I've been doing some thinking lately and I'm just not sure if I would be able to find the dog I want (for my next dog) in the GSD breed.

I love the GSD, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure if it'd be a good match. I love the zippiness and flash of my mystery mix, Risa. I love her structure (though I wish she didn't have some back problems). I love her speed and intelligence. I also know Ris' history of GI issues drives me absolutely up the wall and GSDs are well-known for their GI problems too. Her fears and dog-reactivity are also huge issues and really make competing with her a problem (or, at the very least, a huge production).

I know there are plenty of high-drive, energetic GSDs out there. I know they're far more handler-driven than my independent hairball (which is good). It's just that most GSDs I see don't seem quite as speedy and driven as Risa can be. And I like that bit of intensity (read: craziness) underlying the work.

When looking for a dog, they often say to look for a breeder who breeds dogs that do the activities you like. The ones whose breeding program compliment what you're looking for. I don't know too many GSD breeders who concentrate on competing in musical freestyle. I do know some whose dogs have competed in agility. I know plenty who focus on Schutzhund which I really have no interest in doing (at this point in time).

I want to be honest with myself (and anyone else) about what I'm looking for. I don't want to have a bad match as that can be disastrous. Do you think it would be wise for me to consider a different breed or do you think I could find what I am looking for in a GSD?

Thanks.

FWIW, I am not trying to dis or belittle the GSD. I LOVE this breed but I'm trying to be honest about the potential shortcomings of choosing this breed and whether or not it would be a good match for me. Hopefully this doesn't get me kicked out. LOL.

I can think on more than one GSD that will completely fit you, but you are also right, they are not exactly the average of the breed. Yes, they are out there, but I don't feel like you HAVE to own a GSD for loyalty with us when there are indeed other breeds that are more like what you are looking for. I would seriously consider a Border Collie and maybe a Malinois. In both cases you will need to be extra careful to chose the breeder, because reactivity and extra sensibility may be a problem in both breeds. A BC from herding lines, as opposed to agility lines, would be my first choice.

I totally agree with that - the herding lines - and my personal preference would be the Border Collie because a Malinois would just make me sad I didn't get a GSD (no offense Rafi). I only have a BC mix and like what I have in her with the intelligence and just the way she does things. That eye! I mean, I have kind of given up on ever being a step ahead of Ava and she is diabolical.

IF you were to go with a GSD I would look for an adult that was already showing the zip and stability - thinking of us humans, it's hard to find people who are can be driven and not frantic at times, so amazing we can produce it with dogs! Plus with an adult you would know the GI stuff.

You should go hang out at the Glen Highland Farm. http://www.glenhighlandfarm.com/aboutghf.htm

Jean, I have browsed GHF's website more often than I should admit. Usually looking at their available dogs. Would LOVE to take Risa there for one of their camp things but I don't think she's the best type of dog for it.

It's possible Risa has border collie in her. The shelter had her listed as a BC mix and she occasionally does very border collie-like things:


I have always admired BCs but I'm not sure if one would be too much dog for me. I do love Malis but, again, worry they might be too crazed. I know BCs are also very quirky dogs. I do find myself looking more at Aussies, ACDs, and BCs when I (stupidly) browse Petfinder.

I also have no idea whether or not an adult or puppy would be best. An older dog is a more known quantity (especially if I go the rescue route). But Risa is less fearful of puppies. Either way, is going to be a lot of work for me. . .

Hmm, I don't think that a lot of working line GSD's would be any less speedy and driven than Risa. I personally think something like a Mal is not at all like Risa...I think they are way beyond her in the "OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" factor haha.

You can easily find females that are a lot smaller and agile in the 50-60 pound ranger.

Go to a SchH club and see the "intensity" those dogs have!

But, I also don't think that something like a BC would be a bad fit, either. Overall, they are a bit on the idependent sdie as well, right? At least, I think, compared to most GSD's.

Jamie,

You would love a Rafi {I can't believe you said that Jean!]. He would be fantastic in musical freestyle. He loves learning and he loves me above all else. He lives to work and play with me. He will ignore anything I ask him to ignore as long as I'm paying attention to him. His movement is beautiful. Honestly, he would be perfect for what you want (except for the kissing but you can train him out of that ;-)).

I am always watching the mal rescue site and see so many dogs coming through who sound exactly like him in personality.

Plus he's very photogenic.

Kicked out? Absolute NOT! You have been so helpful to us all.

GSDs are great but no matter how much we all try they don't fit every mold. That's part of the appeal of the GSD for me is that they can do everything. Are they the best at everything? Not always.

Jamie - to me, getting a dog is a personal choice (including what breed/bloodlines/rescue/breeder/adult/puppy/etc). You have to do what's right for YOU.

After reading your first post the first thing that popped to my mind is that you should look into BCs or Aussies. Sure a GSD could do it but a BC or Aussie might do it better.

I think (I hope) you were just kidding. Who else would have drawn such a super cool, priceless portrait of my crazy two (and understood when I said I wanted Kato to look a little more, errr, determined to kick Lexi's butt in the pic, lol).

Hopefully someone else will be able to give you some advice about choosing the proper breed for what you need. But don't you go anywhere...you're an asset to any doggy forum, regardless of breed.

I think there are GSD's out there that would meet your criteria. Not all GSD's have GI issues.

I would trade a little speed of the BC for the correct/accurateness of a GSD. If you watch some SchH video's I know that isn't your interest, but it will tell you a lot about the speed and accuracy of the GSD. As some one else posted you want in that 50-60 lb range. You might even look at a breeder mixing showline/workinglines. DeeDee is a mix of AM showline and working line, she is that 60 lb range, quick, agile, her draw back is the sound sensitivity problem (could have been vaccine reaction induced). She is smart and wants to please. She always had a cast iron gut until some problems with a med for her thunderstorm problems. Some GSD's are just quicker than others, DeeDee is quick but not as powerful as Cheyenne. Raya is very quick and very agile, she is in the 50-60 lb range.

Before DeeDee got really bad with her sound issues, my plan for her was agility. My trainer at that time said with DeeDee's speed if we worked on being clean and accurate we would be in the score range of the BC's.

I think BC's are as cute as can be, but not the dog for me.

It is hard after having a mix breed that we really like to decide on what we want for a purebred breed.

I fostered a GSD/Kelpie mix and he was very athletic, speedy, agile and had work ethic.
I would have kept him if he wasn't so reactive to my husband and son. He and I formed an incredible bond while I had him.
Too bad the Kelpies aren't more common in the US.

My friend has a GSD of eastern origins (part Chek I believe). She is quick as lightening and is much faster than Siena will ever be. Mia has great hips and a tum of steel. Recently diagnosed with EPI and on meds recovered quickly.

Okay I will do it......


KICk her to the curb ! (JUST KIDDING!!!!)


Jamie no matter what kind of dog you have you are one the best on the board! I would send you Havoc for a week and I think you would have your GSD that could do the things you want.

You might look also at Tervuren, they are not as hard wired as some Mals can be but they are a little smller than a GSD and very quick and agile. Would also consider a BC, Aussie or maybe even a Corgi. I would stick with the herders as they seem to be more interested in working with and for the handler than some other more independent breeds.

Honestly, I feel as you do about the GSD. I love them but I am sometimes frustrated by some of the issues I see and that I have had. I will eventually size down and I have considered these same breeds for myself.

My hubby has already pre-named our next female dog, she will be Mayhem. What we don't know is what breed she will be, may be a GSD maybe not.

I do have a friend who has an adult (18 month old) female GSD for sale. She is a female version of Havoc without the GI issues. She is for sale for a few reasons none of which have anything to do with breed worthiness or ability and I would take her in a heart beat if I were ready for another dog right now. Let me know if you want me to sned some info by PM.

I really am just kidding and trying to bring some levity, we would never kick you to the curb!

I wanted to come back and say you could find it in a GSD - with that obedience to boot.

Caja's Mom's male from Wolfstraum is very fast, I saw him doing flyball.

I would imagine any stretched back dog would be harder to get around in dance?

Jamie,
I just got in and seen this, and wanted to bring something up.

If it comes down to a BC or Aussie. You need to know, as many times people say the 2 breeds are alot alike, this is not true at all. The biggest difference is An Aussie is all about themselves, like "ok, I will do this for you, but what is in it for me" attitude. A BC is more about their people, and what can they do to please you.

Hi Jamie, Errow is from Lee, Wolfstraum Kennels. I know you met him before. I think you saw Fyurie too who is also doing flyball. He is bigger than Errow but he actually races so gets better times. There is future Wolfstraum puppy going to someone in Canada who plans on doing flyball too. Errow also does schutzund and has titled. Fyurie has done a bunch of other bite work. It is not very common for GSD's to do as well as ours have done in flyball. We get people at every tournament commenting on them. I have a really good BC person in Buffalo if you would like her name. She is into flyball but does a lot of disc dog and other things with her dogs. The tricks she has taught them is amazing! We will all be in Rochester in a few weeks, so you can come and check everything out.

i thnk if you looked and rearched hard enough you could find a working line gsd that would get you what you want (and dont want) in your next dog. but, honestly, the kind of dog you described came up Mali in my mind . if you had a Mali i dont think you would have time to think about couldve shouldve gotten a gsd

I came back on this thread to defend the much maligned malinois and to think of some other clever alliterations but really I wanted to say this:

If it were me I would figure out what size do I wanted (that makes a bigger and bigger difference to me and is the reason I have a Rafi right now) and what else really mattered. Then I would look for a mix (and I tend to go for the ones with an obvious breed in them) who had the right temperament and drive for what I wanted to do. For freestyle I would probably look for a bc or mali mix with a solid temperament, joy and play drive. Or a smaller gsd mix. Maybe a gsd x bc?

But I am the odd ball out here as I've only had one pb dog in 23 years and have been so happy and impressed with the mixes I've shared my life with. I could have trained Chama to do anything (she loved to perform in front of crowds!) and Rafi is the same way (different motivation).

I'd think what you're hesitant about with the GSD is their more deliberate approach to tasks.

Have you considered an Aussie?

Just an out there thought,are Koolies available over there? I've met a few and they are amazing dogs and seem to have few genetic health issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Coolies

Or.....I could lend you Molly to trial, she is 55 pounds and with a great handler like you, I think the sky would be the limit!!!

As for getting kicked out, my goodness If I'm allowed to stay and I know Jack, well Jamie, you aren't allowed to leave...EVER!

Personally I would take an ACD anyday over a BC. I think you could find what you want in a GSD but also a Malinois.

What about dutchies?

I also think that size is a big consideration here for what you want to do AND your lifestyle.

Life with a Risa or an Indy is very different than life with a GSD. It's just different.

I will say that, when Max was younger, he was FAST, and could maneuver as quick as Indy (probably not as a very young Indy though). He was a combination of speed and power.

Sheltie? Probably not.

I think you could find what your looking for in a gsd as well.

And wanted to add to what Tammy said, I have two aussies, female is 11, male is 10...They are great for 'comic relief', I got my female to do agility, and we did it for awhile, but as tammy said,,with my aussies anyhow,,I find them to be "what's in it for me?" while my gsd's have always been "what can I do for YOU?"

I see the "what can I do for you?" in alot of border collies as well tho they are a whole nuther ball of wax compared to the gsd's..

Just that pic you posted of Risa, definately reminds me of the "border stare":)

I want a Koolie!!!! It sounds like all the good of the BC without their quirks

This is exactly what I needed, an open discourse. Thank you all for your outstanding input.

I certainly have no plans on leaving the board and I know no one would kick me out for not owning a GSD (I was only joking). After all, I have known many of you for a LONG time (I was a member of the .com board for 9 years) and I have made plenty of amazing friends. Not to mention I'm not the only board member without a GSD. I just didn't want to get in trouble for some of my comments about the 'bad things' regarding GSDs. You like me. You really like me!!

Okay, now back on topic and done with my foolishness.

While it is true that not all GSDs have GI issues, it's not just the upset tummies that worry me. It's structural issues like HD and ED and to a lesser extent spinal issues. Then there are harder to pinpoint concerns like DM. I just know that GSDs have a very high incidence of genetic diseases and I'm not sure I am comfortable taking the risk. Though most of the GSDs I know are fairly healthy, it is something to keep in mind whenever researching a purebred dog (I also know that no dog is free of any genetic issues purebred or mix).

What I don't want to do is find a dog that's going to be a poor match for me. One that's not going to be able to do what I would like to do. I actually have a dog like that right now. As much as I love her, there are a lot of things about Risa I don't particularly like. Her independence, GI problems, and fears being the main things. They are things I can deal with even if I don't like them. But since I want(ed) a competition dog, I need to have a confident dog. It's frustrating and difficult to try and manage things to keep the Wuss Dog happy. I wouldn't trade her for the world but there are things I'm trying to change to make both of our lives easier. Some of them cannot be fixed.

Since she's a mix, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what characteristics she has and where they may have come from. Making it even harder to figure out what type of dog I might like as well. While I like a dog with a little bit of edge and craziness, I am not sure I want a zany crazy dog that can't settle and requires more attention than I have time to give. A friend of mine has two high-drive dogs (a BC mix and an ACD mix) and she does a lot more with them to keep them sane than I do with Ris. Risa is active and a bit crazy but she's not quite as intense as they are. If I'm ready to go, so is Risa. But if I'm not, she's content to lounge on the couch (though not forever).

Size isn't a huge issue. I do like the size of Risa but am okay with a bit larger. I do not want an overly large dog. Eighty pounds might be the top of my range but even then I'd prefer a lot less.

My other concern with a GSD as a freestyle dog is their length. I've seen several freestyle GSDs (and GSDs doing rally) that seem to really struggle moving their hind end around. Especially when doing left pivots and other tight moves. I understand this could be a training issue more than a conformational one but I can only go on what I see.

The herding breeds I have always considered are GSDs, BCs, ACDs, Aussies, corgis and to a lesser extent Malis. (I like Dutchies too but they're fairly rare.) They're active, tractable, fast, and intelligent. I worry with BCs, ACDs, and/or Malis that they might be too much dog for me. I also don't like a dog with too much coat so showline Aussies or BCs would be out for me. I'm not against getting another mix should the right dog show up; purebred is not required.

I'm not decided on whether I would take the breeder route or the rescue route. In all honesty, I'm fine with either as long as I get a workable dog. I am just concerned that finding a dog with my criteria would be difficult if I limited myself to just GSDs. This is probably even tougher for me to wrap my head around because I only have experience with ONE dog, not many. Though trying to find out what I wanted when I had no dog at all was near impossible. At least now I have some idea!

Thanks everyone for your input thus far. It's been very enlightening and helpful. Any other advice is also appreciated.

There are a ton of things to think about so I will add some more to your list.

Imprinting. This is something that I think many people don't consider. I noticed the difference in two of my pups, both I got a 16 weeks. One was well on the way to having a nice OB foundation, solid as a rock temperament, the other was a wild child, jumpy skiddish. One pup raised with family and kids, one was in a kennel. There is the Nature verses Nurture debate. I think both play a big role, can a dog with solid nerve excel even if the Nurture wasn't there, you bet. Can a dog with lesser or soft nerves and bad nurture excel Maybe but the time spent over coming the bad nurture is not fun and I think if enough pressure is applied the dog will revert to it's genetics. With proper nurture you can help the lesser or soft nerved pup, but the earlier the better.

I think another thing that people don't understand is the value of balance in a dog. By balance I mean that drives and nerve are balanced. To much drive on a dog with a little softer nerve can be a dog that is bouncing off the walls, to much drive and not enough nerve to cap those drives. These dogs are usually hectic which people read as over the top energy, they are hectic because they don't have enough nerve to calm down.

Just a few more things to think about.

"You like me. You really like me!!"

Yes we do!!!!

I think you are being very smart in looking at all your needs and wants before committing to any breed or dog.

I definitely think you could find what you're looking for in a GSD. Halo would be a terrific freestyle dog! Great work ethic, (she LOVES training and is very easy to motivate with food or toys), confident as crap, nice compact size (just under 60 pounds, and not overly long), she's fast, fast, FAST, and extremely agile and athletic. She's a WGWL girl.

I really need to get her into something soon, still trying to decide what I want to do with her!

I think whatever breed of dog you choose, working with Risa has given you the tools to make the right decision for your needs. Knowing what traits you desire, as well as what you do not, gives a good basis for selecting the breeds you should consider, however even selecting a breed is not the end of the story. I look forward to seeing which dog you do choose and then be amazed at the progress you make. Sorry, I'm no help in aiding your choices just offering a kudos in advance.

Val, you bring up one of my other concerns too. Both nature and nurture play a huge role in a dog's development and the potential that they can reach. That's why I'm unsure whether to get an adult dog or a puppy. Risa is less afraid of puppies and I would like the opportunity to make my own choices rearing a pup. However, I've never raised a puppy before and I would have to work extra hard to make sure Risa doesn't teach the pup her bad habits/fears. A young dog would be a bit more difficult to introduce and I would potentially have to deal with mistakes someone else made with him. But if he were a confident dog, it would be no time at all before he could help teach Risa that the world is less scary.

I will admit, I like a smaller GSD. Unfortunately, I think I would be really hard-pressed to find a 60 lb male shepherd (that wasn't being starved to death). Without looking at the standard, I'm pretty sure that weight would be outside of it.

I have some time to think about what I want. Definitely NOT the time to add another dog to the family right now. Thanks for the continued input, everyone.

We have no real idea of what he is but what a little nut- he is great.
http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/AvailableDogsMale.html

There are so many of these types of dogs available that when the time comes to seriously start looking, no matter which way you go, you'll find your match.

And I was reading that Glen Highland Farm site (I should never link to that because I am glued to it) and what they said about BC mixes, really hit me. Of course it matters what the mix is.

ETA - oooh, sorry about the size, on the website it's little....

I saw him on the BDBH site the other day, Jean! He is so adorable!! Looks like GSD/Corgi to me.

If I were actively looking, I would definitely consider him. Too bad he probably won't be around when I am ready. Someone will probably snatch him up quickly.

Jamie, I feel that no pup should be around an older dog 24/7. I raised my pups with minimal older dog contact until they were 6 - 9 months. My vet has commented that for a multiple dog house my dogs all have very distinctive personalities. I feel part of that is raising them without the interference of an older dog, they developed to be their own dog and not part of a pack. They did get some play time with the older dog so that they weren't totally isolated.

Lakota grew up just fine even though DeeDee is his buddy and we all know that DeeDee has her fair share of issues. Lakota will get upset because he can't help DeeDee with her problems and goes into this barking patter which pretty much means "Mom get you butt here NOW, DeeDee needs you, I can't help her". DeeDee did help rehab Lakota on his ACL surgery. He wanted to keep babying that leg after 6 months, but DeeDee got him moving and using that leg, getting him to chase her, becuase she teased and tormented the poor boy into running and playing hard.

You just have to find the balance, know when to have them together and when to have them apart.

I think key here to the next dog not picking up Risa's habits is picking a strong independent personality. Morgan had a paw in raising Otto, teaching him house behavior but he did all his street work and training alone, usually with just me.

Otto is his own dog but he's still Morgan's red headed step child, bows before to her when he's wrong but he's also the strong independent dog who at barely 1 year old gave her the scar over her eye for beating him for no reason.

Moonie is very maternal, but she's like Mommy Dearest. She was a complete flake when she was young, still has dog aggression at 9 1/2y/o, flips out at random people who get any where near the car when she's in it, barks at people walking down our street, has half the mailcarriers terrified of her... Otto hasn't picked any of her bad habits - becuase he is his own dog.

I can't believe you're talking about other dogs on a GSD forum...seriously?

I AM TOTALLY KIDDING!!! We love you and I'm so excited about the thought of you getting some sort of dog/pup no matter what it is!! I actually squealed...EEEEE!!!

My suggestions:

1. Corgi. GSD in a small boddy, quick, great at freestyle type activities and keeps you on your toes. I love my sister's corgi!

2. A GSD mix. Best of both worlds...or three worlds or whatever it's made up of! There are so many great mix dogs out there!

3. The dog Jean posted that is a combo of my 1&2, a corgi-shepherd mix!!!

How exciting!!

Don't get too excited, Tiffany.

1) I've contemplated adding another dog to the family for more than 4 years now.
2) I need a JOB first.
3) I need somewhere to LIVE first.

So it's going to be a while (unless a miracle happens) before I can even consider adding a second dog.

I definitely plan on having one-on-one time with both dogs. I know it's important for puppies especially to bond more with the human member of the family than the dog. Even more important when you're looking for a competition dog. However, I don't want to have to crate/rotate if at all possible and I want Risa to have a friend to enjoy the company of. (I'm not a very good playmate though I try, LOL!) With her issues, it is going to take a lot of work. But I think it could work out alright. I hope!

Y'know. . .when the stars finally align. *Sigh*

Just remember you can get puppy fix at any time after May 2011 by taking the future Little Poo Landshark. Seeeeeeeeeee...it will be beneficial for YOU....get Risa used to another puppy. Hehehe (<---evil laugh, though I'm not sure why!)

Jamie, you know what you're ready so I'm not trying to push you or anything. However, having a puppy was really really good for Morgan. (not that she's not still a whack job)

To follow Jenn's post, Indy was definitely not one to have another dog around - even all her vets agreed on this. However, she did great with Max from Day 1. It helped that she always was intrigued by the GSDs at training I think.

Sometimes, they will surprise you, pleasantly

Well if it helped Indy by being intrigued about particular breeds then Risa should be fine. Her first best friend was a corgi, she's met a ton of GSDs that she enjoys the company of, and she has met several border collies she likes too. Pretty much any breed I have an affinity for she seems to like as well.

She's such a great partner

Jamie, I do think you can find what you want in a GSD (cough- Keyzah who; Jethro and Rayne are not as zany as Risa???). But I also think you can find what you want in many of the herding breeds, especially Border Collie. People always state how oever the top they CAN be but there are a good many that are not and with they dedication to show with training, exercising and stimulating Risa I think you can live with most well bred Border Collies.

BTW I limited my comments to the other breed I have a decent amount of experience with. Ya know I love a lot of the herding breeds but I have been around a decent amount of BC's and some Aussies. I am not sure what it is but I tend to be drawn more to the BC. I never has been able to figure out for sure why.

Saw this and thought of you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbpf6Mk047c&feature=related

This one too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp_uEgaPDQo&feature=related

The first Mali in the videos you posted, Elisabeth, reminded me a bit of Risa when she is a bit too hyped when we're working.

I was watching a show last night that featured some nice workingline GSDs on it (border patrol dogs and K-9 cops). I really liked their structure; not as long-stifled as I've often seen. I guess I haven't quite given up on a GSD as a possibility but I still wonder if my desires are too picky to be found easily.

This is the closest we have done to freestyle with Diabla, I know she could do good at it.

truquitos Diabla

I think Diabla would be quite good as a freestyle dog. She is definitely very snappy and flashy.

I've been doing some more thinking lately which is probably stupid as I'm still not any closer to being able to add another dog to the family.

The main thing I think I've decided on is that I'm not getting a puppy. Risa is now 7 years old. While she's in pretty good condition, I don't know how long she'll be able to actively compete. (Plus she tends to get stressed in competitive venues and I'm not sure how long we'll actively compete because of that.) A pup might not be ready to go until he's 2 years old when Risa would be at least 9 years old. Not to mention, as she ages, she's going to be less tolerant of a young dog.

Along with that, I think it might be better to get a 'known quantity' dog with Risa's issues. A dog I know will match well with her personality quirks. Plus, after our recent outing with Elsa and Medo, I realized that age doesn't really matter to Risa. She was far more comfortable with Elsa (who she's met several times) than Medo (who is a young pup that Risa hadn't met before). No matter what age the dog I add is, I will have to take a long time introducing them.

I also think I may have decided what breed (mix) I might like. I am leaning towards an Australian cattle dog. I like their size, energy level, and looks. Not to mention one of Risa's best friends is a cattle dog mix (and I often think she has some ACD in her too). I think it might be a good match for us.

I will also admit I like the idea of another lurcher but doubt I'd have much luck finding one. Plus, there's that whole independent streak that I'm not a huge fan of.

An ACD is on my "someday" list. They seem like really cool dogs and are abundant in rescue. I've met a few that were kind of edgy and prone to scrapping with other dogs, but others who were not that way.

I did want to give a little love in the BC direction. We have a BC or mostly BC and she's an extremely easy dog. She has energy to spare if you want it but is happy to chill out and be mellow if that's what's going on. At age 9-10, she is as structurally sound, agile, and athletic as she was when we got her from the shelter 8 years ago. She's an easy keeper too - requires very little food and has a stomach like a tin can when she occasionally gets into something she shouldn't. She loves everyone, man or beast (of any size), and is a dog we can trust to take out in any situation. While I have met GSDs with these qualities, finding one with ALL of these qualities, particularly the structure at age 10, isn't common.

She is very very easy to train. Sometimes I complain that she's too easy. It's like steering something with incredibly precise handling. She notes everything she's doing, so if you click that, the next time you'll often get not only the sit or whatever but also the eyebrow lift and head tilt. She loves to perform and is highly food and pack motivated.

I know BCs have a rep as being quirky and super high energy, and of course many of them are, but I have fostered a lot of them, and, like GSDs, they are common enough that they exist across an incredibly wide spectrum. I think you could definitely find what you wanted in a BC or BC mix, but of course the same goes for and ACD or ACD mix. In both cases they abound in rescue, at least around here.

The BC is high on my list too. I don't know whether I will end up with a purebred or a mix. But it does look like I'm going the rescue route again.

Well....if you're going the rescue route North American Dutch Shepherd rescue usually has a few good dogs, unfortunately they're not that rare especially in rescue...some pretty irresponsible "breeders" in California...a few in CT. Two came out of the Hudson River Valley Humane society....Sasha was one...a year after a gorgeous male was rescued. A few pulled out of Ohio shelters too.

Course.....Malis and Dutchies would be MY preference. Sashi would be a GREAT at freestyle. Learns SO quick and SUPER eager to please.

I think my next dog will be a Corgi though.

I would second that rescue - they get some really fabulous dogs in there! Having owned a Dutch Shepherd and now owning a Corgi and a GSD, I think you would be fine with any of the three for what you are looking for. Going the rescue route will be trickier but doable I think.

My DS was FAST, smart and more than willing, in fact he was constantly pushing me to teach him more. His athleticism and grace were two of my favorite things about him. He was exctremely observant and could learn a trick with only a few repetitions. Offered behaviors off the cuff that made him a joy to teach. Physically, he was perfect. Serious, serious nerve issues. Serious.

Now, my GSD puppy - everyone warned me not to expect him to be like Madix. To accept that GSD pups are not DS pups etc etc. I went in with that mentality and now, at 5.5 months old, he is so much like a Dutch Shepherd but with the stable temperament I only dreamed of with Madix. He is awesome. He is super agile, loves to leap, jump, bound. He is very smart, demanding, loves to learn. He is honestly so much like Madix but with the nerve I hoped for that I sometimes wonder how I got so lucky. I am doing flyball, agility and SchH with him and he is exceling in all of them. Cannot emphasize enough how much he moves like a DS. LOVE it. So, you can get what you want in a GSD I think if you try the right avenues.

My Corgi is a big goober. Smart, loves to learn, a bit manipulative though. Not as graceful but wicked fast when she wants to be. Struggles to remember that her hind end is a long way behind her LOL Also doing agility, flyball, tracking, rally, obedience etc etc with her.

From what I have read, in some of the previous posts it really doesn't sound to me like an ACD would be a good match. They can be pretty "hard headed" and of all the ones I've known, there isn't even one that I could imagine doing musical freestyle. (I'm not "hating"on ACDs I love the bred personally and will have another.)

But I CAN imagine a lot of Aussies and BCs doing it. And not all BCs are "off the wall". The BC I had was a REALLY easy pup/dog to be around. He was just as happy being outside all day as he was chilling on the couch all day.

I'm leaning less towards an ACD (though a mix might be suitable). And definitely leaning farther away from the GSD. There's just too much I'm seeing in the breed that I don't like. (I hate to say it because they are wonderful dogs.) I just think, with the specific traits I'm looking for, I'd be hard-pressed to find it in a GSD. Not that it would be impossible, just highly unlikely.

Right now, I'm focusing more on a BC or Aussie (or mix). Possibly a Mali or a Dutchie though they'd be a bit more difficult to find. Overall, my second dog is a distant future since there's no way I can add one now!

You know what I'm voting for...and there are quite a few really nice ones in rescue...

I've had mixes that were pretty zippy and pretty willing (one male, one female), I've had purebred GSDs that were incredibly zippy including the one I have now. These four (out of the nine companions) - any of them would have done anything I wanted. Two of the nine had "norther attitudes" and the other three would do what I wished but were not zippy. In my experience, many more females are zippy than males.

There are a range of body types in Schutzhund GSDs - I have a smaller female right now. Purely zippy. Great focus, great drive but not nuts. But my "requirement" was that she be able to compete in the obedience portion of schutzhund -- If she hadn't, we'd have done something else.

I think it is a lot harder to find what it is you think you want when you are sure you know exactly what you want. What I'm saying is that if you are after your ideal dog and the dog has to do x y & z, I guess you are really after a fully grown dog because when you get a puppy - well, you get a puppy.

You can have the most ideal seeming breeding & discover, for instance, the dog hates the intended activity when it grows up. Or the dog loves it & guess what? you hate it...

I say puppies are a crap shoot, my female Raya is out of two Sch3 parents, you would think she would be suited for SchH. Nope all she want to do is play and be silly. That's ok with me because I am really enjoying her silliness right now, she makes me smile many times during the day.

I can't give you any advice I haven't meet that many ACD's and the one's I have meet I wouldn't give you a plug nickle for. They were very dog reactive.

I'm not married to any specific activity, really. There are activities I like to do and would, ideally, pursue with the next dog. But it's ultimately the dog's decision as far as I'm concerned. We don't do activities that we don't like to do together. Risa and I will never do competition obedience for several reasons. Mainly because it would set her up to fail (and potentially ruin her love of trialing) but also because I don't find it interesting at all. I love canine freestyle and so does Risa. We enjoy rally and Risa thinks lure coursing is the best activity ever. I'd love to do agility with her but, since we can't find classes and I'm not sure she could handle the trial environment for it, it may just be a dream for my next dog.

No mistake, there are some things I am looking for specifically. But I'm also willing to take what I can get. Ris is not exactly what I was looking for. We tend to butt heads on occasion as she's a bit more independent than my ideal canine companion. But we still manage to mesh just fine. Had I known she was a sighthound mix from the beginning, I probably wouldn't have even looked at her. So I'm definitely open to other options and potential breed mixes I hadn't considered before. You never know what you're going to get in a mutt anyway.

Yes, I am considering an older dog; not a puppy. With Risa's age and waning tolerance for some things from other dogs, I think this is my best bet. So a dog right around 2 years of age is my goal.

I love Risa's speed, her agility, her athleticism, and her zaniness. I like a goofy dog. I like dogs with prey drive (though not over-the-top and they need to have an off switch). I love a dog who's just itching to figure out what it is you want; one who loves training. A creative dog is great too as they're just so easy to train. Even if they sometimes utilize their creativity at the wrong time. You gotta love the ingenuity of it.

I'm just afraid to get in over my head. I thought I knew what I wanted when I got Risa. I was wrong but fortunate enough to get a dog I could still work with and one who taught me so much. There are many things I deal with with Risa that I would rather not have to worry about with the next dog. I'm still not sure I know exactly what I want in a dog. Just a general concept. With more dog-owning experience, I might eventually have a better idea.

I got in over my head with Havoc and never realized it! I am startign SchH at 4 with him as it is better fit for him. I had never been interested in that sport before.

I think we grow with our dogs and you grew with Risa. I think you have the skills you need for a drivy working line GSD if you want one. I never wanted one before and now I do.

I think whatever dog or breed you chose you will suceed with. I can't wait to meet the new kid!

LOL. I hope so. I certainly am glad I got Risa even when she tries my patience and forces me to get out of my comfort zone and keep learning. It's all her fault I am now a dog training nerd.

It's probably going to be a while before I add another dog. Hopefully not too much longer. I don't want a huge age gap between the two of them.

Based on what you want I think size is a definite concern. I tried some freestyle and Frisbee dog stuff with Nikon and part of the problem is that when he does get all amped up and crazy he is just too big for some of it and will hurt himself or me. I have to keep my dogs *very* dialed in for flyball and agility. Normally I like things full speed and full drive from the beginning but with these two activities there are real safety concerns and I don't encourage the speed, power, and drive until the dog has a very clear understanding of each exercise and can do it safely. For example for flyball teaching the swimmer's turn people with little dogs literally have them bounce off the wall. Nikon can and will do it off a wall but doing that repeatedly is too much for him and too much for the wall! Our instructor has to give me separate drills because she is used to mini-aussies, smaller BCs, small terriers. I had to build some of my own equipment that I know is safe for my dogs. With both Pan and Nikon I chose or was placed the smallest males in their litters and I've still got two 70-75lb dogs. Some days it would be so much easier with a BC or small Mal.

The one thing that always draws me back to the shepherds and what I see in Nikon and love is that everything he does is deliberate. By that I mean his drive is not the neurotic type where you flip a toy with your wrist and he does a backflip. All that stuff is cool to me but at the end of the day I prefer a very clear-headed, thinking dog. Nikon takes all forms of training very seriously, even learning silly pet tricks for food treats. I also really love this about him. He is a fast learner and easy to train, where as Pan doesn't have a serious hair on his body and is very fast speed-wise and has more drive but takes longer to train because he can just get crazy-stupid in drive. When I'm working with Nikon I can see him really trying to put things together in his mind, anticipate the next step, consider the rewards and the consequences. This suits me well as I do not like to train by luring.