Background: Kopper is a year old, 3/4 DDR, 1/4 WGWL male pup (Sando/Sven/Branko Saltzalblick if it matters). We've been in classes continuously since he was 10 weeks old. First puppy class, then intermediate obedience, then three different agility classes.


There's another dog in his class that he hates, and that hates him right back. All the other dogs get along with him and he gets along with them. At our last class with this dog, Kopper would not settle down and focus on what we were doing; all he cared about was making the evil eye at the other dog, trying to get to the other dog-- and the other dog was returning the favor. The other dog's owner and I were able to keep our dogs' focus with treats, eye contact, and working obedience between our turns for the most part, but if they got too close to each other they'd try to get at each other. Finally he slipped around me and darted towards the other dog. I waited for him to hit the end of his leash and tugged hard when he got there, turning him in a 180 and making him yelp. Then I pushed him backwards about 20 feet with my knees in his chest, making hard eye contact and letting him know I was *not* happy.

He was perfect for the rest of the class. Ran his courses perfectly, did as he was told. . . the perfect student. Honestly, his attitude and behavior didn't seem all that subdued or upset, he bounced back from the correction and did his agility runs with good attitude, he just didn't try anymore funny business.


Then today we did an "Agility Fun" special session. There were 8 or 9 dogs ther and he was really overstimulated. High pitched barking, lunging at the leash, not focusing or paying attention, and when I'd let go of his leash for him to run through the tunnel, he'd go sprinting off to visit with another dog. Again, I tried to keep his focus with training, obedience work, and treats. Again, it only *kind of* worked. Then when he was focusing on trying to engage another dog, I popped his leash and meant to knee him with a smallish amount of pressure in the side, but he turned around at the same time and I kneed him harder than I meant to. He yelped and looked at me like I'd just stomped on his goldfish, but again he was *perfect* for the rest of the day. Not subdued, not sad or withdrawn, just focused and willing to work.


I know you're not supposed to put too much pressure on these young, immature DDR dogs. And I really really don't like having to "rough him up" but he seems to respond to it. I'd really like some thoughts from more experienced people on this.

P.S. Our instructor doesn't like prongs for agility because they have a tendency to "correct" the dog when he goes over obstacles.

How about some hunters sausage? Spit some at him for good focus once in awhile?
Other than that, not sure your knucklehead won't knuckle under unless you remind him being a dufus is not an option. There's always that finger thing and noise
Cesar does that's annoying. Or a finger flick.
If you've always use an "Ack!" whenever there is a correction, overtime, the sound
is all the correction needed to convey the message.

Or down him until he focuses...though sometimes they load while doing so.

Ahh, adolescence!

If you don't get on top of this now he will be worse when he is older. The fact that he bounces back with no loss of attitude tells me you are not roughing him up to much.

I am a clicker trainer and have used that with Havoc. He has never had an issue with other dogs but he does start the high pitched over the top barking and then grabs my arms.It hurts and I bleed like a pig.I have used several methods on this and none have been effective, not even constant CU exercises. I have spent the majority of my time trying to avoid being nipped without addressing the issue so he has been allowed to continue unacceptable behavior.

I had a private lesson with a USDAA and AKC world team member last week, she comes down to Tulsa from Kansas a few times a year. I have had several lessons before with her but we have always worked on technical stuff. Last week we worked on what I call the "yippy, nippy, grabbies" . The behavior is unacceptable and she has me climbing all over him for even air snapping anywhere near me. Barking on course is okay, screaming is not and as soon as he does I snatch him up by the dollar and march him like a Nazi to a time out. Very black and white. She also suggested I ram my hand down his throat and gag him when he grabs. He wants my hand well he is going all of it in a way he never dreamed of. I am also to raise cain and push myself into his space much like you did pushing Kopper backwards.

I do not like doing this, I don't like harsh corrections but this dog is a hard head and if that is what it takes, then that is what it takes. Havoc is 4 1/2 and we have worked on this with mostly positive methods for 3 1/2 years with no lasting result. This is our last effort before throwing in the towel and stopping agility which is very arousing for him. I had posted about a month ago that I was done with agility but the lesson opening came up and I jumped on it thinking I can use what I learn with another dog. The trainer told me not to give up yet, try being a nasty little Nazi with him for awhile. Not cruel, not inhumane but tough as nails. I have worked on impulse control exercise since he was a pup but I can get to a certain level and not beyond it. This is an impulse control and focus problem just like it is for Kopper.

Don't let Kopper run you, you run him.

Grimm, my sweet-but-hardheaded Czech workinglines male, also responds by not only springing right back after a firm correction, but by suddenly being UPBEAT and HAPPY after the pop, cheerfully engaged and focused, eager to work with a happy attitude. Ears up, eyes bright, lightness to his step, tail waving softly. Looks like he's at ease and gently DANCING. Yep, honest. Food treats? Sets up a dynamic that makes him irritated. You don't "work with" a dog like this using food treats-- you give the dog what the dog needs to feel happy, interested, enthusiastic. For some dogs, it's not only clear boundaries, but the enforcement of them-- as well as loving, soothing praise in a steady diet as earned.

I would never have believed this when I had my last GSD.(soft dog, West German showlines)

A loving leader is c-a-l-m. You are guiding Kopper. You just have to guide him the way he responds best to, even if it is not what you are used to.

I had to stop reading after the last word of the 2nd paragraph. I absolutely can't condone the type of corrections you administered nor did I want to read anymore about the actions taken. Jerking a dog at the end of a leash can snap his neck, do damage to his trachea and more. I've heard of dogs who died after their owners kneed their chest or jerked a collar just a certain way. Dog's don't need to be nor should they be roughed up.

I don't think your dog is responding to in you the way you think he is or really want him to. Aggressive/negative measures used by humans can and do backfire and cause aggression in dogs. By inflicting pain and practicing negative habits you are not gaining his trust, you're making him afraid of you and people in general. A fearful dog is one of the most dangerous dogs there are. If your Mother grabbed you around the neck, jerked you by the hair or the arm or kneed you in the chest to get you away from something or make you do something, would you trust her or would you fear her? About all I would trust is that if I don't do what she wants she's going to hurt me. Not the kind of trust I want to have in my mother or from my dog.

We never used to believe in prong collars -- period. One of the several trainers we tried showed us that we don't need the big typical sized prong collar that you'd expect to see on a large dog. The bigger prong collar we had kept getting snarled up in Nissa's fur. We now use a smaller, narrow prong collar with slightly shorter, smooth rounded end prongs that don't get tangled in her fur. Our leashes are nylon cat leashes -- yes, really -- don't laugh -- don't knock it 'till you've tried it -- this combination works very well for us.

Sounds to me like you need to gain more control of your dog through some good postive obedience practices and also getting him to trust you and know that you'll keep him safe. It's your job to keep your dog safe, not the other way around like so many people believe and in case that's something you've not learned yet. I had it backwards all my life up until the last couple of years or so.

My male is reactive to some dogs but utilizing the prong/leash combination I described above, I have enough verbal control over him and trust from him that I don't need to use much pressure, no jerking, only slight pull-keep walking action, no yanking, jerking or anything of the sort to get him to just keep moving when we run into a situation that triggers his other-dog bad behavior. Try turning and walking away next time your dog gets reactive to another dog. Get him away from the trigger.

Whatever you do, please change your correction methods to more positive, pain-free experiences for you and your dog. Patty is right on - calm is a key ingredient as well.

If you can't get control of the dangerous negatives he's got going - you may want to consider that maybe he just should not participate in activities where there are triggers to his bad behavior.

Oh, and if you try the turn and walk-away thing, you have a positive, happy "let's go" attitude and have some goodies in your pocket to treat him as your walking away from the trigger. Make it more fun and rewarding to walk away than to get all worked up towards another dog.

Kind of ironic you wrote 8 paragraphs about what a horrible person I am after only reading two paragraphs. After reading two paragraphs of your patronizing and pedantic tone, I think I'll return the favor and not bother with the other 6. Thanks.

Yeah, I'm definitely always conscious of being calm when around dogs or horses. They pick up on so much. Everything I did was stuff I was taught by trainers in the past; it's not like I was failing around and panicking.

He is freaking awesome in agility when I can get him to stop focusing on the other dogs and start focusing on the work. He really loves it too. Exactly like Braverhund described-- cheerfully engaged and focused, where as before a correction he's scattered all over the place and over-excited by the other dogs.

This is just my first time working with a heardheaded, resilient dog that won't necessarily work for hot dogs or liver.

I think your corrections were fine. He's a young male, some of them need some very clear, concise, black-and-white information. I would not even think of them as punishment (as many do with corrections), you are just realigning him with what he is supposed to/needs to be doing. I work with Jason and Ike a ton and Ike always responds way, way better and clearer to pressure and corrections than food and toys. Some dogs are just built that way. And anyone who has ever seen Ikie's obedience or tricks videos cannot say that he's not a happy dog.

I would recommend reading Brenda Aloff's Get Connected book, she talks about instilling certain cues or switches with your touch that can calm your dog. I used them on my aggressive Dutch Shepherd and we went through Rally, Obedience, and Agility classes utilizing them. They really do work and I used them a ton out in the "real" world as well. Obviously your dog is 100x more stable than what I was working with but that might make the learning curve shorter/easier.

In regards to the 7 paragraph rant - the smaller "poodle prong" pinch collars are actually more painful and give a much harsher correction than the big ones. So, while you think you are being more humane, you are using a harsher correction. I don't have a problem with either size pinch, used properly - but I would not brag that you don't have to do much of a correction with that size pinch on as that is the point, they deliver one heck of a punch.

I thought it was funny too when read the pitch about humanity of the smaller pinch. Oh well.

On the topic, the dog actually learned very fast and second time he responded to the pop of the collar, no other action was necessary and was confusing. Instead of being crystal clear you with your correction you told the dog that the pop of the collar means nothing. Not a big deal but always know what you want to achieve with your correction and its level.

I never stare down Anton or forced him to do anything. His personality is such that he is not intimidated with the pressure and readily returns the pressure back and is ready for a challenge. With a dog that is stronger and faster than I am it was a dangerous thing to start playing 'I'll show you who's the boss". I had to find a way to make him cooperate and work with me, not for me. Took me a while but I am so thrilled with the result!

In your case I would remove him from the situation and would not correct him when he's in an overdrive. Also I did work on attaching a meaning to a correction so I could control my dog equally well on a flat collar, off leash or on a prong.