went to an outdoor event with our dogs and I had Grizz on a leash when we saw them. He was polite but aloof to Lilli, no posturing, no vocalizing. We met several other dogs with no reaction other than a rude puppy that got a warning growl, but when he approached in a more calm and submissive manner, Grizz allowed it. (Not my choice to let the puppy approach BTW. We were in close quarters.) From what I have read here, I believe his reaction to Lilli was Social Aggression.

Am I mistaken?

I don't know. Maybe he just didn't want her near his ball. ;-)

LOL! Absolutely could be true. Though it is Bison that is ball obsessed. Grizzly just likes to run.

Started protection work with him today. So educational seeing agression sometimes defensive, and sometimes offense (SA). My first time working a dog using both aggression and prey. My Bison is a beast on the sleeve, but it is all in prey. He wasn't worked when young and he has a extremely high threshold for aggression. Had some great talks with Chris and later with Cliff to debrief what I saw today and how it will look later with maturity. This is going to be a fun ride, but man all my muscles are sore tonight from posting him.

What I was most impressed with is that he was very serious on the field, downright scary (meaning the display, not that I was actually scared, well other than being scared that I was going to fall on my butt and my helper was gonna get bit), yet I get him to the car and he was acting like we had just gone through a stroll in the roses, totally chilled.

She did exactly what I do on sidewalks. I hope you get a chance to tell her that she doesn't have to stay away from a place to walk just because one guy wrongly went off on her. He obviously doesn't know that some dogs don't take kindly to direct eye contact, I'd bet that's a good majority of people. Everyone I've ever mentioned it to has been surprised, never heard of it. Riley would have done more than just bark at the dude! She technically didn't have to apologize, but that to me is more just a human knee-jerk reaction.

This right here sounds very much like Akbar. I've never heard of SA, but from what Anne is describing her posts this is like talking about Akbar. I've never been able to describe him but this is like describing him.
There's no fear in this dog, zero. He's so confident in everything he does. He's an awesome dog in every way. <3
Akbar has never nor will ever be a social dog towards strangers, people actually get offended when they ask to pet him and I say no sorry he's not a golden..but you can pet Isa, lol. But the amount of love this dog gives me is so much, the willingness to do whatever for me is astounding. His willingness to please me is amazing.

Chris , can you explain more on the difference of reactive aggression vs active in your opinion?

Thanks to all of you for this excellent thread! Your views and explanations are helping me put many of my observations with my own dog into perspective.