....many times I've read that it's important to restrict your dogs' access to each other so that they don't bond more strongly to each other than to the owner. I'm not sure I buy that. I'm sitting here watching my three male dogs basically sitting on top of each other taking turns licking each others' faces. Earlier I watched Nikon teach Pan how to "dive" his head into a water bucket to retrieve a ball b/c Pan was too chicken to try at first. Now I suppose I am lucky that all my dogs get along and can be together when I am around (they are separated when I'm not here, not because we've had fights but because they get into too much mischief!), but to me there is something really special about DOG relationships, something I don't feel that I can or need to micro-manage, something I don't feel I can replace. If my dogs don't respect me or mind me, I think that would illustrate a breakdown in our relationship, but not necessarily indicate that I need to segregate them from each other. I enjoy having multiple dogs and observing the behaviors and dynamics of three or four dogs at a time. I don't think that being loyal to the human or loyal to the other dogs has to be mutually exclusive. The dogs provide for eachother something that as a human I am incapable of providing.

Agree/disagree?

Very much agree with you. I've never restricted the dogs' access to each other. All my dogs (and cats) were and are very much bonded both with me and with each other. The older, trained dogs teach the younger, and help with the training. They enjoy each others company. Also a dog with a work ethic has that work ethic no matter what, it's not 'only if and when'.

How good a relationship is, be that between a dog and a human, or for that matter between two humans, is between them, and not dependent on excluding other friendships. How sad that would be otherwise. Friendships enhance each other, and make everyone more happy

agree!!!

I agree with the disclaimer that some people really do let their dogs bond way too much to each other...I'm thinking the first time dog owner who gets a second dog to keep the first "company."

Mine have more or less free access to one another, but we have an xpen and crate set up for Medo, which is mainly used as containment when we can't have a close eye on him (although he's getting over the "snatching everything in sight and running off" phase) and to give Elsa some peace and quite every once in awhile.

agree!

I have never bought into that either. I love my dogs to be buddies.

I think it depends on the context.

I bet that that advice is meant for the owner that spends little time with their dogs, and gets two young dogs of the same age, and throws them in the backyard. LOL, there's all sorts of things that are wrong with that, I wouldn't know where to start....

I do think that it's important to spend individual time with each dog, working with them, but I guess some folks might not agree with that.

Actually, there are quite a few "working" people who adhere to this principal as well. Some of them being people on my SAR team and the TF of the French Ring club I go to. I just smile and nod "yeah, ok. Uh hu. Sure." And go home and let me dogs "make out" later.

Yup, I've been told to keep the working pups segregated, only allowed with the other dogs for short, supervised periods. OK maybe if I had a huge house and/or kennel on acres of land but on a postage stamp, I don't think so! It's imperative that the dogs DO bond with each other and sort things out among themselves, otherwise what? one gets the 4x6 bathroom and one gets the breakfast nook? What kind of life is that? There are a lot of things I am picky about and do micro-manage with respect to their training and how they act around the house but keeping them apart hasn't been one of them. Now if I had two that didn't get along, that's just common sense but I honestly do not see what I would gain by keeping them apart. I like observing their pack dynamics. I like how loyal they are to each other but completely ignore other dogs. I've seen them show what looks like genuine concern for each other.

My situation is unique...have two girls that live at my parents and come to my house a few days a week and my young male who is with me all the time. When we travel, all three are together for days on end...and they LOVE it.

I think there is nothing like seeing a balanced pack of dogs...their interactions together are fascinating to watch.

On our family vacation, it was really interesting because I had my three, plus my hubby's old Cairn for most of a week. They are so synchronized. Then, my Aunt arrived with her two dogs and my grandpa with his. We had 3 GSDs, the Cairn, a Shih Tzu, a beagle mix, and a yorkie all together. What I found really interesting was how my pack maintained "togetherness" even in the mix of all those dogs!

The only time I separate my dogs is to give them a break from a young pup/dog, aside from when I am gone from home and some are crated.

Lies, I think you and I run things in a similar way and the dogs absolutely know the expectations. That knowledge for them means things go really smoothly IME.

Agree. My dogs have fun spending time with me, and they have fun with each other, in a Venn diagram kind of way.

my experience. we had a houndy mutt from the pound. when he was about 5 we decided to get a gsd. we got the gsd as a pup. they were always together, as we didnt do crateing then and let them spend all thier time together. as the pup grew, his love for the older dog grew, too. the older dog could care less about the younger, but the younger could not function without the older one. he would not leave his side, ever. he would not even listen to a command from us unless the mutt listened to it. if we separated them, the GSD went insane. this was true even when we took the gsd away from the other in order to train. he always was looking for the mutt. did they get along, have a good relationship, were they fun to watch? yes, but the gsd was bonded to the mutt, not us. this time - with our "new" gsd and our "new" mutt - we made an effort to keep them separated (separate crates in the car, separate crates at night, separate training time) and this has seemed to develope relationships with us that are stronger than with each other. they get to play and hang out, but not for hours on end and not without some interaction with us. this has lead to two dogs that can be separate from each other and funtion, and two dogs that can interact with each other as well.

we had multiple dogs growing up, atleast 3 at a time..when I moved out, I've had multiple dogs since 91, and at one point 4. All brought in as puppies at varying times, and I've never had any of them 'bond' more with an existing dog..All the dogs I've had/have, have always been really into 'me'. I count myself blessed:)

I do think it has to do with the amount of time you spend with them, and it isn't just all one on one.

Wow, I had no idea.....

Lies, did you limit time Pan had with Coke and Nikon when you first brought him home?

Just curious. I've read the separation thing many times, always assumed it was very temporary thing just for pup to get settled in.

I've also raised my animals together. When I have a puppy or new dog I do separate outings for socialization, training, etc. but I never limit their time together (unless I'm trying to protect an older dog from a puppy).

I have never had a dog who wasn't totally bonded to me--I had never even heard of keeping dogs separated until I started on the boards. It's never been a problem here.

I have done both. But I look how things are going with the dogs.

I had DeeDee and Cheyenne together a lot of the time, but I found that when I kept them apart DeeDee was a different dog. Cheyenne was to strong and dominating to let DeeDee develop to what she could be. Also Cheyenne developed a huge dislike for DeeDee after DeeDee had her Vaccine reaction.

Lakota I let together with DeeDee and Cheyenne at different times most of the day. He was a strong enough nerved dog to handle Cheyenne and he enjoyed his silly fun play with DeeDee. His preference was to play with DeeDee more they were pals.

So I think you have to watch the dogs and see how things are working. I don't like hard and fast rules because I always feel there are dogs out there who don't read books and don't fit into one rule or the other.

I agree Val.

I too had fairly strict rules on when the dogs could be together, or out in the yard together, but that really was for Indy's protection. Max would get amped up and barrel into her and T-bone her

No. Well, yes, but not for the sake of limiting their interaction. My philosophy is that a new dog does not interrupt the lifestyle or interfere with the privileges of an existing dog. So, if Nikon and Coke have free reign of the house normally and I need to take a shower or run and errand, then the puppy (Pan) goes into an expen or kennel. Not because I'm worried about leaving him with the others, but because he's the puppy and has not yet earned the privilege of free reign. Likewise if the puppy has earned his 1/2 hour of supervised free reign, I don't put Coke and Nikon away just because the puppy is now out. In my household, getting "settled in" means getting used to living with other dogs.

Agree. I allow my dogs to play, but also spend individual time with each dog training and at times just hanging with me. You must spend the individual time with the dogs.

Of course most of use crates for puppies, fosters and new adoptees so that is a form of separation.

Oh sure, but I'm talking about beyond raising puppies and doing individual training and one-on-one time with dogs. I think those are no brainers that you need to do whether your dogs are the best of friends or mortal enemies. I've heard people say (to my face) that I might get better performance from my dogs (like on the SchH field or agility field) if I intentionally confine them and separate them from each other more or only allow an hour a day together. I guess I just don't agree, or don't care...

Oh I understand the kind of extreme separation you were talking about--I was just pointing out that most of us do the normal new dog separation thing. There are lots of people who never separate their dogs, even when first introducing a new dog, etc.

True, especially in Europe it seems crates are more rare when it comes to pets. I think both ways work. I choose to crate train puppies because of the type of training and travel we do. Being comfortable and happy in a crate is basically a requirement. At Schutzhund our rule is that dogs need to be secure in a crate while they are not working and no one likes it when dogs are constantly barking and sounding off at everything from their crate/vehicle. Coke can go months without being in a crate, and even though he was already crate trained when we got him (at 1.5 years), we still use a crate for a while because he needs to be in one when we travel. Also things can be busy and with regard to the dogs I need to pick my battles. I don't spend a lot of time training and proofing perfect house manners, I'd rather just use a crate or pen for safety with a puppy and generally once the dog is 2 years old they are reliable out in the house. But all of this has more to do with the dog being new or being a puppy than intentional separation from other dogs. My friend who takes care of my dogs when I can't take them on a longer trip often keeps 2 of my dogs in the same kennel and they rotate which dog has their own kennel. I just don't have any kennels large enough for two dogs (I have large crates indoors).

My dogs are free to be with each other 24/7. They are all crate trained, but I only use them when we have guests that aren't into dogs or when they need to be contained. They have all proven themselves to be crate free when we aren't home. None of my dogs are destructive or eat inappropriate items, crating them is not necessary w/ our daily routine.

I've also been told to crate for better performance, and I do after training sessions when Karlo is learning a new exercise so he can process it(usually put him up in the crate in the vehicle).
But I don't want a crazy crate spinner either...if he were contained for several hours I don't think his brain could deal with it!

Karlo is the only one I am training with/ settles fine in the crate in the vehicle, no reactive behavior or barking....I think if I crated him on a daily basis he would be much higher energy but that wouldn't necessarily carry over to his drives/training performance.

I definitely agree, i've never kept my dogs separated just for the sake of separating them. I'll work with them both one on one, and the pup gets crated when I can't keep an eye on her because she likes to find things to do if not kept busy.. but they get along beautifully with each other, they'll play for a bit and then both pass out somewhere in the room.. and both seem just as crazy about me as if they were "single" dogs.

I like the venn diagram comparison that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

I know this is about 3 months late, but I completely agree! I am a small dog owner myself, but I walk 3 German Shepherds who are not all from the same household. They seem to bond very well together (whew!) but are still very obedient to my commands. I could see where this issue would be of concern in general terms, or especially if training is lax at home, or even if there are just way too many dogs around. But generally speaking, I think it is great to witness the growing relationships of dogs amongst themselves.

June