I'm going round and round about this.

We keep talking about doing RAW, but just can't find the space to have a good freezer and our setup is not the best. But it might happen down the road.

Orijen and Acana...I've been feeling rather ambivilent about them lately. Between the price increases and availability issues...ehh not feeling it. Orijen is probably more expensive than feeding RAW now. And if I'm going to pay that much for dog food, then I might as well just suck it up and do RAW rather than anything processed.

So bring the suggestions on! Elsa gets Natural Balance and EVO Red (we just started adding the EVO back in after a break because I thught it might be causing an ear infection, but so far so good). I don't want to feed either to a puppy. I like the idea of a single-source protein for puppies, but I don't think the LID foods quite pull it off to feed if you don't have to. NB has been a god-send for Elsa, though.

Oh, and I'm trying to avoid chicken. Elsa is allergic to it and so many dogs have chicken issues I don't really want it in the house or to bother with it.

I fed Natural Balance to Havoc and it was recommended by the breeder if we did not do raw. I had him on the Venison and then switched to Duck and then Fish.

I have Cooper on Fromm puppy gold

I have finally decided to listen to my dog food guy and start baby puppies on limited ingredient diets (even with <gasp> grains) because it seems like when I do that, there are great results. He said it's similar to the idea that we don't feed babies a full Thanksgiving meal, but start with giving them one thing, then after a while, another.

I like to keep that calcium/phosphorus thing in mind, I try not to give a fancy protein, but do something like chicken/rice, lamb/rice. I have done the California Naturals and liked the way that worked a lot. Then I work into something like GO! Salmon/Oats or the Pinnacle foods with lesser ingredients, and then let them eat the bajillion ingredients in other foods as they hit 8-10 months.

With that, or actually now that I have learned from diarrhea, and then going backwards, then forwards, I have dogs that can rotate without issue every two months (KW).

I have Riva on Canidae Chicken and Rice. It's an all-life stages formula and it has the appropriate calcium and phosphorus levels. I prefer adult food over puppy formulas and her breeder also starts his puppies on adult food. In a few weeks I'll be changing to another protein and carb formula, haven't decided which one yet. I like to change protein and carb sources every 3-4 months as was recommended by Dr. Karen Becker at a food summit. She says that's a way to prevent food allergies from developing.

See, that was kind of my thought with those foods. They are just so "blah" as far as nutritional oompf. I just feel like dogfood as so much carp in it sometimes that an 8 week old puppy doesn't need and less can be more. Maybe I will just start off with and LID food and see how it goes. I've had SUCH good luck with NB. The foster I've had have all ended up on it eventually when other foods don't work out well. It is definitely not a 6 star food, but they do what they do darn well.

I think that this is an important article:
http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/adaptation_to_the_diet.html

This talks of very young pups, but I think the process is important as they age, much to what you allude to:

Age for Development of Oral Tolerance
Animals must be able to develop oral tolerance when they are weaned and begin eating new foods. It is unknown when a puppy or kitten has the maturity to develop oral tolerance. It is estimated that they must be older than six weeks. If new foods are consumed before that age, it is likely that oral tolerance will not develop. Feeding a new food to which an animal has no oral tolerance is likely to result in allergy to that food.

Lots more good stuff in that article by Strombeck.

I feed all my dogs an LID (California Natural, usually the Lamb and Rice). Nikon, Anna, and Pan were all switched to this as little puppies and did/are doing great. Nikon was weaned to Nature's Variety, Anna to Wellness Core, and Pan to Fromm Gold. In each case I got some of their food and switched over to Cal Nat.

I've wondered about the food being palatable and the dogs getting sick of it over time but of all the foods I've tried over the years everyone LOVES the Cal Nat LIDs. Pan will do obedience for it the same as a high value treat and Nikon used to get it on his tracks.

Sometimes I wonder about variety so occasionally I toss the dogs raw beef marrow bones, raw venison, raw eggs, and other table scraps but certainly not at the volume of actually feeding raw/homecooked. If I'm running low on kibble and trying to make it to a Sunday (when I see my friend who supplies me), I often feed the dogs meals of raw meat, raw eggs, cottage cheese, salmon oil, and random leftovers we probably won't eat but aren't necessarily bad yet.

All my dogs have been very healthy, no allergies or digestive problems. They have clean, healthy coats and eyes. Kenya and Coke have awesome poops on the LID, they are small and firm and basically break down within a day or two like raw poops. Nikon and Pan's aren't quite as firm but they are both still growing and eating a lot (Coke and Kenya only need 2 cups of food total each day).

I am still doing Orijen LBP but at some point would like to switch to a less expensive food, maybe even one I don't have to drive to another town to get. Even the adult Orijen is cheaper and it says it has about the same calcium levels as puppy. I also like the idea of the California Natural Lamb & Rice, not sure how the price compares. I am going to take a look at it. I know it is sold in the local "nicer" pet store.

I feed Pinnacle and add stuff the same way Lies does.

I switched Riva to Solid Gold Wolf Cub. She started to get a little itchy while on the chicken formula, so I looked for a much different protein source. She's doing great on it and really loves it. Not that she's been picky, she will eat anything. I broke my own rule of not using a puppy formula, but the Wolf King's protein and fat contents were too low for her age, IMO.

When Josie was a puppy i had her on Solid Gold Wolf Cub. That was what the breeder was feeding so i just stuck with it. She now eats grain free Canidae, she will be switching to single grain free canidae, alittle cheaper than the grain free one . Josie only stayed on puppy food til she was 6 months old though.

I have a question for those feed both NB and Cali Nat... I have always noticed that both of these foods are a lot lower in protein/fat content but know a few of the formulations have over 500kcals per cup... this confuses me and has never seemed to add up in terms of what one would expect when looking at a guaranteed analysis. Has anyone had issues with having pups or active dogs on these lower protein foods? Does anyone know what the kcal amounts are of the formulations they are feeding?

Thanks,
Cherri

Cherri, I don't have my puppy on Cal Natural Chicken and Rice but I've had Starine, my DM dog, on it for years and she has done wonderfully, especially in maintaining firm stools.

I do check the kcals on the foods I feed all of my dogs. Riva is now 7 months old and I have switched her to Canidae Beef and Fish in keeping up with my rotational diet. I like the Calcium (1.4) and Phosphorus (1.0) counts and it has 457 kcals per cup. That's the appr. amount I like to keep all of my dogs on.

Nope, never had any issues with them. They formulate them specifically that way to be easier on the gut, but still have good ingredients in them.

Elsa has been on straight NB off and on quite a bit before. She trains regularily pretty hard and has NEVER had issues on it with energy.

But I do think there are BETTER foods to feed dogs if you don't NEED an LID. If your dog DOES need a LID....they are wonderul.

I was just doing some more reading on the calcium thing:
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/large.html

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

I use the LID for the first months, usually going from CA Natural to Pinnacle and then on to grain frees.

Here is the CA Natural Herring: http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1326
Protein 21.065 %
Fat 11.677
Omega 3 1.587 %
Fiber 3.657 %
Calcium 0.999 %
419 kcal/cup (4.3 oz = 1 cup)
Herring
Barley
Oatmeal
Herring Meal
Herring Oil
Sunflower Oil
Sweet Potatoes

So not real meaty/proteiny but for a while...it seems to help them keep a nice steady growth, good stools, calm stomachs?

I now know why people get headaches looking for puppy food! I'm looking for a mid range food for my sister's new lab puppy. Single income so not top of the line and not bottom of the barrel. Any suggestions in the $40 range?

Well, I love those California Naturals foods for puppies - or the Pinnacle if the right calcium levels. I think they are in that range?

I posted a sticky on puppy food on .com

Part of it - probably will not format well. I used the article Lisa posted above too.
6. Consider not feeding a food with so many ingredients to very young puppies and introduce new ones over time, similar to feeding babies: Adaptation to the Diet (link is above)

7. Calcium information - note that they are not talking ratio but calcium number and are not talking protein amounts but keeping large puppies LEAN:
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%2...%20puppies.pdf

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

Large Breed Puppy Diet Recommendations Be sure to read it all as it talks about energy as well.
Quote:

1. Calcium: The ideal calcium content, on a dry weight basis is 0.7%-1.2%-. AAFCO recommendation is 1%-2.5% which is generally acceptable though not ideal; however, for giantbreeds, such as the Great Dane, the lower end of this range is especially recommended. It is believed that calcium in excess of 3% on a dry weight basis can predispose to significant skeletal abnormalities, such as those mentioned above. Keep in mind, also, that adding of vitamins, particularly Vitamin D, will also increase absorption of dietary calcium (to possibly excessive levels).

Sources of Vitamin D would likely include the sun?
Ester C also has calcium in it.
Check vitamins or supplements if you give them, for calcium.

Reviving this helpful thread. I searched and searched for a list of premium foods that list the foods by Calcium content, and I couldn't find one. So I chomped through the nutrient analysis of

a) the foods listed on http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/ From there:

Innova Dry Puppy Food has 1.07% Ca, and the adult Innova dry foods around 1.2%.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2287

Wellness Super5Mix Large Breed Puppy has "Calcium Not Less Than 1.0%
Calcium Not More Than 1.40%"
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2205

b) the Natura foods at the Natura page http://www.naturapet.com/ and found none of them in the recommended range of 0.7% to 1.2% Ca. They are around 2% and more.

Would anyone have comments, recommendations, experience with these foods? Thanks!

Found this helpful:

"Nutrition and Skeletal Health in Dogs – Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson Phillip W. Toll
http://www.joint-health-for-dogs.com/nutrition-dogs.html

Summary:
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Food_and_Nutrition/thread/663911

That's what I bought, Innova Large Breed Puppy, with 0.9% Ca:
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=2281&cat=all

Authors' credentials:
http://www.k-state.edu/media/mediaguide/bios/drichardsonbio.html
Veterinarian and nutrition specialist, his career mostly at Hill's Science Diet (hm). That is also where the co-author is acc. to his publications in veterinary journals.

I have fed Wellness a couple times. Or attempted to feed it. I've decided there is something that doesn't agree with GSD tummies in it. Or at least something that the GSD's that come through my house. I tried to give it to 2 fosters and Medo. All had the runs on it. Booo!

Wellness didn't work for Halo either. She did fabulous on Orijen LBP - figures, since it's so expensive!

I've tried the Wellness Core for my adult dogs and while they didn't get the runs, they had room clearing gas on it.

I may have used the one of the other Wellness formulas for Caleb when he was a puppy and he was generally OK on it.

(Isn't this helpful, Sarah - telling you things that didn't work? )

Johanna - Dante had room clearing gas on Wellness Core as well, I finally decided it was the 'taters

I've used other grain free kibbles that have 'taters in them without a problem. For my guys, I was suspecting flaxseed. If I stay away from that in the food, they don't have a problem.

I changed Riva's food again. She has been on Canidae Beef and Fish but has been itchy lately. I had planned on putting her on grain-free in a few months, but decided to do it now, in case it is allergies. She'll be 1 yo in a few weeks. (Although the itchies could be from dryness in the house since we've started the heat recently) Started the switch over to Wellness Core a few days ago. The calcium and phosphorous are not bad at all for grain-free. And do I still need to be concerned about that since she seems to have stopped growing, or if she still is, it's not very apparent.

Now I see the posts about Wellness Core and gas. So far no problems and no change in poop or anything else.

Hope the Wellness Core continues to agree with Riva.

Good luck with the Wellness Core - Tara's been on it and never had any gas issues.

hey,i just bought german sherpherd puppy..now he is around 2mth old,I heard those petshop says that dog poo shouldn't be soft..but I don't know why my puppy poo is soft,do anyone know why??

Hello Yean,

Can you tell us what you are feeding your pup?

I feed my pup dog food (biscuit) brand is Science Plan chicken flavour. But yesterday I soak the biscuit with water and let him eat,today his poo look better.
Should I continue do that for him?

I would encourage you to have the vet check out the soft stools (many things, including parasites can cause this, very common in pups), and look for a better food, that contains no corn, sorghum, or byproducts.

I'm feeding Orijen LBP...I think she may be eating better than I am on a student budget. Just bought a new bag, and thinking of switching to regular Orijen after this.

Zefra (and Stark) are raw fed.

Any new thoughts on this thread?

Thinking about getting a pup in a couple of months. Eventually I'm sure I will switch to a homeprepared diet, but until I get that put together and balanced, will want a good kibble, and may use it for training and other things - good to have a kibble that they can tolerate as a backup, travel, etc.

This will be a medium aized breed, probably...but the concepts are similar.

I like jean's idea of increasing tolerance by starting simple.

Lisa - I'm feeding Kaos California Natural Chicken and Rice (The adult version)
She's doing well on it and I'm happy with the simplicity of the ingredients.

I will probably move her to Nature's Logic down the road because I so love the idea of no synthetic vitamins

Thanks Barb, I had forgotten that about nature's logic.

I will have to wander to the feed store and see what kind of a selection they have nowadays.

My sister is adding an aussie pup in a couple of weeks. After her research she will be feeding Acana Pacifica.

She feeds raw at night and kibble in the morning, I believe.

Thanks Bonnie. I think we have those available here. Very hard to think I might be feeding a dog that can actually eat more than 1 or 2 proteins (knock wood). I don't know what that's like

(...But I miss it.)

Ah - an easy, healthy dog! I hope that is what you get, Lisa.

Both Pacifica and 6 Fish have fish as the only protein. It used to be grain free was not used for puppies, but this is changing.

My sister has two dogs that can't eat chicken and it makes since to sue something they can all eat.

Acana Pacifica is about $20 less per bag (here.) Makes it a good choice.

I also like this, stated upfront:

Q: 100 % CHINA-FREE – Do ACANA and ORIJEN dog and cat food formulas contain any ingredients from China?

A |


There are no ingredients from China used in the preparation of our dog and cat food formulas, including vitamins — we are 100% China-free.

Our production focus is on FRESH INGREDIENTS supplied regionally and all of our products are made exclusively within our own award-winning factory here in Alberta, Canada. And rest assured, our products are biologically appropriate, the way Mother Nature intended.

For more detailed information on the ingredients contained in our product lines, click on the Ingredients & Preservatives link.

I wonder where they are getting the vitamins from that are "China-Free" I'd like some for myself!!!

Lisa,

What "medium sized" breed might this new pup be??

LOL, as soon as I know, I will be sure to update here! I'm still wandering aimlessly a bit on this one

Barb -

You can email them and I am sure they will answer. They were the most forthcoming of any company I researched.

A friend who is working diligently on the chicken jerky treats issues also spent many hours on dog food sites. That led her to want to change her dog's food as well and she also chose Orijen in the end.

They are the only one that answered every question. Most just said it was "propriety" information.

Bonnie and barb, I didn't see your posts before - very curious about the non-china vitamins. Maybe we'll trip over that info somewhere.

Lisa;

This is the response from Orijen on the vitamins:

Thank you for your email.



All of our minerals are produced and sourced exclusively in Canada. Our vitamins come primarily from North America; if they are not available from North America we source from European producers. Vitamins sourced outside of North America come from Switzerland, Germany, and France and are produced in these countries exclusively. We do not source or use vitamins or minerals produced in any other countries.

Wow, thanks Bonnie! This is great info to have, very much appreciate you emailing them

I've been switching foods again. Tried TOTW lamb because I saw a bag on clearance cheap. That was a bad idea and did not last long since she became very itchy. So now Riva is on Canidae Pure Sky which is the grain-free duck and turkey meal formula. She has been doing great! We're almost finished with a 30 lb bag and no more itchies. I think we have found a winner!

I had tried Rainer on the Acana Pacifica but his stools were loose and he did not do well on it all. Maybe it was too high protein for him? He's been eating Fromm (surf n turf and beef frittata flavors) and has been doing extremely well. I believe it's around 29-30% protein, 0.9-1.0% Ca depending on the flavor and low ash and phosphorous

I had planned on TOTW puppy formula or Earthborn Holistic puppy formula for the first few months and then transition to adult food.

Both of those are grain free and readily available for me locally.

Could the Wrecking Crew be 3 again soon?

That's exciting - another new forum puppy.

I tried one of the Earthborn Holistic formulas for Aodhán and Caleb. Generally they did well on it. The only thing I found was that based on the claimed calories/cup for the food, I adjusted their meals accrdingly and found that they lost weight when I did that. It ended up that I needed to feed more to keep them where they were compared to what I fed when they were on Nature's Variety.

It's not a reason to not use the food, but may influence how much you have to feed and how fast you go through a bag.

Johanna I have had Havoc on and off Earthborn Holistic for 2.5 years. I switch him just to switch him about every 6 months. He had such bad poo til he was 2 that when I find food that works I stick with them and rotate. EH, TOTW, and NB grain free foods have been my staples.

So pretty much - my dogs eat what Havoc can tolerate as Kayos does not have issues that way and hopefull a new pup will not either.

Mayhem may be home one of these days.

We have not decided which litter yet but look for an announcement within 6 weeks or so.

Kathy -

Butch & Sundance are both raw fed puppies from the day they came home. Sundance was weaned to raw by his breeder (Lisa).

When we were still feeding dry kibble to the dogs I always just started them right off with adult food and 12 or so years ago I think I was feeding the dogs IAMs.

Havoc went straight to adult food too and I may do that with new pup as well. Have not really decided. I like the nice balanced calcium and phosphorous as well as protein level in TOTW and EH's grain free puppy food tho

How many cups per day do you guys feed out of curiosity? I have been slowly tweaking mine. It went from 2/3 a cup a day to 1 cup a day to 1.5 cups a day to 2.5 cups a day to 2 cups a day and now it's 2.25 cups a day. It's tough to figure out because he's been consistently skinny (which is a good thing) but sometimes I feel like he's not eating enough to get good muscle to support himself.

Kaos has been on 4 cups a day (2 cups per meal) for quite awhile now (she's 6 months now) of California Natural
Calorie Content
4092.0 kcal/kg
511.0 kcal/cup
So she's getting about 2000 calories a day

http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/1191

That's pretty comparable to Ciara. She's fed raw and get about 26 ounces of food per day. She gets between 1800 to 2000 calories per day.

Hope you don't mind a newbie chiming in. I am now feeding Honest Kitchen. Cara is such a sensitive dog, and Aetos was having diarrhea when he first got here. They both do well with this brand. The recalls also worry me. Cara was eating TOTW previously.

HK is a good food, I've thought of trying it here too, eventually. Pretty pricey for large dogs! I started Jazz here (all 13 pounds of her) on Pinnacle, grain free salmon. She didn't like it, and her ears and eyes started getting red. Currently I'm feeding Primal Beef. I haven't tried her on chicken yet, guess I'm waiting to see how she does on other things first, since there was some type of chicken product in the Science Diet that the shelter had her on.

ladyfreckles-How many calories is he getting a day?
That doesn't sound like a lot of food per day for his age, but depending on the calories it could be.

You're pretty active with him, seems that he should probably be in the 1800-2200 range