#204528 - 01/09/12 01:53 PM
Re: E-collar advice, please
[Re: Oliver's mama]
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Global Moderator
Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 10572
Loc: Northern CA
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Whew, I read through this whole thing.  1. Wow, you are on chemo and trying to do something with your dog at the same time. That...seems daunting to me! I have committed to (actually just recently realized this) not doing any training with any of my dogs or fosters when I am not feeling well because it always goes really badly. And that's not from chemo level of feeling bad. *so my suggestion for this is just do NILIF and if you need to continue to use food for now while YOU are getting treatment to help YOU deal with your dog, so be it *is there someone you would trust (I am freaky about this) who could exercise your dog a couple of hours a day, or a dog day care (again, freak out for me) that she could go to so that her level of fatigue will be closer to your own (no where near it but closer) *someone who would volunteer to take her to a nose work class or something like that? 2. She is shooting you a bajillion calming signals. Suggestion for this is one: *Turid Rugas (spelling) has a DVD to watch so no reading! Warning, you may nod off during it but you can always rewind.  Every behavior you listed above is a stressed out dog. 3. Stubborn dogs don't truly exist. I have Chow mixes and am still saying that.  What they usually are is: *smarter (that's me and my Chow/BC mix) *nervous *unsure of what is being asked Some dogs are so smart that they break down our commands into meta-commands. Border collies are famous for this. My new resolution of not training while not feeling well coincided with working with my foster who I think may be a BC mix on the down command. She was really looking at everything I did and unless I replicated it exactly, it was a new command for her. I ended up on the floor, exhausted and she was like WTH are you doing lady because that first thing was a down, the second time you used the same word, totally different signal... http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html read the part that says "If Border Collies are so smart, then why aren't they easy to train?" and then there is one more thing past that that is a good read. Suggestion for this: *take time off and then you are going to want to change out words and hand signals for new ones with her so you can start clean. *take the word stubborn out of your vocab for your dog (what's her sign?) 3. Your odor - you have got to have a lot of smells happening right now. They are likely freaking your dog out. (I can hear people rolling your eyes, let 'em roll, people!) I had a foster go through Heartworm treatment this summer. *I* could smell it - poison. My poop eating dogs would not eat her poop. I could tell when she had cleared the poisons because (and it was a few months after her last injection) they started eating her poop again (not because I wanted them to, but because they have four legs and I have 2 and can beat me to the pile). No suggestions for this one just know that she is responding to you on a level that we cannot even begin to imagine. 4. I saw Lisa channeled me and recommended an animal communicator. Best shortcut I know - and I think that people who will do this are ready to understand the importance of the relationship in dealing with their dog. You can do this now while still on treatment. There are a few of us who can give recommendations. Please take care of yourself. My feeling is this dog is trying to fix something - and can't. There is so much good stuff in here that I couldn't pick which part to quote, so I quoted it all. I really think that #2 needs to be stressed. All those yawns, sighs, lip licking, etc, yes, are all signs that a stressed dog gives off to say, essentially, hey I'm a stressed dog and I'm trying to relay this to you. Learning to recognize those signals will help, and then the tough part is to figure out how to de-stress the situation. That DVD is a great learning tool, and, yes, don't watch it when you're already sleepy. She is food motivated, and voice sensitive. As middle says, you can use what you know works, we just need to figure out how best to use that. Told to 'Down'. She stares, yawns or looks away. Repeat it, this time raising the voice. She does it. Once down, told to 'Stay'. Another yawn. It's the same with most commands. If she thinks you hold a treat, her response is almost flawless. From a Down to an Up. To a Come, where she bunces forward & lands Front-and-Center. No food treats, but praise. Hand signals always accompany the verbal commands. Sometimes we just use the hand signals, & she's better with those.No verbal signals until she is 100% with the hand signals, otherwise you end up repeating sit 5 times and she learns that sit doesn't really mean sit except for maybe the 5th time it's repeated, or until the voice raises. If she is flawless with the food treat in hand, now work on just the hand signals, with food somewhere else, first in the other hand, and then on a table, changing the frequency of the reward so that it is never a pattern. This is where you can start integrating the clicker after you load it up, if you so choose. Only when the hand signals are solid, do you start adding voice. It is harder for a dog to respond to voice than to visual signals. They live in the land of visual communication - verbal communication is not their first language Personally I would never ask her to stay at this stage, since it sounds like she is not ready. Bonnie is right that some use stay as, don't move until I come back to you, this is how I use it, and use "Wait" when I'm going to call them off. I just wouldn't ask her for something that she can't do at this point, it's not productive and sets her up for failure. That's a starting point. If basic "puppy pushups" aren't solid (sit, down, stand) with hand and verbal, you won't make much progress, so start there - it's also relationship building, something that simple. Also, she is stressed, you want to give her something she is successful at, and that she also learns to have confidence in what she perceives that you are telling her. And, as Jean says, I would let the rest go for now, learn how to control her without commands that she blows off, and take one step at a time. 
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#205397 - 01/13/12 09:25 AM
Re: E-collar advice, please
[Re: MaxaLisa]
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New Member
Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 1
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The shock collar debate is one of those things that never gets resolved, because the types of personalities on either side don't really understand the motives of the other personalities. I would rather reward my dog too much than use discomfort to train. Others have no problems using discomfort and often think that a dog should mind just because it's a dog. I originally was in the second group, but I soon discovered how wonderful it was to be in the first group. I like to think that I evolved .. *L* .. but of course, those who are in the second group would take that as an insult.>>>>>
To some neither "side" is a religion. There is middle ground..
Edited by jiml (01/13/12 09:25 AM)
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#212983 - 02/15/12 10:29 AM
Re: E-collar advice, please
[Re: Schnickle Fritz]
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New Member
Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 6
Loc: Maryland
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I have been using the approach that Lou Castle uses in introducing and using a E-Collar. His approach is to use it to train behaviors at the lowest possible levels. by doing this a number of other "bad" behaviors can be controlled. There is no question that they can be very effective without going to levels of stim that are too high.
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#213023 - 02/15/12 01:03 PM
Re: E-collar advice, please
[Re: Oliver's mama]
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Member
Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Roseville, CA
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Somewhere on this thread, I was re-routed to Lou's site & have been reading everything I can get my hands on there.
A friend of ours is a K9 handler with a local police dept & he has worked with her a couple of times. Knowing the level of training the police K9s get, I was still amazed how 'rough' it can be! Still, he proved my point when he agreed she knows her commands, but that she's blowing us off. Course, he noticed a couple of other things, too - like hubby's treatment of her differs from mine. Ex: in a 'Heel', I use a loose leash & snap back to the right position when she juts forward. Hubby uses a tight leash & pulls her back. Mixed signals. (I knew this, but my pleas for his method to change fell on deaf ears - until the police friend told him! haha)
He also wanted to see what makes her snap at me - to observe her 'in action' - to see if she had any warning signals & what I should do at that point. I'm not going to say here what he did, but it certainly wasn't a "time out". He's handled K9s over 20 years - both in training & out in the field, & I know him. So I trust him. He doesn't put up with that behavior & I don't see why I should have to, either. Aside from making me angry, it flat-out hurts.
I know it's going to take time & work. And patience. But I don't want people thinking this all came about "all of a sudden" after I started getting the chemo. And she began acting like a brat because of any scent I carry from the cocktails. She started this about 4 months before the cancer was even found. It's our fault it has gtten as bad as it has - we procrastinated & gave her all kinds of excuses. Now that we know differently, the situations are handled differently. Far less freedom. Lots more NILIF.
Her newest act is what she does at work. I sit in a front office, her crate in front of my desk. Far too many times, she'll get up, start making circles like she wants out, tail banging against the crate, & whining loud. If I'm on the phone, I can't tell her to 'down & quiet'. So now I have to have a squirt bottle on my desk & use it while I'm talking to a customer. Personally, I'd prefer to leave her at home, as I don't believe she's earned the right to be there. But hubby likes taking her to work - well then, take her out in the shop with you! Because that's where she's gonna wind up if she continues to play this game while I'm trying to work.
They keep postponing my last chemo, because of blood counts being too low. If they postpone it again this Sat, the police friend will come out & work with her some more. I guess we'll see.
Edited by Oliver's mama (02/15/12 01:07 PM)
_________________________
Ziva-2 yrs. Rescued 08-31-10
Feline Rescues (All Housecats):
Oliver-15 yrs
Egger-13 yrs
Sam-7 yrs
Hanna-5 yrs
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#213117 - 02/15/12 07:39 PM
Re: E-collar advice, please
[Re: Oliver's mama]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 1934
Loc: Fairfield, Ca.
Likes: 17
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well, if your friend gave her a good hard correction when she was biteing on you-- then good for him. the kind of biteing that can not be redirected with a tug or toy really is just her tring to bite YOU and although you can fix it with purely positive methods, that is something that i would not be able to take the time to do. getting bitten by your own dog for fun is unacceptable...
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#215229 - 02/25/12 02:24 AM
Re: E-collar advice, please
[Re: Schnickle Fritz]
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Junior Member
Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 41
Likes: 4
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I only skimmed this thread, but a few things jumped out at me. I would highly disagree with the K9 handler (who, at least in my area, have a minimal understanding of dog training), that she is blowing you off. 9 times out of 10 when a handler say their dog is blowing them off, I see a dog who is confused and being corrected for a behavior they don't understand. To find out if she has a true understanding of the commands I would implement the 'Sit Test'- http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/sit-testI think this quote applies well to this situation- "The humane objective of the Sit Test is to illustrate that unreliable responses usually stem from the dog simply not understanding familiar instructions in unusual (un-proofed) settings. Rather than punishing the dog for “disobedience”, the intelligent and caring owner would go back and retrain. Bear this in mind when performing the Sit Test."
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