I have put this off long enough & now I sometimes don’t like my own dog…

Long story short: We adopted Ziva from a local Rescue in August 2010. About 18 months old. Skinny & scars from previous encounters with humans. Rescue said she walked well on a leash-WRONG. She drug my fatbutt across a damp lawn like I was water-skiing. They said she was good with cats-WRONG. We have (4) & she’d lunge & bark at the top of her lungs at them. Found out later that she was well-behaved at the 1st house visit because they had her on so many Benadryls... First mistake was a Board&Train. We didn’t know about them at that time. Waste of her time & our $$. Next tried a private trainer – didn’t like her use of a prong collar & yanking the dog from a ‘Stand’ to a ‘Down’ with the prongs. Tried an e-collar, but her response was so dramatic that we “assumed” it was too harsh for her. (We have since learned she should get an Oscar for her acting ability.)

We spent the next few months with no (formal) training – just basic stuff at home. Allowed time for her to heal & to bond. Worked with her using treats because everyone was against the old choke collar/leather leash way of training.

Now she won’t do ANYthing unless there’s a treat involved. With treats, her obedience is about 98-99%. Without treats, she yawns at a command, or looks away, or makes 100 circles before going to the down. Started this darn air-snapping last summer & sometimes it has gone to snapping at me. Not funny & won’t be tolerated. At a suggestion, we had blood work done on her, including full thyroid panel. Rule out anything physical. After a few hundred dollars, the vet diagnosed her: “Brat-itis”, “Terrible Two’s”.

Ex: She goes to work with us, riding in the back seat. When told to ‘Down’ – in a normal voice – she turns around & looks out the back glass. Or yawns. If our voice is raised, she’ll ‘down’. At work, she’s in a crate (because she won’t stay in 1 area). At lunch, she gets 20-30 minutes outside. Back in the crate for 3 ½ hours. We have a large warehouse: after work, she runs & plays & goes up & down the stairs for at least an hour. Tires her out pretty well. On the weekends at home, she goes to a park where she romps at the end of a 20’ lead.

She was my gift to myself after conquering cancer in 2009. Guess I didn’t wait long enough: the cancer returned last Aug – AFTER her behaviors started (so that no one misunderstands & blames the changes at home for her bratty behaviors). My chemo is on Sat’s, but I still go to work Tues-Fri. Her routine hasn’t changed. Her food hasn’t changed (Taste of the Wild + Natural Balance Synergy)

Only her behaviors have changed & I don’t like it. She shows no respect. Jumps at back door & onto people – she KNOWS better. Finally accepted the cats, but still charges thru the house like a wild horse. During 1 of her charges, she mis-stepped onto my crippled cat Oliver. I swear I wanted to smack her – I protect that 15-yr-old cat to the “Nth” degree. I grabbed her short lead & led her to the wall with my legs, all while telling her “no cat” & “down”. Air-popping began. She truly reminds me of a nephew who, at the age of 4, was the Biggest Brat of the Century. (come to think of it – HE bit, too!)

Never thought I’d say this – but I’d like input on the most reliable e-collar you guys know. I’m looking for something to elicit a quick response, so we’re not repeating ourselves with the commands she fully knows. Or to get thru to her when she’s in a place where we can’t reach her collar. (back seat of truck, in her crate, when she’s outside & jumping at the slider doors, etc)

Simply because she knows the basics, I don’t think it would take that long to teach her that she simply has to do what she’s told.

This is way longer than I wanted - Sorry! I know we've made mistakes. I know we have a fabulous dog-in-the-making. But I'm not good around brats (humans or dogs) & I'm darn sure not in the mood to be snapped at.

Help!?!

Thanks - in advance.

PS - forgot 1 more behavior --- now she's eating her poop again (hasn't done that for over a year). Pineapple added to her diet has done nothing to stop it.

I like dogtra. Their customer service is great!

E collar is good if used properly.

Do you have someone to help you learn to use it?

If not, try looking at loucastle.com. He'll most likely call you back if you call him.

As for collars, don't go "economy.". Look at the Dogtra collars that have both tone and Variable stimulation levels.

There is an ecollar forum, http://www.modernecollartraining.com/ , where you can ask questions.

It's not magic though. Get some help learning about it.

Good luck.

Hmmm. Honestly, I don't think that what you want to use the e-collar for is maybe the best application. And if you decide to use it, definitely get some pretty intensive lessons from people who know how to use it correctly. Most of the times when I have seen people with your types of issues with their dog is just turns into a zap fest. Not saying this is what you'd do, but it's easy to get into that habit when you are correcting mostly "house behavior" type issues.

One thing you might want to look into is starting crate games with her. It sounds like one of the biggest issues is impulse control, which the e-collar really isn't going to help with.

Also, giving her a good mental workout might help as well. From the routine you described it really doesn't sound like she's getting a lot to work her mind out. If you have a warehouse, the first thing that comes to mine is nosework.....teach her to go find people, toys, food--anything.

If she's back to eating her stools, I would look to medical reasons for that, and food issues can make behaviours worse. Her actions don't sound medical in nature, but there could be a compnent there.

I wouldn't use an e-collar without working with a professional, you can really mess up a messed up dog if not used properly. I believe that GSDElsa has experience and uses the e-collar, and what she said makes sense to me.

I see that your chemo is on Sat, which means you can't go to Leah's classes. Or maybe you tried her and it didn't work out.

I understand your frustrations, been there.

Tell us what she does right?

Maxa - my chemo runs 2 Sat. Then off the 3rd, back on for 2, etc... Melissa said it probably couldn't work until the chemo's done (which HOPEFULLY will be Feb 4). But, & I am having some serious problems with my own thoughts on these e-collars - I really don't want treat-training at this point. Because now that's the only time Ziva works correctly. And Leah is reward/treat-based training.

In the "old days" hahahaha, we used correction-based training & the only equipment were a choke chain & lead. If I could easily train a goofy Irish Setter well enough to get him 3 legs on his Obedience, I think I'd rather go back to that.

With this dog, I have over 2 dozen books, leads of all types, choke collar, spike collar, martindale, + 2 types of harnesses & a Gentle Leader. 3 different types of treat pouches. To be honest, I wish I could find a cattle prod. (Just kidding - don't want people screaming at me).

Oh - AGAIN spent $$ looking for a health-related issue concerning her turd-eating. She's a healthy, robust, (beautiful), 88-lb dog who is approximately 3 years old this month. Leaves the cat nugglets alone. Prefers hers. And only the warm ones.

I don't have e-collar advise since I have never used one. Just want to wish you good luck with her since I can see in your post that frustration is high.


One thing about the positive training - most of the failures (only work for treats) is because someone did not provide the full process of how to use them and how to fade them from the process.

Hopefully you will get some good advise and things will be looking up for you.

And, last but certainly not least, I hope you are doing well and will be off chemo soon. That is such a difficult and tiring process.

Great job getting her thyroid levels checked.

If you are willing to extend more patience and understanding, she may then be able to relax better during handling. Air-snapping, snapping at you (displacement behaviors), calming signals such as yawning, spinning, looking away, etc. are all telling you that she feels very stressed and confused. Being a calm, relaxed leader who can give her clear communication, can help her relax. It may be good to take the time to ground and center yourself before proceeding with this stressed dog.

Using an e-collar to intensify correction when a dog is both stressed and confused by the current handling situation can be very unwise. My sense is that you could instead receive supportive guidance in learning how to become a more effective trainer and clear communicator with your dog. You'd have support to improve your relationship with her, communicate better between you.

To learn the subtle, modern, intricate e-collar methods, it takes a patient handler willing to take the extensive amount of time required to learn under professional guidance. These subtle methods can clarify things and bring out the best in a dog. Even help a soft, sensitive, anxious dog relax, as it's used as a helpful learning cue the dog easily understands, rather than a harsher blast-ya-so-ya-do-what-I-say method. It's not a quick fix.

Please consider taking the time to see if you might find a behaviorist to help you understand your dog's perspective clearer. Then, you can find a supportive trainer offering a balanced training method so that you can communicate more clearly with her. Understanding, patience, and clarity can bring you the results you need!

PS-- On Talking Terms With Dogs, by Turid Rugaas is a good read, to help recognize calming signals and displacement behaviors. But again, a balanced training method helps our dogs relax.

Noting my frustration level is that obvious, huh?!

I'm really confused about what to do with her. I'd love to work with a trainer, but I don't want treat-based right now. A friend of mine is a cop & his partner is a K9. If he had the time, I'd ask him to help, because I know those dogs don't get a piece of candy when they perform. I know this sounds mean, but she is intelligent & easily the most stubborn dog with whom I've ever worked. She even beats out the Dobie & Rottie. Being "nice" is not what she needs right now, IMO.

I've always been cautious about the e-collars & was secretly glad she had such a negative reaction at first. Now, I just want cement shoes to keep all 4 on the floor. And no teeth present for her to snap with.

Picture a little kid when you tell them to sit still. Or make their bed. The child looks away, looks all over the room except at you, or yawns. Frustrating? Very definitely. It's more than that really, I just can't find the right words for a public forum...

I'll start with the suggestions received here. And try to find someone to teach me.

Best thing about chemo is, I have no hair to pull out in my frustration.

Braver - the thyroid check was Maxalisa's suggestion - SHE deserves the kudos! So, how do I find a GOOD behaviorist? We've already been taken by so-called dog trainers (to the tune of $3,000) that proved to be a waste of time & where she was kenneled 23 hours a day. Mu hubby will kill me if I get us with another sharlitan (sp).

ecollars - such a misunderstood training tool. too many folks think it is cruel. i do not. i use mine and have started my younger dog on it , too. the ecollar allows my dogs freedom when hiking and in offleash areas. it allows me instant corrections in training. however, using the ecollar is not something to be taken lightly. you must be fair to the dog. you must learn how to use it correctly . it took me about a month to feel comfortable in using it. i only use it for things my dogs know beyond a shadow of a doubt. i do not train a behaviour with it, i re-enforce the behaviour he knows without a shadow of a doubt.

i use a prong collar also. i have started my younger dog on it, too. this , again, is an amaing training tool when used correctly. again, this is something one needs instruction on. and once you have learned how to use it, it is invaluable as a training tool.

i have a dogtra 1900. when you get your ecollar, make sure it is working properly by trying it on yourself and make sure that both prongs fire at the same and that they do it everytime you push the button. i recently had to send back a dogtra (i dont know what it was called but it is the mini version of the 1900) it fired only 6 out of 20 times. i would have been mortified to have put it on the dog with such inconsistancy.

sounds like you have done alot with this dog. and if your treat training works, well then you should now start to ween the dog off treats onto tugs or balls. still supplementing with treats.

i always feel that BandT doesnt work unless YOU also are in the training. did you continue with this trainer? or was this the one that used a prong on your dog? what do you do when your dog tries to bite you? or blows you off? what would you like your "end game" to be?

A German Shepherd is not an Irish Setter. I know, obvious, but worth repeating.

I've done a lot of looking at different trainers in the area. I still haven't found one I'd recommend over Leah for general training. You might call Julia Priest: http://coachforcanines.blogspot.com/ she does use prongs and chokes(?) And zap collars and is a GSD breeder. I took Max to her for his fear issues last summer (nope, none of those tools for Max ) and she is pretty good, and experienced with the tools that you want to use.

I would strongly encouraging you not to enter into e-collar training with your problem child until you find a trainer that you can work with. There's an excellent chance that you will make things worse.

Eta: this e-collar advice is not about not using it - people here know that I am not a fan in general. But you have a special needs girl here, a relationship with her that is messed up from lack of success (no fault of yours, you've been trying, and you are frustrated and angry. That's a very tough combination.

This is because the relationship is broken and the communication isn't there. There are different ways of fixing this, I prefer to start at the ground level - what is working, and build on that, so that she looks toward you, instead of away. The more frustrated she you get, the more she will avert and not work with you. It's a viscious cycle.

I found with Max the clicker is a great way to break that cycle. Something abmagical about that silly little thing.

Eek, all sorts of extra letters in that post - don't know what happened.

I'm not a fan of the e-collars either --- I think I've told you before how I feel about them.

But I AM frustrated. And everyone pushes the reward-based training, which I believe got us off on the wrong track to begin with. Because we created a monster.

As I type this, I watch hubby take her outside: as he approaches, out comes her "play" growl, where she picks up her toy & growls. Oh, she sits before exiting the crate 'cause she knows she won't get out otherwise. Then leads him out the door with that useless harness on her. He corrects her back to a "heel", but she jets forward. And now we're getting ready for that fun drive home. With any luck, she won't see an alien. Aliens make her bark. I can't tell which ones are aliens, but she can. It's like "Men in Black" where some see the aliens & others don't.

I just want a well-behaved house dog. One that doesn't run thru the house, ramming thru human or cat (especially my crippled one). One that listens to basic commands & does what she's told. It's not like I'm asking her to sing the National Anthem. I just want a good dog. But she's got Brat-itis....

The more you say, the more I think it's relationship, impulse control, and over-excitment issues....not things the e-collar is really going to help with.

And I do like e-collars--use one for a lot of different things--but not really what you are describing. I think they are useful for long distance things like recall, refining behaviors, using to stimulate through commands, etc. But not to control a dog that doesn't know what to do with itself.

I think finding a good sport trainer might help you a lot. You really have to get your relationship with her to a point where what you are doing with her is not just going into her head and frying because she is overloading. I think you need a combination of rewards and correction based. You really DO need to be doing reward reward reward for each correction. You can't do SOLEY correction based training or you'll degrade your relationship farter.

Personally, I think a lot of the behaviors you're describing where you think she's blowing you off is a dog in stress and some kind of conflict..

Sorry you're going through this. I'm sure you're at your wits end with everything you are going through.

Are you familiar with Michael Ellis' methods of dog training?

You can find a lot of information over at Leerburg.com

I find his methods to be a great balance between positive training with fair corrections...the emphasis being on keeping the dog engaged and focused on the handler, building the relationship.

I do use an e-collar, as well...I have a Dogtra 1900. Love it!

I think the e-collar would help. She knows commands (obvious because she performs when food is present) but is refusing to obey. The e-collar is a non-confrontational way to get the dog to understand that they need to listen and obey on the first command. They can easily learn they can avoid the annoyance of the stim (and it is an annoyance, if you are using a level that is causing pain, you are doing it wrong) by quickly obeying. Dogs can't think and learn if they are in major discomfort and pain, so you need to use a "working level" when using an e-collar. Only in high distraction situations you may need to increase this level to get the dog's attention. A working level is usually noticed by the dog by the flick of its ear or shaking of its head. Anymore reaction than that, you have the stim too high.

go to www.loucastle.com and read through Lou's articles and check out the message board. You can get some great advice and info.

Hi Oliver's Mama -

First of all, I'm truly sorry to hear that you've had a relapse of the cancer. Lots of warm wishes and positive thoughts heading your way for good results with the chemo. It's a stressful time for you and that can't help with the difficulties you're having with Ziva.

Going by the comments you've made in this thread, I think that there's just a huge rift in the communication between you and Ziva. I think that your use of treats was well-meaning but not executed properly, and she has come to associate the sight or smell of the obvious treat as part of her cue for the behavior. For example, if you hold out a treat and say "sit", the dog learns to sit at the SIGHT of you holding out the treat. When you take the treat away, that changes the cue and the dog no longer fully understands, and so instead of promptly obeying they offer signals that show they're confused and stressed (looking away, yawning - these are classic stress signals). If you think about it, why would a dog deliberately not do a simple behavior for you, especially when they have learned that you become frustrated and unhappy with them? The answer is that they WOULDN'T, which tells me that your dog is confused and not just being a brat.

It's much easier to think that she's blowing you off than to think that your training may have confused her, but you do need to really look at what's happened before deciding what to do next. Adding punishment to a dog that's confused will crater whatever relationship you have at this point, and I really recommend that you hold off on any punishment and instead work on relationship.

This is what I would do if I were in your situation:

1. I'd change my frame of mind. Instead of worrying about what she ISN'T doing right, I'd look at all the things that I like about her (I know, it may be difficult to find a lot of those right now, but you can). I'd decide that for the next couple of months, I'll stop stressing about her behaviors. I won't give her commands that I know she'll probably not do. I'll just think of her as a dog that I'm getting to know, and I'll let the stress go. This will be very good for YOU, because additional stress right now is not conducive to your health.

2. I'd implement a NILIF program. Again, I'd do this as stress-free as possible. That means that if she opts not to do something, then she doesn't get the reward. No punishment, no stress, no worry - I'd shrug it off and think "Oh well, your loss!". During this time, she has to earn everything. Petting, attention, playing with toys, going through the doorway, eating her food, etc. Initially I might just wait until she gives me eye contact, and then give her the reward (which may just be opening the door to let her out). She will probably escalate this to sitting quickly, or even downing. Don't ask her for these behaviors at first, but if she starts offering them then you can add in the verbal command and use them that way. If she doesn't respond to the verbal command - no biggie!! Again, it's her loss, and the reward just goes away.

3. Never EVER have treats on you. Keep a baggie or plastic container (lidded) of treats in various areas of the house, so you have quick access. I know you're not keen on treats at this time, but please realize that the treats didn't work because you didn't use them properly. Treats are a very valid reward but like anything, the reward concept can be messed up if the person rewarding isn't aware of the right way to use it. Again - shrug that off, don't stress over a mistake you made. It doesn't matter now. Keep the treats in areas (on a shelf, etc.) where you have easy access, and when you get a behavior you like (whether asked for or not - maybe she's just calmly laying down while you watch TV) then praise her and take her to a treat container and give her a treat. Make her learn that treats can come at any time and from a variety of places - but they will NOT be on you, visible or easily scented. And don't give in to the easy thing - having the treats on us is EASY but it's not a good training idea.

4. Try not to put her in situations where she can act like a brat. Yes, she IS at that age where GSDs tend to push all our buttons. Practice means of control that are simple and yet effective. Have her drag a leash, and if she starts going bonkers just step on it and stop her. Practice tethering her in the house. I have tethers attached to certain doorknobs and door hinges, and in my other place had an "O-bolt" in the wall to hook a tether to. I also used ex-pens as needed, and crates too. If she gets a little wild, take her calmly and confine her, either by tether or crate or whatever. If she starts getting noisy, leave the room and only return when she stops. I know this is difficult, but as you do it consistently you will find that the noise happens less and less. Don't let her ride in the back seat of the car with you if that's an issue. Either crate her, or leave her home until you get some of these things worked out. Avoiding situations where she acts badly will allow you to concentrate on the times when she acts good.

5. Keep in mind that dogs do what works for them. They don't deliberately plan to sabotage the behaviors we've tried to teach them. If doing the behavior worked best for them, they'd do it! And if a dog stops doing a behavior that you think she should know, the first place to look is at yourself. What are YOU doing differently? Have you taught a behavior in one room and then tried to get her to do it somewhere else? Dogs don't transfer behaviors well into different surroundings. Every time you change the criteria (for example, stop using a treat as part of the command) it confuses the dogs. They see the command as including all of your body movements, the visible reward, the type of floor they're on, the room they're in, etc. The only way to get dogs to learn to generalize a command is to teach that command in lots of different settings. And please note that I said "teach". For a while, every new place you ask your dog to do a behavior in means you need to take a step backwards and help your dog understand that "sit" means "sit" if you're on linoleum, or carpet, or grass, or cars are going by, or kids are laughing, or no treats are visible. This is simply a training concept, and it's 100% the trainer's fault if they fail to do this correctly.

6. I wouldn't go to a shock collar at this point. I don't think your dog is deliberately disobeying, for all the reasons I've explained above. Adding punishment to a dog that is confused isn't going to make the dog better. You might see an improvement because the dog will be frantic to give you a behavior that makes you stop hurting them, but they aren't "learning" - they're reacting. And the shock collar is a punishment. Even at a low-level range (which is what I recommend you study if you decide to go with it), the dog is learning how to STOP the irritation around its neck by offering a behavior. There are scenarios in which a shock collar might be appropriate (and yes, I have one and yes, I've used it and will again). But from what you describe, it would be unfair to your dog to use a shock collar at this point. You need to explain things better to your dog before you go to punishment. You need to learn to enjoy what she can offer and to let the frustration go (a difficult step, but you'll be SO HAPPY when that happens). We humans like to be in control, and that control will come, but first your dog needs to understand how to work without visible treats. And this entire process will bring you closer to your dog, and result in a higher understanding between the two of you. It will be wonderful.

I hope that you take this advice in the way it is intended - as a means to bring you and your dog together in a trusting, sensible way. I know how very frustrating a young, active shepherd can be, but with the right tools you can learn to shape her behaviors into willing, happy responses. Best of luck to you, and I do hope that your chemo knocks back the cancer without being too rough on you overall.

Melanie

This is not completely clear if it's true.

Eta: I think Melanie covered it, great post!

Too bad that we don't live closer, it would help if you had some fellow "dog support" in this.

like I mentioned, a properly used e-collar will not hurt the dog, and if your dog gives more of a reaction than a head shake, you're too high on the stim level. Im not going to get into an e-collar debate.....so if the OP wants to learn more about e-collars, go to www.loucastle.com and check out the articles and talk with people on the message board.

what do you do when your dog misbehaves?

Actually the entire concept of shock collars is that they cause an uncomfortable sensation to the dog - which can be described as pain, although shock collar enthusiasts don't use that term - and the dog performs in order to stop that sensation that is so uncomfortable to them. If it's not uncomfortable or painful, it won't work because the dog won't have any reason to try to avoid it.

That aside, many people who are driven by frustration to the point of using a shock collar are thinking of the collar in terms of pure punishment, not as a negative reinforcement (low level stimulation). So it's good to encourage people to remember that shock collars have the potential - especially in inexperienced hands - to create a HUGE amount of pain.



This is not as simple a question as it seems. Before I even consider punishment for something, I have to be 100% sure that I've taught my dog successfully to understand what the cue/command means. In all honesty - and I'm speaking from my experience in teaching not only pet dog classes, but competition classes - MOST people training their dogs have a difficult time properly teaching their dogs a behavior, and then when their dog fails to perform they blame the dog. Most "misbehaviors", when it comes to cued behaviors, are a break-down in training and NOT because a dog just wants to misbehave.

Logic dictates that dogs will respond to a command if they know it, because it pays for them to respond. They get that reward, that treat or the thrown tennis ball. They avoid the shock of the collar or the yank on the prong. Everything points toward the dog performing IF they understand the cue! So a dog that fails to perform usually just isn't that well trained. Maybe the trainer completely screwed up. Maybe the dog never was taught how to ignore certain distractions. Maybe - especially in competition - the dog never learned how to handle stress. There are myriad reasons why dogs fail to perform, and most of them have to do with human failure, not canine.

How do I correct a dog if they TRULY misbehave? A verbal "eht" works well for my dogs, given our relationship. Occasionally leash corrections. Tazer got a good swat on the butt the other day for bringing a frozen dog turd in the house. I've used the low level stim shock collar for off-leash play-time, but I honestly don't consider that training. All I'm doing is teaching the dog that WHEN the collar is on, a shock might happen and she doesn't want that, so she doesn't go far from me. That's not training. That's maintenance. And I went with it for many reasons, one being that my wrists hurt a lot and I didn't want jerked on when in a flare. My dogs aren't stupid. They know if they have a heavy device strapped tightly to their necks or not. Most people I've seen who "train" their dogs with shock collars end up having dogs that have to wear shock collars most of the time because the dog is fully aware when the collar is there or not. Same with prongs, or gentle leader harnesses for that matter. Most people who rely on those devices (remember, I said RELY) end up with dogs that have to wear them in order to be controlled. And that's just not training.

I know when I post, it sounds like I'm anti-correction. I'm NOT. I'm anti-correction-for-dogs-who-don't-understand. And training doesn't come natural to everyone, and some dogs tend to test people's patience more than others. But I love a good challenge, which is why I've trained and trialed chows for the past 20 years (I just realized it's been 20 - I got Kylee in 1991!). I understand stubborn dogs, dogs that don't live to please you. And still, with proper training techniques, those dogs can be taught consistent behaviors with minimal corrections. And that's what I encourage people to do. That's why I take the time to write out huge replies when someone is having a problem. I don't do it for ME. I do it in hopes that someone out there will see the post and change their mind about using corrections because they realize there are other things they can do.

I realize that corrections are easy for a lot of people. Believe me, I saw plenty of that in classes - people were willing to yank or swat, but getting them to praise was like pulling teeth. That's human nature, to push animals into compliance. But just because we CAN force compliance, doesn't mean we always SHOULD. Should a dog be forced to stay out of the road? Yep. Should it be forced to sit on command? Nah. There's no reason to force a dog to sit. They already know how, we just have to put a cue to it.

And after all this explanation, and the long post above, there will still be those who only see that I refer to shock collars as causing pain .. *L*

Melanie

agreed. i recently found out that fritz didnt get the concept of come to front ("here") from positions other than from heel position or in front of me or quite a distace in front. i could be 100 feet away and when i say "here' fast as lightening he comes to front. however, i found out that if he was behind me, on the right of me -- he wouldnt come to front if i say "here" when he is in those positions he went to heel position. so, no matter what type of corrections i would use at this point they would not be effective as the dog clearly doesnt get the "here" command 100%. so, we go back to basics and teach "here" from all positions. i do this with marker training (treats/tugs). i would not correct for this until i am 100% sure he knows that "here" means come to front no matter where you or i am. after that is established i layer in corrections.

so my question about the dog misbehaving... if you say sit, the dog dosent sit... what do you do? do you correct because you know the dog knows the command or ignore the whole thing (which of course enforces the dogs non sitting behavior if he knows the command)? or are you thinking maybe the dog doesnt know the command as well as you thought and you go back and retrain it?

OP, when you say you use treats... do you do marker / clicker training?

I have used a combination of training over the years, compulsion only, compulsion with praise, treats only, treat with praise, etc.

The think that some treat trainers reply on the treat as a reward, so locking the dog to work only for treats. I start pup with treats and praise, but by 6 months or so it is more praise seldom treats. I use play and incorporate training with it, dogs love to play so we work in some nice OB commands and the reward is we get to go play some more.

With treats I will randomly give a pet on the head or neck, when I want to cut back on the treat, then the treats become more random and the pet praise is consistent. Praise is always given with any reward, so praise becomes part of the reward. By Praise I don't mean you have to go over board and get all excited, but just let the dog know that you are happy and pleased with them.

Body language, What is your body language saying to the dog? Does you dog see frustration or irritation in you that puts them on edge?

A lot of great advise already...

Love what Melanie and Val have to say.

Oscar has been my frustrating problem child since he turned about 10 months. He's 26 months now and just starting to turn the corner. There are still times that are frustrating for both of us...like we're on different planets...but focusing on what I do like about him and when he does good behaviors/responses to my cues...I LAVISHLY reward him lovin', play and the occasional treat.

I'm so happy that you are asking for advise on this. Keep your head up!

Im interested in why you didn't fully train/condition your dog with the e-collar if you where going to use it? My dog isn't collar smart because I didnt use the e-collar as a band aid and only put it on right before certain situations. It's the same thing as saying "I trained my dog with only food and positive reinforcement" and still needing to bring a bag of hot dogs or a toy to get your dog to listen. Just curious if you bought the collar, why you wouldn't invest the time and get the most use out of it.

For a dog with Ziva's background, already wary of humans, just let me play the role of Jean for a minute, and mention animal communicator...

It helped turn things around with Max when we were trying to get cour communication straight after Indy left us. I think he was so relieved to have someone hear his voice...

A little out there (and not speaking for Jean here!), I picture some of these dogs as living their world in a strange sense of isolation. They are trying to tell us things, we are trying to tell them things, and nothing is getting through on either end and both sides end up getting really really frustrated. Some of these emotions towards Ziva, I felt with Max.

When we first showed up at Julia's reactive dog class (realizing now OM that that would be too far for you with everything going on), but her dogs reacted to Max, and by watching how her dogs reacted, she told me that "there"s something wrong with your dog", he just gives off weird signals.

I think asking what you do when your dog does something wrong, in this case, is the wrong starting point. I still want to know what she does right.

Basic positions, sit, down, stand, are they reliable when you food lure with the hand that you are giving the hand signal with? I expect this is the case.

If you remove the treat, are the hand signals reliable without the lure? I expect that this fails frequently, and this is where you start, and don't even add the verbals until the visuals are solid.

Start with successes and build, don't challenge the things you know will fail and I really like what Mel said about letting go of the things that she does wrong, destressing the situation for the both of you.

LauraHolder, I will bet the longer Oscar stays nice and healthy things will improve. Dogs with digestive problems usually are just not interested in pleasing their humans, learning or obeying.

Like I said, I didn't use the shock collar for training. I bought it for one reason, and one reason only - to allow my dog off-leash playtime. I bought it for maintenance, not so that I could use punishment to get my dog to heel or down or stay or any other trained behavior. I did go through the proper steps to determine the working level of the shock, and then the steps to show my dog that she could 'turn off' the shock by coming to me. And after that, all she had to do was wear the collar and she stayed near me.

Since I don't use the collar for training of any sort (I've been able to train almost all competition behaviors and practical behaviors without the use of a shock collar), there's no need to leave that uncomfortable thing on my dogs for any length of time. The tightness alone creates discomfort for the dog, and I've seen bruises left where the contacts are, just from wearing the collar for a few hours. You can't leave the collar loose enough to be comfortable because you lose the connection, so you have no choice but to keep it snug. And even shock collar advocates tell you to move the contacts to different areas on the dog's neck every four hours or so because they can cause sores on the dog. That right there points to the collar itself being a punishment, even without using the shock.

The amount of time that a dog would have to wear one of these collars in order to have the behaviors become habit even without the collar seems brutal, to me. I chose not to put my dog through that, and instead I willingly and knowingly used it as a means for maintenance control and not for actual training. I don't enjoy using a shock collar on my dogs, and use it minimally only to give them freedom to play and run.

And in my definition of "collar smart", any dog whose behavior changes when you put the collar on is collar smart. If a dog truly was trained with a shock collar but not collar smart, you wouldn't ever have to put the collar on them after they were trained, because the collar itself wouldn't matter. But I'm pretty sure that if you take a dog that was trained "properly" using a shock collar, and the dog was misbehaving and you put the collar on, you'd see an instant change because the dog would be aware that the collar was there - before you even shocked them. How stupid would a dog have to be to not know this tight thing was on it, and that the tight thing had the ability to produce a shocking sensation? I don't know of any dogs that stupid, personally. I doubt they exist.

The shock collar debate is one of those things that never gets resolved, because the types of personalities on either side don't really understand the motives of the other personalities. I would rather reward my dog too much than use discomfort to train. Others have no problems using discomfort and often think that a dog should mind just because it's a dog. I originally was in the second group, but I soon discovered how wonderful it was to be in the first group. I like to think that I evolved .. *L* .. but of course, those who are in the second group would take that as an insult.

I went into a long description of all the atrocities I've seen done in the name of training as an explanation of why I choose not to correct any more than possible, but decided this wasn't the place to put it. Suffice it to say that with some people, the end result justifies the means. I'm of the philosophy that the means are what show a person's true nature. It's all a personal choice, of course.

I hope the OP has found information in this thread that will help her.

Melanie

The amount of time that a dog would have to wear one of these collars in order to have the behaviors become habit even without the collar seems brutal, to me --- so are you saying that , i dont know, the 30 or so minutes you may spend a day on a training session is brutely long? i realize that in this world ecollars can be abused, as prongs, chokers, flat collars, leashes, voice....if you have a dog (not neccissarily you you) that can totally be trained with positive reenforcement. yipee. do it. i dont. i dont think most gsds are that way. i understand using the ecollar for only off leash fun. i use it that way,t oo. i also use it as a training tool as i said earlier- not for the dog to learn but once he HAS learned- to reenforce. i think i f you have been instructed on how to do CORRECTlY (not saying you have not) you can use in all ways. i know that we will never ever (that is everyone here)agree on ecollars , prongs and even corrections....i envy those who can produce extrememly behaved dogs without corrections (prong, collars, chokers, ecollars, voice, leash) ...

to the OP... i hope that you will be able to find the balance you need to get what you desire from your dog. i do have an amazing trainer that would be about an hour and a half away.

Schnic -- May I recommend "Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition" by Sheila Booth? Don't diss this woman before you look at her credentials.

1. OMG - I can't believe so many have taken the time with all your wonderful advice to help me with this situation --- Thank you!
2. Sorry for the delay in responding. Yesterday was Day 1 of Round 7 of my chemo. It's the 7-hour day & it usually makes me tired. I come home & sleep...on the floor in front of the TV. I awaken to see Oliver about 6" in front of my face, just watching. Ziva sits about a foot behind him. That, alone, says a lot about this big puppy's heart & how far she's come emotionally since we've had her.

It may take me a couple of posts to answer all your questions, but I'll get there!

We guess Ziva to be about 3. She's grown tremendously in the year & a half we've had her: from 70 to 88 lbs. Haven't measured her height, but her tail is almost 21" long. (I was curious because she hits the hallway on both sides with her tail as she struts down...) She's big for a female, I'm guessing a backyard breeder. She was skin & bones & had scars on her face & ribs. Hair thinned out. That's why we gave up on 'formal' training - when the first 2 didn't work out - & concentrated on letting her learn there truly ARE good people in the world & that she is loved. For the most part, I think we've been successful. Altho, considering how she related to hubby & me, we're of the opinion it was a female that abused her.

I have a few DVDs of Michael Ellis. And Victoria Stillwell. And Cesar Milan. And a book collection that rivals my Dean Koontz. Right now, to be honest, I cannot read another book. "Chemo-Brain" is a real thing & I cannot concentrate. I know we've made some screw-ups along the way. Because of her background, didn't want to be harsh. She's hand-shy & HATES having a raised voice aimed at her.

But sometimes a raised voice is how she listens: Told to 'Down'. She stares, yawns or looks away. Repeat it, this time raising the voice. She does it. Once down, told to 'Stay'. Another yawn. It's the same with most commands. If she thinks you hold a treat, her response is almost flawless. From a Down to an Up. To a Come, where she bunces forward & lands Front-and-Center. No food treats, but praise. Hand signals always accompany the verbal commands. Sometimes we just use the hand signals, & she's better with those. Go figure.

The repitition is old. Repeating oneself is old. Then this air-popping that started last summer, which turned into snapping. She will Heel with the prong, but not with standard choke chain or harness. She's like an ox with those. I hate the prong.

The ONLY time she responds to a known command is when it's time to exit the crate. She knows to sit - with the door open, until we cross the room. Or she doesn't get out. We return to the crate & close the door. Until she sits. After months of this, she knows. This is not a dumb dog - this is a dog that will get the attention she wants - good or bad. I would think she'd prefer the good, esPECially with her background.

We've screwed up. but certainly not deliberately. And we can fix that. (with your help. ) Because she's worth it.

I like the idea of tethers. Consistency? She gets the same commands in all rooms, on all types of flooring - even outside. And she was doing beautifully until she hit this whatever-you-want-to-call-it stage. Come to think of it, when treats were removed, that's when she started going bonkers at certain vehicles going by (only the diesal trucks) & sometimes other dogs. She'll bark at a Labrador & ignore the barking slipper 1 day. Next day, it's the other way around. No way to anticipate.

I will visit the loucastle website - I thank you for that input.

"eht" has gotten to be like a second language. She's told to Sit while the back door opens, so she can go out. As the door opens, she makes this movement like a sprinter awaiting the command to bolt out of his blocks. "eht" stops that. "Good girl". More twitching forward. "eht". She stops again. "Good girl". She stays. THEN she can go out. But by that time, I'm telling hubby as we walk back down the hall that I really just want to shove that "eht" where the sun don't shine...sorry, but it's irritating.

We bought clickers, but haven't used them. There are ssoooo many different schools of thought out there &, to be honest, I just figured this was another wild hair. Have the books & videos for clickers, too.

Too bad we have all this "stuff" & I haven't the slightest idea what to do with a stubborn dog. I should. Both hubby & I are Aires = Stubborn. You've no idea how many times I've wound up in tears because I'm at a total loss as to what to do. And what does Ziva do? Smarty-Pants comes over & licks my face. EYE have failed HER & she licks my face. Pretty pathetic, huh?

You all have given me hope that we can turn this around. Not for us, but because she deserves it.

I'll be back, time to get something into this rotten stomach...

lol How frustrating.

Anytime any word or sound is used so much it becomes one of two things - background noise or part of a command.

I would guess in this case she is now waiting for the 'eht' as part of the command. So, do what you want and drop it's use in this instance. Save it so it means something in other contexts.

I assume she has a good 'stay' command. So instead of the usual routine, ask her to 'sit', then 'stay' and if she breaks the stay, close the door and step back. Wait a few seconds and try again - if she breaks the stay, close the door and step back.

If it takes three times, close the door and leave the area and don't try again for about 5 minutes.

What she wants in this case is to go out, so that is the reward. If there is no stay until released, there is no reward.

It may take a few sets or a few days, but I bet she will soon learn the door closes in her face when her feet begin the shuffle. Lightbulb. She will decide to 'stay' until released.

Positive training is not just about treats. It is mostly about using the rewards that work best for the situation, whether going out a door, getting into a car, getting supper, attention or praise.

I know you are working on much more, but since you used that for an example, I thought I would throw this out there.

Good luck.

Note: I know some people consider the stay command to mean 'until released' and that is a good goal to build toward. But while building a foundation, give all the cues you need. You can drop the 'stay' later after proofing the door exercise to perfection.

Just reading the last of this (like I popped in to Schnickle's simply to respond to it) so if this has been said before...


It sounds to me like you know what works - food! USE IT! Quit thinking something is wrong with food lures/rewards. If it works for your dog USE IT. OK?

And pick one guru that seems to work -- you've got too many contradictions with that Milue of training tapes. Give that one a shot for a few weeks (I wouldn't use Ceasar Milan myself). Take some deep breaths, see if you can find some more patience, and you all will be fine.

(BTW I seem to remember that when I am absolutely at my wits end with some behavior, the dog sees the lights and that one is solved. Things look great for a few weeks and then LOOKIE! Here's another behavior to work on! Guess they think that keeps us on our toes.

Whew, I read through this whole thing.

1. Wow, you are on chemo and trying to do something with your dog at the same time. That...seems daunting to me! I have committed to (actually just recently realized this) not doing any training with any of my dogs or fosters when I am not feeling well because it always goes really badly. And that's not from chemo level of feeling bad.

*so my suggestion for this is just do NILIF and if you need to continue to use food for now while YOU are getting treatment to help YOU deal with your dog, so be it
*is there someone you would trust (I am freaky about this) who could exercise your dog a couple of hours a day, or a dog day care (again, freak out for me) that she could go to so that her level of fatigue will be closer to your own (no where near it but closer)
*someone who would volunteer to take her to a nose work class or something like that?

2. She is shooting you a bajillion calming signals. Suggestion for this is one:
*Turid Rugas (spelling) has a DVD to watch so no reading! Warning, you may nod off during it but you can always rewind. Every behavior you listed above is a stressed out dog.

3. Stubborn dogs don't truly exist. I have Chow mixes and am still saying that. What they usually are is:
*smarter (that's me and my Chow/BC mix)
*nervous
*unsure of what is being asked
Some dogs are so smart that they break down our commands into meta-commands. Border collies are famous for this. My new resolution of not training while not feeling well coincided with working with my foster who I think may be a BC mix on the down command. She was really looking at everything I did and unless I replicated it exactly, it was a new command for her. I ended up on the floor, exhausted and she was like WTH are you doing lady because that first thing was a down, the second time you used the same word, totally different signal...

http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html read the part that says "If Border Collies are so smart, then why aren't they easy to train?" and then there is one more thing past that that is a good read.

Suggestion for this:
*take time off and then you are going to want to change out words and hand signals for new ones with her so you can start clean.
*take the word stubborn out of your vocab for your dog (what's her sign?)

3. Your odor - you have got to have a lot of smells happening right now. They are likely freaking your dog out. (I can hear people rolling your eyes, let 'em roll, people!) I had a foster go through Heartworm treatment this summer. *I* could smell it - poison. My poop eating dogs would not eat her poop. I could tell when she had cleared the poisons because (and it was a few months after her last injection) they started eating her poop again (not because I wanted them to, but because they have four legs and I have 2 and can beat me to the pile). No suggestions for this one just know that she is responding to you on a level that we cannot even begin to imagine.

4. I saw Lisa channeled me and recommended an animal communicator. Best shortcut I know - and I think that people who will do this are ready to understand the importance of the relationship in dealing with their dog. You can do this now while still on treatment. There are a few of us who can give recommendations.

Please take care of yourself. My feeling is this dog is trying to fix something - and can't.

Isn't a recall a trained behavior? Like I said, a band-aid. A quick fix for a problem without investing the time. Sounds like your dog is obedient to the collar and not you. I can take the collar off my dog and get the same performance as I do leaving it on. But I still put it on, cause why not? Im pretty sure my dog wont run away from me, but I still put an ID collar on him when we go out, too. Lately I have been putting the e-collar on pretty much every day and it wont come off until we got to bed. And we dont train everyday and I can go days and days and days without having to push the button. I dont even walk around with the remote on me, its usually hanging on the leash hook.

I dont understand its ok to use for one thing, but not another. You don't mind causing your dog discomfort (your word, not mine) to be off leash, but not for a down stay...interesting.



why do you put properly in quotations? Like it's not possible to properly train a dog with an e-collar? That they will always be collar smart?

i want to add here that clicker/marker training is not "a wild hair". since your dog already is motivated by food you should try this. i dont know what micheal ellis dvd you have, but he would be my choice. his way of training is amazing. and i will shamelessly plug his parter Lisa Maze who is about an hour from you who does do personal training with folks here locally. i am assuming you just use your prong for the "pulling" problem but you have not actually taught a formal heel? and you dont like the prong because it is to mean?

I don’t intend to get off topic with the never-ending pro and con ecollar topic, but I really feel it is a shame that you never pursued learning the correct way to use an ecollar and, as a result, lumped all ecollar users into a “second group” that relies on discomfort.

OP, I admire your courage and determination, and my advice to you would be that you have gotten a tremendous amount of suggestions here, but only YOU know your own dog – her strengths, weaknesses, positives, and negatives. Pick and choose which methods interest or intrigue you, or even ones you’ve never thought of, and experiment to see which one(s) works best for you and your dog. You have the spunk and tenacity and willingness to turn this dog into a wonderful, loving, well-behaved family member. The best of luck to you!

And positive thoughts as you deal with your health issues.

I agree. Its easy for everyone to dole out training over the internet without ever spending time with the actual dog and owner. There is nothing wrong with taking a bit of everything if it works for you and your dog. I personally would never limit myself to just one way of dog training. I use food, marker words, clickers, toys, praise, prong collars, e-collars, whatever because if I can make myself 100% clear to the dog then they will learn faster, easier, and be more successful, less likely to make mistakes which means they get more praise and more reward.

Good luck!

There is so much good stuff in here that I couldn't pick which part to quote, so I quoted it all.

I really think that #2 needs to be stressed. All those yawns, sighs, lip licking, etc, yes, are all signs that a stressed dog gives off to say, essentially, hey I'm a stressed dog and I'm trying to relay this to you. Learning to recognize those signals will help, and then the tough part is to figure out how to de-stress the situation. That DVD is a great learning tool, and, yes, don't watch it when you're already sleepy.

She is food motivated, and voice sensitive. As middle says, you can use what you know works, we just need to figure out how best to use that.

Told to 'Down'. She stares, yawns or looks away. Repeat it, this time raising the voice. She does it. Once down, told to 'Stay'. Another yawn. It's the same with most commands. If she thinks you hold a treat, her response is almost flawless. From a Down to an Up. To a Come, where she bunces forward & lands Front-and-Center. No food treats, but praise. Hand signals always accompany the verbal commands. Sometimes we just use the hand signals, & she's better with those.

No verbal signals until she is 100% with the hand signals, otherwise you end up repeating sit 5 times and she learns that sit doesn't really mean sit except for maybe the 5th time it's repeated, or until the voice raises.

If she is flawless with the food treat in hand, now work on just the hand signals, with food somewhere else, first in the other hand, and then on a table, changing the frequency of the reward so that it is never a pattern. This is where you can start integrating the clicker after you load it up, if you so choose.

Only when the hand signals are solid, do you start adding voice. It is harder for a dog to respond to voice than to visual signals. They live in the land of visual communication - verbal communication is not their first language

Personally I would never ask her to stay at this stage, since it sounds like she is not ready. Bonnie is right that some use stay as, don't move until I come back to you, this is how I use it, and use "Wait" when I'm going to call them off. I just wouldn't ask her for something that she can't do at this point, it's not productive and sets her up for failure.

That's a starting point. If basic "puppy pushups" aren't solid (sit, down, stand) with hand and verbal, you won't make much progress, so start there - it's also relationship building, something that simple. Also, she is stressed, you want to give her something she is successful at, and that she also learns to have confidence in what she perceives that you are telling her.

And, as Jean says, I would let the rest go for now, learn how to control her without commands that she blows off, and take one step at a time.

The shock collar debate is one of those things that never gets resolved, because the types of personalities on either side don't really understand the motives of the other personalities. I would rather reward my dog too much than use discomfort to train. Others have no problems using discomfort and often think that a dog should mind just because it's a dog. I originally was in the second group, but I soon discovered how wonderful it was to be in the first group. I like to think that I evolved .. *L* .. but of course, those who are in the second group would take that as an insult.>>>>>

To some neither "side" is a religion. There is middle ground..

I have been using the approach that Lou Castle uses in introducing and using a E-Collar. His approach is to use it to train behaviors at the lowest possible levels. by doing this a number of other "bad" behaviors can be controlled. There is no question that they can be very effective without going to levels of stim that are too high.

Somewhere on this thread, I was re-routed to Lou's site & have been reading everything I can get my hands on there.

A friend of ours is a K9 handler with a local police dept & he has worked with her a couple of times. Knowing the level of training the police K9s get, I was still amazed how 'rough' it can be! Still, he proved my point when he agreed she knows her commands, but that she's blowing us off. Course, he noticed a couple of other things, too - like hubby's treatment of her differs from mine. Ex: in a 'Heel', I use a loose leash & snap back to the right position when she juts forward. Hubby uses a tight leash & pulls her back. Mixed signals. (I knew this, but my pleas for his method to change fell on deaf ears - until the police friend told him! haha)

He also wanted to see what makes her snap at me - to observe her 'in action' - to see if she had any warning signals & what I should do at that point. I'm not going to say here what he did, but it certainly wasn't a "time out". He's handled K9s over 20 years - both in training & out in the field, & I know him. So I trust him. He doesn't put up with that behavior & I don't see why I should have to, either. Aside from making me angry, it flat-out hurts.

I know it's going to take time & work. And patience. But I don't want people thinking this all came about "all of a sudden" after I started getting the chemo. And she began acting like a brat because of any scent I carry from the cocktails. She started this about 4 months before the cancer was even found. It's our fault it has gtten as bad as it has - we procrastinated & gave her all kinds of excuses. Now that we know differently, the situations are handled differently. Far less freedom. Lots more NILIF.

Her newest act is what she does at work. I sit in a front office, her crate in front of my desk. Far too many times, she'll get up, start making circles like she wants out, tail banging against the crate, & whining loud. If I'm on the phone, I can't tell her to 'down & quiet'. So now I have to have a squirt bottle on my desk & use it while I'm talking to a customer. Personally, I'd prefer to leave her at home, as I don't believe she's earned the right to be there. But hubby likes taking her to work - well then, take her out in the shop with you! Because that's where she's gonna wind up if she continues to play this game while I'm trying to work.

They keep postponing my last chemo, because of blood counts being too low. If they postpone it again this Sat, the police friend will come out & work with her some more. I guess we'll see.

well, if your friend gave her a good hard correction when she was biteing on you-- then good for him. the kind of biteing that can not be redirected with a tug or toy really is just her tring to bite YOU and although you can fix it with purely positive methods, that is something that i would not be able to take the time to do. getting bitten by your own dog for fun is unacceptable...

I only skimmed this thread, but a few things jumped out at me.

I would highly disagree with the K9 handler (who, at least in my area, have a minimal understanding of dog training), that she is blowing you off.
9 times out of 10 when a handler say their dog is blowing them off, I see a dog who is confused and being corrected for a behavior they don't understand.

To find out if she has a true understanding of the commands I would implement the 'Sit Test'-
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/sit-test

I think this quote applies well to this situation-
"The humane objective of the Sit Test is to illustrate that unreliable responses usually stem from the dog simply not understanding familiar instructions in unusual (un-proofed) settings. Rather than punishing the dog for “disobedience”, the intelligent and caring owner would go back and retrain. Bear this in mind when performing the Sit Test."

Max had police training when he was young.

It TOTALLY SCREWED HIM UP and I was never able to undo the damage it did to him.

Proceed with caution, although deep down, I would really advise you to just say no, and perhaps expect an escalation of behaviours that you are trying to subdue.

If this is a dog from a rescue and they will take her back, I would suggest that. It honestly does not sound like an enjoyable experience for anyone, and if I read this about my foster dog, I would want to have her returned to me, and possibly help you find a match dog.

There is nothing wrong with returning a dog to find one that fits better.

BTW, dogs CAN tell when people or other animals are sick well before we know it.

Main and most important point is that it's not giving up to return a dog.

There are a couple local rescues too, even if she is not returned to the original one.

Good point jean.

It's just one of those things - you don't have to do it, it isn't comfortable for human or animal, so why do it? It would be like dating someone who did all the things that bothered you - scraping their teeth on a fork, jiggling their leg all the time, adjusting themselves in public, whatever it is that would make you cringe to be around them...there's no reason to stay with them, no reward for you, and annoying for them to be nagged for doing things that may come naturally to them.

Yes I'm alive. I get on here once or twice a year, it seems...

I may have a stubborn dog. The difference between a stubborn dog and a dog that isn't quite sure of the command is the dog's reaction. When Renji isn't sure, he will try or offer calming signals or frustration-bark or whine. It also becomes quite clear that he is confused or unsure. When he is stubborn, he will just get up and walk away, turn away from me, turn his back to me, and that happens in a certain context. This does not happen during training. This happens when all I want to do is take a nap and all he wants to do is shove a ball down my throat. I insist that he lies down or I get frustrated, then I give one crystal clear LIE DOWN and he will turn his back on me and slowly walk away. He sure as snap knows what the command means, but the response is clear. In training, if I ever get that sort of reaction, I know he is BORED. It's one of those "Ma, we've done this a million times" or "Ma, I can jump through the hoop when you hold it in the air. I really don't want to just walk through it. You're being ridiculous." Gotta know the context.

Regarding ecollar and only putting it on to ensure the dog is collarwise, seriously what is wrong with that? That's great! This is an insurance policy. Dogs are still dogs, and we can train them until we're blue in the face and the dog has umpteen titles, but in the end, the dog has a mind of its own just like a human, and just like a human a dog is prone to doing stupid things. It's not a question of bad training. Maybe the dog will think twice about jumping after that rabbit if it knows it has a collar around its neck. If not, maybe having that collar there will save your dog's life in the event it decides to simply be a dog. It's one thing to rely on it 100% and it is quite another to use it as a failsafe.

To the OP, regarding the clicker, it is a very easy tool to work with. I know you said you read a bunch of book and theory and you haven't tried clicker work because of that. Do yourself a favor and put those books on the shelf for now. Set yourself up with your dog's meal (if she is a "foodie" and loves mealtime) or a bunch of high-value treats. Click the clicker, give a treat. Click the clicker, give a treat. Click and treat and click and treat and repeat. Repeat for a few meals, repeat for a few handfuls of treats over a few days. I guarantee it will not take you long for you to click and see your dog's face light up, knowing a treat is on the way. To test this, wait until your dog is doing something else and not paying attention to you, then click. If she whips her head around and comes to you all bright eyed and bushy tailed, you know you've got the clicker "loaded." You are armed and ready!

Clicking is all about timing. If you want to click for a sit, you have to realize that there is a lot more to this command and execution than "dog sits down." It breaks down like this (and assumes your dog knows the command): You say sit, dog's butt tucks in or dog rolls back on haunches (the first is correct obedience sit but what you reward is up to you), butt touches ground. That is the exact moment you need to click, as soon as butt and ground make contact. Don't take an extra breath, don't blink an eye. Why? Because each moment you wait longer could mean you clicking for a different behavior other than what is intended.

What is a fun way to work on timing without confusing your dog? Confuse a human! Ask your hubby to play this game. Instruct him to start "doing things," and tell him you will click whenever he has made a move you like but you will NOT say anything. Pick an action for him to do, something like putting his right hand on top of his head. Start clicking for any motion that may result in your end goal. Click when he moves his right hand. Click when he lifts his right hand. Click when he moves his right hand toward his head. Continue until you achieve the behavior or until hubby is thoroughly confused. I did this with my ex because he couldn't understand why he wasn't getting quick results with Renji. We both had a turn at this and he learned how critical it was to have good timing.

It still happens that I click too quickly or too late or miss it altogether. It is best to miss a click than click for the wrong instance. Regardless, if you click, you MUST treat!

About being bitten by your own dog, yes that sucks. I work on bite inhibition constantly with mine. If there are mistakes (hand and mouth going for a toy at the same time), my dog has had his mouth on skin enough times to put the brakes on immediately. I'm a proponent of allowing and encouraging a dog to mouth in CONTROLLED games in CONTROLLED circumstances to allow for cognizance of bite pressure. I don't know if it can be safely taught at this point but for general reference, dogs really need to know just how much pressure our weakly bodies can take in the event of an oops. I know too many dogs who only know "BITE DOWN HARD." We had a mishap the other day when Renji was stepped on in the middle of the night. What happens when you painfully startle a sleeping dog? You guessed it. I am convinced all the bite pressure work and games and training we've done has prevented something much, much worse than a sore hand.

You say she sucks at heeling. Honestly, neither of us enjoy walks. Renji wants to GO GO GO SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF GO GO GO. And really, I could spend the entire time on his case and we can both be miserable or I can eschew walks altogether and opt for safe off-leash fetch or biking. If I must take him for a walk, I strap a backpack on him and load it up and that keeps him in a lower, more purposeful gear. Otherwise, we stick to lots of fetching and all-out running, biking, agility training, nosework/scent detection, etc. We'll go on trails every so often and I'll put him on a long line so he can bounce around but otherwise, we just don't operate at the same speed and I really do want to give him time to be "directive free" and just be himself. Maybe you need to find a walk alternative for your dog.

I know you're frustrated that your dog will gladly work for treats but little else. It does sound to me like you need to spend more time in the train/treat phase. I love the idea of keeping treats all over the place. The clicker, the wonder that it is, gives you a few extra seconds to run for the treat jar- the dog knows the click means it has done well so as long as you've clicked, you can walk over to the goodies while continuously telling your dog how much smarter she is than all those honor students. Try training fun tricks with the clicker, things that don't really matter, things that won't stress you out for noncompliance, things that will be inherently just FUN. Teach her to pick up dropped laundry or find your lost keys. Fun stuff builds bonding and teamwork.

I do also 100% agree with those who've said maybe you just aren't a good match. This is not a failure- in fact, it is a success if the dog finds a proper home and you find a dog that better fits your situation. There is no right or wrong here, just what is good, comfortable, and successful for everyone involved!

(Sorry for the novel...)