I have put this off long enough & now I sometimes don’t like my own dog…

Long story short: We adopted Ziva from a local Rescue in August 2010. About 18 months old. Skinny & scars from previous encounters with humans. Rescue said she walked well on a leash-WRONG. She drug my fatbutt across a damp lawn like I was water-skiing. They said she was good with cats-WRONG. We have (4) & she’d lunge & bark at the top of her lungs at them. Found out later that she was well-behaved at the 1st house visit because they had her on so many Benadryls... First mistake was a Board&Train. We didn’t know about them at that time. Waste of her time & our $$. Next tried a private trainer – didn’t like her use of a prong collar & yanking the dog from a ‘Stand’ to a ‘Down’ with the prongs. Tried an e-collar, but her response was so dramatic that we “assumed” it was too harsh for her. (We have since learned she should get an Oscar for her acting ability.)

We spent the next few months with no (formal) training – just basic stuff at home. Allowed time for her to heal & to bond. Worked with her using treats because everyone was against the old choke collar/leather leash way of training.

Now she won’t do ANYthing unless there’s a treat involved. With treats, her obedience is about 98-99%. Without treats, she yawns at a command, or looks away, or makes 100 circles before going to the down. Started this darn air-snapping last summer & sometimes it has gone to snapping at me. Not funny & won’t be tolerated. At a suggestion, we had blood work done on her, including full thyroid panel. Rule out anything physical. After a few hundred dollars, the vet diagnosed her: “Brat-itis”, “Terrible Two’s”.

Ex: She goes to work with us, riding in the back seat. When told to ‘Down’ – in a normal voice – she turns around & looks out the back glass. Or yawns. If our voice is raised, she’ll ‘down’. At work, she’s in a crate (because she won’t stay in 1 area). At lunch, she gets 20-30 minutes outside. Back in the crate for 3 ½ hours. We have a large warehouse: after work, she runs & plays & goes up & down the stairs for at least an hour. Tires her out pretty well. On the weekends at home, she goes to a park where she romps at the end of a 20’ lead.

She was my gift to myself after conquering cancer in 2009. Guess I didn’t wait long enough: the cancer returned last Aug – AFTER her behaviors started (so that no one misunderstands & blames the changes at home for her bratty behaviors). My chemo is on Sat’s, but I still go to work Tues-Fri. Her routine hasn’t changed. Her food hasn’t changed (Taste of the Wild + Natural Balance Synergy)

Only her behaviors have changed & I don’t like it. She shows no respect. Jumps at back door & onto people – she KNOWS better. Finally accepted the cats, but still charges thru the house like a wild horse. During 1 of her charges, she mis-stepped onto my crippled cat Oliver. I swear I wanted to smack her – I protect that 15-yr-old cat to the “Nth” degree. I grabbed her short lead & led her to the wall with my legs, all while telling her “no cat” & “down”. Air-popping began. She truly reminds me of a nephew who, at the age of 4, was the Biggest Brat of the Century. (come to think of it – HE bit, too!)

Never thought I’d say this – but I’d like input on the most reliable e-collar you guys know. I’m looking for something to elicit a quick response, so we’re not repeating ourselves with the commands she fully knows. Or to get thru to her when she’s in a place where we can’t reach her collar. (back seat of truck, in her crate, when she’s outside & jumping at the slider doors, etc)

Simply because she knows the basics, I don’t think it would take that long to teach her that she simply has to do what she’s told.

This is way longer than I wanted - Sorry! I know we've made mistakes. I know we have a fabulous dog-in-the-making. But I'm not good around brats (humans or dogs) & I'm darn sure not in the mood to be snapped at.

Help!?!

Thanks - in advance.

PS - forgot 1 more behavior --- now she's eating her poop again (hasn't done that for over a year). Pineapple added to her diet has done nothing to stop it.

I like dogtra. Their customer service is great!

E collar is good if used properly.

Do you have someone to help you learn to use it?

If not, try looking at loucastle.com. He'll most likely call you back if you call him.

As for collars, don't go "economy.". Look at the Dogtra collars that have both tone and Variable stimulation levels.

There is an ecollar forum, http://www.modernecollartraining.com/ , where you can ask questions.

It's not magic though. Get some help learning about it.

Good luck.

Hmmm. Honestly, I don't think that what you want to use the e-collar for is maybe the best application. And if you decide to use it, definitely get some pretty intensive lessons from people who know how to use it correctly. Most of the times when I have seen people with your types of issues with their dog is just turns into a zap fest. Not saying this is what you'd do, but it's easy to get into that habit when you are correcting mostly "house behavior" type issues.

One thing you might want to look into is starting crate games with her. It sounds like one of the biggest issues is impulse control, which the e-collar really isn't going to help with.

Also, giving her a good mental workout might help as well. From the routine you described it really doesn't sound like she's getting a lot to work her mind out. If you have a warehouse, the first thing that comes to mine is nosework.....teach her to go find people, toys, food--anything.

If she's back to eating her stools, I would look to medical reasons for that, and food issues can make behaviours worse. Her actions don't sound medical in nature, but there could be a compnent there.

I wouldn't use an e-collar without working with a professional, you can really mess up a messed up dog if not used properly. I believe that GSDElsa has experience and uses the e-collar, and what she said makes sense to me.

I see that your chemo is on Sat, which means you can't go to Leah's classes. Or maybe you tried her and it didn't work out.

I understand your frustrations, been there.

Tell us what she does right?

Maxa - my chemo runs 2 Sat. Then off the 3rd, back on for 2, etc... Melissa said it probably couldn't work until the chemo's done (which HOPEFULLY will be Feb 4). But, & I am having some serious problems with my own thoughts on these e-collars - I really don't want treat-training at this point. Because now that's the only time Ziva works correctly. And Leah is reward/treat-based training.

In the "old days" hahahaha, we used correction-based training & the only equipment were a choke chain & lead. If I could easily train a goofy Irish Setter well enough to get him 3 legs on his Obedience, I think I'd rather go back to that.

With this dog, I have over 2 dozen books, leads of all types, choke collar, spike collar, martindale, + 2 types of harnesses & a Gentle Leader. 3 different types of treat pouches. To be honest, I wish I could find a cattle prod. (Just kidding - don't want people screaming at me).

Oh - AGAIN spent $$ looking for a health-related issue concerning her turd-eating. She's a healthy, robust, (beautiful), 88-lb dog who is approximately 3 years old this month. Leaves the cat nugglets alone. Prefers hers. And only the warm ones.

I don't have e-collar advise since I have never used one. Just want to wish you good luck with her since I can see in your post that frustration is high.


One thing about the positive training - most of the failures (only work for treats) is because someone did not provide the full process of how to use them and how to fade them from the process.

Hopefully you will get some good advise and things will be looking up for you.

And, last but certainly not least, I hope you are doing well and will be off chemo soon. That is such a difficult and tiring process.

Great job getting her thyroid levels checked.

If you are willing to extend more patience and understanding, she may then be able to relax better during handling. Air-snapping, snapping at you (displacement behaviors), calming signals such as yawning, spinning, looking away, etc. are all telling you that she feels very stressed and confused. Being a calm, relaxed leader who can give her clear communication, can help her relax. It may be good to take the time to ground and center yourself before proceeding with this stressed dog.

Using an e-collar to intensify correction when a dog is both stressed and confused by the current handling situation can be very unwise. My sense is that you could instead receive supportive guidance in learning how to become a more effective trainer and clear communicator with your dog. You'd have support to improve your relationship with her, communicate better between you.

To learn the subtle, modern, intricate e-collar methods, it takes a patient handler willing to take the extensive amount of time required to learn under professional guidance. These subtle methods can clarify things and bring out the best in a dog. Even help a soft, sensitive, anxious dog relax, as it's used as a helpful learning cue the dog easily understands, rather than a harsher blast-ya-so-ya-do-what-I-say method. It's not a quick fix.

Please consider taking the time to see if you might find a behaviorist to help you understand your dog's perspective clearer. Then, you can find a supportive trainer offering a balanced training method so that you can communicate more clearly with her. Understanding, patience, and clarity can bring you the results you need!

PS-- On Talking Terms With Dogs, by Turid Rugaas is a good read, to help recognize calming signals and displacement behaviors. But again, a balanced training method helps our dogs relax.

Noting my frustration level is that obvious, huh?!

I'm really confused about what to do with her. I'd love to work with a trainer, but I don't want treat-based right now. A friend of mine is a cop & his partner is a K9. If he had the time, I'd ask him to help, because I know those dogs don't get a piece of candy when they perform. I know this sounds mean, but she is intelligent & easily the most stubborn dog with whom I've ever worked. She even beats out the Dobie & Rottie. Being "nice" is not what she needs right now, IMO.

I've always been cautious about the e-collars & was secretly glad she had such a negative reaction at first. Now, I just want cement shoes to keep all 4 on the floor. And no teeth present for her to snap with.

Picture a little kid when you tell them to sit still. Or make their bed. The child looks away, looks all over the room except at you, or yawns. Frustrating? Very definitely. It's more than that really, I just can't find the right words for a public forum...

I'll start with the suggestions received here. And try to find someone to teach me.

Best thing about chemo is, I have no hair to pull out in my frustration.

Braver - the thyroid check was Maxalisa's suggestion - SHE deserves the kudos! So, how do I find a GOOD behaviorist? We've already been taken by so-called dog trainers (to the tune of $3,000) that proved to be a waste of time & where she was kenneled 23 hours a day. Mu hubby will kill me if I get us with another sharlitan (sp).

ecollars - such a misunderstood training tool. too many folks think it is cruel. i do not. i use mine and have started my younger dog on it , too. the ecollar allows my dogs freedom when hiking and in offleash areas. it allows me instant corrections in training. however, using the ecollar is not something to be taken lightly. you must be fair to the dog. you must learn how to use it correctly . it took me about a month to feel comfortable in using it. i only use it for things my dogs know beyond a shadow of a doubt. i do not train a behaviour with it, i re-enforce the behaviour he knows without a shadow of a doubt.

i use a prong collar also. i have started my younger dog on it, too. this , again, is an amaing training tool when used correctly. again, this is something one needs instruction on. and once you have learned how to use it, it is invaluable as a training tool.

i have a dogtra 1900. when you get your ecollar, make sure it is working properly by trying it on yourself and make sure that both prongs fire at the same and that they do it everytime you push the button. i recently had to send back a dogtra (i dont know what it was called but it is the mini version of the 1900) it fired only 6 out of 20 times. i would have been mortified to have put it on the dog with such inconsistancy.

sounds like you have done alot with this dog. and if your treat training works, well then you should now start to ween the dog off treats onto tugs or balls. still supplementing with treats.

i always feel that BandT doesnt work unless YOU also are in the training. did you continue with this trainer? or was this the one that used a prong on your dog? what do you do when your dog tries to bite you? or blows you off? what would you like your "end game" to be?