Background: Kopper is a year old, 3/4 DDR, 1/4 WGWL male pup (Sando/Sven/Branko Saltzalblick if it matters). We've been in classes continuously since he was 10 weeks old. First puppy class, then intermediate obedience, then three different agility classes.


There's another dog in his class that he hates, and that hates him right back. All the other dogs get along with him and he gets along with them. At our last class with this dog, Kopper would not settle down and focus on what we were doing; all he cared about was making the evil eye at the other dog, trying to get to the other dog-- and the other dog was returning the favor. The other dog's owner and I were able to keep our dogs' focus with treats, eye contact, and working obedience between our turns for the most part, but if they got too close to each other they'd try to get at each other. Finally he slipped around me and darted towards the other dog. I waited for him to hit the end of his leash and tugged hard when he got there, turning him in a 180 and making him yelp. Then I pushed him backwards about 20 feet with my knees in his chest, making hard eye contact and letting him know I was *not* happy.

He was perfect for the rest of the class. Ran his courses perfectly, did as he was told. . . the perfect student. Honestly, his attitude and behavior didn't seem all that subdued or upset, he bounced back from the correction and did his agility runs with good attitude, he just didn't try anymore funny business.


Then today we did an "Agility Fun" special session. There were 8 or 9 dogs ther and he was really overstimulated. High pitched barking, lunging at the leash, not focusing or paying attention, and when I'd let go of his leash for him to run through the tunnel, he'd go sprinting off to visit with another dog. Again, I tried to keep his focus with training, obedience work, and treats. Again, it only *kind of* worked. Then when he was focusing on trying to engage another dog, I popped his leash and meant to knee him with a smallish amount of pressure in the side, but he turned around at the same time and I kneed him harder than I meant to. He yelped and looked at me like I'd just stomped on his goldfish, but again he was *perfect* for the rest of the day. Not subdued, not sad or withdrawn, just focused and willing to work.


I know you're not supposed to put too much pressure on these young, immature DDR dogs. And I really really don't like having to "rough him up" but he seems to respond to it. I'd really like some thoughts from more experienced people on this.

P.S. Our instructor doesn't like prongs for agility because they have a tendency to "correct" the dog when he goes over obstacles.

How about some hunters sausage? Spit some at him for good focus once in awhile?
Other than that, not sure your knucklehead won't knuckle under unless you remind him being a dufus is not an option. There's always that finger thing and noise
Cesar does that's annoying. Or a finger flick.
If you've always use an "Ack!" whenever there is a correction, overtime, the sound
is all the correction needed to convey the message.

Or down him until he focuses...though sometimes they load while doing so.

Ahh, adolescence!

If you don't get on top of this now he will be worse when he is older. The fact that he bounces back with no loss of attitude tells me you are not roughing him up to much.

I am a clicker trainer and have used that with Havoc. He has never had an issue with other dogs but he does start the high pitched over the top barking and then grabs my arms.It hurts and I bleed like a pig.I have used several methods on this and none have been effective, not even constant CU exercises. I have spent the majority of my time trying to avoid being nipped without addressing the issue so he has been allowed to continue unacceptable behavior.

I had a private lesson with a USDAA and AKC world team member last week, she comes down to Tulsa from Kansas a few times a year. I have had several lessons before with her but we have always worked on technical stuff. Last week we worked on what I call the "yippy, nippy, grabbies" . The behavior is unacceptable and she has me climbing all over him for even air snapping anywhere near me. Barking on course is okay, screaming is not and as soon as he does I snatch him up by the dollar and march him like a Nazi to a time out. Very black and white. She also suggested I ram my hand down his throat and gag him when he grabs. He wants my hand well he is going all of it in a way he never dreamed of. I am also to raise cain and push myself into his space much like you did pushing Kopper backwards.

I do not like doing this, I don't like harsh corrections but this dog is a hard head and if that is what it takes, then that is what it takes. Havoc is 4 1/2 and we have worked on this with mostly positive methods for 3 1/2 years with no lasting result. This is our last effort before throwing in the towel and stopping agility which is very arousing for him. I had posted about a month ago that I was done with agility but the lesson opening came up and I jumped on it thinking I can use what I learn with another dog. The trainer told me not to give up yet, try being a nasty little Nazi with him for awhile. Not cruel, not inhumane but tough as nails. I have worked on impulse control exercise since he was a pup but I can get to a certain level and not beyond it. This is an impulse control and focus problem just like it is for Kopper.

Don't let Kopper run you, you run him.

Grimm, my sweet-but-hardheaded Czech workinglines male, also responds by not only springing right back after a firm correction, but by suddenly being UPBEAT and HAPPY after the pop, cheerfully engaged and focused, eager to work with a happy attitude. Ears up, eyes bright, lightness to his step, tail waving softly. Looks like he's at ease and gently DANCING. Yep, honest. Food treats? Sets up a dynamic that makes him irritated. You don't "work with" a dog like this using food treats-- you give the dog what the dog needs to feel happy, interested, enthusiastic. For some dogs, it's not only clear boundaries, but the enforcement of them-- as well as loving, soothing praise in a steady diet as earned.

I would never have believed this when I had my last GSD.(soft dog, West German showlines)

A loving leader is c-a-l-m. You are guiding Kopper. You just have to guide him the way he responds best to, even if it is not what you are used to.

I had to stop reading after the last word of the 2nd paragraph. I absolutely can't condone the type of corrections you administered nor did I want to read anymore about the actions taken. Jerking a dog at the end of a leash can snap his neck, do damage to his trachea and more. I've heard of dogs who died after their owners kneed their chest or jerked a collar just a certain way. Dog's don't need to be nor should they be roughed up.

I don't think your dog is responding to in you the way you think he is or really want him to. Aggressive/negative measures used by humans can and do backfire and cause aggression in dogs. By inflicting pain and practicing negative habits you are not gaining his trust, you're making him afraid of you and people in general. A fearful dog is one of the most dangerous dogs there are. If your Mother grabbed you around the neck, jerked you by the hair or the arm or kneed you in the chest to get you away from something or make you do something, would you trust her or would you fear her? About all I would trust is that if I don't do what she wants she's going to hurt me. Not the kind of trust I want to have in my mother or from my dog.

We never used to believe in prong collars -- period. One of the several trainers we tried showed us that we don't need the big typical sized prong collar that you'd expect to see on a large dog. The bigger prong collar we had kept getting snarled up in Nissa's fur. We now use a smaller, narrow prong collar with slightly shorter, smooth rounded end prongs that don't get tangled in her fur. Our leashes are nylon cat leashes -- yes, really -- don't laugh -- don't knock it 'till you've tried it -- this combination works very well for us.

Sounds to me like you need to gain more control of your dog through some good postive obedience practices and also getting him to trust you and know that you'll keep him safe. It's your job to keep your dog safe, not the other way around like so many people believe and in case that's something you've not learned yet. I had it backwards all my life up until the last couple of years or so.

My male is reactive to some dogs but utilizing the prong/leash combination I described above, I have enough verbal control over him and trust from him that I don't need to use much pressure, no jerking, only slight pull-keep walking action, no yanking, jerking or anything of the sort to get him to just keep moving when we run into a situation that triggers his other-dog bad behavior. Try turning and walking away next time your dog gets reactive to another dog. Get him away from the trigger.

Whatever you do, please change your correction methods to more positive, pain-free experiences for you and your dog. Patty is right on - calm is a key ingredient as well.

If you can't get control of the dangerous negatives he's got going - you may want to consider that maybe he just should not participate in activities where there are triggers to his bad behavior.

Oh, and if you try the turn and walk-away thing, you have a positive, happy "let's go" attitude and have some goodies in your pocket to treat him as your walking away from the trigger. Make it more fun and rewarding to walk away than to get all worked up towards another dog.

Kind of ironic you wrote 8 paragraphs about what a horrible person I am after only reading two paragraphs. After reading two paragraphs of your patronizing and pedantic tone, I think I'll return the favor and not bother with the other 6. Thanks.

Yeah, I'm definitely always conscious of being calm when around dogs or horses. They pick up on so much. Everything I did was stuff I was taught by trainers in the past; it's not like I was failing around and panicking.

He is freaking awesome in agility when I can get him to stop focusing on the other dogs and start focusing on the work. He really loves it too. Exactly like Braverhund described-- cheerfully engaged and focused, where as before a correction he's scattered all over the place and over-excited by the other dogs.

This is just my first time working with a heardheaded, resilient dog that won't necessarily work for hot dogs or liver.

I think your corrections were fine. He's a young male, some of them need some very clear, concise, black-and-white information. I would not even think of them as punishment (as many do with corrections), you are just realigning him with what he is supposed to/needs to be doing. I work with Jason and Ike a ton and Ike always responds way, way better and clearer to pressure and corrections than food and toys. Some dogs are just built that way. And anyone who has ever seen Ikie's obedience or tricks videos cannot say that he's not a happy dog.

I would recommend reading Brenda Aloff's Get Connected book, she talks about instilling certain cues or switches with your touch that can calm your dog. I used them on my aggressive Dutch Shepherd and we went through Rally, Obedience, and Agility classes utilizing them. They really do work and I used them a ton out in the "real" world as well. Obviously your dog is 100x more stable than what I was working with but that might make the learning curve shorter/easier.

In regards to the 7 paragraph rant - the smaller "poodle prong" pinch collars are actually more painful and give a much harsher correction than the big ones. So, while you think you are being more humane, you are using a harsher correction. I don't have a problem with either size pinch, used properly - but I would not brag that you don't have to do much of a correction with that size pinch on as that is the point, they deliver one heck of a punch.

I thought it was funny too when read the pitch about humanity of the smaller pinch. Oh well.

On the topic, the dog actually learned very fast and second time he responded to the pop of the collar, no other action was necessary and was confusing. Instead of being crystal clear you with your correction you told the dog that the pop of the collar means nothing. Not a big deal but always know what you want to achieve with your correction and its level.

I never stare down Anton or forced him to do anything. His personality is such that he is not intimidated with the pressure and readily returns the pressure back and is ready for a challenge. With a dog that is stronger and faster than I am it was a dangerous thing to start playing 'I'll show you who's the boss". I had to find a way to make him cooperate and work with me, not for me. Took me a while but I am so thrilled with the result!

In your case I would remove him from the situation and would not correct him when he's in an overdrive. Also I did work on attaching a meaning to a correction so I could control my dog equally well on a flat collar, off leash or on a prong.

Any idea if this is available anywhere cheaper than Amazon? Twenty-five bucks for a used paperback is kind of steep-- just didn't know if it was available elsewhere. Or if anybody had one to sell.

you can rent two of her dvd's at bowwowflix:
http://www.bowwowflix.com/instructor.php?id=233

Agree, but if you have a dog with a thick coat, the smaller prongs won't go deep enough. I have to use the heavier gauge on Karlo and Kacie(the small one will tangle in her longer coat).

I'm sorry you took it that way, I was not trying to offend you. If I sounded nasty, it wasn't intentional. I don't even know what "pedantic" means so I don't know how I could talk that way.

Apparently I sounded like a real b**** to some of you when I was literally trying to help. You read a tone in my words that wasn't intended or twisted what I said into something it wasn't meant to be. My words were not meant to sound the way you "heard" them. Either I can't write or you two got up on the wrong side of the bed. Where you get "rant" out of what I said even after I re-read it is beyond me.

I don't use the prong collar to correct, and I wasn't bragging, I was explaining. I don't have a whole lot to brag about because I'm far from perfect and so are my dogs.

I've apologized to those I unintentially offended and that's all I can do. You can do with that what you feel best to do for yourselves.

Thank you, Jane Jean. I didn't know what to do about the bigger prongs getting tangled up in Nissa's coat - it was really bad and hurt her to get them out. The smaller ones don't do this so are a good solution. I don't jerk on the collars, I don't snap them I don't do any painful corrections w/them. If you people knew me and the fact that if my dogs get so much as a hangnail I'm upset because I don't want them to hurt so there's no way I'd inflict pain on them intentionally.

I had to be convinced to put a prong collar on them because I thought they would be painful but I made people test it on my arm and it didn't hurt me. She's got so much fur around her neck that I don't think the collar even touches her skin.

That's all I'm going to say because I don't want to hijaak the OP's topic.

It sounds like you have a hard dog. Sometimes dogs like that need a little 'tude adjustment. I see absolutley nothing wrong with the corrections you issues him. Especially since they are EFFECTIVE. One clear, no-nonsense correction IMO--with a dog that handles them FINE being the caveat--is MUCH better than a bunch of corrections or even NO corrections (rather just working on redirection) that don't do anything or only fix a part of the problem.

I would NEVEr in a million years do somthing like that with Elsa. She is the type of dog that if you look at her cross eyed gets sad. My little MONSTER Medo? Sure. Absolutely. Your hard little DDR boy is not like other dogs you have had and you should not treat him as such.

I am someone who trains probably 90% positive. But trying to pretend I have Elsa in front of me when I've got the MM isn't going to be effective training.

I find it beyond amusing that you are being told you could possibly kill your dog backing him up with your knees. I have no doubt that you are pushing him back with them, not putting all the kung foo you possibly can into doing it. Same with letting him self-correct on a leash. Constant yanking over a prolonged preiod...sure, not good. Letting him correct himself for being an arsemunch? Not so much.

I'd put a slip collar on for this if you aren't already. It will be much more effective in supressing him

ETA: I just realized it said ramming down throat....I thought you were talking about suppressing him. But you mean literally hand in mouth? A slip collar won't help there! lol.

Uh, if you don't use the prong collar for anything, what is the point if having it on your dog? Weird.

She is getting control of her dog. Just because she is not doing it in a "FurKids" approved way does not mean she isn't doing an effective job.

Not so amusing.

Had a trainer kill a dog with a single correction once. Granted, it was a choke, but a prong used incorrectly, or a knee placed wrong, can do the same thing.

Personally, I think if you are correcting to the point of a yelp (even just short of that), that's no longer just a correction. Hopefully something more effective and less painful can be learned here. It amazes me how much pain GSDs can take in the name of training...Max here is a very good example of that. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should

I read that she was simply walking into him/pushing him back with her knees. She never said she was kneeing her dog in the chest with force.

Anything used incorrectly can kill a dog. There is nothing in what Emoore said that gives the indication she was not using equipment correctly or was beating her dog.

Yeah, Rocky would wilt with a good scolding. Cash was more resilient, but certainly not as hard as Kopper is. These aren't rape-defense knee strikes. It's me getting all up in his space and making him yield the space to me. Same thing with the leash-- he's running full-tilt towards the end of the leash, I braced myself and tugged when he hit the end. More a timing thing than a force thing.

I do think I'll start using the prong in class, though. Probably more effective than the stopgap efforts I'm having to make now. I won't have to put as much physicality into controlling him.

I'm also thinking that skipping this round of agility might be in order, and maybe doing a more advanced obedience class instead.

Sorry, kind of late to the discussion but Emoore it does sound like you are on the right track. You know this behavior is something you won't (and shouldn't) tolerate. And you are doing something about it - which is good.

The backing your dog up with the knees (walking not bashing into) I learned from training horses. (Is that where you got that too?) It actually makes the dog (or horse) concentrate more or think about something else since walking backwards is not a natural thing for the dog. IMO - this was a very smart thing to do.

I agree with a lot of the advice you've already been given. Gotta love these smart members we have.



This doesn't really sound like your problem but I still love this little piece of advice, so just wanted to repeat it. My training director often says this to us. And if we can't be calm or are getting angry with our dog that we need to stop and wait until we have calmed OURselves down. Even if that means waiting to train another day.

Here are my thoughts.

If you have a good strong dog that you give a clear precise correction on is 100% better than the small for ever nagging corrections.

I like positive training but when a dog gets old enough and is strong enough to bounce back from a good correction then that is effective.

I have LC and I have NEVER had a prong collar get tangled up in their coat. If the prong is fitted and placed where it should be it isn't sliding around and getting tangled up in their coat. I prefer the larger prongs myself. I saw a very hard dog with the small prongs on just lean into the collar and straighten several of the prongs.

I have had strong dogs and I have at times had to up the corrections until they understood that I am in charge not them. Cheyenne loves to be in charge, she also will not listen to anyone she doesn't respect. She loves my DH to dead, but she really only listens to me.

Any tool or collar can be misused. The corrections listed here to me do not seem extreme. What a good solid dog can handle and what a soft dog can handle are two different things.

When DeeDee wasn't in her fear zone, I did on occasion use a prong collar with her. She felt that she could always do what she wanted, she didn't get a lot of corrections, just enough to let her know when her mind was clear, she had limitations and had to listen. She had great focus when she wasn't in her fear zone.

Emoore, the training instructor I know won't even allow prongs in class. So if you need to skip this agility class and go for more OB work that might be a plan.

This was Max in his youth, and he's GSL. He just gained tolerance in the amount of pain he would withstand, and also learened "his rules" - when the action was worth that part of the game. It was a game to him, not something that he learned from and built upon.

You stop it by preventing it rather than building a routine that continues to react to it. If he's really that hard, this will escalate and eventually fail in the long run. If it doesn't happen that way, then he's probably not that hard and there are better ways.

Some of Patti"s old posts with Grimm would be very illuminating here! She has been ththrough it!

Now, how to prevent, the million dollar question to find exactly what works for you and your dog.

I should add, no one learns and is comfortable posting if they are attacked. I'm glad that you stuck around - there are always differences in opinion, and somewhere, there is usually at least some insights that will help, or point you in the right direction.

Yep! I think this one right here in this thread holds a lot of wisdom!





This however, I disagree with.

In my experience, in order to change the behavior you have to let the dog know that his/her behavior is wrong or unacceptable. (Just as Emoore has been doing.) If you can do that in a positive manner - great! But you can't just say I'll never put him/her into a situation where this might happen or I will always prevent this from happening because you never know when it might happen. You'd have to lock the dog up in your house, never take him/her anywhere and never allow other dogs over to visit. (This means Grimm wouldn't be a service dog and Kopper would have to drop out of Agility/Obedience classes.) I believe you have to sometimes put the dog safely in this situation intentionally in order to teach the dog the appropriate/acceptable way to handle this. You have to shape/teach/encourage the appropriate behaviors.

PS. I should add to my last paragraph that I think every dog is different and that my last paragraph applies to a dog more like Kopper & Grimm. Kopper seems (from what I've read) like a more dominate young type of dog who is learning and who needs a strong leader to show him the way. He will never learn what's acceptable/appropriate if he is always removed from these types of situations.

i have been concentrating on my BH this week and have not commented on this thread and i have been wanting to since it touches a nerve with me, too.

aaahhhh corrections. what a horrible filthy word... to some folks. mention corrections, walk around with a prong or ecollar on your dog and you are instantly the devil incarnate and PETA needs to be called in and your dog taken away. doesnt matter that you use these tools correctly, that your dogs are very well behaved and friendly, you can take them anywhere and they have never looked used and abused.... you are doomed.

yet, i have seen these same "no corrections ever" people have dogs that cant go anywhere with out confrontations. the dogs are out of control, yippy, biteing, pulling the owner down the street (i have seen this in schutzhund, akc, and just walking in the park- these will have been folks who give me thier snarky corrections are bad comments). all this could be fixed with using corrections the right way. if you understand the way to layer in corrections when your dog has learned the behaviours you will find that these corrections are in no way cruel and unusual punishment. there is a right way and a wrong way to train with corrections. can they be abused? of course. but i have never read anywhere on this forum where we are disscusing the training of our dogs where corrections have ever borderlined on abuse.

my dog is also 3/4 DDR, 1/4 wgwl dog with grafental lines.sven being his grandsire on his father's side. i found at about a year old he was in full teenager mode. this lasted almost a year. he continued to learn, but then would "unlearn" and leave me confused as to how to proceed. i chose to layer in corrections at this time. if i say sit, and you know how to sit (you have been proofed in the house, in the yard, at petco and i am 100% sure you understand the command) and you dont- correction. i am not seeing the cruelty in that.i am not going to beg you to sit. i am going to let you know that in no uncertain terms that i am not asking you to sit, i am demanding you sit.and i am consistant with it. in other words everysingel time i ask you to sit and you dont ... correction. if you do sit -- well you get a party.

all dogs are different , this goes for GSDs too, i think we all know this. we all expect different things from our dogs. i want my dog to take me seriously. if i ask something i expect him to do it. some folks, well they dont mind fifi ignoreing the command. we are all different. but with me i use corrections and i dont abuse them. i make them very black and white. i am not going to break my dogs tracea with a correction. i am not going to break my dogs spirit if i correct him . AND he will still love me at the end of the day.

so to emoore.i dont see that you did anything wrong. the only thing i would have done (and maybe you did do it) would have been treating or praising the heck out of him when he did focus on you. i mean as soon as he looked up "yes"(what ever your marker word is) treat/ pet/ toy...whatever you do for reward.

also, about that time Fritz would have meltdowns. for instance one day after our OB class, there were about 6 folks that got together in the park. we had a great little dog reactivity class. then decided to swim our dogs at the beach. when we got there fritz started screaming and yowling dragging me to the water, i choose not to take him off leash as at this point he was not listening to anything i said. in that case, i just took him back to the car. it just seemed that he had reached a pooint of no return and no amount of corrections or treats were going to do any good. sometimes, and someone already said this, you just have to turn around and put the dog up and try again at a later time. this is not giving up or being a bad trainer... it really is the right thing to do.

I do do this. If we're standing in class and there's a commotion going on, if he looks over at the other dog and then he makes the choice to look back and focus on me, he gets a "yes!" and a liver treat or hot dog. I don't get effusive with the petting and caressing because he doesn't seem to like that in a training/class session. He likes to snuggle and love on the couch, not in the middle of class. I'm constantly monitoring him in class, and if I see him tempted to misbehave and he makes a good choice, I always mark and reward. I also work and reinforce his focus command while we're standing around in class.

There is a difference between preventing and avoiding. To prevent something from happening, you need to get in front of it, and every time it happens it is because either the dog directly chose to do something you were directing otherwise *at that exact instant*, or, as a handler, you failed to be on top of it. Not saying it's easy - I failed on that big time the other night because I wasn't paying attention. This is entirely different from avoiding a situation, which, of course, entails no training at all.

btw... i totally understand why the instructor doesnt want you to use a prong during agility practice when you are doing your jumps (you dont want an acidental self correction when you are trying to get the dog to enjoy what he is doing) but why cant you have 2 collars on? the prong for when you are standing around or not doing "over jumps" work? and change to the flat? i constantly do that. having more than one kind of collar on...

here is a purely positive approach to the pulling on leash problem..

Sorry Lisa, I still have to disagree with you. I'm pretty aware of the differences between "preventing and avoiding". In some cases each is appropriate - depending on the dog and the situation one is faced with. I’m not saying it’s ALWAYS the wrong way to respond (not even sure I'm saying "wrong" - just disagree in this situation). I think in this case it is/was not a realistic solution. I think it might work great for some dogs like your Max but not all dogs, especially not this one in this situation - that’s all.

Huh.

So we had another class today. "Obedience brush-up" with 7 strange dogs. I put his (properly fitting) prong on him for class and filled my treat pouch with chicken bits. When we first came in, he acted like he was going to start being reactive. I gave one good leash pop, he focused on me, I rewarded with chicken, and he was awesome after that. Best dog in the class.

Prevention, good going Emoore, glad it was that effective!

- I wouldn't call a "correction" with a prong - "prevention" as you explained it earlier.

It stopped the game that he was playing....but that's okay, we don't have to agree on the name. You have to stop him from getting success, without causing the yelping pain that was happening before....but, whatever.

It was prevention. How else would you call dealing with a situation when the dog "acted like he was going to start being reactive"?

About yelping. I know everyone calls this pup 'hard' etc. but he may be handler sensitive (it looks like he is to me). In this case a correction from a handler may cause a yelp not because it was painful but because the dog's feelings were hurt. It's like saying, "why would you do that, you could've just asked!"

Not "prevention" as it was explained earlier.

Ps. I would call a correction a correction. Correct or train. We didn't prevent a problem, we corrected the problem. That's how I'd define it.

Just because a dog yelps it doesn't always make them hard or soft.

Some time you startle the dog and they yelp.

Some dogs are just pure drama queens, I knew a hard dog, but was a drama queen with corrections. Even a slight correction and this dog was yelping and screaming.

OK I think some of you can agree with Prevention. So just Drop IT.

I think males are more "drama" yelpers when corrected. Even if it doesn't hurt, they let you know they are feelin it/tail is wagging regardless.

Apparently my public apology was not enough to stop the sarcastic remarks. Just for all of your information, I did just try to send a private PM apology to the OP however she's got me on Ignore so I will put it here:

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings and/or made you angry. In my mind I was trying to be helpful and I didn't understand the attitude you took towards what I'd said. I literally was shocked to see your reply and the attitude I got from some of the others.

Some of the comments I read after mine disturbed me quite a lot. If so many people are taking the sarcastic hurtful attitudes to my words then there had to be something to what I said that they're reading that I didn't intend.

So, I re-read my original post probably 10 times. The light bulb's on now and I believe I see now where you and others got the idea that I was being nasty or uppity or whatever negative you took it as.

I can only repeat that it was not intentional, that I'm sorry and I will try to be more careful how I word things in the future.

Apology accepted, I can see that your tone was unintentional and that you meant to be constructive. I also apologize for being petty.

I like to use the ignore feature for a day or two when someone says something that makes me angry to avoid getting into a big argument. I've found that if someone hurts my feelings or makes me angry, ignoring them for a couple of days helps me cool off and then we can usually make nice again, instead of a 57-page thread where we get progressively madder at each other.

Thanks, Emoore for understanding and accepting. I like your ignore idea -- sounds like a good option. I accept your apology as well.

So, how's about we all get on with DOGGGGG STUFFFFFF!!!!!!!!! That's what we're here for isn't it?

Have a good day --- I gotta get "Cujo" out for a walk, LOL!

This has actually become a pretty good thread, I have learned a lot that I can apply to my hard head too.

Some people have an interesting way of apologizing....



Sorry Val! I'm done

I guess to me, hardness means resilient in this instance. I know there are lots of ways to define it/feel about it. But getting a strong correction and bouncing back immediately and being unfazed is a form of hardness. A hard doesn't doesn't have to be one that fights through everything--including a correction like that. The fact she was being blown off UNTIL she got that in his face about it says something.

I think sometimes we like to call a dog hard because it excuses us to do things that really ought not to be done, and we haven't figured out yet a better way, or haven't bothered to try.

I think both view points are right.

I think part of the problem in this case is that each interprets the word "hard" differently. Which happens with a lot of "training lingo" (and one reason why I usually stay out of the training topics). 10 people can be talking about the same thing using different words or 10 people can be talking about different things using the same word. Fun!

me too! requires a lot of words to really describe what you are thinking!

To me it's just a sign of a dog with good nerves, not necessarily a 'hard'dog. I agree, everyone puts a bit different meaning into many of the terms used to describe dog training, and there is nothing wrong with that.

ETA Vinnie, you posted while I was typing Completely agree! I should stay away from these topics as well but I'm just partial to DDRs and like to follow theirs and their owners progress

Oh, please don't stay away, we need more folks to post in these topics, even though they can be difficult!

yes i agree,t oo. there are so many "ways" to describe the same term .. i love the training threads. i do not agree with some (people, methods, statements), but, that is the beauty of a discussion forum.i think we all have different kinds of dogs, even though most are gsds, have come from many different training backgrounds and more importantly- have many different goals with our dogs ... keeping that all in mind helps when we get into discussions like this one. i hate hearing that some of you dont want to read or post in the training thread, i wonder how much great info we are missing when you dont....

I often stay away because I have very divergent opinions on training. Since I've only worked with one GSD, I figure I don't have the credibility. I do think there are many positive GSD trainers that just don't want to engage...LOL, wonder if it's part of the nature of being a positive trainer

And even the word "positive" trainer gets a bad rap and is ill defined. So, if just that phrase brings up an argument, it's really tough to post.

I honestly don't know that he's a "hard" dog, just hard-er than what I've worked with before. Rocky is extremely soft and Cash was soooooo eager to please and I never went nearly this far with any of the fosters. The techniques I've learned so far aren't working with him. Just means I need to learn more.

Also, the number 1 thing I was told about DDR dogs was "they mature slowly, don't push it in obedience, don't use a lot of correction or compulsion. . ." I kind of let him get away with murder for a lot of his first year.

There ya go. He might not be the hardest dog on the planet, but he's hard in comparison to what you've dealt with. So in your world, saying that fits.

There's always more.....

The theory, if you are going to use pain to train, is to correct hard enough to make an impression, so that they remember it the next time and think twice. Didn't work here - because Max can take A LOT of pain, and he doesn't learn anything long term that way. I also don't want my dog knowing that I can be such a source of pain - just not the person I want to be and the relationship that I want to have with my dog.

Just to add, I did used to be a assistant trainer for several years (assistant is nice, always declined to teach my own class, I do enough of that during the week). Worked with lots of dogs and owners one-on-one of different breeds. However, doing sport work with a GSD does take some experience. Steve White, goes across the country trying to stop police departments from using overly harsh techniques - would love to learn more from him.

Hard headed perhaps? Otto is a stubborn headed DDR boy too. Maturity didn't come until close to his 3rd birthday. He wants what he wants, not that he doesn't want to make me happy. He goes out of his way to do 'the right thing' once he realizes I'm annoyed with him. Unlike Morgan, that crazy old WGWL bitch is a much harder dog than Otto will ever be. Morgan doesn't care if she's being bad. Tonight she was bothering the cat, I called her the big bad bitch, I swear she smiled and nodded.

Train train train. Poor Otto never had a chance to get away with any nonsense because Luther was a hard dog before him. Too bad the old GSDRing.com is undocumented history. The archives of WHY does Luther do these things would have been educational. Luther grew up to love the work, live for it. When he showed up for Rally OB class, other owners would groan that Mr Perfect is here...

A hard dog makes you work harder, learn more, think more about behavior - cause and affect. You bond deeper with a hard dog. Possibly because you spend more time trying to get them to behave, dammit

I love the spirit of my hard headed dogs!

I agree with 'hard' being tough to define. Before I really knew what I was doing in regards to training with Risa, I used to correct her on a prong collar. Didn't seem to matter how gentle or hard the correction was. It didn't phase her. For those who don't know, Risa is a very soft dog. She'll still slink out of a room if I get frustrated opening a jar! If I raised my voice to her, she'd roll over exposing her belly and refuse to do anything. But a pop on the prong did nothing in regards to her understanding of what I was asking her (and did a number on our relationship). I'll admit I did a lot wrong with her in the beginning. But the ability to be unphased by a hard correction does not mean a dog is hard. Risa is a very handler soft, sensitive dog.

My feelings are that if you don't want to use corrections or "rough him up". . .don't. No one says you have to. If you feel comfortable using corrections in your training, that's fine. But there is no requirement to do so.

If you're unsure what to do, try and evaluate the WHY of his behavior. WHY is he behaving in that way? Does he want to be closer to the other dog? Would he like more space? You can use those things as a reward for proper behavior OR to prevent problems in the first place.

When working with Risa, she'll reactively lunge at dogs (out of fear). So I keep her at a distance where she's comfortable and/or I reward behaviors that are appropriate with distance (and/or food). With the puppy I am currently training, she wants to be closer to other dogs and will throw herself to the end of the leash to do so. So I reward her good behavior by walking closer to the dogs and/or giving her treats.

= excellent point! this thought process can be used with all aspects of training.

90% of the time it's because he wants to have Doggie Social Hour. He wants to meet the dogs and play with them. Here lately though, he's discovered he has testicles (literally, I was there when he discovered them. It was a very exciting day) and is increasingly trying to be Mr. Billy Bad@$$.

Then that's something you can work on. He just needs a bit of self control. If you have other willing people with dogs, I would do some Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) with him. (More info on BAT here and here.)

With BAT, the idea is to use the functional reward--what the dog wants--as the reward for proper behavior. I'll use Callie (the 11-month old puppy I'm training) as an example because she is similar to your guy. She loves other dogs and will throw herself at them in an attempt to get closer. She is also rude and needs some work on doggy etiquette. I've done 2 BAT sessions with her so far.

Since Callie is rude, I find it really important to mark calming signals with her and reward those with decreased distance. With Risa, who has calming signals in her repertoire, I usually reward eye contact with me because I want focus from her. So I usually set Callie up as far as I can from the other dogs (at least 10 feet) and I give myself some room to back up if she gets crazy. I wait. If she licks her lips, sniffs the ground, shakes off, scratches herself, or looks away from the other dog, I click (you can use a marker word if you prefer) and take one step closer to the decoy dog. AFTER I have taken the step, I also give her a treat. (Click = treat and, initially, you want to reward with food and the functional reward. The functional reward must come first, though.) I then wait again. If she gives me another calming signal, I click, step, treat. If at any point she gets too close and starts whining, lunging, or gets a bit too out of control (the ability to read dogs well is critical); I simply turn and walk away. When you turn and walk away, ideally, you do not want to drag your dog away. They should willingly come with you (if you need to say "Let's go" or another cue to move them, that's fine). But there is no reward. You just start over.

With party-starters, you can also use increased distance to reward them for proper behavior. Instead of taking one step closer, you would just turn around and walk away. So I would wait for a calming signal, click, retreat several feet, then reward with food.

I've just recently started using BAT with my dog and the puppy and I like the results I'm seeing so far. I like that it empowers the dog to make the right decisions to get what they want. Callie learns that, by being calm, she will get closer to the other dog. (In fact, if both dogs are agreeable, you can use greeting if they can get close enough to do so CALMLY. Not there yet with Callie.) And Risa learns that, by not reacting, she can actually increase her distance from other dogs (which is why she reacts in the first place).

It does take some work to set things up. To really get into the meat of BAT, I would highly recommend reading Grisha Stewart's book Behavior Adjustment Training.

Good luck!